CR4® - The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion®


Previous in Forum: Transparency   Next in Forum: Caption This
Close
Close
Close
17 comments
Power-User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Troy, NY
Posts: 121
Good Answers: 4

LED Lighting

12/29/2017 1:59 PM

I've noticed a lot more holiday light displays this year and I contribute it to more LED lights available on the market at a less expensive price. I just saw this article that is sort of related and begs the question are we consuming more or less energy due to the switch over to LED lighting?

https://www.treehugger.com/energy-efficiency/are-we-using-less-energy-because-led-lighting-or-more.html

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Commissariat de Police, Nouvions, occupied France, 1942.
Posts: 2535
Good Answers: 76
#1

Re: LED Lighting

12/29/2017 2:24 PM

That depends on who “we” refers to, Mildred, and you’ve made no attempt to define it.

It also depends on what you are measuring. After all, it could be kWh at the electricity meter, or the drop in level of the fuel tanks in the vehicles involved in getting the stuff shipped to and from the market, or the kWh of the market building and over what period, or it might be the kWh involved in mining the materials and fabricating them. You also need to be comparing it with something that you haven’t stated. Candles? Filament bulbs?

__________________
Good moaning!
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Troy, NY
Posts: 121
Good Answers: 4
#2
In reply to #1

Re: LED Lighting

12/29/2017 2:29 PM

Let's say the entire earth for argument's sake.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 19798
Good Answers: 358
#3
In reply to #2

Re: LED Lighting

12/29/2017 2:34 PM

INFIDEL!

__________________
phoenix911
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Commissariat de Police, Nouvions, occupied France, 1942.
Posts: 2535
Good Answers: 76
#4
In reply to #2

Re: LED Lighting

12/29/2017 2:35 PM

Well there are a number of ways of looking at global energy consumption. It would be the devil’s own job of identifying what fraction is attributable to this particular feature. Is one to compare it with Diwali?

__________________
Good moaning!
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Commissariat de Police, Nouvions, occupied France, 1942.
Posts: 2535
Good Answers: 76
#5

Re: LED Lighting

12/29/2017 2:40 PM

It might be attributable to a new prescription in your glasses.

__________________
Good moaning!
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
CR4 Admins - CR4 Moderator - CR4 Moderator United States - Member - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Technical Fields - Education - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 871
Good Answers: 15
#6

Re: LED Lighting

12/29/2017 2:57 PM

Probably depends on electric rates as well as the cost of the LEDs themselves.

Another thought: Thanksgiving was early this year. Maybe more people got out earlier to install displays.

And maybe more people craved that extra bit of light this year. After years of saying I'd put up lights and not doing it, I took the time over Thanksgiving and got it done. No LEDs, but I have a very modest display.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 40722
Good Answers: 1606
#7

Re: LED Lighting

12/29/2017 3:16 PM

Per the study you cite "The efficiency of LEDs is essentially what makes them environmentally friendly,” said Jamie Fox, principal analyst, lighting and LEDs group, IHS Markit.

I say LED lighting is, without a doubt, a major contributor to greatly increased light pollution. I guess it depends on which side of the environmental fence you are.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 19798
Good Answers: 358
#8
In reply to #7

Re: LED Lighting

12/29/2017 3:19 PM

Yes, it comes down to that its all about compromise.

__________________
phoenix911
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC metropolitan area.
Posts: 3105
Good Answers: 429
#9

Re: LED Lighting

12/30/2017 9:21 AM

Consider the source, "TreeHugger.com" The article is terribly flawed, making many unsupported assumptions and drawing conclusions based on them. Somehow I keep thinking "Luddite" after reading it a few times while trying to find any useful references/data.

__________________
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” Ben Franklin.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 40722
Good Answers: 1606
#10
In reply to #9

Re: LED Lighting

12/30/2017 11:53 AM

Please! I can't believe that anyone here has such a backward opinion of reality. (OK, there are SOME here who will agree with you)

I did not base my statement on the Tree Hugger article.

Energy-saving LEDs boost light pollution worldwide - Phys.org

Switching to LED lighting to save energy has created a new problem ...

The Lost LED Revolution: Light Pollution Is Increasing - Sky & Telescope

LED Bulbs Are Making Light Pollution Much Worse - Latest Stories

light pollution effects on humans

what are the negative effects of light pollution

examples of light pollution

clutter light pollution

how to fix light pollution

why is light pollution a problem

why is light pollution bad

light pollution essay

I'd be interested to see any publications that refute these.

No, the Luddites are now running the federal government!

Coal oil may come back into vogue soon.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC metropolitan area.
Posts: 3105
Good Answers: 429
#11
In reply to #10

Re: LED Lighting

12/30/2017 1:26 PM

Hey Lyn, my comments were not aimed at your comments, just the original posting! Handling all the variables in this argument would take more cells than Excel can handle, and would make a great PhD dissertation.

__________________
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” Ben Franklin.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 40722
Good Answers: 1606
#12
In reply to #11

Re: LED Lighting

12/30/2017 1:44 PM

Sorry if I overreacted but, while the savings of LED lighting is very attractive, over the long haul, that same attractiveness has led to over use of the technology which contributes to light pollution.

Doctors issue warning about too-bright LED streetlights | FOX 61

And, let's face the fact that unbiased, factual "news" is all but extinct.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster #1
#13
In reply to #12

Re: LED Lighting

12/30/2017 7:29 PM

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Posts: 3984
Good Answers: 122
#16
In reply to #10

Re: LED Lighting

01/01/2018 6:35 AM

OP was talking about energy consumption (and cost). Light pollution is something else. If a bulb is more efficient, at least you get more light pollution for your buck!

__________________
Give masochists a fair crack of the whip
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 40722
Good Answers: 1606
#14

Re: LED Lighting

12/31/2017 12:16 PM

The table represents a GENERAL comparison of three most common types of bulbs.

Approximate cost per bulb$1$2$8 or less
Average lifespan1,200 hours8,000 hours25,000 hours
Watts used60W14W10W
No. of bulbs needed for 25,000 hours of use2131
Total purchase price of bulbs over 23 years$21$6$8
Total cost of electricity used (25,000 hours at $0.12 per kWh)$180$42$30

Total operational cost over 23 years

$201

$48

$38

Below are some satellite photos showing the increase in light coming from the earth's surface. How much of this is caused by LED lighting is impossible to determine.

nps.gov576 × 399Search by image

It's also impossible to determine worldwide usage vs energy consumption of LEDs only.

Interestingly, Iceland uses the most electricity per capita of any country in the world, and the US is ranked 10th.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6989
Good Answers: 241
#17
In reply to #14

Re: LED Lighting

01/03/2018 4:32 AM

"... How much of this is caused by LED lighting is impossible to determine....''

Perhaps you are willing to provide a proof or perhaps a good link supporting your claim of impossibility.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6989
Good Answers: 241
#15

Re: LED Lighting

12/31/2017 12:22 PM

"... are we consuming more or less energy due to the switch over to LED lighting? ..."

The odds are in favor of consuming more energy even though LED lights are typically relatively efficient.

People don't always (or necessarily even often) throw out their old set of lights when they have purchaced new lights. Many households go full lumens to the wall for celebrations, bringing every available string and bulb into the mix.

The populations is growing. Additionally the number of people gaining wealth enough to afford more than the basics is growing more rapidly than population. There is also growth in membership of religions that promote holiday season celebrations and many agnostic and athiest people don't feel precluded from celebration with lights.

Probably growth in wealth of low income families world wide as well as the spread of culture inclusive of celebrating with lights will keep the energy consumption from lights growing at a strong pace, regardless of LED lumen per watt efficiency gaines.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 17 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (1); BestInShow (1); Codemaster (1); Crabtree (3); lyn (4); phoenix911 (2); RAMConsult (2); terrapin (1); truth is not a compromise (2)

Previous in Forum: Transparency   Next in Forum: Caption This

Advertisement