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Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/17/2018 9:38 PM

We've got this framed 8X10 color glossy that was in storage for over 5 years, in a box apparently under some amount of weight.

Somehow, the glass was broken and part of the glass has stuck to the picture.

My first thought was to use water, but I then went to the web for "help".

Some suggested options are to soak it, freeze it, heat it, use a credit card to separate it, take it to a conservator, and the list is growing.

Fully aware of how this will probably go, I am soliciting help from any member who may have actually performed such separation, successfully.

Thank you all, in advance.

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#1

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/17/2018 10:07 PM

I'm going with screwed Lyn....

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#4
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/17/2018 10:31 PM

That wasn't one of the options.

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#2

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/17/2018 10:07 PM

I think I would scan it and copy the picture with glass and all, then use a photoshop program to remove the irregularities...then I would steam the original by hanging it in the bathroom while I took a hot shower, keeping the door closed....hopefully the glass will separate within 30 minutes...If not leave it hanging and have another family member(or whoever is handy) take another hot shower...repeating this process until the glass separated....if you failed at least you would have a copy...

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/17/2018 10:20 PM

Making the copy is a good suggestion.

If it was a photograph the negative or digital file might be available to reproduce the picture.

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#6
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/17/2018 10:45 PM

I'm confused. "If it was a photograph?" Yes, it was/is.

Of course, it was scanned immediately.

One of the downfalls of the digital age is that it's too easy to take 15 digital pics and think, "I'll edit that down to one later." I've probably got 5,000 pictures on various drives, files, backup hard drives, etc.

Freezing does not work.

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#28
In reply to #6

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/19/2018 8:16 AM

In your OP you stated color glossy. I just did get that it indeed was a photograph.

Looking up some well sorted files on some hard drives seems easier than to ask for another hand-drawn picture.

Or maybe not! Good luck!

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#5
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/17/2018 10:33 PM

Yes, and the whole fam damily would be clean.

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#13
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 12:01 PM

At least everyone will something entertaining to walk on while getting out of the shower. Dude! Really?

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#7

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/17/2018 11:25 PM

I did my apprenticeship in a large printing plant. They had a large graphics processing facility as part of the plant. Color slides (rather large slides) by times got stuck to glass plates used in the camera work. They used to put them in a pressure tank and pressurized the tank. The pressure got in between the slide and the glass and freed the slide. Maybe use a tank sprayer of some kind and see what happens.

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#8

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/17/2018 11:55 PM

I encountered this problem some time back although the glass was scratched but not broken on that one. The photo was a Kodak type print, so what I did may or may not work on an inkjet or laser printed pic.

The photo was mainly stuck to the centre section (about a square foot in total) on the glass, so I was able to put sheets of clean paper between the glass and the unstuck sections to protect those from any further degradation. I then gently heated the front surface of the glass with a heat gun - a hair dryer may be a safer bet in hindsight - allowing time for the heat to penetrate - and the photo was then timidly pulled free of the glass.

After removal you could still see part of the image on the glass although the photo looked to be pristine.

I didn't think to take a copy of the photo at the time and it was likely too large to be of any real assistance anyway, but it's a good idea.

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#9

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 1:57 AM

I don't know if this would have any chance of success, but maybe you could lay it flat, create a dam around the perimeter, and embed both the picture and the glass in a layer of acrylic resin. [??...]

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#24
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 3:51 PM

I see where you're coming from, but you need to find resin that is the same optical index as the glass for the fragments to 'disappear' in the acrylic.

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#10

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 9:10 AM

Taking a slightly different tack, I searched for photograph stuck to glass in lieu of glass to photo.

This page suggests a technique using a product called PhotoFlo. Sounds promising... sort of.

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#14
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 12:05 PM

Exactly what I was suggesting, good suggestion, boss. Was it P90 Photoflo?

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#11

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 11:08 AM

Really great suggestions so far.

I'll respond to some.

SE: Not sure what part of your answer got the GA votes. Living in a house with 3 boys pretty well insures that anytime I, or my wife, are in the bathroom the doors are closed, and locked. The prospect of sequential showering is not feasible for the same reasons. Group showering is also out of the question. I agree the idea does have merit and a steam iron may yield the same result.

N 60: Not feasible for me.

Spades: Yes, a hair dryer is a distinct possibility.

Tornado: I'm dealing with six separate pieces/fragments of glass. Ruled out.

Doorman: Always a timely response, yes, I did read about PhotoFlo.

I have, in the past, used warm water to separate old photographs (40 YO) that had been in storage.

So far, two cycles in the freezer were failures. Rule that out.

I'll probably try gentle heat next.

Then maybe steam.

I'm hesitant to soak the photo in any water solution because my fear is the relative difference in absorption of water between the glass covered portion and the open portion. My fear is the "open" portion will absorb water much more quickly and swell at a different rate leaving high and low spots on the surface of the picture.

Thanks for the collective help.

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#12

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 12:00 PM

Humorously:

Wrap the 8x10 around a metal cylinder of appropriate dimensions, wherein the cylinder in this embodiment of this invention is axially mounted to the output shaft of a high speed electric motor, 3600, or 7200 approximate rpm.

Turn on the "blender", and watch the glass carefully, as it will be slung off in various directions, not all at once, depending on how deeply embedded it has become. Kiss the thing goodbye. - end humor.

Seriously:

If the flat part of the glass is stuck to the emulsion, the only way to remove is to soak with film developer's wetting agent, from your local camera shop.

The solution used to be called P90 or something like that. It was used for final film rinse after washing to remove any traces of "hypo" left on the film, or paper.

You will lay the photo with the glass stuck to it, face down in a tray of the wetting agent diluted to the strength indicated on the container. Soak for a considerably longer period of time than indicated on the container, as you are relying upon the wetting action to penetrate the paper from the back side, and get it to let go.

If you are very lucky, there will be no peeling of the emulsion layer(s) from the photo. BTW- if this pic is a glossy, you need to dry after separation using one of those polished stainless drum dryers for photos. If you do not have, consult with a pro.

Best wishes and good luck.

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#15

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 12:16 PM

Well, I'm spring fresh from the shower with more of the glass firmly sticking to the photo than before. The steam resealed the glass to the emulsion.

Mark that one off.

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#16
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 12:21 PM

Yeah, you might want to test this removal project, on some worthless photo, not your good 8x10, just sayin', or turn it over to a perfesshunal.

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#17
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 12:57 PM

I can probably find the digital original but it may take days. I'm beginning to think that is my next project.

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#18
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 1:44 PM

I feel for ya on that one brother.

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#19

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 2:24 PM

Speaking with my librarian hat on, my suggestion is to find the closest library with a special-collections librarian or curator, describe the problem, and ask for suggestions. The ones I've worked with have always shared their knowledge freely.

I definitely wouldn't soak this. The freezing suggestion is intriguing, but I'm not a conservator.

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#20
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 2:41 PM

Well, since adhesion relies upon the attraction of opposite charges, how about "you" (Lyn) charge up that capacitor to say, 100 KV on the glass side, and the paper side, and see who lets go first.

I do not believe any harm will come to the photo of auntie Nelda.

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#21
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 3:00 PM

Good suggestion.

I just happen to know one of the curators at the Az Museum of Natural History.

They own me a favor anyway. Maybe I'll do that if my search for the original is fruitless.

Thanks.

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#22
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 3:03 PM

Let us know what course of action you decide on and how it works out. I'm sure you're not the only one in CR4Land that will encounter the same problem .

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#23
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 3:06 PM

OK.

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#29
In reply to #21

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/19/2018 8:23 AM

If you go there chuck that little rock on the back of the truck and have it checked if it is a meteor of some kind.

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#31
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/19/2018 11:01 AM

Sedimentary dark Limestone with chert.

Posted sometime last year.

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#37
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/19/2018 4:14 PM

I am sorry, but that rock is not going to help remove the glass from the 8x10 glossy photo.

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#40
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/21/2018 12:24 PM

Ah, found it.

The long wait for the meteorite that was none!

Hope healthwise you keeping it up!

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#41
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/21/2018 12:54 PM

At the mystery in my head is solved.

Thank you. As well as most old men I guess.

I'm going to start looking for old, rusty steel to build a stand for it.

That shouldn't take more than a year.

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#25

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/18/2018 8:15 PM

I'm breaking out my older laptop after football practice and looking to see if I can find the original.

Either way, I plan to continue my quest to remove the glass.

Stay tuned. Here's the problem.

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#26

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/19/2018 12:15 AM

Just asking as I have no idea about how to go about this problem, but if the sticking glass were subject to high frequency vibration would it not eventually fall off. Try to find what happens to an unimportant photo when vibrated first. If the vibration period could be matched to the natural resonate frequency of the glass this might even work. Interested in seeing how you finally get the result you are after.

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#27
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/19/2018 12:52 AM

I have no idea.

1. how to generate such a vibration

2. the frequency or power/amplitude required

3. there are a number of pieces, each with its own resonate frequency, I'd guess

4. vibrating a photo with no glass attached seems fruitless

5. attaching glass is impossible.

Thanks for the thoughts.

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#38
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/20/2018 10:34 AM

Lyn,

Here is a possible way to generate the vibrations.

Get a thick(so thick you will not deform it with a large hammer) piece of steel. It should be larger in both dimensions than the picture. Mount this piece of steel horizontally in a very robust fashion by bolting it along one edge to something very substantial(vice, anvil, huge steel I beam,...) so that the attached edge will not move. The edge opposite the attached edge should be free to vibrate.

Lay the glass face down on top of the free edge with none of it extending off of the edge.

Smack the underside of the free edge of the steel with a large hammer.

The glass is more brittle than the steel and should be pulverized with pounding. Tune the amplitude of your hammer blows to be just barely effective at breaking additional glass free from the rest.

Frequently lift the photograph and brush off the vibrating steel plate to clear detached pieces of glass.

Optionally, strategically place a very thin sprinkle of quartz sand under the glass on top of the steel. This will provide a few hard, sharp points to do localized damage to the front surface of the glass.

Continue processing until no visible pieces of glass remain on the surface of the picture or until you believe you can apply some (index of refraction similar to this specific glass) picture coating surface(urethane? Gesso?) to the picture to disappear tiny remaining glass fragments.

This is completely speculative since I have tried nothing but I believe it has less chance of damaging the picture than high temperature, solvents, etc as long as you do not start with too much violence. You might generate a test picture with its own glass just to practice prior to using the real one. Put nothing on top of the back of the picture unless you use something with very low mass such as embroidery stabilizer applied with rubber cement to reduce the chance of glass shards punching through the paper. Remove any loose shards promptly. Tune your power continually to provide only enough to continue damaging the glass. Frequency could be tuned by changing the length or mass of the free edge of the steel plate by, say bolting different mass steel plates under the plate. Insure that your bolts are beyond the picture dimensions. With luck and reasonable selection of the dimensions of the original plate, frequency will not need adjustment since this implementation depends just on the brittleness of the glass and does not necessarily require any specific resonance to be effective.

Wear eye(and skin) protection since pieces of glass may fly !

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#39
In reply to #38

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/20/2018 11:09 AM

And even more important, respiratory protection. It is going to generate a lot of glass dust.

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#42
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/21/2018 2:57 PM

To generate those frequencies, you might try using an Electro Theremin, an example would be the first 27 seconds of the intro to The Beach Boys Good Vibrations sound track.

I imagine to get the desired effect, you might need to experiment with varying degrees of amplification.

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#43
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/21/2018 5:04 PM

This is not a good idea.

I don't believe that anyone really knows how much power this would take.

Nothing about this would do anything buy destroy the surface of the photograph.

I'm trying to preserve the surface not pulverize it with glass shards.

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#44
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/22/2018 11:44 AM

I agree. With some of the techniques, you would be left wanting a bigger hammer when all is said and done.

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#30

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/19/2018 10:59 AM

Bearing in mind that the picture arrived in this world by passing through a series of chemical baths, I would not worry at all about putting the print back into a tray of water and leaving it for a while. I see no harm and possibly some benefit in adding a wetting agent (see Photo-Flo thread below). If the glass does not separate easily, then you have to consider what might be holding the glass and paper together, the worst case scenario being that the glass has actually pressed into the surface of the coating.

While pondering the next stage I would put the print back into the water and note that the glass would be less visible (refractive index of glass ~1.5, refractive index of water ~1.3). I would add sugar to the water to bring the RI up until the glass was no longer visible and take a rescue picture of the image.

For the next stage I would consider repeating the exercise with warm water (27ºC/80ºF should be routinely tolerated, possibly even warmer). Removal of the glass depends a bit on the size of the glass fragments, but I would be trying bent straws, bonded with glue to the glass, as handles.

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#36
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/19/2018 4:13 PM

I don't think handles are required. A well suggested warmer temperature of 30-37°C, along with the recommended (on label) concentration of Photo-Flo, should do the trick.

A gentle rocking of one corner of the pan (plastic rectangular tray is better), done by lifting one corner about 1 cm, then dropping it.

Once separated, you need a very highly polished stainless steel surface at a goodly hot heat to dry the print, and restore the glossy finish. This is why I suggested taking this to a pro.

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#32

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/19/2018 11:36 AM

I see that the glass is stuck to the margin of the photograph. Not stuck to the subject of the image. If the margin on the opposite side is unadulterated, make a copy of the undamaged side, then when you make a reprint, copy the mirror image and reprint that representative image to the opposite side.

Years ago, when I had a pool and spa service business, I had a client named Sarah Polensky, she had a picture matting business, people would bring her photos with the same problem as yours, she showed me how she would reconstruct the image ( photo ) then she would matte the picture into a frame, so if there was an irregularities in the border or near the margin, the matting would hide those.

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#33
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/19/2018 11:56 AM

Thanks. I imagine someone well versed in photoshop can edit it, the other side is green trees.

I'd like to preserve the original with the clarity it has. Scanning is always an option.

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#34

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/19/2018 1:54 PM

My suggestion, which I believe would do no harm, would be to purchase some 84% packs of salt solution from BovedaInc. Place them along with your picture etc. inside a heavy plastic bag and seal tightly. Inside you will create an 84% humidity, somewhat below the bathroom shower condition but safer. Leave for several days so it can all equilibrate. The glass pieces may lift off and if not, try some modest heat. Good luck.

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#35
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

01/19/2018 2:25 PM

Thanks.

I've decided to take no action until I have contacted the museum on Monday.

My cursory search for the original was unsuccessful, which means the photo is probably on an external hard drive.

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#45

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

02/07/2018 3:44 PM

Thanks. Now I know what that clicking sound was. Someone from your business trying to contact me.

Although this post falls into the category of shameless self-promotion, I'll keep it in mind if I ever get back to the photo salvaging.

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#46
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Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

02/07/2018 4:44 PM

I deleted the spam and I'm going to mark your OT only because it's referring to the deleted message. Very strange.

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#47
In reply to #46

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

02/07/2018 4:59 PM

Thanks.

I have adjusted my priorities from photo salvaging to metal "sculpture" for the limestone and chert rock, which is done now, to woodworking.

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#48
In reply to #47

Re: Help Separating Broken Glass From a Picture

02/09/2018 9:13 AM

Yeah, woodworking is fun, and it really spurs your creativity. You come up with all sorts of projects that you'll likely never have the time to finish.

I for one am procrastinating on:

  • making Campaign Chests to replace the plat-pack wardrobe in my bedroom
  • making bookcases to finish up the library room, so it can hold not only all the books I keep on hand, but also my vast collection of vintage board games
  • making custom boxes for the board games with damaged boxes, and for the games that, with their expansions, no longer fit into their original boxes
  • finishing the slat wall/french cleat paneling in the garage, so tool and supply storage there will be much easier
  • building a buffet/side table for the dining room that will complement the dining table, provide easy access to the fine china, and still be able to discretely hold the "Quick Job" tools and supply boxes (Where else would I keep the sorted boxes of Command Adhesive hooks and Magic Glide low-friction furniture foot ends)

...and the list goes on (and on, and on...)

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