Previous in Forum: Should I Pursue Further Education? (Master's Degree)   Next in Forum: Capacity Assessment for Surface Treatment Process
Close
Close
Close
Page 1 of 2: « First 1 2 Next > Last »
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42287
Good Answers: 1661

Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/13/2018 3:46 PM

This is from FlightAware Weekly Aviation News & Photo Newsletter

Could a NON-PILOT land an airliner?

Well, could you do it?

Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15016
Good Answers: 926
#1

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/13/2018 3:58 PM

This was an episode of Mythbusters.

In short, an air traffic controller can usually talk a person to pilot an airliner down. Just grabbing the controls without guidance is not recommended.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42287
Good Answers: 1661
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/13/2018 5:05 PM

Well......................ATC can only advise you of your relative position to the runway. They know nothing about the rudimentary controls, (wheel, throttles, rudder pedals and maybe flaps excepted) their location, and feel.

Flying straight and level, in ideal conditions, is very difficult for a non-pilot. Over correction at low speed/altitude will kill most of us.

If it was a choice between sure death and taking a chance at the controls, what would you have to lose trying?

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sebastopol, California
Posts: 1046
Good Answers: 47
#24
In reply to #2

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/18/2018 10:24 PM

I'd do it, but then I've flown before. If I suddenly had no pilot, I would be in the cockpit studying manuals, controls, and contacting ground control in a heartbeat.

I would totally freak out afterward and belt a couple of old whiskeys...

maybe both bottles!

__________________
Most people are mostly good most of the time.
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Canyons of the Ancients
Posts: 341
Good Answers: 2
#87
In reply to #2

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

10/17/2018 1:07 PM

Incapacitated for me is a relative term. Auto pilots give aircrews a false sense of reality and can put them in a "sleepy" state. Especially in aircraft (airbus) with a small joy stick off to the side, instead of an old school "stick and rudder". Today, the auto pilots are engaged at take off at V1, and stay on for the most part for the rest of the flight. God forbid the pitot tubes Don t freeze up. My father (B 25 pilot 1942-1945, American airlines pilot 1946-1982) taught me how to fly at a young age and said, you only have to learn one thing to be a good pilot...." how not to throw up" .

__________________
" looking for conscience in the brain is like looking for the band in the radio" N. H.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 8886
Good Answers: 1012
#3

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/13/2018 5:24 PM

I recall seeing one of those movies where the pilots of an airline are incapacitated and the star controller has to teach a passenger how to fly. At the end of the movie, she breaks through the cloud cover at the right altitude, right airspeed, and perfectly lined up with the runway. Not bad for a rank amateur! It wasn't that easy back when I learned to fly.

My guess is that it would be very difficult but maybe not impossible for a private pilot with experience in small planes (e.g. Cessna 150s) to land a jetliner. Small planes react much faster, so it would take longer to make necessary attitude adjustments to a large plane. Perhaps, it would be possible if there was enough time to get used to the plane's response to the controls before landing.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#29
In reply to #3

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/19/2018 2:50 AM

Rixter, I have a feeling the difference in landing speed, weight, jet vs single prop, etc would be a huge factor. If you've flown a small single prop, you get the feeling that you're going way too slow as your tires touch the ground, but you get used to it. If you slow an airliner to that speed, you'll stall.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Canyons of the Ancients
Posts: 341
Good Answers: 2
#88
In reply to #3

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

10/17/2018 1:17 PM

Now a days, the ground can take over an aircraft and control it. Robots are on tap for freight liners.

__________________
" looking for conscience in the brain is like looking for the band in the radio" N. H.
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22325
Good Answers: 403
#4

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/13/2018 5:59 PM

When and if it came down to it, What do you have to lose... I’ll tell you when I land this thing...

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Optical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Trantor
Posts: 5363
Good Answers: 646
#5

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/13/2018 6:00 PM

I could do it, but I'd hate part where I have to inflate the autopliot.

__________________
Whiskey, women -- and astrophysics. Because sometimes a problem can't be solved with just whiskey and women.
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22325
Good Answers: 403
#8
In reply to #5

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/13/2018 9:03 PM

Don’t be so selfish,... You’ve the only one here that’s done it before... we’re all counting on you...

i pick a terrible time to give up drinking....

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 30400
Good Answers: 1701
#6

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/13/2018 7:20 PM

Yes, no problem....I think I have an app for that....

__________________
Break a sweat everyday doing something you enjoy
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42287
Good Answers: 1661
#9
In reply to #6

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/13/2018 9:26 PM

All I have to say about this is they are out of their minds!

This guy is talking while making subtle attitude corrections that ONLY an experienced pilot would be making.

No way! No how! No time!

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 30400
Good Answers: 1701
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/13/2018 10:10 PM

Landing is easy, just keep in the green lights and make sure your speed is correct which is controlled by the flaps and throttle....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_approach_slope_indicator

__________________
Break a sweat everyday doing something you enjoy
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42287
Good Answers: 1661
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/13/2018 10:15 PM

If you are serious, you have no clue.

VASI lights are just another unneeded distraction that will cause overcorrection.

Buy an hour in a simulator.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 30400
Good Answers: 1701
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/13/2018 10:25 PM

I use them....yes I fly....

__________________
Break a sweat everyday doing something you enjoy
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 136
Good Answers: 10
#42
In reply to #10

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/19/2018 11:43 PM

No green lights on a VASI/PLASI system.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1508
Good Answers: 134
#7

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/13/2018 7:53 PM

If I had enough fuel for a couple of hours of OJT, got someone good on the radio and was shooting at a long runway I think I would have a good chance of walking away. Without time, good instruction and setting the plane up properly it could easily become Tachikawa Part 2.

__________________
Few things limit our potential as much as knowing answers and setting aside questions.
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 397
Good Answers: 3
#13

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/14/2018 8:53 AM

Depends where Your landing. If the airport is equipped with auto pilot landing

system it would be a snap. Well maybe not a snap, You would still have to make some manual adjustments but I think a person with nerves of steel would be able to land

a commercial plane.

oilcan13

Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 136
Good Answers: 10
#25
In reply to #13

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/18/2018 10:48 PM

Tell us about this 'autopilot landing system'.

Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 141
Good Answers: 3
#14

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/14/2018 9:02 AM

Having been a pilot for good chunk of my life in lighter craft with a 6 place Comanche being the heaviest. I would have to say absolutely not.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22325
Good Answers: 403
#15
In reply to #14

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/14/2018 9:30 AM

Maybe so, but I’m one not to exhaust all options, no matter the odds.

It does remind me of a post I did a few years back here about experience

Maybe so, but when they is no other choice, I’m one not to exhaust all options.

At a company I had worked at, I had worked with a pseudo electrical engineer, that was about to get his single engine pilots licenses.

it was at the time when ‘Sully’ landed in the Hudson.., he was talking smack, that it’s not that hard and quite easy to land a passenger jet, really.

I thought he was joking, but one of the guys on the shop floor said he was serious, they called him Doogie Hauser, and not for good reasons. I could believe it, I let him talk, like I normally do until it was just ridiculous and couldn't stand it anymore.

I told him if you thing it’s easy, that only tells me you don’t know what your talking about. We both had a brief exchange with his defense was that he had more experience that me.

I than asked who is he trying to convince, I then took a show of hands with a question, if you were one of the passengers on this airliner, but you had a choice of pilots to pick from, one being Doogie Hauser here, who doesn’t even have his single engine pilots license whose only licenses he holds is a bar tending license, but yet can talk a mediocre game to be your pilot, or Chesley Sullenberger with 30 years of experience flying commercial aircraft. Which would you choose to be your pilot.

Everyone chose Sully, and with good reason. And I told him to stick with something he knows something about, which is bartendering,

Yes, I chose practical, proven flying experience. Sorry Otto-Pilot, but at least you have Usbport to keep you company...

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: NYC until mid 2015, currently NC
Posts: 756
Good Answers: 8
#41
In reply to #15

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/19/2018 11:33 PM

One thing many people were not aware of was that Sully was a glider pilot (in addition to his military and commercial flight time).

This qualification probably contributed to his ability to handle the powerless aircraft more than any other - he treated it like a big glider!

__________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 413
Good Answers: 23
#16

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/14/2018 9:33 AM

Inexperienced girl trying to land A320

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22325
Good Answers: 403
#17
In reply to #16

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/14/2018 9:43 AM

Pretty automatic.

Still depends on the situation, look at my link of Sully, and the scrutiny he went through.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22325
Good Answers: 403
#18

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/14/2018 9:15 PM

Interesting what could happen...

Just came across this, back in 2005 of what happened to Greece Helios flight 522.

Im thinking if such a thing would happen, not only flying and landing a commercial jet, could be the least (and final) of your problems one has to deal with.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: MSP, MN
Posts: 707
Good Answers: 8
#39
In reply to #18

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/19/2018 11:57 AM

I've seen several of these hypoxia accidents. You'd think the aircraft would have a warning system to alert the pilots to low pressure long before it becomes a problem.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1061
Good Answers: 92
#19

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/15/2018 10:45 PM

Yes- in fact almost anybody could. Wouldn't necessarily be a good landing though.... (the old pilot's dictum- a good landing is one you walk away from !)

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15016
Good Answers: 926
#20
In reply to #19

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/16/2018 9:03 AM

Then there's also the meaning of the word "could". There are people who panic way too easily. Panic introduces chaos and wastes time but even these individuals could succeed in landing an airliner. The other misconception of this statement is it only happens once. Unlike in a simulator a poor airliner landing kills.

As I mentioned earlier but posted only the initial clips, Mythbusters found this harrowing poor option to be plausible.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply
2
Guru
Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - Time to take control United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posts: 2099
Good Answers: 87
#21

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/16/2018 1:06 PM

It depends on your definition of 'Land'. I am quite certain I can get the aircraft on the ground.

Walking away is another story altogether.

__________________
J B
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK
Posts: 5155
Good Answers: 279
#32
In reply to #21

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/19/2018 5:44 AM

Yes, keeping it in the air indefinitely would be much more difficult.

__________________
We are alone in the universe, or, we are not. Either way it's incredible... Adapted from R. Buckminster Fuller/Arthur C. Clarke
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Canyons of the Ancients
Posts: 341
Good Answers: 2
#91
In reply to #21

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

10/17/2018 3:00 PM

Air force pilots "grease" it in, navy pilots do " controled crashes". And don't write them up.

__________________
" looking for conscience in the brain is like looking for the band in the radio" N. H.
Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42287
Good Answers: 1661
#22

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/16/2018 1:38 PM

Putting aside the planes equipped with what amounts to "auto-land" flight controls, I'm with Rixter.

If you had the luxury of an hour to learn where the critical flight controls were, and could practice turns and altitude/speed changes, with an experienced pilot of that type aircraft guiding you, you MIGHT have a chance.

Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15016
Good Answers: 926
#23
In reply to #22

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/16/2018 3:33 PM

Exactly!

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Tamworth, UK.
Posts: 1780
Good Answers: 45
#31
In reply to #22

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/19/2018 5:17 AM

I go along with Lyn. Enough time to 'learn' the controls - where they are - knobs/switches/gauges/etc - and enough time to get feedback and the 'feel' of using the controls - I might be able to do it if I had to in an emergency.

But what happens to the plane in the time it takes to remove the 'dead' pilot from the seat, and being an airliner how would passengers know the pilot had 'died' in the first place, and how would they get in the cockpit (that had bombproof doors?)

Learning to 'fly' is only part of it.

But also being an airliner isn't there a co-pilot/engineer/navigator? and are cabin crew briefed/trained for such situations.

On balance it must be possible for a novice to land a plane - given enough practice - and time to learn. In reality I guess that if that was not the case, we would not have any pilots at all.

__________________
When arguing, remember mud-slinging = lost ground.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Hemet, Land of milk and honey.
Posts: 2366
Good Answers: 36
#26

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/18/2018 11:20 PM

When you say, " landing" do you mean by the wheels or the nose ?

Reply
2
Power-User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 136
Good Answers: 10
#27

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/18/2018 11:20 PM

I hold an airline transport pilot certificate, but I've never flown anything larger than a KingAir.

That said, anyone can land an airplane--once. When I taught flying, I'd tell my students that the goal was to be able to re-use the airplane. I'm pretty sure I could land an airliner and not do much damage IF I was able to talk to a pilot on the ground that was familiar with that type. I would also go to the longest runway I could find, and make a couple of passes over it for practice. A controller really doesn't have a clue about flying, they can just tell you which way to go.

My brother-in-law flew for Southwest Airlines for about a decade. One time he and another pilot were assigned to test fly a plane that had just come out of the shop after a major repair. They took the mechanic that signed off the work along with them so he could see any problems if things didn't work right. They got ATC to give them a big block of airspace high above Dallas and proceeded with their testing. After they finished their testing, they let the mechanic try his hand at flying it. He had not flown a plane before, but obviously knew a lot about it. He failed miserably. He couldn't hold altitude within a thousand feet and just wandered around aimlessly.

Most people that try flying an airplane for the first time tend to grossly over-control it. I would always release the controls and demonstrate using trim and slight rudder pressure to control it.

The big secret about airplanes is that the bigger they are, the easier they are to fly. Heavier planes are less affected by wind gusts, but they are slower to respond to control inputs. I think a private pilot with a thousand hours could be talked down, but I would expect damage to the airplane. I don't think a non-pilot could successfully land an airliner. Yes, there have been many cases of non-pilots landing small planes, but in most cases, they were frequent passengers and had some experience in procedures and what a landing should actually look like from the cockpit.

Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#30
In reply to #27

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/19/2018 3:10 AM

GA to you!

Much of what you say is what I was thinking.

I've never flown anything larger than a Cessna 172, so a KingAir is big to me. I would not feel comfortable being talked down in a KingAir, but I could probably do it.

Longest runway - check!

Couple practice runs - check!

Non-pilot landing a 152 - very possible

Non-pilot landing a small jet - very unlikely.

Non-pilot landing a 737 - nope

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Canyons of the Ancients
Posts: 341
Good Answers: 2
#99
In reply to #27

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

10/18/2018 5:14 PM

I would much rather have a wind gust than "slower to respond". And I can't imagine flying using a small " joy stick". Over correcting is a killer.

__________________
" looking for conscience in the brain is like looking for the band in the radio" N. H.
Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#28

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/19/2018 2:45 AM

For those who have flown an airplane, you know that it's much more difficult to land than it seems. I think the most forgiving single engine plane may be able to be landed by a non-pilot - think Cessna small single engine like a 150, 152 or 172. In most cases, there would be some damage to the plane, but I think the pilot and passenger would survive.

I've never flown anything larger, so I don't know what it's like to land an airliner. My best guess would be that the person would wind up killing a lot of people. Airliners fly much faster than little 152's, so there's a lot of speed to scrub. Too much and you stall.

One thing you guys need to consider. The approach speed of a 152 is 60 knots vs 130 for a 737. Small mistakes become big ones at higher speed. For anyone who has ever landed a small plane like a 152, you know that the landing speed feels oddly slow and things happen at a relaxed pace.

You also have to consider the decrease in speed. The 737 cruises at 523 mph vs 123 for the 152. The 737 will need to drop from 523 to 145 mph, or a drop of 378 mph. In a 152, you drop from 123 to 66 mph, or a decrease of 57 mph. Going from 523 to 145 mph is a big change.

Just my two cents. And I certainly would not want to be in the position of having to land a 737.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15016
Good Answers: 926
#34
In reply to #28

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/19/2018 8:00 AM

I'm confused about your and others stalling criticism. I thought one wanted to be near or actually in a stall for a plane at the moment of landing. Stalling at a hundred meters above land would certainly be bad in most planes but at a hundred millimeters seems like a hard but successful landing. Not deploying the flats and/or slats on an airliner will mean a significantly faster stalling speed than comfortable for most runways.

Getting instruction on control location from the ATC or the flight instructor located by the ATC is critical. I expect the controls will be labeled but using a cryptic acronym specific to each craft.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#47
In reply to #34

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/21/2018 1:28 AM

The word stall has a very specific definition in aviation. It means the plane angle of attack is too steep, which causes buffeting (due to the unstable air above the wing), takes the plane off the flight plan and the controls are severely diminished. At low altitude, it's very difficult to regain control after a stall.

We want to land at minimum 1.3X stall speed, which gives us a margin of error.

I've never stalled a plane. In training, we're told to do what we can to avoid a stall. On the planes I flown, they have a warning horn for stalling.

If you stalled a 737 a couple hundred yards above ground, you'd most likely not gain control back and crash the plane and kill the passengers.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15016
Good Answers: 926
#49
In reply to #47

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/21/2018 7:40 AM

I would say a minimum of 1.3 times stall speed with a concern for a margin of error as very close to stall speed. The only fixed wing planes that deliberately stall close to ground all fit in the VTOL category but none of those are passenger aircraft.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#54
In reply to #49

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/21/2018 6:00 PM

When you're landing a small Cessna, it feels like you're barely moving as you touch down.

Aaaahhh VTOL's. Never been in one, but I did watch one take off and land. It was at an air show - they had a Harrier vertically land, take off and fly away. Very cool to see.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Tamworth, UK.
Posts: 1780
Good Answers: 45
#50
In reply to #47

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/21/2018 8:12 AM

To a complete novice - is the plane still 'flying' at ground level when it lands and then drops below 'stall' speed when it is on the ground - which to me is the likely case given a long runway - or does the pilot have to slow to a minimum speed to 'stall' and 'drop' on the runway (hopefully from a low height if the pilot has got it right) in order not to overshoot the runway.

__________________
When arguing, remember mud-slinging = lost ground.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#52
In reply to #50

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/21/2018 5:30 PM

The plane is still flying with the pilot controlling the plane when it touches down (at 1.3X stall speed). We don't want the plane to drop to the runway, because it's not good for the airplane. Remember that we can't see when the tires hit the ground. We feel the tires touch down, then we slowly drop the nose and slow the plane down. Some planes are designed to land on a short runway (STOL) - they have a low stall speed, so their approach is slow. As soon as the tires hit the ground, the pilot has to stop the plane in a short distance. I remember reading about a plane that could land in 150ft. The stall speed was something silly like 20-30 mph.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#53
In reply to #52

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/21/2018 5:43 PM

Here's the plane. Stall speed 25 mph and needs a 30 ft runway to land and take off with 50ft tall obstacle. Amazing!

3/4 scale single prop fighter plane

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15016
Good Answers: 926
#56
In reply to #53

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/21/2018 6:48 PM

In WWII the Westland Lysander was the Allies STOL for the SAS, OSS and resistance support.

This plane had a higher stall speed of 65 mph but the landing gear fairings had some very useful features like landing headlights and a mount for a 50 cal Browning.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#64
In reply to #56

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/23/2018 4:34 PM

That's a cool plane. I like the shape of the wings! Looks like a strong airplane.

In the picture, it looks like the ladder is attached to the plane. Is this a picture of a model or is this a real plane in flight?

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15016
Good Answers: 926
#68
In reply to #64

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/23/2018 9:36 PM

That is 100% real and recent. The Westland Lysander is one of the hidden in plain sight treasures of WWII. Click on the image to get the Wikipedia article.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#73
In reply to #68

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/24/2018 1:34 PM

I just checked Wiki. The ladder is fixed on later versions of the plane. Very cool plane! Thanks for sharing.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Madison, WI.
Posts: 2093
Good Answers: 80
#67
In reply to #53

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/23/2018 5:47 PM

The Stork?

__________________
Knowing is the end result of learning, not believing.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#71
In reply to #67

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/24/2018 1:16 PM

Storch.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Canyons of the Ancients
Posts: 341
Good Answers: 2
#93
In reply to #47

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

10/17/2018 6:17 PM

There is also a power on stall which is absolutely a must to learn. The only thing you have to know to be a good pilot is.....how not to throw up.

__________________
" looking for conscience in the brain is like looking for the band in the radio" N. H.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK
Posts: 5155
Good Answers: 279
#33

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/19/2018 5:59 AM

Just from a practical point of view: would you be better off heading for open water; a large area of open countryside, or, an airport?

I'm guessing that if you couldn't figure out how to get the landing gear down then open water would be the best option.

I doubt if anyone with no experience could restrict themselves to something as small as a runway, but, if you had plenty of opportunity to gradually get closer and closer to ground/water whilst slowing down to an absolute minimum speed you might stand a chance.

__________________
We are alone in the universe, or, we are not. Either way it's incredible... Adapted from R. Buckminster Fuller/Arthur C. Clarke
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Brecksville, OH, USA
Posts: 230
Good Answers: 1
#35

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/19/2018 9:15 AM

Seems like designers should give consideration to providing a way to do this!! Yeh, I know it would increase costs.

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15016
Good Answers: 926
#36
In reply to #35

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/19/2018 11:02 AM

No, they shouldn't. This scenario has never happened for a good reason. One person becoming incapacitated in a safe cockpit has happened but both pilot and co-pilot imply the cockpit is not safe.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42287
Good Answers: 1661
#37
In reply to #36

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/19/2018 11:45 AM

Cockpit crews, pilots, are not allowed to eat the same food as each other, to lessen the chances of both getting food poisoning during a flight.

99% of the passenger cabin crew know nothing about flying a commercial airliner.

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15016
Good Answers: 926
#38
In reply to #37

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/19/2018 11:56 AM

I knew about the food and drink (not just alcohol) restrictions for pilot and co-pilot before a flight.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 136
Good Answers: 10
#43
In reply to #37

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/19/2018 11:47 PM

This is nonsense! There are NO RESTRICTIONS on eating for flight crews, other than the obvious restriction on alcohol. They often eat together--if they get time to eat at all.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42287
Good Answers: 1661
#44
In reply to #43

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/20/2018 12:05 AM

You hold the ATP ticket but, it seems there is some truth to the rumor.

"The practice is not mandated by the Federal Aviation Administration, however most airlines have their own rules about it."

Why pilots and co-pilots can never eat the same meal - Business Insider

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: NYC until mid 2015, currently NC
Posts: 756
Good Answers: 8
#40

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/19/2018 11:24 PM

There are a lot of variables involved, most important the time for some "OJT" as one poster noted, and instruction by a pilot familiar with that particular model aircraft.

While I would not volunteer to be the first to try, I would volunteer if no other person did.

As one poster noted early in the thread, you really have nothing to lose: you screw up you die; someone else screws up you still die!

I would consider it in the realm of possibility, but not probability.

__________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Tamworth, UK.
Posts: 1780
Good Answers: 45
#45
In reply to #40

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/20/2018 8:56 AM

...at what stage of this scenario would the passengers become aware that the plane was in 'trouble' to the extent it needed a novice pilot to land it ?

...and statistically what are the chances that there will be a passenger with 'flying' knowledge on board?

__________________
When arguing, remember mud-slinging = lost ground.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42287
Good Answers: 1661
#46
In reply to #45

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/20/2018 6:32 PM

At what stage? Probably when the attendant asks if there are any passengers on board who hold an ATP multi-engine ticket. (Airline Transport Pilot) That could qualify you as a potential candidate. Then type rating for that or similar aircraft would be desirable.

Statistically, there is a good chance that someone with 'flying' knowledge would be on board. Then it depends on your definition of 'flying' knowledge.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Tamworth, UK.
Posts: 1780
Good Answers: 45
#48
In reply to #46

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/21/2018 7:22 AM

Assuming here the pilot had made a call for a 'qualified' pilot for assistance before collapsing - fine! but there is the logistic problem of actually removing the 'dead' pilot from the seat to get control.

In the wider scenario 'flying knowledge' would consistant with contributors here who think they might be able to do it.

But still back to the basic level, without a request from the 'pilot' how could passengers tell the plane was in trouble.

My very first flight experience was counter-intuitive. I thought the nose would point down to the ground when going down to land. But no. Instead the nose went up as though climbing when the plane then felt as though it was 'dropping' out of the sky - made worse by a lot of sudden loud clunking noises and seemingly sudden braking - that I guessed was due to the wheels being lowered - but my wife was terrified -

So if we sense 'strange' things happen at times when there is no problem - what are the signs that mean there is a real problem. How would passengers know there was a problem - even a fully qualified passenger come to that.

I am not trying to devalue the question, but to my mind a number of issues arise - where actual flying the plane could be somewhat academic - at least before it was too late.

__________________
When arguing, remember mud-slinging = lost ground.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42287
Good Answers: 1661
#51
In reply to #48

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/21/2018 12:48 PM

Any strange activity in at the cockpit door will alarm the passengers. It could be phrased as an invitation to visit with the co-pilot just outside the door.

There's NO way to not alarm the passengers, unless there is a uniformed pilot in the passenger cabin. Even that is very iffy.

Now on the the subject of private pilots, there are many people who are single engine and some multi-engine pilots flying commercial every day.

In the simplest of terms if they know that the houses get smaller when you pull the wheel/stick back, and larger when you push forward and that throttle back slows you down and left pedal push turns you left, ground brakes are at the top of those pedals they, giving sufficient time to do some turns, altitude changes etc, MIGHT have a chance. That's a BIG might.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#55
In reply to #51

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/21/2018 6:12 PM

At the end of 2017, there were 609,306 licensed pilots in the US.

I'd bet that you could double or triple the licensed pilot number to get the number of people who have flown a plane.

There's a good chance that at least one passenger has had some flying time. Knowledge of the feel of an airplane and it's controls is important to keep the plane in the air. There's not only flight time, but also a lot of reading to learn things like how to contact the tower (and how to speak to them), air space rules, things you don't want to do to other planes (you don't want to jetwash a smaller plane), things you never want to do to your plane (stall - unless you know what you're doing, banking, using flaps, etc).

Keeping the plane in the air is doable. Landing a 737 (or larger plane) is another story.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42287
Good Answers: 1661
#57
In reply to #55

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/21/2018 8:02 PM

Aviate, navigate and lastly communicate.

If the FAA is on the ball, which they will be, you shouldn't have to worry about any traffic getting close to you.

The, "descend and maintain flight level so and so," jargon won't be on anybodies mind either. You should only be listening to a type certified pilot.

Over correction will be your worst enemy.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: NYC until mid 2015, currently NC
Posts: 756
Good Answers: 8
#58
In reply to #51

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/21/2018 10:47 PM

Aren't critical situations usually transmitted quietly by flight attendants, so as not to upset other passengers?

__________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42287
Good Answers: 1661
#59
In reply to #58

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/21/2018 11:18 PM

Never been there myself.

But, unless the cabin crew has personal knowledge of a pilot on board, how would they know who to ask.

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15016
Good Answers: 926
#61
In reply to #59

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/22/2018 7:46 AM

Cross referencing the passenger manifest with a pilot database might help with that.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Tamworth, UK.
Posts: 1780
Good Answers: 45
#60
In reply to #51

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/22/2018 6:05 AM

Sorry Lyn #51, I am not trying nit-pick your reply, for which I thank you.

Yes, strange activity in the cabin would alarm passengers, but how would the passengers first become aware that things were not right with the plane, or that activities in the cockpit were 'strange,' even if they were aware of any activities at all. And surely the co-pilot coming out to ask for help to fly the plane, would itself cause panic rather than alarm.

I heard somewhere that a 'secret' language exists for aircrew to communicate, but unknown to me. I have this uneasy feeling that the first signs to me of something seriously wrong would be a flurry of discreet activity by cabin crew and then something like "fasten seat-belts" - followed soon by the ground looming up large and quickly - by which time I imagine it would be too late.

Albeit maybe just enough time for a quick crash course in flying.

__________________
When arguing, remember mud-slinging = lost ground.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42287
Good Answers: 1661
#62
In reply to #60

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/22/2018 4:35 PM

No apology necessary.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#65
In reply to #60

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/23/2018 5:30 PM

Many, many years ago, I was on a plane headed for Washington National from LAX. As we were climbing, just seconds from touching off, I felt a slight drop and we continued climbing, but at a slower rate. We then banked left, however we took a very wide turn. After clearing LA airspace, the pilot came on the intercom and told us we were heading back to LA. He told us that everything was okay with the plane, but we had to turn back as a precaution.

I don't remember which way we banked to head back, but the turn was extremely wide, which made me concerned. The flight attendants were going back and forth to the cockpit and the cabin. I think a lot of us sensed that there was something wrong, but we all stayed calm - nobody panicked.

After the plane had finished it's turn, one of the flight attendants got on the intercom and had us practice a brace position. One guy didn't want to practice and one of the flight attendants got snappy with him. He still refused and she yelled at him "do you want to die!" You could feel the tension in the air! The guy finally gave in and practiced with the rest of us.

As we approached the runway, the flight attendants yelled "BRACE, BRACE!" We all braced and I watched out the window as the plane touched down. Emergency vehicles were lined up on the runway. We hit hard, bounced and hit hard a second time. The nose dropped and all wheels were on the ground! We stayed in the brace position until the plane was down to a reasonable speed. We all cheered!

After that flight, I avoided DC10 airplanes. I don't think I ever flew in another one.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42287
Good Answers: 1661
#66
In reply to #65

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/23/2018 5:38 PM

United Airlines used to allow passengers to listen to ATC/pilot traffic if they had a scanner. I thought it was great.

You used to be able to follow your progress with GPS receivers if you sat by the window.

I used to do both. No more. Airlines prefer mushrooms as passengers, not informed people.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#70
In reply to #66

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/24/2018 1:15 PM

Oh my goodness, you're right! I forgot about that. I never did it, but I remember some of the other guys from my office would do it.

And we're not mushrooms, we're cattle!

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42287
Good Answers: 1661
#72
In reply to #70

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/24/2018 1:28 PM

Cattle!

I'm flying SWA with our 12 and 13 YO kids on Friday. Before the "pay for Group A seating" charges, even checking in 23 hours and 59 minutes before the flights we still could never get three seats together.

When they were 7 and 8 I asked the attendant to ask for volunteers to trade seats so we could sit close, if not in the same row. NOBODY volunteered.

They're old enough now that they don't care and SWA has the only 3 hour, non-stop flights to where we are going.

Still, on any airline, there's NO legroom, narrow seats and germs everywhere.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#75
In reply to #72

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/24/2018 4:27 PM

Yes, yes, yes! I've flown SWA many times and it's like herding cattle. The other airlines aren't much different. It's disappointing to hear that nobody would move seats for your family. Common courtesy!

I did have an excellent flight on LAN Chile a few years ago. I was actually worried about flying on the airline, but I was told they have top notch planes and the service is good. I wanted to fly a US based airline, but there were no reasonably priced flights, so we flew them. No cost beer and wine in a real glass, good quality food served on plates and silverware provided as well. More room than domestic airlines, nice clean cabin and friendly crew. We were both very impressed.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42287
Good Answers: 1661
#76
In reply to #75

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/24/2018 6:42 PM

We fly Allegiant when we go to Minn. Reserved seats and friendly cabin crew.

They do charge $25.00 to use the overhead bins and $40.00 to check bags, both of which are totally ridiculous.

We have clothes in the house there, so we just carry our under-seat backpacks. They don't charge for that, yet.

If you get the very first seats by the door, they'll stow your bag for you in the overhead, and retrieve it for you, free.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#77
In reply to #76

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/24/2018 7:06 PM

I believe my better half flew Allegiant when she went to Montana a couple years ago. $25 to use overhead bins??? Wow, they charge for everything!

I did fly Frontier a year or so ago. They were no-frills, but the price was good. I don't think they charged for overhead bins, but I know they (like all the others) charge to check bags.

I have a couple hundred thousand AA points and I have a couple of their credit cards, so I think I'm allowed to check bags at no charge if I fly AA. I also think I can visit the Admirals Club (or whatever they call it), but I've never done so. I'm the guy you see running through the airport to catch my plane!

If you take a trip to South America, try one of the LAN airlines. I think you'll be impressed.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42287
Good Answers: 1661
#78
In reply to #77

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/24/2018 8:49 PM

SWA checks two bags free and the overhead bins are free too. We don't have a stash of clothes back on the farm so we pack heavy.

For this trip three RT tickets cost me $36.00, thanks to points.

I used to fly first class when I traveled a lot.

No plans to ever fly to SA. At my age, flying is a necessary evil.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#81
In reply to #78

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/25/2018 3:11 AM

I didn't know SWA allows two checked bags at no cost. The farthest I've flown on SWA is from LA to Phoenix. In the early 90's, I did that trip almost every week - on a couple occasions, it was two times a week.

I take that back. One time I flew to Chicago from LA on SWA. There were 3 stops and it took way too long to get to Chicago. The only thing good about the flight was that it was free (the had some sort of bonus program - fly 12 segments, get one free ... or something like that).

Think about a trip to Peru. The country is great - an absolutely beautiful place! The people are warm and friendly and the food is phenomenal! And things are very reasonably priced as well. Don't say no - consider it. And you get to fly LAN Chile!

Take care - it was a pleasure chatting with you.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: NYC until mid 2015, currently NC
Posts: 756
Good Answers: 8
#80
In reply to #76

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/24/2018 11:30 PM

Shh! Don't give them ideas!

__________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: NYC until mid 2015, currently NC
Posts: 756
Good Answers: 8
#79
In reply to #75

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/24/2018 11:28 PM

After the NYC subway system at rush hour, air travel is a piece of cake.

__________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#82
In reply to #79

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/25/2018 3:18 AM

I actually enjoyed taking the NYC subway system. To me, it makes perfect sense - at least on Manhattan. Up town = toward Central Park. Downtown = Toward Wall St (not toward downtown). Cross town = to each river.

The subway in Chicago makes sense to me, but I'm from there, so I know the areas of town.

The subway in LA is also pretty good, however the homeless, drunks and drug addicts make the subway sketchy and also not the safest. Oh, I almost forgot the gang bangers and thugs! It's really not that bad, but when you have a stinky homeless guy next to you and then you see bugs jumping off, you know it's not very sanitary.

Two weeks ago, we took a trip to the beach in Santa Monica (Expo line). We had to connect with the Red Line to get to the Expo Line. Someone left a nice gift for us on the floor - looked like they had too much to drink and their stomach didn't like the motion of the train!

I'll take a subway trip over an airline flight any day. The train stays on the ground, while the airplane has a lot of elevation to drop if something happens to the plane.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: NYC until mid 2015, currently NC
Posts: 756
Good Answers: 8
#83
In reply to #82

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/25/2018 11:03 PM

"I actually enjoyed taking the NYC subway system."

Evidently you haven't traveled during rush hour - OR - you're a masochist.

BTW driving is no fun there either!

__________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15016
Good Answers: 926
#84
In reply to #83

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/26/2018 7:03 AM

Tourists visiting any city should avoid rush hour. If you don't have to be part of the irritated crowd then don't.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#86
In reply to #83

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

08/20/2018 11:18 PM

I actually didn't mind the NYC subway during rush hour. Ditto for Chicago. The time I don't like taking the subway/train is late at night. The creatures come out and I'm always concerned about getting robbed. I haven't been in a fight for many years and most likely if I'm robbed, I'll just hand over my wallet, but it's never happened to me and I don't know how I'll react. So, for my own safety, it's best that I don't get robbed!

I actually prefer taking the train during rush hour vs driving. I drove one time on Manhattan and I don't think I'll ever do it again.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15016
Good Answers: 926
#69
In reply to #65

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/23/2018 10:04 PM

Every machine eventually succumbs to entropy. Entropy rules, you cannot avoid it. At the same time, if I'm offered the chance to a commercial or historical flight in a DC 3 I'll take it.

I'm sorry you had a tense experience with a DC 10. Nonetheless it is the training and experience of the crew in charge of that plane that they detected a possible problem, mitigated the situation and transported everyone safely to where they wanted to be. Applaud the team, don't curse the plane nor her designers.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#74
In reply to #69

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

07/24/2018 1:48 PM

It seems like the early DC10's had some problems. I lived outside of Chicago when the DC10 crashed soon after take off. I remember climbing on the roof of our house to see the smoke coming from the airport.

I heard that Douglas did fix the DC10 and it was one of the safest airplanes when it was later in it's life.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Canyons of the Ancients
Posts: 341
Good Answers: 2
#89
In reply to #74

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

10/17/2018 1:29 PM

That was my dads DC 10!!!!!!! He was waiting for it at LAX to turn it around. Sad day, we knew the crew. Very poor design. All the hydraulics were on that right engine, otherwise they could have flown it out. Maintenance could have spotted that pin!!!! Sad day indeed , I only guess what went through your mind that day.

__________________
" looking for conscience in the brain is like looking for the band in the radio" N. H.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#90
In reply to #89

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

10/17/2018 2:30 PM

Wow, small world! Thank your lucky stars that he wasn't flying it!

I heard about the plane and the problem with the hydraulics, but I didn't know the specific reason.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Canyons of the Ancients
Posts: 341
Good Answers: 2
#92
In reply to #90

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

10/17/2018 5:58 PM

The hydraulics were fine, it was the location of the pumps (all on right engine). And piss poor maintenance (they should have found that faulty attachment pin.) The DC10 was not a pilot friendly plane. And it was smelly to.

__________________
" looking for conscience in the brain is like looking for the band in the radio" N. H.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#96
In reply to #92

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

10/18/2018 3:40 PM

Didn't flt 191 have a problem with the way they installed the left engine? Something about the engine and the carrier being installed wrong. I remember AA getting fined for cutting corners.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Canyons of the Ancients
Posts: 341
Good Answers: 2
#98
In reply to #96

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

10/18/2018 5:04 PM

Yes, this did not have to happen. Deregulation of the airlines put all the flight crews in serious jepordy. It only sucked in "fly by nighters " having an engine fall off because of human error, is just a slap in the face to all the flight crews. We knew the crew and were so heartbroken.

__________________
" looking for conscience in the brain is like looking for the band in the radio" N. H.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#97
In reply to #92

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

10/18/2018 3:51 PM
__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Canyons of the Ancients
Posts: 341
Good Answers: 2
#94
In reply to #90

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

10/17/2018 6:23 PM

He flew this DC10 many times back and forth from Los Angeles to Chicago, but his no. Was not up. He hated the 10's.

__________________
" looking for conscience in the brain is like looking for the band in the radio" N. H.
Reply
Associate

Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Canada's West Coast , Pacific.
Posts: 34
#100
In reply to #89

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

11/03/2018 4:30 AM

My Brother spent most of his Airline Career sitting in the right seat of a DC - 10. " Death Cruiser " , the Engineering team called it , but I've always been rather fond of McDonnell Douglas's 10 , and the MD - 11 Freighter which followed . O - Hare was very scary , watching that third turbine flip up and over the wing on Max Thrust . Scaryist moment in my life , It was very upsetting to watch . I'm a Commercial Pilot .

McDonnell Douglas found that American Airlines Maintenance had installed the engine incorrectly , but since the Design was so new , they didn't notice the error until it has caused the aircraft to fail , killing all on board .

I know many Crews who love the Airplane , I would gladly fly one , given the opportunity , I love the design , and consider both the DC - 10 and the MD - 11 State of the Art Designs , very well built .

The Hydraulic problem has plagued the 10 Series , and has given the MD 11 as well as the DC 10 a rather bad reputation , undeserved as far as I can determine . The problem lies in a hydraulic control system , which , if disabled , leaves the Cockpit Controls in a siezed state , and unless the " Ten " is in a stable cruise when that happens , it will barrel role itself over and power dive straight down , until it explodes hitting terrain. Not too good .

__________________
Steele113
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Canyons of the Ancients
Posts: 341
Good Answers: 2
#101
In reply to #100

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

11/03/2018 11:37 AM

Pilots train and train and train on procedures and check lists on engine failure. To have one "fall off".....well your SOL . Probably one of the most epic human failures. It wasn't a DC-10 problem. The flight crew didn t loose that engine they actually found it just outside of O'hare. The airplane didn't fail, Still haunts me to this day. My brother also flew a 10 for 15 years, he liked it although he always said it was kind of a smelly plane towards the rear.

__________________
" looking for conscience in the brain is like looking for the band in the radio" N. H.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#104
In reply to #101

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

11/08/2018 12:25 AM

I don't think they train for that! Most likely since it's not suppose to happen. Probably the same as no training for a wing falling off.

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Land of Fruits and Nuts
Posts: 4203
Good Answers: 52
#103
In reply to #100

Re: Could You Do It? Land a Plane if the Pilots Were Incapacitated?

11/08/2018 12:24 AM

Thanks for your contribution! I've never been behind the stick of anything larger than a single prop Cessna and I never completed training to get my license, so I have no clue how difficult or easy it is to fly a commercial jet. My guess is that it takes a lot of training to land one. I know it would be very tough for someone who has never flown to land even a little Cessna (land meaning to not crash and to live).

Can you shed some light on if you think it'd be possible for someone without pilot training to land a commercial jet? Coming from someone with extensive experience, your input is worth it's weight in gold!

__________________
Enjoy and be happy! Life is too short!
Reply
Reply to Forum Thread Page 1 of 2: « First 1 2 Next > Last »
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Autobroker (24); BruceFlorida (1); Casper71 (6); Deefburger (1); Dr. Harry (1); Dragon113 (1); horace40 (6); JBTardis (1); JNB (1); lyn (15); mikenelson6 (1); munch (13); oilcan13 (1); phoenix911 (5); Randall (2); rashavarek (2); redfred (12); Rixter (1); SolarEagle (3); SSCpal (1); steve45 (4); tonyhemet (1); Usbport (1); wrenchtwirler (1)

Previous in Forum: Should I Pursue Further Education? (Master's Degree)   Next in Forum: Capacity Assessment for Surface Treatment Process

Advertisement