Red Gold - Targeting Efficient Production of Martian Precious Metals

Just a few comments...

One of the things that need to be mined/manufactured is air. Mars has very little of it, and what it has is not breathable (CO₂). Ironically, on Mars, unlike on Earth, the metal oxides might be of more value than pure metals because the oxygen is valuable.

I would assume these materials are for local use because there is no way they would be economically competitive on Earth (high shipping costs).

re: O2

You might use high-temperature electrolysis of water. Run a water line across the 1400+ C smelter and O2 is produced with only modest additional electrical power.

Alternately, one could thermally decompose the harvested perchlorates; chlorine species complicate, but the reactions need no electrical power.

Also, if hydrogen peroxide is present in the harvested material, it thermally decomposes at low temperature to give O2 cleanly.

Would the thermal decomposition of, say, iron oxides, offer advantages?

re: shipping costs

Actually, in Red Gold scenarios the shipping costs would be very low, as it's assumed that any products returned to Earth are loaded as cargo on spacecraft already scheduled for return: i.e., as mail packages.

Example: A $1 billion shipment of gold (half as bullion, half as 3D printed jewelry), would mass only 22 tons, well within cargo capacity of a SpaceX spacecraft.

[edit] The Mars-Earth synodic shipment for $1 billion Earth-annual production would total 22 tons, given the working assumptions.

This is max payload associated with annual revenue of $1 billion. However bullion traded electronically could remain in the vault on Mars, thereby reducing payload.

Do you think people would buy gold when it is on another planet?

Yes there are people that would buy it. You can advertise right now by providing some bogus information about how you've acquired mineral rights on Mars and that the Rover has uncovered Martian gold and set a monetary amount for them to own a piece of Martian gold and send them a certificate of ownership of said gold and when mining operations are started on Mars, they will get a their piece of gold. All you need is 1% of about 7 billion people to fall for it. You know darn good and well, there are people gullible enough to fall for it.

You got me there, there are suckers people that would buy it.

As soon as I get my money out of Nigeria, I'll get some...

I have to clean mine, it's covered in a black substance. Only paid 10 cents on the dollar, a really good deal. They say all the bills are hundreds but I can't tell...….

Why anyone would buy something that is free is nonsensical.

If one were to be persuaded to buy something that turned out to be inaccessible to the buyer, that would make the business proposition a "long con". The basic principle behind it is to feed the buyer's greed by promising something for nothing, then sell the buyer nothing for something. The important thing for the seller to develop is to get away after the transaction without risk of getting caught, which safeguard is based upon the scurrilous nature of a prospective buyer.

It is not possible to carry out a long con on a prospective buyer who is honest, reputable and lacks excessive greed.

Better to build a fueling facility, need hydrogen and oxygen....finding a large water source on Mars would be best use of mining resources...gold would be pretty much worthless....

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/25/648917308/space-mining-learning-how-to-fuel-an-interplanetary-gas-station

Red Gold's necessary ice, salts and ore might be co-located within impact craters. Mid-latitude craters could also serve as habitation sites. Consider for example this crater, which likely contains more than enough ice, at 33 N.

As for the mine's value, consider the basic numbers above, and also the greater numbers in Red Gold 1.1.

You might glean some ideas by reviewing some of these guy's ideas: joe.fordham or DAVEWISOR or kastrupsky.

Don't forgot Tommey Reed and his clem motor based on a tornado.

Poor Tommy. He was ready to fight for his misguided beliefs.

I guess conviction and determination are fine, if well directed.

Which brings me to this thread. I have to place it in the "clem" category for, "You're going to do WHAT?" There's that little 34 MILLION mile trip to get there that makes this exercise laughable, at best.

Maybe, in a few years, all the old skeptics like me who'd rather see Earthly problems solved will be dead and then the "true believers" will be free to conquer brave new worlds.

Old skeptic Lyn, you know Themistocles?

And you know where he got the hard currency needed for war with Xerxes. Themistocles solved a great "Earthly problem" with that money.

Counterfactual question for you, and for analogy:

What if that silver vein were found in Lydia?

And, alas came the downfall of Aristides.

Lydia? What if we could bring Mar's riches back to Earth?

"We" will never know.

It's good to see you've got a sense of humor.

"I'm confused" is your better response there. Maybe others won't be so confused.

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A SpaceX cargo craft will return up to 50 tons. As gold bullion, that's ~ $2 billion. As jewelry, maybe $10 billion.

And it won't be one ship, but a fleet. Every 2.2 years. The outstanding engineering challenge is therefore not transport, but metallurgy on Mars.

Red Gold.

That's the topic.

I guess good things come to those who wait.

I'd rather be able to breathe clean air and not worry about the oceans rising.

Good luck in your quest.

I always thought that a scarce useful product increased its value. If the quantity is increased, how is the value maintained ?

Exactly how do you propose to pay for this trip to Mars?

Engineering

Think instead of means whereby any organization, public or private, might implement a Red Gold system, efficiently. It's an engineering forum; let's talk about engineering.

Now, re: finance

Brief example: SpaceX has ambition for a 2028 "Mars Base Alpha".

How to pay for Mars Base Alpha, and construct it by 2028?

Red Gold might pay for that base and enable construction by 2028, by transforming the base into a mining camp, on a schedule such as this.

But, again, this is an engineering forum, so engineering is the focus.

Ok, so I am a realist... Engineering of this scale can't happen without serious financial resources. Without those resources it's nothing more than science fiction.

I gave a fair, matter-of-fact answer to your question. You ignored it. That's not realism.

<...That's not realism....> It's good to see a measure of humour in these columns. Life would be so much the poorer without it.

I disagree. Your answer states that you'll pay for it by turning the base into a mining site. But to do that, you have to get there and send the asteroid into the surface first.

You must have a multi billion dollar line of credit to get this done.

Mars One estimates that to bring the first 4 people to Mars will cost US$ 6 billion. That would not include your laser satellite or other equipment needed for a mining operation.

Link.

The engineering is little more then science fiction if there is no way to finance it.

I absolutely believe that in time, we will be mining asteroids and possibly Mars, but we are not there yet and I don't see it happening in my lifetime.

You're still ignoring the actual answer to your question. Comment on the actual scheduled steps that were suggested.

And of course no one has to "send the asteroid into the surface". The surface is already rich in asteroid debris, even Fe-Ni ore, as noted in Red Gold post (1.).

You were looking at a proper ore sample, but you seem not to have recognized it as such.

Isn't Lake Matthew a crater cause by man sending an asteroid to the surface? Is the project discussed in this thread different from the one on the Lake Matthew website?

Yes, I recognize that picture as a picture of a mars rock taken from the rover. How do you know with any certainty what it's composition is?

For that matter how do you know for certain that there are enough precious metals accessible on the surface or near surface to make this a profitable venture?

There is plenty of gold left here on earth, in mines that are closed because it was no longer profitable to extract it.

Before you can even say you found gold, you have to spend billions to just get to it, and even more to construct a safe habitat in a rather hostile environment.

If this were my plan, the engineering I would want to talk about would be just that, how to stay alive for extended periods of time in a very hostile place. Setting up a base by 2028 is a very lofty goal and I don't see it happening by then, but actually mining the planet would be generations later, I.M.H.O.

That's an iron meteorite....maybe they are going to change iron to gold as well....a collection of meteorites from Mars would be worth a tidy sum....

Yes it is but the point is that it is on Mars. It could be made of platinum but it's still irrelevant. At this time that rock is inaccessible and will be quite some time. This whole project smells like a way to capitalize on other peoples greed.

It seems that Harness Dickey & Pierce, P.L.C., have something to do with this "project."

They are IP attorneys and any time attorneys are involved, I'm skeptical of the purpose.

Also any viable ideas presented by a forum member become intellectual property of said attorneys.

What's in this for us, keeping in mind that the average age of forum members is probably about 40 + years old?

Like I said, I'm more interested in clean air, water and environment than helping a bunch of lawyers get richer by selling patent rights.

Mass to Mars

Red Gold would refine metals under exceptional mass constraint. We've made some efforts to cut cargo mass within the exercise: we eliminated pressure vessels, eliminated liquid cargo, baselined processes as open-loop systems, etc. All to cut mass, and sometimes, complexity.

Other applicable mass-reduction methods deserve consideration. Those of you who've worked on spacecraft, aircraft, or airlifted systems might know any number of applicable methods.

Some ideas on the whiteboard:

Carbon-fiber composite reactors

The notional Red Gold reactors manage saltwater reactions at or below 100 C. Could carbon-fiber composite provide a low-mass option?

One issue: Carbon-fiber composites have been seen to acquire moisture when exposed to seawater, and that would be a problem here as well. But has industry solved that problem already, to render composites suitable for use in seawater, and thereby in saltwater reactors?

Wireless IoT + self-powered instruments

Some case studies illustrate benefits of wireless Internet of Things (IoT) instruments for mining. Also instruments may self-power, as with solar cell coverings. In the Red Gold facility instruments could self-power from sunlight and LED floodlighting. Where wireless IoT is combined with self-power, instruments operate without data cabling or power cabling. In a highly automated Red Gold facility, cable-free instrumentation could save many kilometers of cabling, and the associated mass and complexity.

Example: PRE-TEMP cable-free furnace temperature measurement.

Other examples of entirely cable-free instrumentation in mining and metallurgy would be of interest.

Extending that concept:

The notional Red Gold processes can leverage gravity flow. A crater has sloping ground, so each system component can be sited at elevation according to its position in the main process flow: e.g., first reactor at top, last reactor at bottom, vertical separation being set by pressure requirement. This removes many pumps from the main process flow, reducing mass and complexity. Only valves are required to control the downward flow.

The valves must be actuated. Typically actuators are powered electrically. If they could self-power off fluid flow, mass and complexity would be further reduced.

One industry requiring such fluid actuators is irrigation.

Example: Colt Irrigation's FluidPulse system:

FluidPulse is an automated valve system requiring no electricity; control is powered instead by fluid flow. Also IoT signalling is conducted through the irrigation piping. Thereby cables, PV, batteries, solenoids, and transmitters are eliminated, cutting mass and complexity significantly.

[FluidPulse pilot]

[Video: Colt Irrigation. Retrofitting an existing wired valve by replacing the solenoid with FluidPulse pilot.]

FluidPulse tech might be adapted to the requirements of Red Gold. Or perhaps such a system has been implemented already within a refinery, or at a desalination plant. Example plant implementations would be of interest.

Just as a point of clarity, your use of the word, "notional" here and elsewhere would mean to Joe six pack that "you don't have a clue," right.

I hear it's raining diamonds on Neptune if anyone wants to pitch in we can get 'em.

..we can keep them there for safe keeping.

It's all very scientific and Wall street ...so it's got to be good.

.. I don't say this very often but.

Really?

Lyn? JP? So are you sceptical or not? It's hard to tell.

Great post for so many reasons.

I think we should send along a copy the bath breaking chain. That'd keep 'em entertained for sure.

There's not much info on the web for Lake Matthews as an organization. Just the connection to the huge IP law firm.

I'm starting to sense a "clem" moment.

This makes things a little clearer. Read it and make sure to expand all the replies.

Oh my! Rather chilly reception there. And those two ugly words, "patent trolls" did enter my mind even before I read that!

Any law firm with over 300 employees has to have a steady revenue stream.

I still think kastrupsky. would be a good fit, and he works for the good of mankind so these guys could maybe "mine" some profit from his ideas.

I'm already working for free, so I don't have time to do anything but watch the world go by. And make snide remarks occasionally.

Those lawyers are a pretty big group, they have an office here in Michigan, only about 10 minutes from me.

Holy save the planet Batman, kastrupsky was way out there, I would have loved to go a few rounds with him....

Agreed, he and Tommey would make a great addition to Team Lake Matthew. I would evan nominate sciencetoolbar for the job also.

This sounds like a scam in the making...penny stock fodder...Red Gold? Ha!

https://www.philstockworld.com/tag/penny-stocks/

LakeMatthewTeam, you're playing to a tough crowd here.

You're going to have to bring something to the party besides notional ideas

Are you willing to sigh IP release agreements of any ideas that come from the forum?

Or have you, "runn oft?" ⇐term from Oh Brother Where Art Thou.

Garage

Context

A Red Gold facility is open-air; telerobotic maintenance seems appropriate, undertaken by crew notionally housed at SpaceX's Mars Base Alpha, which might be co-located within the same crater. You'd expect the design to make maintenance as easy as possible, leveraging cable-free instruments, chest-level connectors, standardized controls and displays, and so forth. Given such conveniences, telerobotic maintenance should be feasible, and robotic AI should be able to perform some maintenance tasks autonomously.

[Video: ESA/DLR]

Challenge

Some maintenance tasks would not be telerobotic. Say, for example, a fragment of electrolysis plate lodges within a reactor pipe. We'll posit the reactor must be disassembled: a task requiring hands-on work. For such work a pressurized garage would seem necessary.

Presumably the reactor is sized as SpaceX cargo, some 8 m in diameter and perhaps 15 m tall. Like all the other large machines, it's mounted on a wheeled chassis and positioned by tractors. For hands-on maintenance, tractors wheel the reactor into the garage, where work is done in shirtsleeves.

Methods

How might such a garage be fashioned?

Should an external airlock be appended, to admit the reactor while maintaining garage pressurization?

How to minimize garage mass and complexity, while providing a pressurized workspace of, say, 5000 m3?

Methods don't have to be commercial tech presently, but something tangible is always nice. Timeframe circa 2030.

Science fiction, nothing more. it's not Mars Base Alpha, it was Moonbase Alpha.

We seem to have forgotten a step here, the moon is so much closer, why wouldn't we destroy, exploit, harvest that first?

Bet we could make a really nice crater to terrorform if we redirected the earth into the moon.

It seems that we have fallen out of favor with the LakeMatthewTeam.

He seems to be ignoring us. Irreverence doesn't play well with dreamers, I guess.

Maybe we're just not a very fertile field to plow.

Just think, if these guys could stop global warming (fightin' words here I know, because it's a Chinese hoax, according to somepeople one person) the naval services of every country on the globe would save BILLIONS in moving or building dikes around all their coastal bases. Rising oceans threaten to submerge 128 military bases ... - Navy Times

Cities and towns (Miami is racing against time to keep up with sea-level rise) would gladly pay millions each....................................... Oh, never mind. There's that denial thing that keeps raising its ugly head.

Clearly these people are trying to corner the IP market on future innovations in space...and do it on the cheap by coaxing others to divulge any ideas they might have...They are posting this type of outrageous claim all over the internet in many chatrooms and forums about every aspect of space development...

Patent trolls are everywhere.

Taking a photo against a white background? Amazon owns the patent ...

Overall I agree that this is a fishing expedition. Or, is it a trolling expedition?

Either way, we've heard no explanation of funding nor actual expected benefit to mankind.

goodthink

It's a forum exercise. People can participate, here and elsewhere, just as they like.

Here, many defensive posts. Variations on "I don't know, so neither do you," with echo. It's unproductive.

And it discourages folks with knowledge and interest from participating. For example, JPool said:

"There are probably good harvestable minerals on the moon"

Those who know something about lunar resources could share info - but when "I don't know, so neither do you," is forum goodthink, no one's encouraged to share the info.

The result?

Well when you say it like that.

JPool still says there are good harvestable minerals on the moon, but JPool is not giving his ideas to harvest them to somebody looking to line their pockets from fools on the internet. JPool and Lyns plan to bring back these rare earth minerals by using LynDoor Industries® collaboration with Pool and Associates® patent pending Quantum Teleportation System™ is not for sale to you or anybody else.

We will get our gold from the moon before you get yours from Mars.

Bah! Gold is yesterday's news....The Helium 3 and water that hold the most value....

Ya got to start somewhere...….But 500 quadrillion dollars is a lot of chedder, maybe we'll start with the unobtanium first. We do have a patent pending way of refining it, and yes, we are looking for investors.

Start with gold as a generic term for riches.

Are you still unsure, JE? (#29)

You have to wonder... If you were able to mine the 500 quadrillion dollars worth of riches your link said were on the moon, what would be left?

Empty bottles of snake oil?

Yea, they are empty because the were used on red gold...

I don't think there's a market ready to buy 500 Quadrillion worth of moon water and helium 3.

But since it's there.. space travel to the moon and back should be profitable for NASA ... Yeah.. right.

A little teamwork unpacks the Lydia counterfactual.

Work through that and you'll find that the counterfactual can't be reconciled with your goodthink story.

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What then?

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No one's waiting to see. You can bring it to us.

Tortured logic sometimes still manages to find its way to a logical conclusion....

I think the Lake Matthews team got distracted by an ambulance on the way to the scene of an accident.

They are on to redder pastures.

Good-oh!