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The Quantum Universe

01/09/2019 10:35 AM

When I was younger I would gobble up scientific research with wide eyed awe that science was on the cusp of understanding the mysteries of the "infinite" universe.

A this stage in life I feel there's a disconnect with reality when each passing month and each passing year provides a glut of contradictory information and hugely speculative "scientific analysis" that debunk previous theory or lend support to the latest.

The way I saw it a a kid was that 'we could be a speck of dust on a ball of lint of the floor in the corner of gods kitchen'... Little did I know people were making their life's work trying to support equally plausible observations.

There is nothing I would love more than knowing the quantum universe and all the riddles it has to offer, but I don't see how it's possible? Not that we should stop speculating, or doing research, but the volumes of contradictory information that comes out regularly does nothing but water down what we do know.

I liken this subject to the current trend of battery breakthroughs. I think most of us can agree that this field of study is ripe with overblow ideas, just because something works of paper doesn't mean it's a practical solution.

We don't have enough time on this planet nor the resources to figure it out. Maybe it's a crutch to have this mindset, or maybe it's liberating to know we can't know everything. Statements like "Everything that can happen does happen" sound like painting with a broad brush to cover up the lack of actual detail.

My wide eyed awe currently has the notable addition of rolling eyes each time I read one of the new and fantastical studies that attempt to make sense of everything.. At a time where we obviously can't even make sense of what's happening inside biosphere one.

I have a good chuckle when I think about the science, manpower, and money behind each new discovery study.

You have to laugh about it or it will gnaw at your very soul ...or whatever it is we have guiding us through the vastness of the cosmos.

Do you buy into this latest report? Do you feel it's highly plausible or is it yet another report for the sake of churning out something to justify (a groups) existence.

Mind-Melting Study ... It's mind melting for a reason.

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#1

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/09/2019 11:08 AM

When you were young the scientific knowledge you were presented was fully tested and vetted. Now you are seeing the vetting process to make new scientific knowledge. Previously this process happened behind the walls of academia and their arcane journals and correspondence. Now even though the information discussed is still arcane, the vetting process happens in full public view with the help of the internet and the world wide web. The contradictory results you now notice are just part of the process.

You have to also remember many of the journals for public consumption quickly seize on the most radical new concepts with little to no comprehension of the original intent. The fable of Schroedinger's cat is just one example.

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#40
In reply to #1

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/13/2019 7:06 AM

Thanks redfred.. This idea is expounded on greatly in the subsequent replies. You got straight to the point right away. Thanks.

It's been a good read getting through the replies and has reminded me about the importance of repeated failure. Just ask any lottery winner.

I'm just irked.. or at least semi-irked by the way so much "scientific" reporting is deliberately distorted and comes across a factual to the average reader. At a time when science scores are low and interest in the sciences is low among many of our youth it doesn't help when we are bombarded with what amount to bougus (clickbait) viewpoints that poison the truth.

...ok.. okay.. that may be a bit over the top, but I've enlarged my viewpoint to show greater detail.

carry on. coffee time

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#50
In reply to #1

Re: The Quantum Universe

02/17/2019 1:14 AM

I like to keep it simple, because the theory of the 'big', and 'small' are so different, where do you start? " The universe is a song that responds while dancing" N. H. I personally like the A that is tuned to 432.

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#2

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/09/2019 11:32 AM

I will have to confess - I'm not able to picture a 5th dimension. I can accept that the idea exists as words or numbers, but if I try to form a mental image of it, the whole thing just collapses. So theories like this one don't really do anything for me. Physics is only fun if I can make some kind of movie out of it. Like your 'dust mote' idea... now that's a good one.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/09/2019 12:15 PM

I liked the Fifth Dimensions. Here's a picture for you.

You probably meant this theoretical and mathematical work.

I had an after-hours chat with a physicist many years back on four, five and higher dimensional work. He pointed out that most people grasp four-dimensional spacetime without a problem even though the multiple dimensions must use completely different standard units. Depending on your choice of coordinate systems (Cartesian, Polar, Spherical, etc.) the first three dimensions might not even use the same reference unit either. Therefore the standard unit for a fifth or higher dimension can just be different from the other three dimensions, like roll, pitch, angular momentum, energy or mass.

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#7
In reply to #3

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/09/2019 3:28 PM

Yes indeed a great band!

If the (other) fifth dimension could be explained as a purposeful entity I would have no problem with units that apply... a conceptual purpose though is the minimum I need to get a grasp.

Maybe the fifth is where all the dark matter is hiding? I did read the bit about gravitons, being indicated by LHC as furtively ducking into the fifth. But I don't really get why a fifth would be necessary to these (or other) particles. Just a cursory read of the explanations/speculations? in your link, I also don't get why something like magnetic fields/force would need another dimension to explain it...

Just getting back to the band, if the fifth dimension was posited as "immortal soul" I might be persuaded to think about (or listen to) that for an hour or two. Nothing religious, I just mean "awareness" or anything else that isn't perfectly happy confined to the existing four dimensions..... I could entertain it.

Considering I spent most of the day struggling with two dimensions.. just two! while the third had to be used for pacing back and forth, and the fourth trickled on at an alarming rate.. I could use the fifth as a distraction...

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#10
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Re: The Quantum Universe

01/10/2019 12:01 AM

"Maybe the fifth is where all the dark matter is hiding?" Well, some fifths are clear. But, don't try the whole fifth at once. Try it a shot at a time. When that dark matter gets converted to dark energy, it could overwhelm you if you overdo it (It's better with a mixer).

Other than that, it COULD take you to another dimension in funky-time.

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#41
In reply to #2

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/13/2019 7:09 AM

"The Dust Mote"

Before any good movie is a good book. I'd better get to it.

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#4

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/09/2019 1:15 PM

It has taken 6,000 years or so, for information to go from clay tablets to the WWW. How information is used is the power of brains. Dealing with the past, the present, and the future is quantum energy that the conscience mind is made of. Human minds can go back and forth in 'time' , and have always used information to explore the universe. Some exploration is real discovery, some exploration is just grant money. The cream rises to the top and human conscience will put it into the 'information' universe. Maybe the conscience mind is the universe.

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#42
In reply to #4

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/13/2019 7:14 AM

If the conscious is the universe then ... ok.. I'm not even going to start on that one.

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#44
In reply to #42

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/27/2019 11:33 AM

It was not posited in #4 that 'conscious mind' might be the universe.

"... Maybe the conscience mind is the universe. ...."

.

This would seem to argue for multiverse paradigm, as conscience varies so widely from individual to individual.

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#45
In reply to #44

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/27/2019 6:06 PM

And with varying amounts of adult beverage.

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#5

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/09/2019 1:40 PM

Humans, as far as we know, are new in this universe, relatively speaking. We can't be expected to know a lot, and certainly very little about things that don't register with our 5 senses. It's very hard to explain color to a person born blind, and that's from somebody who can see. Imagine if you too were born blind; where would the concept of color come from? Scientific inquiry? What a long road that would be.

We just discovered fire a few seconds ago...

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/09/2019 2:39 PM

I like being 'new' in this universe, and knowing what to do about energy and how to use it, would (I think) be the same even if we were 'old'. 'Life' is not new to the universe, in my estimation. Curiosity is the key, and resides in us, even if we are deaf and blind. I am glad that it is a long road, and that the future is full of purpose.

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#8

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/09/2019 11:26 PM

I'd just as soon believe in a tesseract as described by Heinlein. Seems more plausible to me.

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#9

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/09/2019 11:50 PM

I agree with most of what you said. This is not a new theory. I doubt if any of us will ever know if it is true. It reminds me that the great Stephen Hawking made the idiotic statement that scientists would soon know everything there is to know.

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#46
In reply to #9

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/27/2019 11:40 PM

"... Stephen Hawking made the idiotic statement that scientists would soon know everything there is to know...."

Can you provide a link documenting his stating such?

The closest I can find is:

"... “knowing the mind of God is knowing the laws of nature.”
“My prediction is that we will know the mind of God by the end of this century,”..."

.

Knowing the laws of nature by the end of the 21st century is different than soon knowing everything there is to know.

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#47
In reply to #46

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/28/2019 1:36 PM

I think it was on the TV show NOVA a few years ago. Maybe you will like these ones from brainyquote.com:

"There are grounds for cautious optimism that we may now be near the end of the search for the ultimate laws of nature."

"We think we have solved the mystery of creation. Maybe we should patent the universe and charge everyone royalties for their existence."

"God may exist, but science can explain the universe without the need for a creator."

"The past, like the future, is indefinite and exists only as a spectrum of possibilities."

"Nothing cannot exist forever."

"The missing link in cosmology is the nature of dark matter and dark energy."

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#48
In reply to #47

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/28/2019 3:13 PM

'.. the ultimate laws of nature'... wow... not even close IMO!!

You can tinker with DNA, but nobody's creating life here any time soon.

They can't even predict the weather fgs. ROFL

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#11

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/10/2019 4:30 AM

Somewhat analogous to the health/nutrition/lifestyle stories that appear in the press on an almost daily basis. Many of them contradictory.

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#12

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/10/2019 5:45 AM

A few weeks ago my daughter spent a couple of weeks trying to combine two fomulae into a unified single formula. It must have been important because her employers flew one of their mathematicians from Tel-Aviv to Manchester to assist. After working on the problem they concluded that their original premise was incorrect and that combination was not possible. When I asked about this 'failure' she commented that while they did not achieve their original aim they had learned much about what is not possible and they could apply this learning to other applications in the future so the time was not wasted. She also said that about 90% of this type of speculative work was unsuccessful. What you are observing in astronomical and battery research is this process being played out in public. What the scientists learn does not work is as important to future developments as the successes.

As a practical example. If when you switch on a machine it fails to start and the 'power on' light does not illuminate, you send for an electrician rather than a mechanic. This is an example of prior knowledge gleaned from failure. Mechanics are noted for their failure to fix 'power on light' problems.

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#24
In reply to #12

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 7:19 AM

'... she commented that while they did not achieve their original aim they had learned much about what is not possible and they could apply this learning ...'

Reminds me of a quote from Thomas Edison that would apply here, as well as just about all other developments, it goes something like this;

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."

And it is so true about what you learn from ways that don't work, but can work else where.

Here's another quote....

"One's worse experience, is usually your best, but it may not seem that way at the time your experiencing it." phoenix911

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#13

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/10/2019 7:22 AM

This is just another in a long line of guesses and theories.

Take the " Big Bang " for example.

The general idea was that a long time ago, there was a big empty space and then there was this big explosion that filled that empty space with stuff. Common questions :

A. What was in the empty space.

B. How big is/was the empty space.

C. Where did the stuff come from that filled the empty space.

D. What caused the explosion.

E. Etc.

Just like many other things, lots of guesses, which of course isn't really that bad. It gives us humans something to do and occupy our time.

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/10/2019 8:28 AM

When you say the general idea, I don't know whether you mean you share those ideas.

But (according to science) A and B are wrong. The big bang did not explode in pre-existing space, it created space as it went along.

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/10/2019 9:03 AM

Not only did the big bang create spacetime itself, but whatever, if anything that existed prior to our universe being created is outside of the spacetime of our universe. By definition, things outside of our universe do not affect things inside our universe

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/10/2019 12:42 PM

Here is a nugget of thought. Each dimension has a personality associated with it, and each dimension is in 'tune' with the personality. Life in this dimension has different tunes at its beginning, and beginning human life made music to explore for harmonics. The space in between notes is as important as the note. This search for perfection created the maths and symbols so others may follow. This quantum universe is what it is. Nicola Tesla, and others, put forth a formula which, I think, explains very well the frequency of this universe. 3, 6, 9, and vortex maths, fit into the narrative of the golden ratio and the creator. Out of all the frequencies in our dimention, earth finds itself in tune, or comfort zone. Harmonics and resonance came with this dimention, our perception of this dimension is just that, a perception. The search for harmony, in this orchestra, is the right way forward.

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#21
In reply to #15

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/10/2019 8:08 PM

Nothing has a beginning or ending, there is just a change of state. Yes, there was something before the start of our universe and there will be something long after it's gone.

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 6:36 AM

The second law of thermodynamics says the entropy is always increasing. Thus ultimately all matter and energy in the universe will become the random background heat of the universe. This is known as the Death Heat of the universe. But this status would closely resemble the conditions that are supposed to have existed prior to the big bang, so is the whole system cyclic and if so what lit the match? Now let us assume that some areas in the universe attain death heat sooner than others. Would gravity then be the strongest force in those areas? Would that create the conditions where instead of expanding that area of the universe started to contract. We know that some areas of the universe do contract, we call them black holes. There appears to be a maximum size/mass for black a hole. When it goes beyond that size (for instance when two black holes collide) does it then explode (similar to a localized big bang) and the expansion conditions return to those we observe in our sector of the universe. Is the universe analogous to a room filled with balloons where air can pass from one balloon to it's neighbor? As one expands another contracts. Hubble's theory that the universe is expanding would hold true for this part of the universe but not for the universe as a whole. The overall size of the universe would remain constant so the question of what the universe is expanding into goes away. The missing energy might be explained by the amount that resides in the contracting bits but my mathematics is not up to confirming that.

I am just flying a kite here, but if this turns out to be the correct solution, please can I have my name included on the Nobel Prize. I could use the cash.

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#20
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Re: The Quantum Universe

01/10/2019 8:02 PM

I'm just sharing the ideas as I was taught in school, things change, as examples: where are the moon bases ? Cars that get 100 mpg ? The longer lasting light bulb ? We'll the last one became the led.

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#17

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/10/2019 5:25 PM

You don't have to go to intergalactic space to find "stuff that we don't understand". Quantum physics has a lot of puzzles that can be reproduced in any physics laboratory.

Electrons shot at a barrier with two slots form a banded pattern on the screen behind the barrier. This happens even if the electrons are shot one at a time. We have formulas that tell us the probability an electron will appear at any particular location, but no one really understands how an electron can go through two slots to produce this pattern. This is just one of the quantum paradoxes. It gets worse!

We can "shut up and calculate" and get the right answer, but we are like an automobile driver that has no clue of what's under the hood or how an automobile works. It's not very satisfying.

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#18
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Re: The Quantum Universe

01/10/2019 6:06 PM

"We can "shut up and calculate" and get the right answer, but we are like an automobile driver that has no clue of what's under the hood or how an automobile works. It's not very satisfying."

If you think that's bad..... Every time a new child is born, another little alien has to be dealt with. Who really knows what's behind those little eyes?

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#19

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/10/2019 6:46 PM

I've wondered about this stuff too. My opinion is that the present theories have too many ifs, ands, buts, exceptions, maybes, etc. A proper theory should be "elegant;" that is, relatively simple--if we can call Einstein's Theory simple! Thus, we haven't gotten there yet, and may not be very close.

I've also wondered about 4 spatial dimensions (4 mutually perpendicular axes)--time would be a 5th dimension. You can explain most religious miracles with a 4-dimensional space. It's a mind stretcher!

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#25
In reply to #19

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 9:45 AM

Why must a proper theory be elegant? The universe is obviously very complicated and very puzzling and at times seemingly contradictory. Every time somebody tries to simplify the universe to a small set of rules comprehensible to anyone they demonstrably get it wrong.

As for 4 spatial dimensions, consider Edwin Abbott Abbott's book from over a century ago on precisely this idea of beings residing in fewer dimensions than we do here. I know the book is actually a political analysis masquerading as a geometry analysis but it appears that few people today can even understand the presented facade.

My point here is the multi-dimensional mathematical rules of matrix linear algebra does not care if anyone can envision what a tesseract looks like to us any more than Abbott's hypothetical plane limited triangle citizen can understand how a cube passing through that plane can change between a triangle and square depending on where the plane intersects.

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#26
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Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 10:43 AM

It's only elegant with the equations balance out... it's when the variables don’t match, are missing or misinterpreted that it becomes chaotic.

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#27
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Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 11:36 AM

I guess you don't like conversion constants.

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 11:46 AM

Only on projects when more then one unit-type of measurements/constances are being used simultaneously on different equations to achieve one overall goal.

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#29
In reply to #25

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 1:27 PM

I think there was some reference to this book in the 4-volume set World of Mathematics which I received in high school--late 1950s, so it's been around a while.

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#30
In reply to #25

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 2:55 PM

I firmly believe that the 'frequencies' of the universe are (and have been) finite. Searching for the maths that put these into terms that we can understand, has been elegantly put forth in the idea of 'hertz'. Cycles per second, has a speed associated with it and can be seen as a sign wave. When we tune a musical instrument, we do so at our choice, and usually to something comfortable. I think that the universe has different tunings dependent on where. Earth has, to me, a comfortable resonance (for a reason) of about 528 kh. This all is within our dimention, which passes through us. I could care less about the complex maths that have been written, listening puts things into a real perspective, and allows life to follow a course. Some 'out of tune ' courses don't end up well.

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#31
In reply to #25

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 5:12 PM

There could very well be more than 3 spatial dimensions and we wouldn't notice. The extra dimensions could be "rolled up". The classic example is a rope, which from a distance appears to be one-dimensional. But up close, the rope can be seen to have a surface.

"The ant's view of space

Only if you look closer you will notice that the rope has a certain circumference - a two-dimensional surface. Insects such as the aforementioned ant, which move on its cylindrical surface, will experience their surroundings as two-dimensional: at every location, they can move in two sets of directions, not just one: backwards and forwards along the rope (blue double arrow), but also orthogonal to that direction, along the rope's circumference (red double arrow):"

http://www.einstein-online.info/spotlights/hiding_extra_dimensions.1.html

My speculation: If a particle's path were not only through the 3 normal dimensions but also through one of these rolled up dimensions, it would appear to us to periodically appear and disappear. Could this explain why particles in motion have wavelike properties?

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 5:45 PM

As one who spent a large part of my career dealing with CNC machining and robotics I've often wondered why we don't describe the classic 6 degrees of freedom as 6 dimensions; 3 linear and 3 rotational.

The 3 linear are described as dimensions. Why not the 3 rotational?

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#34
In reply to #32

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 6:29 PM

Maybe because any given point can be described in any of 3 coordinate systems: Cartesian, Cylindrical, or Spherical. The latter 2 involve rotations.

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 6:45 PM

Well, come to think of it, in CNC, one common notation system uses X, Y, Z, I, J, K.

I, J, K actually defines a vector in which a milling tool is pointing with the X, Y, Z being the origin.

I suppose that's nothing more than a refinement of 3 dimensional space. I need to ponder that a bit more.

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#36
In reply to #32

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 7:29 PM

That would be a good example of 6-dimensional space, with 3 of infinite extent and 3 rolled up (e.g. 30 deg = 390 deg = 750 deg ...)

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#33
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Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 6:15 PM

But, "rolled up" around what? If it's rolled up around one of the x, y, or z axis of space, then it must come in a set of three (one for each axis). And still, I'm not sure how to avoid seeing that as just another place along one of the original 3 axes. How is this more than just an optical/spacial illusion? How can anything be rolled up around a one-dimensional line/axis? That's hard to imagine.

Where exactly is this extra "space" located? Does that "roll" contain the entire length & width of each axis (variable) according to the size of the universe?

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#37
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Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 9:21 PM

Dimensions can be either infinite or finite. A plane is 2-dimensional and infinite, a cylindrical surface is 2-dimensional with one dimension infinite and one finite, and a spherical surface has two dimensions that are finite. If a dimension is finite, moving in that direction, you come back to where you started, and that dimension is rolled up.

If there were another dimension rolled up, say to subatomic size, I think it would be undetectable.

Going back to the rope analogy, each point on the one-dimensional rope is really a circle around the rope.

Think of 3-dimensional space, only each point is really a tiny loop. That would be a single rolled-up dimension. If each point were really a tiny sphere, the would be two rolled-up dimensions. That's about as far as I can visualize!

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#38
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Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 10:01 PM

"...3-dimensional space, only each point is really a tiny loop."

Then that must mean there's an infinite number of dimensions? Each loop must be discrete unto itself, right? A loop can't be joined to another one adjacent to it and still be finite?

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#39
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Re: The Quantum Universe

01/12/2019 8:00 PM

All this just takes me back to my original conundrum, that an extra dimension (or ten) that are 'rolled up' doesn't seem purposeful enough to be realistic..

Unless of course, we're just waiting for 'someone/thing' to pop open the umbrella...

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#22

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/11/2019 4:02 AM

Aspirin or paracetamol, anyone? ��

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#43

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/14/2019 12:50 PM

For any number of vectors in 3-dimensional space, only three orthogonally independent unit vectors are needed to (reach) any real point in that 3-D space, because all other vectors are dependent vectors.

So, maybe ''dimension'' isn't the proper thing with which to be concerned...

Such vector-triples could be viewed as components of a generic thing called ''space'', abbreviatable by ''S'', which could be associatable with things called ''real space'' and ''imaginary space'' , which could in turn, be abbreviated by ''R'' and ''I'', respectively...

When describing things changing with time, those things could be described as existing in ''Time-space'', abreviatable as ''T'', also with real and imaginary time components...

When describing any one of the several forms of energy, they could each be described as a particular form of ''Energy-space'', abbreviatable as ''E'', also with real and imaginary components, such as electrical energies, etc...

And, who's to say that there isn't such a thing as ''Mass-space'', abbreviatable as ''M''...

And so on, with other dimensions, (some yet to be discovered ?) which could be similarly abbreviated as ''O'' ...

Thus, it could be more appropriate to speak of independent, and dependent, sub-dimensions of a ''S-T-E-M-O-R-I-continium'', and that we still have relatively very little understanding of of how they really ''work''...

So, don't be surprised if (Hobb's Bosons) subsequently turn out to have sub-particles, etc...

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#49

Re: The Quantum Universe

01/28/2019 3:56 PM

"the quantum universe ,...Its mind melting for a reason". That's why I go back to music as a way to put things into perspective. (Einstien and others used it). It is the search for perfection. Frequency, hertz and ratios have collected us all, like it or not. Maybe the human conscience are the only dimensions that really count.

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#51

Re: The Quantum Universe

02/17/2019 1:25 AM

Another simple way to look at an expanding universe is to imagine, " for the balloon to get bigger, the lungs have to get smaller ". N. H.

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#52
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Re: The Quantum Universe

02/17/2019 11:01 AM

Niel Harris?

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#53
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Re: The Quantum Universe

02/17/2019 1:45 PM

Nissim Haramein

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#54
In reply to #53

Re: The Quantum Universe

02/17/2019 9:25 PM

I presume you are talking about Nassim Harramein.

This explains so very much.

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#55
In reply to #54

Re: The Quantum Universe

02/17/2019 11:05 PM

Nassim (the hobbitt), and Higgs, the Boson are in quite a tussle. But I think that by building bigger and bigger machines to find smaller and smaller things, the cost is not in mr. Bosons favor.

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