BigHoleLowTechYardBattery

Yeh..maybe ..ish...but you still have to charge it up!

Similarly you can get some power out of a potato or a lemon but it's not going to be very efficient....

Mind it's not to say that there isn't some biological way of making power out there...(other than squirrels running around a generator.... )

Del

Thanks, I was thinking of coupling to a solar panel for recharging, and have considered that vinegar would leach lime from straight concrete so as to demand another inert coating of the vessel.

Still I do wonder if anyone has done this.

My thinking is that high tech lithium ion batteries, or cells are of course the zenith, but that a big hole in the ground with the right stuff in it might be nice to have.

I knew a guy who had a camp run off a surplus submarine battery.

Where he got it and how he charged it was not known to me.

It is likely he charged it off a gas run generator.

Vinegar is cheap.

Determining the size of the vessel to produce voltage enough that would run an inverter off of cheap stuff is my interest.

Of course as well Sunwise is a strong company making energy efficient battery and solar combinations, but they are expensive and I'm just wondering if it would work to dig a hole, line it, and stick an anode and cathode in it.

I've not tried, nor do I intend to try and train squirrels. I can't even get the cats to listen when I ask them not to kill birds.

Russell Day

Monsanto Corp. is currently genetically-engineering much more efficient potatoes and lemons.

After comment from Del Cat, I now wonder if you could turn a septic tank into a battery?

...hmmmm... so long as you're aiming at some type of *alkaline* cell

Sounds like a great idea to try out in small scale first. I would have only one worry.

county/city inspectors/epa/water department/ types who like to write out all kinds of very very expensive tickets for poluting ground water..... even with vinagar so you might want to check with somebody.

"Back - To - Basics" ~~~

Your assertion is fundamentally correct, that the basic/fundamental object that we've come to call a "battery" is nothing more than a corrosion cell... (certainly, the newer, higher tech versions meld corrosion cell science with capacitor design).

The major flaw with your design/concept is using an alkaline container for an acidic electrolyte... Counterproductive. (How about a glass-lined tank?)

Galvanic Tables exist for various materials in a plethora of different electrolyte environments. These provide fundamental data regarding how much of that "free" (Gibb's) energy you'll be able to extract from any such anode/cathode combination. And, of course, series & parallel circuits apply to cells such as those being described. The big trick is finding a readily available "cheap" source for replacing the consumed electrode(s) ... the anodes. *Hey*... another way to recycle aluminum cans!

Otherwise, finding an anode/cathode combination that lends itself to reversal of the corrosion reaction via "recharging", such as what takes place in a lead/acid battery (multiple corrosion cells in series) would be necessary.

With DC lights, radios, etc already available ... you could get SOME usage even without an inverter!

Ok you've opened a can of worms. How do you make a battery out of an aluminum can? This maybe be off subject but everyone has been talking about batteries. This sounds like a promising kind of battery. Tell us more.

Look-up the (unbelievable!) percentage of our nation's energy that gets consumed each year for processing bauxite into aluminum...

All that ("Gibb's") free energy in aluminum is what makes it so energetic for use in fireworks, solid rocket propellant, and (alloyed with zinc, indium, and/or other elements to discourage passivation) as anodes on offshore structures & pipelines.

Hook a (cleaned) alum can to one terminal of your meter, and a piece of (welders) carbon plate to the other, and dip 'em in synthetic seawater (salt)... the larger the area exposed to the electrolyte, the greater the usable current can be drawn.

But will this make a PRACTICAL battery? What do you mean by "carbon plate"? Are you talking about a plate of carbon (mostly C ) or carbon steel (mostly Fe)?

What chemical reactions are involved at the two electrodes? What is the voltage difference? What occurs at each electrode, consumption of the base metal, or plating deposition, non-sticking precipitation, and/or outgassing?

Battery chemistry can be a tricky thing.

I certainly wasn't implying that this would make a "Practical" battery, by any means! The sum-total of my various posts (on THIS thread as well as the similar one here at CR4) is aimed solely at re-focusing the original posters towards the fundamentals of corrosion cell technology (what Mr. Ray-o-Vac turned into a "Hi-Tech-Device" for mass marketing purposes!).

Absolutely! there is a lot more to the science, nowadays. But, "Heaven Forbid", let's not contribute to propagating the FORGETTING of (may I say) "our roots" ...! My implication, by suggesting "hooking... to a meter..." was :

"Do those old Mr. Wizard experiments for yourself, and re-learn the basics... then, take-it-from-there..."

If everyone would read a little bit of what's already been taught to us (for over 150 yrs!) and is "already out there", posted for us.

... then, there would be far fewer repetitive, inane remarks being made, and more new, fresh material being discussed!

Best Regards ~

But I enjoy your inane remarks!

aw-right... ok... I'll play...

Post # 91 ~

" Ar-Ar-Ar-Ar-Arrrrr...!"

So you want it glass-lined? No problem, just cover the concrete 'hole' with GRP and resin.

I agree with ndt-tom, but let me add to be careful of by-products of the chemical reaction which may cause outgassing or precipitation buildup, either during discharge or, if you do recharge, during the recharge cycle. The chemical reaction that takes place may not always result in simply an exchange of ions between the electrolyte and the anode/cathode.

In some cases you may see a solid precipitate that simply falls to the bottom of the tank by gravity. With enough buildup during successive cycles this solid could possibly short out your electrodes or displace enough electrolyte to reduce efficiency/yield or life of the battery. The solid could also be considered hazardous and be very expensive to handle and dispose of when you eventually have to clean it up.

In other cases, outgassing that produces dangerous or toxic gases may occur. The gases may be flammable, it may poison plants or animals in the surrounding area. Many gases are heavier than air and may not dissipate without a strong wind. Depending on the layout of the surrounding terrain, gravity may cause a flow of this gas directly into your dwelling or into its basement, just waiting for the unsuspecting person to be overcome by its toxicity.

And if you use a sealed system, outgassing could cause a pressure buildup that results in a catastrophic rupture, spewing electrolyte and possibly solid materials for great distances.

I like the idea of home-brewing your own battery system, just make sure you know the complete chemical reaction(s) that take place before you commit to using certain chemicals.

SAFETY FIRST!

Thanks, I'll now be on the lookout for Aquarium Tanks and materials. So far your comments have been most helpful and I look forward to hearing of others successes if I don't get to it first myself.

"And remember, folks. When you think batteries, think BigOl'Hole!!!"

Is this why my batteries keep exploding when I've used the infamous "batt-aid" tablets?? Did no end of harm to my duke electronics.Darn!

Bear in mind that if you make a huge cell in something like a septic tank, you have just one cell, so the voltage would be (with lead acid for an example) 2 volts. To get a usable voltage you'd need multiple cells, which would mean many cell dividers, at which point you might start thinking that it would be easier to build this on land instead of underground.

I like the fish tank idea. Relatively inexpensive. Impervious to most chemicals. Easy inspection/detection/repair of non-functioning cells. Put the whole thing in one of those plastic storage sheds out back. Run the power cable underground and no one will know you have anything but yard implements inside! Cover its roof with solar cells (you are keeping the mower battery charged of course!) and have a nice trickle-charger for voltage maintenance and recharging after periodic use. Could be a great way to have emergency power for your house without a fossil fuel generator. Downside would be limited replenishment vs. generator with virtually no limit (re-fill tank).

In this context, some questions pop up:

1. What kind of capacity might be available (order of magnitude) for such a 12volt system? 1000 Amp-hrs., 10,000 Amp-hrs., 100,000 Amp-hrs.?
2. Would it be better to stay with 12volt standard or go to 24volts for lower amperage?
3. Any advantage/disadvantage to using gelled electrolyte in a stationary macro-battery versus liquid?

Let us say your system has a capacity of 10,000 Amp-hrs. That would mean you could operate with 100 amps for 100 hours (over 4 days). That would provide an average power of about 1.2 kilowatts of DC. Going through an DC-AC power inverter with a 120 VAC output @ 85% efficiency yields around 8.5 amps of 120VAC current. Please note these are assumptions and best guesses.

So, would this be a practical alternative to an AC generator for short power outages?

I think it could be. A practical approach might be to hardwire only vital appliances (refrigerator, microwave oven, telephone (i.e. if required such as cable-based phones), furnace fan and controls (for gas/oil furnaces), via a suitable inverter and the breaker box. Providing 12 volt outlets for each primary living space (kitchen, family room, major bedroom(s), etc. would allow recharging and use of portable devices (emergency lights, cell phones, laptops, radios, portable TV's etc.) which generally use much less power than their standard size counterparts so as to limit the power drain on the battery. Many of these same portable devices could be recharged in-vehicle during normal travel time, lessening the load on the emergency system.

Would it be an alternative for continuous use? Only if you were very frugal in your power consumption and could provide a better recharging system than roof-top solar cells, say, a wind- or water-powered generator. The battery could provide convenient or necessary peak load capacity that the recharging system might lack. Consider this the home energy analog to the hybrid vehicles now travelling our roads.

Any advantage/disadvantage to using gelled electrolyte in a stationary macro-battery versus liquid?

-----

Probably the most common problem with gelled-electrolyte batteries is with the formation of gas pockets in the gel during periods of high current draw. The pockets typically form at the surface of the plates, reducing the effective plate area and increasing the cell's internal resistance thereby.

I would think that with a large, stationary battery, a liquid electrolyte might prove more advantageous. A liquid electrolyte would be easier to replace, for example, or to be removed completely should the plates or other parts of the battery require maintenance.

Excellent points, Eu. Thanks!

Dear STL Engineer,

Your wonderful redirection of my thoughts from a hole in the ground to an aquarium tank with anodes and cathodes in a liquid like vinegar is the best set of ideas in reaction to my posits.

Should you get around to making a list and providing instructions I would feel compelled to assemble the thing.

The septictank aside is a dead end unless septic tanks are built as batteries from the get go. Thanks RSD

The big fun used to be turning the family aquarium into a high-voltage capacitor or a high-voltage link in a circuit. The fish remained alive and well, and none the wiser.

I could provide the fish with alternative accomodation..? (chomp chomp)

I don't know about vinegar. It's acid content is Acetic Acid and I don't really know what reversible chemical reactions would work with that which would allow you to use some economical electrode materials.

On the other hand, while recognizing the hazards of working with them, lead and sulfuric acid are both readily available, the lead-acid battery chemistry is well known and proved, and there are plenty of accessory devices available to aid in servicing, such as specific gravity testers, etc.

However, building an effective battery systems is not easy-peasy, like cutting a few boards and framing up a utility shed. Check out the Wikipedia article to see how lead acid battery technology originated, and advanced over the years. You may find it to be more trouble and cost than it is worth to "roll your own", especially when more effective and more efficient solutions are available over the counter, just waiting for you to plunk down a few (hundred or thousand?) bucks and load them up in your pickup truck! A lot of hams I know swear by marine deep cycle batteries for emergency power (Ham Radios can consume several kilowatts of power at legal limits), but there may be even better configurations tailored for people with alternate energy solutions trying to live "off the grid".

Now if you want to try something just for the novelty/fun of making your own, go for it! Just don't expect too much from it, especially considering how much you invest in it!

When I started my study on submarine batteries I did go to Wikepedia, and somehow I ended up here. Part of my thought was that vinegar, or Acetic Acid, which I know better as Stop Bath would be more available to the poor than Sulfuric Acid. I did much like your idea of using the aquarium tank since the conditions inside could be seen. Another reason I liked your suggestions was that aquarium tanks or "fish tanks" are fairly common. I think Ndt Tom also made some interesting and helpful comments. The outgassing issues certainly nix the septic tank battery system unless the septic tank is designed from the get go as a battery since simply driving a cathode and anode in it would not produce much for the trouble. When I worked with old DC 4s and DC 6s those batteries were right strong and large and we charged them in drafty sheds specifically so the hydrogen produced had no place to build up.

The problems of design now appear to be for the fishtank battery to determine proper safe cell dividers and sealant glues, plus deciding on the electrolite. I lean toward vinegar since it is common to grocery stories, and safer to handle. The anode and cathode are the second problem to decide on. I had no idea that aluminum would be of use and thought it was copper and zinc strips. (Hereby I reveal a certain ignorance that I will work to correct.) If aluminum will work as anode and cathode then its ubiquity highly recommends it.

By Low Tech, I really did mean low tech, and if recharging from even another source such as a solar panel is not an option for the poor, and changing the electrolite is the only recharging option, then that becomes a good thing, if it is the cheapest way to keep operating.

The paper cells I read about might be the best thing to stack up for the poor if they are cheap and come with a systems instruction.

Thank you all, even you jokers. My father was a Theater Director and Drama teacher and in retrospect I wish I had gone to MIT instead of wandering around writing poetry and taking pictures.

As far as the original Forum Thread I am staying on topic by saying that the overall goal that I posited was to create a Big Hole Low Tech Battery. My failure is that I cannot make a safe or effective one by myself because of my apparent current ignorance of all factors.

I still hope you accept that I accept that the glass tank suggestion you made seems most practical for a multiplicity of reasons as I so far understand them.

Safety: gas would not build up and explode if the top was vented or just left open.

Maintainence would be enabled and condition of the interior and exterior would be easy to ascertain.

Materials are common.

We could use your idea on Mars.

Safety: gas would not build up and explode if the top was vented or just left open.

In actuality, the methane you'd be venting from anearobic decomposition might be worth more than any eletrolytic energy ??????????????????

Well then, maybe burn that right there to run a small steam turbine generator aye?

As far as vessel cells I considered that though fishtanks are somewhat common, glass bottles and plastic bottles were more common and solve my cell separation problem more simply than gluing separators into the fish tank, plus may be sturdy enough to even allow whatever electolyte available. Maybe even plastic bottles would work but my image of the old milkbottle holers the milkmen used to have to carry milkbottles and the glass milkbottles wired up and filled with the plates and whatever works looked nice in my head.

Read the Lead Acid piece on Wikepedia again, wish I really knew chemistry better and appreciate the help on my little thought project.

Friend of mine said her neighbor bought 5 submarine batteries at a State Auction and got good use out of them for his house. - an aside that made me wonder why the State of NC would have submarine batteries.

(remembered that I ended up here after going to the Varta site after I had found out that the German submarine battery company had turned into Varta.) Wondered why you don't see submarine battery powered cars, there must be a good reason that I am ignorant of.

Friend of mine said her neighbor bought 5 submarine batteries at a State Auction and got good use out of them for his house. - an aside that made me wonder why the State of NC would have submarine batteries.

Perhaps the North Carolina Naval Militia still has a few of these Rebel Submarines in its inventory! Do not confuse these with the earlier CSS Hunley, which had no engine, but was propelled by the crew cranking a windlass to turn the screw. This Rebel Submarine is a full steamship for surface travel, and uses electric power to travel underwater. Note the deck is "hermetically closed" Let's hope so!

ROFLMAO

REBEL SUBMARINE BATTERY.

A M. OLIVIER DE JALIN sends to the French Le Monde Illustre drawings of a submarine vessel which we reproduce on this page, abridging his description. There has just been finished, he says, at Mobile a very curious little vessel, designed by Mr. Anstilt, which seems capable of destroying any ship in the world. It is of iron, 23 yards long. The interior is divided longitudinally by a partition into two portions: in the upper one are the machinery, armament, rudders, and reservoirs of compressed air; in the lower are chambers to hold air or water, as the case may demand, coal-bunkers, provision-lockers, and the like. On the deck, which is hermetically closed, are pipes for discharging air and steam, a smoke-stack, and a look-out, the upper part of which is of thick glass. The motive-power is a screw, worked either by steam or by electricity. At the stern is an ordinary rudder; at the bows another rudder, working on a horizontal axis, the object of which is to raise or lower the vessel. Now when no enemy is in sight the air-chambers are filled, and the vessel is managed like any other steamer. But when an enemy is in view the air-chambers are filled with water; down goes the vessel, and nobody is the wiser for its presence. Her perpendicular course is determined by the bow rudder, just as her horizontal course is regulated by her stern rudder. Turn it one way, and up she goes; turn it the other, and down she sinks. A pressure-gauge shows just the depth to which she has at any moment sunk. The man in the glass look-out governs the movement of the vessel. If it is sunk three feet below the surface it is invisible. On each side of the deck are placed iron cases filled with powder, joined two-and-two by chains of proper length. If a vessel lying at anchor is to be attacked, the submarine boat dives down, lets slip one of these twin torpedoes directly under the enemy; these rise by their specific gravity, and hug the enemy, one on each side, but kept from escape by the chain which, passing under the keel, unites them. The submarine, having accomplished her work, backs off to a safe distance, explodes these torpedoes by means of a galvanic battery, and up goes the enemy, in more pieces than one can well count. If a vessel under sail or steam is to be assaulted, the submarine dives down and lies hidden right under the track of her foe; then at the exact moment loosens a torpedo furnished with a percussion apparatus; the enemy strikes this, explodes it, and up she goes past all hope of redemption. The submarine, in the mean time, has dived down into the water so deep as to he quite safe from the shock which she has occasioned. "I can't stop to describe to you," concludes M. Olivier de Jalin, "the system of pumps to drive out the foul air, the air and water-pipes by means of which, with the aid of the compressed air, the air-tanks may in a few moments be filled with (Next page)

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/civil-war/1864/january/rebel-submarine.htm

Perhaps we should have a CR4 X prize for the best 'junk yard battery'

Rules ..

1. Cell.

2. must be made of household / easilly available materials.

3. Winner is best mAh from full charge.

4. In the case of a tie the one with the cheapest, most freely avilable components wins.

5. Anyone blowing themselves or anyone else up is disqualified.

6. Prize 10,000 GOOZ cards from Hendrik's special stash...or maybe some of that Homemade cider from the bog.

What do you think guys....? maybe we could make a real contibution to something? (If only the humour balance of the world)

I think the winner should not be determined by the highes mAh rating of the cell. After all, a cell could be constructed with a relatively low voltage, using very expensive materials (Gold, silver, platinum?), yet have a very high mAh capacity. Since maximum energy storage for a minimum cost is our true goal, and energy is Power multiplied by time, our winner should be the highest Watt-hrs. per $ (or whatever currency you wish). This would be determined by the Voltage of the cell multiplied by Ah current capacity, then divided by the total estimated cost to manufacture a minimum EOQ (Economic Order Quantity), or in other words, production costs rather than simply prototype costs.

That would be something I would like to see!

Our winner should be the highest Watt-hrs. per $ .

That's ok... but I was assuming the $ would tend towards zero....

I'm not sure that gold/silver/ platinum count as common household junk...

I don't think Mrs STL Eng would appriciate you turning here jewelery into anode & cathode.

So it's (mAh x V)/$

(where $=1 for junk and increases for anything that actually needs buying)

Anyone out there going to make a cell? I'll make an alluminium can/copper nail cat piss cell, but only if someone else is going to bother to play.

I don't know that glass aquariums and many gallons of vinegar count as junk either. There is a real cost attached to appropriating such materials. The precious metals reference was just that, for reference only. Unless your house and yard is a REAL junkyard (I know most of our resemble that state, but in reality lack the quantity of a real one) acquiring any materials will have a real cost, so why not look at it as a development project that could be duplicate for less than the initial prototyping?

On the other hand, if your goal is to produce only one such battery, for yourself only, and you have sufficient quantity of said junk on hand, go for it!

What if you don't have a backyard? Is it OK to use someone else's?

I like the contest idea.

I also like the parameters of practical, and easily duplicatable.

I think the parameter of a standardly useful voltage would be good.

I posted some on the septic tank aside with where I had gotten after the fish tank, that had turned into a wire harness of cathodes and anodes for glass milk bottles.

So far the Big Hole part of the title of this discussion has not proved practical, or safe and I think it is agreed that somewhere between aluminium beer cans and glass bottles is a good solution.

I have to admit the glass bottle cells became attractive when I realized they would be fairly safe for even the sulphuric acid. Those thick coke bottles of old are hard to break. Of course one would want to put a pan underneath the battery same as you do for water heaters.

(I also considered cutting sections of PVC 4" pipe and filling them with the wires and electrolyte, but then figured glass would better handle all possible electrolytes.)

Sans solar recharging I imagine the old bicycle method.

(I haven't fully accepted the aluminum can and the carbon plate design, carbon plates are not common in my life. - I have run carbon rods together in Brutes, arc lights, and remember the rods were somewhat fragile. It's been so long since I ran one of those I can't remember the power source. Seems like you had to run it off a rectifier like a Zenon.)

Aluminum and copper are most common and if they work as the anode and cathode, that would recommend them.

Because of the sort of brain I have, I'm sort of for a design contest prior to a design and build contest. Maybe like we vote for the 3 best designs and then see which ones built actually perform to the parameters?

Since I started the discussion I would feel obliged actually to build the winning design, which would get me off the hook since I am weak with chemistry and mathematics, plus sometimes I can't spell very well.

Of course I would also feel obliged to give my construction of the winning design to the design winner.

Since I have come to look at the glass bottle wire harness cells grouped together my next question was, how big and how much of everything? Should I go for Milk Bottles, or what bottle is most common internationally? Plastic bottles are very common far as I know, but what sort and size would be effective and safe?

If the carbon for the can battery could be simply charcoal, then I would lean more towards it.

If using vinegar or acetic acid as the eletrolyte or sulphric acid, would the plastic be limited to only acetic acid?

Safe/effective/& made of internationally common materials, are the parameters I suggest.

How about this? : as far as a parameter it has to run a battery powered Tv?

At the Tribal Hut the TV far from grid electricity working from piss water to bring the world to the curious isolated bands and tribes. Everybody needs a TV.

Well, maybe not.

Re: "I haven't fully accepted the aluminum can and the carbon plate design, carbon plates are not common in my life..."

I ordered one of the welder's carbon plates (link given in post 31), and it was clearly evident that it was made from some type of hardwood-board ... carbonized thru-&-thru via a special kiln, no doubt.

It's been sliced and put thru the gamut of testing here (previously), proving itself more noble than copper (...guess that's why the ol' carbon-zinc batteries hung around so many years).

The problem that probably can't be resolved (oops, did I say that!?) is coming-up with a paste/electrolyte solution that will permit any kind of re-charge to be feasible with these 'free' material (anode/cathode) combinations. However, if a 'worthy' prize is announced for the winning "amp-hrs/$" combo, irrespective of rechargeability, I'm ready to build a kiln from scrap-junk and start hacking at that dead oak trunk out back ... <grin>!

Hey tom!

Carbon plates made from wood may be great for welding, but for battery electrodes don't you want something more porous with a higher surface area? A good material for that would be carbon fiber made from carbonized woven polymer cloth. This material is used in the aerospace industry to make carbon composites, when layed up in layers with a suitable epoxy or other adhesive/binder material, so the individual fibers are quite strong, at least strong enough for these purposes even if not so for welding. It is also used as a heat resistant material to contain splashes of molten metal and in brake lining manufacture.

Here is one source (search their catalog for "carbon fiber"):

http://www.mcmaster.com/

Ive set up the Junk yard battery contest here

If you post a theoretical design..maybe someone else would make it.

Verm.... link up with Stinky Pete if you need some junk!

Go to it lads...

Oh, my dog fell into the hole in my backyard,
And my wife is takin' it mighty hard.
Well the fuses started to blow,
And she missed her favorite show,
And poor ol' Spot is a lookin' pretty chard!

Woof! Woof!