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Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/08/2019 6:47 AM

Please check my calculations. If correct, I see a hazard in charging an EV in five minutes. Using a 30kwh battery as an example, 30x1000x60/5=360000 watts. I=W/V, I=360000/220 volts(voltage supplied to residence)=1636 amps. That would require one hellofva big conductor! The cost of increasing the voltage at the residence to get the amperage down would be very costly. The connection would be very dangerous. Even if done at a charging station, it’s going to take a lot of energy to charge the batteries in a such a short time and would cause safety concerns.

What do ya think?

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#1

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/08/2019 7:14 AM

Any <...safety concerns...> can be obviated by correct design.

The <...lot of energy...> is the same whatever the time it takes to complete the charge. However, the smaller the charge time, the greater are both the ambition and the size of the supply cables were one charging off the mains.

One might not want to be <...charging an EV in five minutes...> upon returning to <...the residence...> when it might ordinarily take place overnight. Were <...five minutes...> to be the critical parameter, then this might be achieved more easily in principle by swapping out the spent battery pack for a fully charged replacement already laying there, especially if the charge were provided principally by captured sunlight at <...the residence...> while the <...EV...> were absent.

Most homes in the UK are fed with either an 80A or 100A supply, at 230V single phase. Delivering <...30kWh...> without upgrading the mains supply therefore takes no less than 30000/230/100 ≈ 1.3h or 80min, depending on whatever else is hanging off the supply at the time that charging takes place.

It is therefore easier to change expectations rather than the supply conductors.

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#2

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/08/2019 10:25 AM

Do not confuse "filling up" battery charge with "blowing up" battery charge...difference is time...need time for internal heat buildup/accumulation to dissipate.

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#3

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/08/2019 10:45 AM

Your 35 KWH is equivalent to about 100 mile range, equivalent to 3 - 4 gal of gasoline for an ICE car.

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/08/07/tesla-model-3-rated-126-mpge-long-range-option/

A gallon of gasoline has 32KWH of energy, 115,000,000 J, and a gas pump typically pumps 4 gallons/min, which works out to about 2.1 MW power transfer. A gas pump seems like a more efficient and safer way to transfer that much energy.

If all electric vehicles are the future, another problem is building an infrastructure to replace the existing infrastructure. It would require generation and transfer of the equivalent electric power to every charging station, the number of which would have to be equivalent to the present number of gas stations.

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#11
In reply to #3

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/09/2019 5:06 AM

Please clarify gallon. Is this a US gallon. 3.7 litres (6.6 pints), or a real world gallon: 8 pints, (4.5 litres)?

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#15
In reply to #11

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/09/2019 1:51 PM

Perhaps you need to define "pint". I'm from and in the US, and definitely accustomed to the US Gallon being equal to 4 quarts, 8 pints, or 16 cups.

According to the converter in my computer, a pint is 0.47317647 liter. This does make a US gallon equal to 3.785... liters.

All the fuel I've ever purchased outside the US (in Europe and South America) was sold by the liter, not by any form of 'gallon'.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/09/2019 2:23 PM

I am used to Imperial gallons = 8 pints, or 4 quarts at 4.5 litres. I also got a short gallon of 3.78 litres for the US, hence my clarification request. Thanks.

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#29
In reply to #11

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 1:23 PM

US Gallon.

1 US Gallon is officially equivalent to 33.41 kWh. Various blends have different energy content (especially when diluted with alcohol) and I just rounded it down to 32 kWh. It wasn't intended to be an exact calculation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

Between US and imperial fluid measures, ounces are almost the same. A US pint is 16 fluid ounces whereas an Imperial pint is 20 fluid ounces. (Apparently the saying "A pint's a pound the world around" is not true!). A US gallon is 8 US pints or 128 fluid ounces. An Imperial gallon is 8 imperial pints or 160 fluid ounces. A US quart is 2 US pints or 32 fluid ounces. An imperial quart is 2 Imperial pints or 40 fluid ounces.

Unit of Measurement

Imperial System

Metric Equivalent

U.S. System

Metric Equivalent

1 ounce1 (fluid) oz.28.41 mL1 (fluid) oz.29.57 mL
1 gill5 (fluid) oz.142.07 mLNot commonly used
1 cupNot commonly used8 (fluid) oz.236.59 mL
1 pint20 (fluid) oz.568.26 mL16 (fluid) oz.473.18 mL
1 quart40 (fluid) oz.1.137 L32 (fluid) oz.946.36 mL
1 gallon160 (fluid) oz.4.546 L128 (fluid) oz.3.785

https://opentextbc.ca/basickitchenandfoodservicemanagement/chapter/imperial-and-u-s-systems-of-measurement/

I suppose the best policy is to just deal in metric units to avoid confusion.

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#4

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/08/2019 10:53 AM

Well the Tesla supercharger charges at 400v and 250 amps....and the home charger is 240v at 80 amps...so that's probably as good as it gets for now....fast charging doesn't seem to be good for the batteries and constant supercharging is said to shorten the battery life significantly, at $12k a pop to replace the battery bank, it's best to charge at a rate that is best for the batteries, not your time schedule....If you're in that big of a hurry you might choose a hybrid instead...

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/08/2019 1:28 PM
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#9
In reply to #6

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/08/2019 4:29 PM

Those look like lithium polymer batteries to me....sounds like a scam, my guess is somebody is making a lot money...this from 2014...

http://time.com/52651/storedot-another-promising-far-off-answer-to-smartphone-battery-problems/

Cheap website, no detailed information, all the earmarks of a scam....

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#32
In reply to #4

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 3:21 PM

Yeah, apparently the faster you charge, the faster you get to replace the batteries...

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#5

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/08/2019 12:53 PM

Your calculations look OK.However I think the rates mentioned are impractical. A battery swap-out station would be more practical,but even that would require a tremendous infrastructure upgrade.nationwide and world wide. therefor,I do not see all electric vehicle dominating for a very long time,excluding some type of unforeseen energy source,perhaps fusion generation once H3 harvesting from the moon is in full production,to power the charging stations or perhaps even the vehicles themselves one day. Hybrids will probably be the next stage for a long time. I can see their dominance in city traffic,and when in the many miles-long parking lots like the I5. IMHO,for the foreseeable future,petrol fuel is king.Cleaner burning fuels,more efficient engines,more efficient vehicle shapes but still,petrol will dominate.

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#7

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/08/2019 1:47 PM

PAPADOC,

You have touched on the basic weakness of electric cars today which is that massive battery. The best charging method is a slow charge that will limit heat buildup and use a 20 to 40 amp charger that fits a home electrical supply. This works fine for a commuter vehicle, not so well on longer trips. One early proposal was for electric vehicles to have batteries that could be switched out for a charged one. Unfortunately the 1200 lb batteries make this difficult.

With today's technology, the most sensible arrangement is to have two cars; one electric commuter car that can be charged overnight and one fossil fueled long range car that can use existing gas stations for long trips.

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/08/2019 3:55 PM

Battery swaps are done regularly in industry on electric fork lifts,pallet trucks,etc. They are on rollers.They are rolled out of the vehicle,and a fully charged one is rolled in.Simple and easy. They are usually color coded by shift to make certain that they are changed every shift to lengthen battery life. A lot of the newer batteries are huge single cells,wired together instead of conventional construction. It has been at least 15 years since I was involved in industry,so I imagine things have advanced even more by now.

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/08/2019 6:42 PM

As far as I can see this is not a feasible model, you would have to charge at least a couple hundred dollars to change out a battery pack vs a few dollars to just charge it in place....and this would be even with one kind of battery pack that was easily accessible...just doesn't work

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#12
In reply to #8

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/09/2019 12:37 PM

Tesla proposed and demonstrated automated battery swaps with the model S a few years back but I haven't seen much about it recently. The basic design of the Tesla battery enclosure did and may still include the details needed for swapping the battery from below.

My guess is the private EV market never demanded it strongly enough for swaps to be viable. It might make sense for EV cabs and other commercial vehicles where you could get close to 24/7 use out of the vehicle and cover the cost for the infrastructure at a central garage.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/09/2019 1:32 PM

A battery that could be easily and quickly swapped out would require a heavy duty, well designed mounting bracket and connector. It would have to maintain alignment through impacts with curbs and road debris. The connector would have to be a quick disconnect weatherproof type. A breach of the watertightness would admit salt-laden water and lead to rapid deterioration.

A standardized battery would improve economies of scale, but how difficult would standardizing be? Remember how long it took to standardize Blue Tooth?

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/09/2019 1:45 PM

..."Plugged into a Supercharger, a Model S battery can be charged to 80% capacity in just 40 minutes, free of charge. On the other hand, a battery swap is by appointment only and could cost the driver between $60 and $80. "The Superchargers are fast enough," Musk told investors.Jun 27, 2015"...

https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-battery-swapping-plan-isnt-working-out-2015-6

Not saying it's impossible, just that it's not economically feasible in most cases...better to have two cars with one on charge while the other is in service...

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#17
In reply to #7

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 5:50 AM

With the autonomous vehicle revolution almost nigh, the need to own a <...car...> will subside:

  • One might envisage a future where one taps a few buttons in an "app", and the right vehicle arrives to take the app user autonomously and automatically to the chosen destination. Once the journey is designated complete and the user has disembarked, it then goes autonomously to its next user or to a charging point as applicable.

Think in terms of an automatic, driverless taxi, with no need for driver training, licensing, taxing or insurance by the individual using it.

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#19
In reply to #17

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 6:41 AM

I am curious, beside your points to save cost on road tax, insurance, etc, why would anyone wish to go with that being subtly forced on Mr Pedestrian to take up not owning a car? There are some freedoms still are enjoyed by most. Many years ago people had horse, no tax, no insurances etc, People were free to own a horse and cart, It is and was there right to do so. So why now would Mr Pedestrian be so keen to hand over his tight to own a vehicle of his or her choice. Its easy to give away ones rights, not so easy to get them back without high costs and hurdles. If one looks at the current market, hydrogen cell vehicles are pushing ahead with many big manufacturers i.e Nissan, GM, Toyota, Honda etc. It is certainly far more practical and efficient than electric and batteries. Where will they dump the waste batteries as they certainly will have scrappage to dump or recycle. I also ask, when buying a electric vehicle, what are you buying? A car, A battery, A car shell? The shell has no value without the battery, the battery has no value without the shell so if the battery is dud, after your use, what is your trade value worth?

A Renault Twizzy is expensive and costly with a £70 per month battery rental price, So for a small 2 seater commuter to do 100km on a charge, 2nd hand price around £4000.00, one does not even own the battery, but own a useless vehicle if the battery is not rented or if not paid for, repossessed.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 7:20 AM

Maybe this is part of the future of transport:====================================================================================================================================================== https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-first-electrified-road-for-charging-vehicles-opens-in-sweden========================================================================================================================================================= Sorry about the need to cut and paste,but I will not be dictated to by a company that automatically changes and disables all of your desktop shortcut-to-internet icons (without permission) unless you use their product as the default application.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 8:00 AM

Freedom is just an ancient word these days. If you don't comply, we have the means to restrict your freedom. And the Guardian is the worst. Its called GDPR: The General Data Protection Regulation 2016/679 is a regulation in EU law on data protection and privacy for all individuals within the European Union and the European Economic Area. It also addresses the export of personal data outside the EU and EEA areas.

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#23
In reply to #20

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 8:33 AM

In Sweden they have a trail system on a road with an overhead line, such as the old trolley buses of the 1950-60's. To assist trucks and buses recharge batteries. Not many buses or trucks are equipped with the pantograph to connect to the line. It is only approximately 2km in length. Pretty much a trial that proved nothing, but I am sure will be hailed as a wonder to behold. I remember the trolley buses when I was a child and they were soon made redundant. Pity the world was short sighted as we have gone backwards, but the utilities Co. love it, they sell more electric and pass on all costs. I for one like driving a vehicle. One of the few joys left in life where one is actually in control of your life. However, I like the hydrogen cell, cleaner, cheaper, easy to make and cost effective.And it has been around just as long as electric vehicles. (1839 Sir William Robert Grove. Electric vehicle 1832, Robert Anderson. Horse, before 900BC Hamish McTavish,Scotland). A horse; free parking, no road tax, 4x4 drive, 0-30km/h in 20 seconds, pretty much self maintaining and feeding, no spares needed, no plugging in. Hmm! It sounds worth while. You have the right to choose in life.....your coffee, toothpaste, soap. And that's it!---------------- https://www.scania.com/group/en/worlds-first-electric-road-opens-in-sweden-2/

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 8:43 AM

The link I provided is to a system embedded in the roadway.I foresee lots of problems with this system,but I am sure they are aware and are considering corrective methods.I agree that hydrogen fuel cells may be the future,and the only problem I see is the storage of hydrogen. It's such a small molecule that it requires special containers.There is the option of producing it on demand by chemical processes,which seems to be more viable.There are fuel cells that produce electrical energy from alcohol,propane and other hydrocarbons at higher densities than batteries.

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 8:58 AM

Yep, another road hazard for the motorcyclist to take a spill with. No consideration at all and no consideration that my new horse might get its foot stuck and get electrocuted. Now I need to buy accessories for my horse, insulated horse shoes, size 10. Maybe Amazon will have some.

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#28
In reply to #20

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 1:14 PM
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#34
In reply to #19

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 4:36 PM

<..forced...to...not owning a car...>? Some might consider it an opportunity.

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#33
In reply to #17

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 3:25 PM

I have to agree on the autonomous, on-demand vehicles. Car ownership is very expensive and the utilization is very low. Studies have shown that when traffic is computer controlled, traffic jams are eliminated or reduced. Also, door to door demand service means less congestion around transit hubs.

The problem of fueling those vehicles remains. Nothing so far can come close to fossil fuels with their high energy density and installed infrastructure.

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#18
In reply to #7

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 6:16 AM

Well, it looks like the fuel cell powered vehicles will be the vehicle of the future. It has a short refueling time. And, the hydrogen is readily available. As a matter of fact, the chlorine plant I worked in years ago vented most of the hydrogen it produced. I’m sure chlorine producers would like to sell the hydrogen they produce. And, of course, it can be produced by electrolysis using carbon free produced electricity. There’s already refueling stations on the west coast. As the Germans predicted may years ago, the fuel cell powered vehicle is the vehicle of the future. During the interim period before refueling stations are readily available, for a long trip, carry an extra tank of hydrogen.

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#22

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 8:05 AM

I understand the need for standardization,but it is much easier to standardize any product in the beginning of development than after the tech has matured. The NTSC television standard was THE standard for many years,but advances in the technology yielded many variations,still the line scanning was the basic original standard,a concept invented by a farmer. Now digital seems to be the new wave for data transmission,and yet it still allows for an infinite customization of each device. Perhaps _out-the-bottom is not the best method,requiring a pit below the parked car.Why not sideways,out of the trunk space? Industrial batteries are swapped out sideways in less than a minute.Manually. Automating the system would speed it up. Then the batteries are charged at a decent rate. These industrial vehicles and batteries take a beating every minute of their operation cycle. The total cost of ownership was much cheaper than LP,Gas,or diesel versions. I understand there will be major infrastructure changes required with providing the capacity of interstate stations to provide enough power to keep a viable supply on hand. The USA consumes about 168 million gallons of gasoline per year.That is a lot of energy to be replaced by batteries.Not going to happen overnight.It will require more generation capacity,and distribution services. Each charging station would require substations similar to a medium sized industry. That is why i do not see battery technology as anything more than a stop-gap method. My previous suggestion of wireless charging on an as needed basis while in motion on the highway,and at stop lights at intersections also seems viable,with fees automatically charged according to usage. Feedback from some respondents said it would never work,but now some countries are using it via resonant coupling. The door is wide open for new methods and concepts,so I do not discourage anyone form putting forth their ideas. There is no such thing as a stupid question,except for the one not asked.

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#26
In reply to #22

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 11:54 AM

The problem I see with interchangeable batteries is condition control. You buy a brand new car with a brand new battery. You take a short trip, and at your destination the battery has, say 25% charge, you go to the local station, and they change it out for one that has been used many times, sometimes having been taken all the way down to 5%, and thus damaged. That replacement battery probably won't get you home...

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 12:22 PM

As the site is partially operational, its impossible to post a link properly. Concept in Sweden: http://powerswap.se/concept/=============== http://powerswap.se/

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#30
In reply to #27

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 1:25 PM

I had to use only http://powerswap.se/concept/ to get to the site.

Since it is an insecure site, I didn't spend much time there, although I did scroll down to the bottom.

I gather that the battery company would own the batteries, rather than the car owner, so that would eliminate some of the concern regarding battery condition, but each battery would have to have some manner of communicating its available energy content (Not just the current voltage) to the vehicle, in order for the car and its operator to have some idea of range.

I live 600m above sea level, and virtually all of the places I commonly visit are at lower altitudes; many of them are only a few meters above sea level, so getting home could be a major problem.

Finally, the vehicles shown have their batteries so low to the ground, that I'm not sure they could even pass over a hump between the street and my driveway.

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#35
In reply to #30

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/11/2019 7:32 AM

"Since it is an insecure site" That is most interesting, I obtain the same results when I visit a web page from the US or UK, yet the site is safe on my side. So you actually get a notice saying the site is unsafe? I am not great computer tech, but I wonder is this the software detecting this or is this some algorithm embedded to force one to use only local sites? I also notice the batteries hung low to the ground but I would be more concerned with the connection points becoming worn and loose after many removals and inserts. Over time contact points weaken and a loose connections means a dead vehicle. ===============https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78b67l_yxUc

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#36
In reply to #35

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/11/2019 11:48 AM

I don't specifically recall whether I got any kind of notification, although I frequently do.

The simple fact that there is no "s" after "http" in the website address tells me that it is not a secure site. The link you just provided for youtube does have that "s".

How do you know that the site is safe "on your side"?

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/11/2019 1:00 PM

Interesting. We don't have that on local sites, but I did notice it since you mentioned on some You Tube sites. Even on cr4 I notice it has https. Normally we get a notification stating the site is not secure so I get off it immediately. I do know we cannot access US Google outside the US from Europe. We are blocked even using the http://www.google.com/ncr But thanks for that bit of educational information, appreciated and I shall keep my eyes open in future.

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#42
In reply to #30

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/14/2019 6:26 AM

Monitoring of individual cells is possible,and currently used to determine the cell and the battery's condition. Specific gravity of each cell is also monitored. A rule of thumb is if the voltage drops by more that 25% under load,the battery needs to be recharged.There are many alternatives to Lithium and lead/acid batteries,such as Redox(flow)batteries. Imagine going in to a service station and having your battery electrolytes changed,like filling up with gas. The Redox batteries are constantly evolving and may one day be applicable to vehicles. Still,the main problem persists:It will take many Tera watts of electricity to replace petroleum.It has to be produced somewhere. Fission,Fusion,Solar,Wind,Tides,Osmotic pressure,hydroelectric.                              TANSTAAFL.       

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#31
In reply to #22

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/10/2019 2:16 PM

"The USA consumes about 168 million gallons of gasoline per year."

The US consumes more than that in 12 hours.

Our current consumption rate is about 142 billion gallons annually.

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#38
In reply to #31

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/13/2019 1:37 PM

Haha... I think we probably spill more than that...In 2018 we had 272 million vehicles on the road in the US, do the math...

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#39
In reply to #38

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/13/2019 4:47 PM

One small fact, the US allows more in fuel evaporation than some African and European countries use as fuel consumption in one year.

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#40

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/13/2019 7:22 PM

Illinois is going to charge a $1000 a year registration fee for electric vehicles, cuz they don't pay their fair share of gas taxes...I guess the party is over....

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-electric-vehicle-fee-illinois-20190509-story.html

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/14/2019 4:51 AM

Ah, bribery, extortion and corruption. Lovely, It still works.

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#43
In reply to #41

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/14/2019 1:39 PM

POLITICS: A two part word.Poly= many-- Ticks=Blood sucking Parasite

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#44
In reply to #41

Re: Fast Charging on EV Batteries

05/14/2019 5:23 PM

https://news.motors.co.uk/news/audi-renews-hydrogen-powertrain-development-programme/---------------------------------Seems hydrogen is still a good choice.

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