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Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/01/2007 6:09 PM

I run a high end cnc grinding machine using oil based - yes, flammable coolant. The coolant is old and needs replacing however it will cost over $3000.00 to replace plus disposal of old oil will add another $1000. The machine has a paper type primary and cartridge type secondary filtration system built in and still works very well however the oil is old and thick and in need of "servicing". Can I thin the oil, and have it cleaned and reconditioned? The oil companies I have spoke to are frowning on this, but I dont know if it is just them wanting to sell me new oil. My tank holds about 80 gallons. I will obviously change with new if it is the only option - all be it whinning all the way! Alternatives please!!!???

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#1

Re: filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/01/2007 6:29 PM

Garbage in = Garbage out. If you value your equipment and your products, change the oil. I don't know if it's your only option, but I think you owe it to your company and your customers to give yourself the best opportunity to succeed.

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#2

Re: filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/02/2007 7:31 AM

Change your oil. You may also want to look into better filtration for your application.

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#3

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/02/2007 11:05 PM

For that kind of money to just do maintenances, does that include wages paid? I would seriously look to alternatives it just might be worth the time and money and the next turn-around might cost even more.

joshua

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#4

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/02/2007 11:06 PM

so how long do you think that oil should last?

That the cutting additives are eternal?

That there is no oxidation or other degradation?

it is legal to burn waste oil for heat in us except 'm told for Mass.

milo

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#5

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/02/2007 11:49 PM

Calculate the cost of loosing a day or 2 production (if you are unlucky maybe calculate a week or 2) + the cost of the repair (parts and manpower) if the machine breaks+ the oil change and disposal of the oil. Try to evaluate the rest of the life of the oil by adding new one... calculate the risk VS the cost...

If you change the oil it will cost you 4000$ divide this by the number of day you have peace of mind using the machine... then compare with risk vs maintenance... see if it worthed the risk.... for 4000$??? shop around for more efficient filter or better grade oil... this is a smart way to save... get 3 quotes for the oil change and compare...

My 2 cents: Maintenance should not be consider as an expense... it actually can save lot of (future) money... and give you the opportunity to check the entiere machine and process and maybe find a better way to do things...

Change the oil...

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#6

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/03/2007 2:24 AM

Many automotive repair and parts businesses are required by law to receive waste oil for recycling for free. I have one locally that uses it to heat during the winter. At worst you may have to dispose of it a little at a time in small containers to quto parts retailers. I save all my 1 gallon jugs and cans for just this purpose.

I agree with the others that say it should be changed. Old oil is not only a detriment to your machine and your parts but it is a health hazard. I use a water soluble oil called Hocut 97. It is great in my milling machine and never stinks even after 3 years usage, and sometimes it just sits for months. This is a good sign that it resists bacteria growth. I just tried an alternative brand and I am very sorry. I will be changing back ASAP.

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#7

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/03/2007 2:28 AM

I agree --- Change The Oil!!!!

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#8

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/03/2007 8:56 AM

The main question was asked; how old is it? The other question is; how much way oil was entered into the system over the life of the cutting oil? Is it straight oil? Who says you have to use straight oil, the OEM of the tool, or the end user? Have you tried Soluable oil and water? What is the material of the part? Where are you located?

You have plenty of options.

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#9

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/03/2007 11:45 AM

Let's take a look at it from a different angle.

We use Moose MilkĀ® water soluble oil. It amounts to fractions of the total value of work done with it. around 1/1000% (per-mil)or maybe even less. I don't really know what type of exotic oil you use, but I can't believe it can be much more that. Let's go to the extreme, and say 1%. So, for a $300.000.00 worth of production work you are not willing to invest in $3000.00 in preventive maintenance? I wouldn't think twice.

I can only call it bad production/maintenance decision.

And BTW: Extensive use would only make your oil thinner and not thicker as it breaks down. look again at your filtering system. if you do not use any other additives. We use a none barrier filter system (Cyclone type) with auto purging. works very good.

My 5 cents worth of...

Wangito.

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#10

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/03/2007 12:16 PM

They use centrifuges on board ships to keep the oil clean of metallic debris. Machine would cost 3 times that of the oil. Might want to rent one first make sure its a viable option. As far as disposal I have used Cleanburn used oil furnaces to heat a shop, granted it was used motor and hyd. oil. Cheap way to heat a shop though. You can charge to remove the oil for others and use it as heating fuel. Pays for itself pretty quick.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/03/2007 10:19 PM

My memory of ships was that the used a centrifuge to remove oil and other solids and waste products from say bilge water, so that they could pump the now mostly clean water over the side.....and not ship it to the next port and pay to get it removed....

Pumping bilges anywhere around the UK island, without removing such oils etc.. nowadays results in very big fines. All done through a sophisticated system of checks and controls, including satellite scanning I believe!!!!!

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/04/2007 9:05 AM

A company i worked for was looking into a centrifuge for waste oil recycling. The machine in question was designed for just such an application and i was told it was used on larger ships to reclaim the oil. The salesman claimed that it would even separate good oil from used up stock. The theory was that they could run said units while in route and remove the useless stuff while adding new. Kinda a constant changing. Plus no buildup of carbon in the oil. Now i must say this is all second hand info. Pretty good second hand i think .... but i have never actually seen it work.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/04/2007 9:22 AM

Probably they can do more today than my time, but the biggest problem on a ship with regard to the environment and being picked up by a spy satelite, even in the 1960s, was traces of oil on the sea surface....that is why all oil had to be removed from Bilge water....

When we are talking water, we are talking about many 1000s of gallons on a relatively small ship, a modern Tanker has that times 100!! Or more!!

I think that your informant might have been overdoing it a bit as I cannot see oil changing its specific gravity just because it is old! Maybe someone else can chime in on that point with a bit more modern info....

You need a specific gravity change to allow a centrifuge to be able to determine the difference and separate them out, the heaviest liquid goes to the outside (usually water in an oil/water mixture), the lighter to the inside. They can both then be removed by special "Scoops" (as a word to use! Not the right one I feel......)....

Setting up the centrifuge needed a trained person, who shot the results back into the bilge till he had it going properly and when the two components were separate, he placed the oil into a holding tank (or it was burned to heat the steam) and the clean water went overboard....

A useful link about Centrifuges is at:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifuge

The info there tends to support my previous statements completely.

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#14

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/04/2007 10:40 AM

Change it. It also sounds like you have sludge build-up throughout the system. You will need to clean the system thoroughly before putting in new oil.

If you are a high-end shop, then you should be using a high-end product. I recommend Schaeffer Oil. They are the oldest lubricant manyfacturer in the U.S. (1839). Their products usually last 2-4 times as long as the major oil suppliers.

You can call them at 216-401-1845 for their recommendations.

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#15

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/04/2007 1:33 PM

Just like mentioned by other members , changing is best option , if it is costing you that amount , it may be that worth , you did not mentioned time you replaced it last or this is your first replacement , you can clean the oil and recondition it from third party shop , but it won`t bring complete properties to original upto certain point and just extend it for some more lapses or time

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#16

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/05/2007 7:52 AM

Question to ask is how much is your equipment worth and how much will your down time cost you? Seems foolish to me if you replace the oil, but do nothing to protect it and extend its life.

You can pick up a brand new depth filtration cart for the same price as your oil change. These filtration systems will remove both water and particulate at the same time and at least double the life of your oil. Don't trust pleated filters that claim to be depth type - I made that mistake and now have a $1,500.00 paper weight.

We use a system now that keeps our oil clean and dry. This cuts down on the amount of time we spend in maintenance. This allows us to put maintenance personel on machines that need it.

True your oil won't last "forever" but if you keep it clean and dry you inhibit oxidation and extend the life.

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#17

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/05/2007 7:57 AM

Jimmy,

You have a couple of alternatives. You can replace the paper filters with stainless steel elements capable of higher differential pressure that will enable you to filter the thicker coolant. These elements would be more expensive but would be cleanable/reusable. The second alternative would be to filter the thicker coolant through a secondary external filter system (i.e. portable unit) but you would eventually end up with the same problem. As a third alternative, you could drum off some of the thicker coolant and replace it with new fluid thus reducing the viscosity a bit and then continue to use the paper filters until you reach the same point with the new mixture.

My company currently cleans filters for a number of LARGE CNC and hydraulic users. I, myself, worked for a major metallic filter manufacturer for some 10 years before getting into the cleaning services business specializing in filtration and filtration related problems.

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#18

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/05/2007 9:31 AM

Now that you have heard from the learned ones, go ahead and change the oil first. Then look at you filteration system to prolong the life of your oil. Peace of mind is most important here. It is just like your car, you chnage oil before you go on a long trip and change again when you come back. There should not be any ifs and buts now. Just do it and you will thank all the ones who recommended to you to change the oil.

Nadeem Butt

Houston, TX

1052007

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#19

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/05/2007 10:12 AM

Electro static filtration was not mentioned. We use it a a side stream filter on out 2500gal reserviors on large injection molding machines. The advantage of electro static is that it also removes oxidized oil molecules, thus eliminating varnish on the servo valves. We have never wholesale replaced the oil in any of our machines, only added periodically as requirted to keep it at the correct level. I should also mention htat we temperature control the oil with heaters and coolers. Over heating the oil will lead to thermal breakdown. The oldest machine we have is now 17 yrs in production.

On the machining side, we use water soluble synthetic oils in the 4~6% and 9~11% range. Again, we have never replaced coolant, only monitored and added to keep the correct concentration. We also control PH and bacteria, as well as tramp oil. Our machining coolant reserviors vary from 3000 gal up to 80,000 gal. We have a total of 9 coolant systems in the plant. We also have pure oil systems for honing and gun drilling. The gun drilling is being replaced with water based as a fire reduction measure. A broken gun drill and petrol oil don't mix well. The honig oil is filered by paper media and magnetic separators.

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#20

Re: Filtration/reconditioning of cutting oil

11/06/2007 6:19 PM

Question, would you take your car to the auto repair shop, and they put in 2nd hand oil to "cut costs" then you find out when something goes wrong with your car?

don't you factor in the costs of maintenance and service of the machine into the price of the parts that are made? the CNC machine shop that we have used has almost paid for a new machine with all the work we have given them over the past 2 years, we are looking for a CNC for ourselves.

Are you also looking at using 2nd hand filters or "Cheap" ones as replacements?

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Andy Germany (2); Anonymous Poster (2); askjoet (1); CSM Engineer (1); garyceng (1); kmiku604 (2); Madmax1997 (1); Milo (1); mutantone (1); Nadeem0430 (1); Snaketails (1); THEOILGUY55 (1); user-deleted-5 (1); vikas (1); wangito (1); wgh71 (2)

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