sea-powered energy production

I have done a bit of browsing on this subject. Try the web " DOE hydro workshop ", plenty of info there, and I think it would be a good idea to register.

Regards JD.

I agree, someone with such ambitious plans ought to register.....

I wonder about the effect on atmospheric dynamics if wind turbines over populate the world, I also wonder what the effect on the oceans will be if tidal systems prove to be workable....

If we conclude that CO2 as an unintended consequence of energy demand has in a very short historical period had a negative impact on global atmospheric conditions (please I am not trying to start another global warming debate, just go with me for a minute), nuclear produces waste that is a problem, and river based hydro power causes damage to sensitive ecosystems, then what are the unintended consequences of Solar, Wind, Tidal, Hydrogen, energy systems as an alternative?

Is tidal energy a realistic option? Is there a realistic energy option?

This link is pretty comprehensive, http://hydropower.inel.gov/hydrokinetic_wave/pdfs/hydro_workshop_proceedings_13feb06.pdf

answers some questions but not all, I believe that sea currents are not well understood, but considered to be closely linked to the weather. So suggest reading the above link.

Regards JD.

Wow. I am not sure where to start; so let me just say: "Good thread". The only way that I know to approach an answer to it, is an outline form. Please read through, as I am not trying to nay-say you; only dealing with one of MANY issues that you have brought forward.

1. I have no idea which "previous thread" (that is "pettering out ".), you are talking about. Please specify.

2. I am begging you, please don't use the phrase "free energy", to describe what you are trying to accomplish. Wave, wind, thermal, and radiated (sunlight) energy, are not free. But you already know that, don't you. "Labor omnia vincit is a common Latin phrase and the state motto of Oklahoma. It means "labor conquers all things"". Otherwise, you would not be trying to recruit "brain-power"; the "coin of the realm" on this website. Nor would you be seeking "funding, and, possible full scale research and eventually commercialisation". I applaud your sentiment that: "Greed however is not and must not be the driver". But is that correct? There is a lot to recommend that statement; but that "dog won't hunt" in the real, practical, and political world. Don't forget, THAT is where you primarily have to sell the idea.

3. "I have become convinced that there is huge potential and latent brain-power that is otherwise wasted , unused or dissipated in rocking chair energy ." DAMN! That hurts! It also has the bitter taste of the truth to it.

4. "The world, and our environment, are heading for disasters . We, as Engineers, are not the only ones that are daily confronted with that fact ." True. But we are the ones that actually have the ABILITY, to change that fact. We don't always have the say in WHAT is developed. But we do have some influence, even if it means taking another job were we CAN work on the things that we think are important.

Sorry, if it seems like I was attacking you; that was not my intent. But I must point out that the "practical" points of life, the universe, and everything, are foremost in the minds of the crowd that you are preaching to. The exigencies of every day life are a MUST for most people. Including engineers.

That being said: If there is a way to take care their families, I think that a lot of people on this site would be willing to be involved; if this is not a pie-in-the-sky deal. Including me. But don't talk to me about "contracts" that enforce intellectual property rights. A recent thread about "Gaia" has the lawyers winning-out over cockroaches 2:1.

I agree that we need to do something. The only thing that peaks my interest more, is finding a way to get mankind off this planet; and make sure that no localized disaster wipes out the race. My family first, my community, my country, my planet/race. Depending on the importance, sometimes those priorities change. But that is the usual order.

As far as the technical aspect, maybe I am prejudiced; but mechanical devices are prone to mechanical failure. They are however, MUCH more efficient than the photovoltaics that are out ther currently (10-20%).

If you are sincere, then state who you are. You are not the normal "guest", looking for some advise. You have posted and posed a serious inquiry.

Thank you all for the prompt responses.

1.Clearly I am not a professional recruitng Agent. Nor do I think that this thread is the appropriate venue for employment Agencies or their staff.

2.My thoughts in respect to the protection of contributors is guided by a desire (possible to equate to what others might describe : an altruistic motive ) the additional aim of which is to : avoid bickering or sour grapes from any future ill-advised or intemperate contributor. Particularly should any positive commercial outcome emerge.

3.Thank you for the indications of related webbsites .These I will carefully analyse. There are countless avenues of : research , methods and trials of extracting energy from the oceans. I am particularly sensitive to methods that have the potential to marr and indeed create more damage than benefits. Readily I associate myself to your combined concerns of residual and or permanent ecological scars.

In conclusion what I seek is an initial positive indication . If this positively emerges then , hopefully we may commence putting reality in what others could dismiss as " lofty ideals and/or day dreaming " . Let me assure you that I am awed at the goals and I have no illusions as to the tasks which could lie ahead .

As Confucius is quoted as saying : The longest journey commences with the first step

Best Regards,

Labor Omnia Vincit.

NB1. the above is my family motto. It originates in two phrases from the : Georgiques de Virgile ( see:I. 144-145 ) roughly translated as :" determined work conquers all" . Thank you for informing us all that it has its place in Oklahoma !

2.reference to an earlier thread was one that originated from a contributor who had what appeared to be a perpetual energy device. It seemed to me that the energy device generated less energy than that created from the comments that followed by all Contributors.

You'll get a positive response from me as soon as you are better defined than 'Guest'!!

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your question. I have previously answered this generally by indicating (on this thread )that anyone wishing to contact me can do so by giving their e-mail to which I will respond immediately. My reservations on publishing my name and or e-mail address is simple and should not be misinterpreted, Thank you

Labor Omnia Vincit

\

Thank you.I appreciate your comments The signature and its motto has so far been quite adequate to identify myself from others. I will later on consider changing this. At this stage however I am quite frankly reluctant to generally expose my identity.Those who have responded, as suggested ,have been immediately contacted.

Best Regards,

Labor Omnia Vincit

Thank you for signing on - I was about to remove this thread from my list...

Not that I have anything profound to add, but I do hope to learn a thing or two. I'll keep watching.

Dick

As Confucius is quoted as saying : The longest journey commences with the first step

Did he say this on this:

A journey of 1000 miles begins but, with a single step.

My wife is an admirer of Confucius and for the last 26 years I'm hearing this.

if my wife is wrong then she beautifully interpreted it with her own words.

I agree that we need to do something.

Agreed lets start a team like - " GEE" (group energy engineers) or whatever.

How? The guy with the most input becomes the Team Manager(TM). we exchnge all our e-mail addresses. We send the TM our background and experience and areas of specialization(Boilers/Steam/Automation/Electronics/Electrical/Power/Control Valves etc). The TM channels it out as groups expert in each field (whos who) and sends us a copy.

Then we know who to contact via e-mail when we need to solve our questions on anything engineering. We can help ourselves and others too.

Or am I talking nonsense. Just an idea.

This is potentially a great and worthwhile use of us 'rocking chair' engineers brain power.

Do we just get straight down to it and come up with the ideas to 'save mankind' or is this a meeting to convene a meeting?

I generally like these threads as it lets engineers freely give help to the needy without getting bound up in paper work and red tape, or secure the bean counters ledgers! I, for one, am not too worried if someone makes a buck out of an idea that I helped develop.

When do we get started?

Dear Sir,

Because of the number ( and rapidity ) of response I may have missed answering yours.

The answer is :If you are interested lets hear from you with an e-mail contact to which I will respond (as I have to most, hopefully, all :others).

Best Regards

Labor Omnia Vincit.

The initial overview of existing technology will be the most important starting point. There are currently only a handful of systems that are considered viable and of those only a few are actually undergoing agressive testing. Many decisions about what and how to convert: heaving motion of waves, pitching motion, tidal or shoreline, etc. Also, many decisions about how to transfer the energy and in what form.

Thank you as well as others for the comments:

Precisely because there is little forward, practical ( and technically successfull )projects that I believe increased efforts are needed . This must widely and loudly be proclaimed . At the same time as wakening the collective brain-power that is lying iddle wherever it can be found and re-energised to help meeting such challenge.

This whole thing is likely to be a very long haul .So please think before you leave your comfort zone . Be sure that you do want to : " get back down in the arena".

Thanks for the GEE acronym . I think its a beauty ( Simply hope General Electric 's Lawyers do not come after all of us.)

PS When decided send me an e-mail address . I will fortwith respond.Tks.

Labor Omnia Vincit.

Thanks for the GEE acronym . I think its a beauty ( Simply hope General Electric 's Lawyers do not come after all of us.)

They are "GE" thats why I added an extra `E' and I am not Ducon but DUCON Energy Management Systems (Duja Consultants) so Ducon (Dust Contractors) Lawyers can't come after me. Nuk, Nuk, Nuk......

If you click on my name you will find my e-mail address.

I got it , really

Good point.

The best type of Wave / Tidal enery machine would depend on the site. Maybe that's one of the problems?

Difficult to design a 'one size fits all' solution. In the UK we have a huge tidal range in some places and very little in others. Same with waves...

I'm always ready to contribute...but tend to be driven by specific problems rather than the overall goal.

'I'm in'

Del

To Del the Cat :

Thank you for your comment. As you may see by my (todays ) comments there may be some delay until I can approach this initiative differently. I will keep you informed and will be delighted to communicate with you.

Best Regards,

Labor Omnia Vincit,

Dear Guest ,

Please register ,as more guest will respond to this thread , we , members will not be able to distinguish between you and guest , most engineers , scientist won`t believe free energy , most possibly term used , free energy(so called) may be there but we won`t observe it ,or avoid it , ...

Sea powered energy is a commendable project[s], The best ones I have seen are tidal bores which can be used in both directions given suitable bays .

Non polluting energy production should be pursued at every opportunity.

Unfortunately I fear if our needs were totally catered for by these methods the human race would do nothing to limit its population growth and would eventually starve to death in front of a warm fire or comfortable air conditioner, assuming the governments of the day do not decide to cull us instead.

Sorry to be negative about this but look at the state of the world at the moment with impending natural disasters etc yet the worlds super powers will not get together to try and ease these problems, just imagine what a difference could be made if the money spent on war could be used to promote food and energy projects!

A good example of government intractability is in Sydney Australia they are going ahead with a multi billion dollar desalination plant {which non of the public wanted} instead of other water reclamation projects. It is going to consume enormous amounts of electricity and pump CO2 into the air, it is going to put the cost of water up. Environmentally it is a totally bad project, as such most governments will only take environmentally friendly power production to keep on doing unfriendly things

This sounds like a "preacher" proposition bet to me!

Let's all sing hymns and we can all go to heaven, you pay.

The most laudable schemes founder; and this is a soapbox for
rhetorical do gooders? What chance? (prove me wrong.)

Firstly, call me sceptical, or at least agnostic, but I think it goes
against human nature to co-operate with inventions / disclosures?

By definition inventors are 1, "out there" on their own, doing their
own "thing" and motivated by 2, the second law, their reward(s).
(this invariably involves money, even with "for satisfaction" protests.)

You (guest) are suggesting we ALL give freely our ideas? Is this realistic?
Imagine: You suggest the pooling of ideas - very altruistic; but if I
modify your idea, patent/make it, and get a fortune, how will you react?

If this (laudable?) idea is to work AT ALL, a very firm legal framework,
would need to be put in place; and one NOT easily acceptable to many.

Structurally "team effort" and "inventors" can be contradictory at
best, and are very likely, to end in antagonism and long legality suits.
(even family relatives go to court over "minor" issues; e.g. wills)

For example: In return for a share in any reward; which itself is already
a contentious issue; i.e. whatever may become acceptable, money,
fame, satisfaction, etc.; would members be required to sign away their
personal rights, for a common good? However:

Would there be any exclusions? Do members retain the right to invent
"elsewhere" for themselves? Are all their efforts (spin-offs) for the team?

This is before the members (team) actually start on inventions or ideas.
(quaintly, and innocuously, described as "ideas" for the masses?)

Do I have faith? Simply: Yes; sign me up; but - please show me a workable
legal document first please, one that we (members) can agree is fair and
equitable to all, (the members) - without prejudicing any of their future rights.

United we CAN stand, divided we fall? (or at least struggle.)

jt.

Yes, there's a free soapbox waiting for you on: http://www.mfnb.at

You are different , but appreciable , i like it

Well said jt , we had a discussion on this intellectual property topic some days ago , inventors did have support upto assistance level , from there on most of them made sure to protect it legally and that was there right , success does bring contreversy between partners when its a big hit! team effort ***** , This generous forum does share ideas , does`nt it , just post it you get loads of comments flowing in from jokes , experiance , knowledge , and real solutions preceisly , just about any thing , so why to make groups and how do we trust , we don`t know there real names , multinationality , authenticity, there faces ,the w/ man that posted this doesn`t even bother for identification(not exactly anything other than that) and membership and is looking for personnel email and contacts from members side , why only 4/5 members

Dear Sir,

I think I have answered most of your points (through answers to others) except perhaps that of the size of the group.

May I say that it is very difficult unless you have a Secretary to answer promptly and properly e-mails that "fly- in" on a thread such as this one which could well grow exponentially. So that initial figure may well quickly dissolve. Time will tell.

Best Regards,

Labor Omnia Vincit.

Dear Sir,

Thank you for the various suggestions admonitions and reserves. The reality is that I have no objection to most of what you say. From the outset and if you wish to have a role whether legal or in the framing of a constitution, please feel free to volunteer . Indeed, may I suggest that you eventually take charge of that section. Your concerns regarding IP protection are very important and definitely are planned in my mind to be addressed early in the peace.

FYI I recall that (yes , a long time ago ! ) when I used to go camping with my college student friends that there was a solid rule . This was that " The one who complained the most about the food or the cooks deficiencies , was : ipso-facto, made to be the cook from then on." . That invitation remains open.

It is possible that the notice board suggestion could be usefull. However my belief is that retired or semi-retired engineers (I include therein : the Civil Engineers) are with their mind at peace, possibly likely to be :

-more reflective,

-possibly more inventive,with their sound past experience,

-animated (again: possibly) by a desire (before :sunset) to help their fellow men .

Let me re-assure all and sundry that I claim no paternity to this idea . I reiterate what was said initially, i.e I seek no personal gain other than the respect of my integrity of purpose . Nor do I discount that whatever technical contribution others and/or, I , bring to the table are all adequately protected. Is it totally misplaced to think that : unity makes strenght ?

There will be no reason in the continuation of this thread should it evidences a majority of responses that are negative and that the whole idea is not workable.

Thank you and Best Regards,

Labor Omnia Vincit.

NB A Preacher accepts and forgives the sins of his listeners.He also sing hymns . Not being a Preacher I leave them (sinners and listeners ) continue their path to wherever they may wish to go.

Sea-Power.

Before you jump in head over heal into this project do some investigating. I have seen a documentary , various institutions investigating using sea-power to generate electricity. The oldest one, a floating platform or buoy anchored to the ocean floor with a spring, flywheel and a generator in between---need too many to make one mega watt and make one MW unit is not practical.

Tides are investigated in France , from high to low 18m. Various systems have been tried , don't know if any was successful. This system is limited to certain places in the ocean.

A pump system would be the most practical approach.Incoming and outgoing waves would activate levers connected to a pump-valve system, drive a turbine and generator. This problem might be easy to solve but corrosion???

Here is my input fore whatever it's worth---2 cents??

"...and make one MW unit is not practical."

I disagree! All technologies take time to develop - and there are more ways than one to harness the power of the sea.

Dear Sir,

For your information some of my ancestors come from Glasgow. I have worked in Motherwell for a time and have thoroughly (externally) studied the research which was done on wave energy capture at Edinbourh University.(Later followed up commercially by : the Nordic Company : Kvarner ). Of course things have vastly changed because the above was now almost 40 years ago.( By way of preamble to my present intentions it may be of interest to you and , perhaps, others).

In many ways it does illustrate that there remains a lot to do: if , in fourty years there has been no significant break- through wherein whatever that is new which has been found has, by the very nature of its : simplicity, ease of maintenance, investment parameters, adaptation to the environment etc. become adopted universally. This should in no way diminish or denigrate the vast amount that has been done. Yet one is hard put to find the " one -design -fits-all " prime mover. Does it or can it ever exist ?

It is in that sense that I have decided to check and see if by collecting passionate ( but technically well equipped ) people something may or could materialize ??

Best Regards,

Labor Omnia Vincit.

First if playing open cards, than Identify yourself.

"Guests" make bad impression here,

Wangito.

WARNING!!!

1. This post stinks! THE POSTER WOULD NOT IDENTIFY HIM/HERSELF.
2. IS ASKING FOR YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS,AND LATER ON MORE PERSONAL INFO TO PREPARE THE CONTRACT ETC.
3. IS NOT WILLING TO POST HIS. E-MAIL OR OTHER REVEILING INRMATION.
4. GO-AHEAD AND GIVE HIM YOUR IDEAS FOR FREE. HE WILL KNOW WHICH ONE TO EXPLOIT. AND THERE'S GOT TO BE AT LEAST ONE OR TWO VIABLE ONES!
5. IT LOOKS TO ME AS A SIMPLE SCAM, ALTHOUGH SOMEWHAT MORE SUPHISTICATED THAN THE USUAL "WE WANT TO DEPOSIT 15 MILLION DOLLARS IN YOUR ACCOUNT", "CONGRATS, YOU WON THE LOTTERY", OR "WE WILL ENLARGE YOUR PENIS BY MIN OF 10" WITHIN A WEEK", DEALS. AND IT LOOKS TO ME AS IF SOME OF US ARE GOING TO GET HURT. SO WATCH YOUR STEP.
6. HAVE A GOOD VIRUS PROTECTION INSTALLED.

I strongly suggest that until we can rest assure that this is NOT a scam, that CR4 administrators will prevent "Guest" from posting any more notes.

"Labor Omnia Vincit"...."Work conquers": MEANING: I will conquer with your work.

Wangito.

Dear Sir,

Because of the number of other e-mails received ( and significantly more elevating ones I may state) it would appear that I have avoided answering yours. This is a totally incorrect conclusion. However you are absolutely free to state whatever you wish .

One thing I would like you to ask yourself is : Whether or NOT you judge others by your own standards ? Whatever these may be.

I am hoping that these threads which I have followed for some months continue to harbour technical persons of integrity so that I may have the opportunity of contributing my own.

Labor Omnia Vincit.

NB FYI The Members that have manifested their genuine interest have been kept fully informed of my identity and intent. NO technical knowledge will EVER be asked until the structure of an Association has been finalised and approved by these eventual Members who are selected.

I have observed Wangito for sufficient time to have complete confidence in him.

I thought I had convinced you to post under a name other than "Guest". Since I see I was mistaken, I lean towards Wangito's concerns, and most likely will delete this thread from my observations.

Dick

Dear Sir,

Do not forget that I am a relatively new comer to the threads. As a result I have had reservations . Obviously with your experience, this , may allow you to act differently.It could well be that you are right and that I am wrong. At this stage I have stated (and in fact immediately and directly corresponded with those who have contacted me either : directly or, through the CR4 messaging system. This only of late, I have discovered its services simply through contributors using same to contact me !)*****

It is obvious that you know the contributor you refer to. At this stage I do not. Be that as it may , and before ascribing ill intentions or motives to others , particularly those I do not know, personally, I endeavour to first satisfy myself. More so prior to encouraging others to follow my untested and/ or hasty conclusions.Be they right or wrong.

Possibly you may , in time , understand my own diffidence at exhibiting my name . Particularly IF you realise that the person concerned ( and who, you appear to vouch for ) publicly exhibits a propensity to : condemn before verifying.( So far they number :2) This, may I add, is for all intents and purposes done in : anonymity.

Labor Omnia Vincit.

NB ***** The date and time of new-found CR4 messaging system, and message. can if you wish be communicated to support this statement.

I don't know him from a hole in the wall.

We're actually trying to help, posting a guest creates a negative impression, for you to overcome!

no worries I'll still follow along to see if anything comes of the discussion.

Wantingo makes some good points

The technical info is the least of our concerns [or we wouldn't post].

It's about security & the appearence of impropriety.

If you look at Guest reply #46.... "I do agree with you that pockets have to be not only big but more importantly : deep."

Let's see, how can I get engineers to do my work and also pay for it... hmmm.

Your right wangito , this guy is entertaining himself , good cause are always open and free flowing , you don`t have to hide and expect support and labour and "funds" to impliment something good for mankind and environment , this guy will not ask for any ideas initially , but will make of just like any other cyber scams you posted , may be his name implise some warnings , i have never heard any name like that , i stayed with this thread for curiosity and notifications but this guy is answering same every time , s/he supposed watched CR4 from days ago and claims to be new one, i am moving out and don`t want to waste time opening and reading s.. comments ,CR4 ..... watch out

I just completed and submitted a proposal to a group of investors to do exactly what you are proposing here. There is no need for inventions- the marketplace is full of them. The proposal I submitted included a dual system to harness tidal flow during rise and fall, and a reservoir that would provide power during slack tides. Some of the ideas I proposed were based on a study of a French system that has been operating for a number of years. Two problems with the project- it will cost in the neighborhood of $10-12 M, and maintenance costs are significant because of the environment. The system would be designed to replace diesel-powered thermal electric units currently being used, which in this case are the only viable alternative. I suspect "Guest" has not done his homework...

Dear Sir,

Thank you for the statement you have made. You are accurate in saying that the world is full of inventions and I throroughly agree with you. What is the core issue is how many are : workable , inexpensive and reliable.? And perhaps more importantly these days : will pass muster with the environmental issues ?

It used to be that a Megawatt of coal fired power was worth 1.2 to 1.5 Millions US per MW . Assuming that with the dollar fluctuations , this has changed to : 1.75 to 2 Million : How much was yours ? What was its power rating ? Was your power output constant or tidal affected .i.e. intermittent

Because each ocean-generation type , has a different mechanical system differing maintenance costs it is not easy to evaluate any financial model ( or compare on an apples to apples basis ) proposed renewable energy to fossil fuelled plants. Very often and sadly the greater cost in energy systems will be set aside less on the basis of efficiency but rather on investment scope and immediacy.

Thank you,

Labor Omnia Vincit

Well your 1st step would be to register!

2nd would be defining your objective, lg. & or sm.

You mention the need for non disclousures, which leads me to believe you think there is money to be made, if helping humanity is your goal, the project should be open source.

You should do some research & find out which organization(s) are doing similar projects, you may be able to join an existing effort.

I feel silly

I left the daily digest open since last night [ as a tab ]

So today I'm looking @ some of the threads & discover this one, I was suprised to to find very little commentary & posted.

I was quite suprised after receiving a notifacation & seeing every 1 of my points had been very well covered.

ya learn something everyday.

Please see post #27

http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/135979/Re-sea-powered-energy-production

I do have a couple different proposals that need funding and validation. I'm an inventor (5 patents) but not an engineer. Guess that weeds me out?

Dear Sir,

IF your ideas are protected then by all means make us a proposal. If they are not please do not discuss until we ( do not forget the : we , is still being digested ) have settled many issues.

Innovative people are welcome .Always . Whether Engineers or not . Particularly if they question things and past methods , so make your call,

Best Regards,

Labor Omnia Vincit

A more subtle issue is WHERE such might be protected. Filing foreign patents can swallow even deep pockets. Even large companies like GE rarely does it. I know a few people who have "licensed" their invention in a foreign country only to find out there is nothing legally binding to it without filing in each country individually.

Dear Sir,

May I suggest that it is very difficult to obtain perfect protection. I do agree with you that pockets have to be not only big but more importantly : deep.

So what do we do ? Do we sit and wait ? At the end of the day ( and I sincerely hope that I am right ) by having a properly and tightly welded Group we may potentially achieve a satisfactory outcome. I am like you with my own thoughts on various developments.

Best Regards,

Labot Omnia Vincit.

Have a good design

A close relationship w/the community where you are going to build

Support from strategic partners

Instead of spending $'s trying to protect you're IP[intellectual property], allocate the time & resources to speed implementation.

Speed & service will succeed!

Dear Sir,

When it comes to ocean engineering and in particular in the areas I have in mind you need very nimble individuals not all of them muscle( or brain) bound either (CE or ME ). If I look at some of the Institutes or Grouping that are on the foreshores of Oceans be they : US , UK, and even Australia they become static once they are ensconsed in their: International respectability. It is a common trait.

It was with this in mind that I started thinking that by having a smaller Group the latter's vitality would be more easily maintained and therefore its creativity would advance for the good of the participants. Is this a pipe dream ?

Labor Omnia Vincit

NB I do have access to very good Institutes , and : "possibly" backers when the ideas are advanced sufficiently. The old story : the egg or the chicken !

I am a mechanical engineer and very much interested in your proposal. How do I get into your team?

Dear Sir,

Please be aware that if you will inform us of your e-mail contact I will immediately respond to you as earlier informed.Tks.Best Regards,

Labor Omnia Vincit.

My E-mail address is kwarrier@cdactvm.in

There is a Society of Nava Architects and Marine Engineers technical panel on ocean renwable energy. Go to www.sname.org.

With large numbers of e-mail I may have missed acknowledgeing yours. Thank you for the advices.

Labor Omnia Vincit.

Dear Guest,

At least one member of this forum has expressed some concern that your thread is a "cyber scam". You'd do well to help your cause by registering with CR4 and identifying yourself. Choose this link to learn how.

Moose

Dear Sir,

Thank you for such advice. I have endeavoured to find the registration directly without success thus far. I will try another way as it could well be that the server I use is not adequate. Once I have succeeded I will post same to you and others.

It is of interest to all participants ( who have come back in a positive manner ) to know that I have had discussions, this morning ,on matters relating to my own IP protection . These my Patent Attorney has had in hand certain of which are to be for International patent application.

After informing him of my initiative on this thread, he has today very strongly advised me not to proceed ( or be involved with any technical matters or persons ) as per my initial suggestion .

He states that:

1) even on the basis of not- for- profit general interest , there could always be the risk of disgruntled participants creating endless litigations later on

2)His opinion is that :a legal framework first is absolutely essential

3) Secondly there should be individual agreements for each and every one to first study and then if satisfied sign and committ themselves to the rules contained in the Association Memorandum.

Originally and without consulting him , I had sought to stay away from legal opinions . I regret to inform all that he now has thoroughly convinced me otherwise.

In conclusion and given the spontaneous support that I have received from many , I will now propose to proceed as follows :

A.Obtain a Member status. This, in deference to those who have been kind enough to advise me to do so.( In all sincerity I have incorrectly thought that I was one . Apparently even with fulfilling the earlier procedure of having an avatar with my name, this now seems to not to have been the case)

B. Individually re-contact directly those Members who have been positive about the concept of team work and subject to their later written agreement to a draft Association proposal, get the ball rolling .

Whilst this may take some time it will get to be done. Thank you all.

Best Regards,

Labor Omnia Vincit

I thought that was you!

Here's a link to a patent discussion.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/9320/Intellectual-Property

use the search function & you can find more [on nearly any subject]

The lawyer may be persueing his own agenda, everyone needs to get paid!

proceed how you see fit.

Patent Attorney !!

Arrrgggghhhh NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO .

Those two words immediately put me right out!

Oh for heady days when someone would actually DO something..the world has become a talking shop plauged with consultants, targets, meetings...

What a crock of sh*te.

Del

Note to self . Must dissmantle Chinese Repeating Crossbow... patent any new developments and do a safety audit

Del, I was just about to ask you why you think that getting the paperwork sorted before 'saving mankind' was more important when your next post came in! Now I'm confused as to which side of the fence 'the cat' is on.

I remember the heady days of nuclear power arriving in the UK when the government of the day said 'electricity will be so cheap that it will not be worth billing customers for it'! Ok, well that went wrong somewhere but, wouldn't it be nice to help provide endless and cheap power to the world with no environmental issues attached.

As I said at post 7, I am more interested in the end result rather than who profits from the design (as if it work's we all profit). The generation of the power is only the first step. It's the same problem as food. Theres plenty of renewable food supplies around the world but its too expensive to get it to the starving!

If we wait for the parasites of paperwork to get their acts together, we will either be dead or the light bulb/globe will long since have gone out. This will leave us with CATS EYES only!

If paperwork and lawyers are in, I'm out. I'll be dead before I can unzip the lip!

Incidentally, I used to go swimming at the pool in Harlow, strange place with carpet on the ceiling and tiles on the floor!

Regards

Del- its NATO. No action talk only

Nice...not heard that one before I shall store it in my sarcasm file (pretty big file, that one )

2)His opinion is that a legal framework first is absolutely essential!!!!

Originally and without consulting him, I had sought to stay away from legal opinions . I regret to inform all that he now has thoroughly convinced me otherwise.

To Quote Mandy Rice Davies 'He would say that wouldn't he?'

You can't fool me guest, I'll Tell you a story...

There was a stray dog who wanted to become a wolf. So he knows an old wolf and asks him for advise.

"I want to be like you noble and proud. How do I, the stray dog can do this?" "Well," says the wolf, "You dogs when you meet, you smell each other at the butt, that's low class, and the smell of sh♣t ...Oooch, When we wolf meet, we smell each other at the nose. That's nobility. You first need to learn to do that!" "Thank you, thank you so much" said the stray dog "I'll remember that!" And so the stray dog joins a pack of wolf and start running with them. and as soon as he sees a new wolf in the pack, he approaches and proudly smells his nose. So few days passed and a new wolf appears, the stray dog, as usual approaches him and starts smelling him at the nose as he should. "Hold it hold it," says the new wolf. "I know who you are, you can't fool me, so feel free to act like who you are and smell my butt.

"Dear Sir" Guest, You sound intelligent enough to get the massage. [although not intelligent enough, (quoting you,) to find out how to register.]

Wangito.

You can't fool me guest,

d.j sasson-gubbay & Guest = same Guy.

Am aware of that. he/both can't fool me.

Wangito.

So if Guest is already registered as AKA ***, why is he having problems registering especially as he blew his anonimity many posts ago?

Does this prove him a lier?

Dear Sir,

In retrospect wrongly , I have simply preferred to commence this thread as a guest. At no time have I willfully tried to conceal my identity to any one who was :

- genuinely interested,or motivated,

-intelligent ,highly experienced, or simply keen to participate

and may I add :

Civil.

Sadly and " a outrance " the quality and odour of some of the quotes , I must sincerely deplore , go directly to , and indeed amply justify, what is ( most regrettably : belated ) legal advice received.

NB There has never been intention to deny who I am , or " blow " my anonymity. Any one who has bothered to contact me is aware of that.

Labor Omnia Vincit.

Guest

In retrospect wrongly , I have simply preferred to commence this thread as a guest. At no time have I willfully tried to conceal my identity to any one who was :

Guest & d.j sasson gubbay. Please solve the riddle:

You came as a Guest # 1 thru # 26

Registered as Member d.j sasson gubbay #27

Replied as Guest #38

Again as Member #40

Then as Guest # 46,48,51,53,55, 61

Then Member #62

Again Guest #76

All entries as Guest after #27 your saying " At no time have I willfully tried to conceal my identity" does not go along well.

ET TU BRUTUS !

Many thanks for your cricket score like audit.

Somehow you have omitted the "no-balls" and the malodorous annal recoginition experts who have "blown through" !

At the end of the day if nothing else is achieved , there could emerge a conclusion among all of the sound thinkers that : yes , together we can contribute and perhaps achieve credible results. When these " enlightened few" start asking questions on how to go about it your audit capabilities will be highly recommended.

I for one have been vaccinated by the experience .Certainly now and in future I will be most concerned at my earlier incognizance. Mea Culpa.

Labor Omnia Vincit.

I have submitted concepts to the following bodies:

CEGT, Central Energy of Greenhouse Technologies, Australian,Vic, funded body, and,

EPRI, Electric Power Research Institute, US funded body.

Response from these bodies , silence.

These are government funded bodies, possible careerer structured, what is different about what you propose?

Regards JD.

Somehow , the first flicker of light emerges.

In reality what you say is absolutely exact. The level of urgency is still not recognised. It is talked and written about. Yet , the independent thinkers do not have many places to go to. It is abundantly clear that innovative thought and or designs are not catered for . Particularly in most if not all of these heavily administered and controlled institutions.

The objective that I had is to create independent small pools of talent that would not be lumbered by bureaucratic impotence. Thanks for the comment, will come back to you in the near future.

Labor Omnia Vincit

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your very concerned, thoughtfull and encouraging comment.

After receiving legal "red-lights" on the original concept, I am now wondering IF to have a neutral Partner could overcome some or most difficulties. This could be , for instance , the CR4 Board of Administrators . They, I would asssume , are probably the best placed organisers and more importantly the ideal: controllers , moderators ,of such scheme(s).

In such context all forms of renewable energies could each then have a distinct , continuing thread and, very importantly : an international forum .This would be specific to each energy : i.e. wavepower,ocean power, solar power,methane, wind , air ,or electric car . et al. The individual contributors would be bound by a code of ethics that would need be advertised and to which each new: member, guest or simple one-off contributor would agree to as is presently done for multiple on-line services. This new code of ethics would incorporate distinct confidentiality clauses, as well as, no- residual interest in whatever commercial gain or outcome which might or could arise from individual members contributions to CR4 ( and or others ) which may be nominated . CR4 (and or others) could volunteer some portion (or all benefits ) that might ensue to charitable causes and retain such percentage as might be considered adequate to meet the foreseeable operating costs.

Is it possible that we should invite all to see if we can reach consensus on above suggestions .? Is this utopian ? This incidentally could include the recent proponents of : N.A.T.O, & other nay-sayers to: come forward . As well , make constructive comments (and as they say in Australia ) put- up or shut- up.

Best Regards.

Labor Omnia Vincit

follow this link to a bunch of threads about future energy.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/902/Possible-Technologies-for-Future-Energy-and-Power-Production

You misunderstand CR4 this is just a off shoot of Global Spec industrial search engine [ see upper right corner of this page ]

I would suggest you contact Chris Leonard http://cr4.globalspec.com/member?u=2 I'm not sure they would be ready to much more than host a blog, assuming someone wants to moderate.

Dear Sir,

Many thanks for your guidance. It is much welcome and appreciated.

The webb site you have indicated, I have visited and I am impressed by the technical level of the contributors . Through your initiative I hope to engage in discussions later on .

As soon as I have some time I will contact the gentleman you have suggested .Again my sincere appreciation for a positive "leg-up".

Best Regards,

Labor Omnia Vincit

I have read your post and Garthh answer, I am not inspired by your wording, though I except we don't always express ourself as we would wish, this is more than just an engineering problem, it is a social and economical one also, one cant just come up with an idea that would result in the closure of say America's power stations, it has to be a win, win situation. And an economical solution for the rest of the world, we have a trading infrastructure with other countries, this has to be catered for, any answer has to be across the board, and sustainable. It cant be a narrow self interested exercise, we need a political as well as an engineering solution.

Regards JD.

Don't be discouraged, keep trying its still a noble thing to try and achieve.

Regards JD.

I admire the noble idea to do it "to save the world..... for King and Country... rubarb..rubarb" but, come on guys - get real for a moment. Be aware that there are most probably a few "lurkers" following this thread very closely. When a great idea comes up, they are going to grab it, run with it and make begabucks out of it.

On the other hand, one could regard this forum as "open source" or public domain so they would have great difficulty in patenting anything

Brgds, Maurice

Noble is a bit flowery and over the top? But I, as an individual, am quite prepared to put my concepts out there and let anyone that has the resources and drive to run with it, and are welcome to any rewards, I have not put my concept into the public domain as this may disadvantage anyone that chose to use it. There is some further bugs I have to iron out and I will then submit it to a web site that looks at unsolicited ideas. I'm not looking for funding, just to put the concept on the table.

I have done my home work and don't see any thing of a simular nature on the internet, and it meets the following criteria; Ease of maintenance (accessible), load available on demand (does not need high tide variation), fits into the power grid system particularly the concept of base loading of atomic power station to increase efficiency. Big ideas? Yes, and I'm still thinking it over, and posting it I'm not sure is a wise thing to do?

Regards JD.

I will then submit it to a web site that looks at unsolicited ideas.

JD where would that be?

I'm full of it [ideas] & don't mind giving them away, sounds like a fun place!

John N. Augustine
DOE Unsolicited Proposal Manager
john.augustine@netl.doe.gov

Regards JD.

Thanks

I've been meaning to spend some time on the DOE site

In case I have not directly, answered you , kindly note that I am moving forward . with help and encouragement from yourself and others (including Garthh) we may ultimately get somewhere.

I notice you are in Australia.In the event you would want to communicate I will be delighted to talk with you.

Best Regards,

Labor Omnia Vincit.

I'll sum up

the good ol' boys gotta get paid!

It sums up my frustrations, above was not meant to be critical, after all I think Microsoft started in a back shed? Just that I feel it needs direction and leadership, there are a lot of other people out there working on this, I think there is always the need for innovative ideas, and an avenue available for people to express them, I don't know what the answer is, so perhaps other might kick this along, and suggest some constructive ways of getting it up and running. I think that guest is trying his hardest, and I wouldn't like to see it fall by the wayside now? It is an important issue.

Regards JD.

JD

I agree w/your sentiment(s)

I just know that you have to somehow provide profit for the powers that be. that profit can take many forms only some of them strictly monetary, public relations can be quite valuable, there are political capitol gains if you have the right friends.

slimy stuff but it's the way things work

F'Chr**t sakes!

This is 'too important' an issue (engineeringly speaking) to let (what was it) annal recognition experts slow down the process.

Why doesn't 'guest' look after the paper pushers and all the rest of us get on with the fun stuff?

Perhaps some of the annal experts could form a steering committee and keep us all honest!

But we must all agree that the clock is ticking!

ET TU BRUTUS ! Who me or You? coming in together as Guest & Member.

Being a member I find it justified to give statics for all us members. You've yet to comment on your dual personality which is awaited. Please do answers all your no-balls.

Click here to learn how to register with CR4, Guest. It's really not that hard. And it may be the only thing that prevents an end to this thread.

Diving near a channel on a barrier reef one day I had the experience of feeling the power of tidal flow. Now imagine a water sock, suspended below the surface and in the center of that channel and capable of rotating to catch the inflow and outflow through that natural channel. Our water sock has a small turbine mounted at the outlet of the water sock.

OR

A wave has a height of .5 meters and is moving at 2 meters per second. Two walls are used to focus the waves onto a hydraulic ram(s) that pump pressurize an accumulator. The pressurized accumulator is used to drive a small turbine.

Or

A buoy is suspended just at the surface of the water. This buoy has a compressible bladder. As a wave passes the buoy, it applies a force on the compressible bladder forcing a working medium to pressurize an accumulator. The accumulator powers a small turbine.

So how do we calculate the "work" that can be done?

Gavilan

WRT to your disaster, I attended a lecture the other evening given by Lester Lave, economics professor at CMU in Pittsburgh and a long-time energy specialist. He predicts $6 per gallon for gasoline by 2010 (currently about $3), and equivalent raises for natural gas. Yeah, maybe we should do something. There was a neat program on PBS the other day regarding buoy generators and tidal current turbines. Probably never produce more than 10% of our needs, but that could make a huge difference (economists have some term that I can't remember for items where you must have them and price is overly sensitive to demand).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

Something needs to be done, but will we do it when we can afford it, or will we do it when we have too? alternative energy is not cheap, but do we have a choice?

Regards JD.

Many thanks for a constructive comment and a very usefull search area.

Labor Omnia Vincit