Previous in Forum: Thin, Low-Thermal-Mass, Foil-type Heater   Next in Forum: U.S. gasoline pricing standards
Close
Close
Close
12 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 86

Solid Liquids

11/20/2007 12:17 PM

If a steel pipe 6" OD x 1/8" ID at 20 ft long were suitably capped.

Before sealing the pipe with the caps, the 1/8" bore were filled with half water and half mercury with the exclusion of all air.

The pipe was then refrigerated to insure the contained water was below 32 deg F.

My question is: what would the internal pressure be and would the mercury also become solid?

__________________
THE PROOF OF THE PUDDING, IS IN THE EATING.
Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: solidifying liquids
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Anonymous Poster
#1

Re: Solid Liquids

11/21/2007 1:45 AM

Sounds like a homework problem to me.

Most eng problems involve making sensible assumptions, like the pipe volume is constant (over the pressures involved), the water doesn't react with mercury etc.

Then, you've got a constant volume (of Hg & water), at a known pressure.

You freeze the water (assume it all turns to ice), it expands increasing the pressure(assume that Hg isn't compressible)

You look up the freezing point for Hg at that pressure, and see if it's lower than 0C.

The difficult part will be finding the appropriate curves for freezing point at different pressures. ffeJ

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member United Kingdom - Big Ben - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Altair 8800 - New Member Canada - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3968
Good Answers: 120
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Solid Liquids

11/21/2007 7:06 AM

phase diagram for water helps, but you need to know how much things expand under pressure temperature to select your point on the diagram.

http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html

__________________
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: KnoxTN
Posts: 1485
Good Answers: 6
#3

Re: Solid Liquids

11/21/2007 10:35 AM

"If a steel pipe 6" OD x 1/8" ID at 20 ft long were suitably capped."

A very unusual capillary. Where did you get this 'pipe'?

"The pipe was then refrigerated to insure the contained water was below 32 deg F.
My question is: what would the internal pressure be and would the mercury also become solid?"

Internal pressure best determined experimentally. Difficult to calculate.

Physical Properties [table] of Mercury

__________________
Do Nothing Simply When a Way Can be Found to Make it Complex and Wonderful
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#10
In reply to #3

Re: Solid Liquids

11/26/2007 6:31 AM

<A very unusual capillary. Where did you get this 'pipe'?>

Well spotted!

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 36
#4

Re: Solid Liquids

11/21/2007 12:41 PM

Just guessing: Yes the Hg would remain a solid. The water would freeze at the tripple point and the pressure in the pipe would drop, much like a warm bottle of soda pop if placed in a refrigerator. Or fall like the height of mercury in a glass thermometer when cooled.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Solid Liquids

11/21/2007 2:53 PM

semi-retired designer

"Yes the Hg would remain a solid. The water would freeze at the tripple point and the pressure in the pipe would drop, much like a warm bottle of soda pop if placed in a refrigerator. Or fall like the height of mercury in a glass thermometer when cooled."

A real WAG if ever there was one !

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1817
Good Answers: 7
#6
In reply to #4

Re: Solid Liquids

11/21/2007 3:07 PM

Isn't mercury a liquid?

If so, why would it "remain a solid"????

Please explain yourself as this sounds realy odd to me.

Also, why would the pressure drop "much like a warm bottle of soda"?

As far as I am concerned the only thing that shrinks in that bottle is the gas above the liquid soda. The liquid will first shrink a little and then expand as it turns to ice, just like the water in the pipe. Also the post stated that there would be NO AIR above the contents after capping, so this part of your answer has to be disgarded.

Again I would invite you to elaborate as something does not sound right.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#7
In reply to #6

Re: Solid Liquids

11/21/2007 3:41 PM

case491:

It's just a WAG by a non-engineer

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - Cardio-7

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 621
Good Answers: 10
#11
In reply to #6

Re: Solid Liquids

12/04/2007 12:53 PM

Good point! Mercury, at 760 mm ambient pressure, melts at ~ minus 38.8 C. Also, I didn't see any mention of the air entrained in the liquid water, probably in the mercury also. What are the different crystalline forms of water, and associated density, as the temperature decreases with increasing pressure? If the mercury is actually incompressible, at what point would the "pipe" rupture due to the volume expansion of ice? Pipe composition, wall thickness? Thread size etc of the caps. A lot of unknowns. Do I remember correctly that water is one of a very few compounds or elements that expand when frozen? Send this one back to engineering to be further detailed.

Register to Reply
Power-User
Safety - Hazmat - Environmental, Safety & Health Manager Hobbies - Musician - Theremin (That about says it all...)

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 289
Good Answers: 19
#8

Re: Solid Liquids

11/21/2007 4:43 PM

"The pipe was then refrigerated to insure the contained water was below 32 deg F."

Doesn't the below 32 deg F part suggest that this is "freezing" as opposed to refrigerating?

The melting point for mercury is -37.89 °F (or 234.32 °K)

That's some refrigerator...

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sour Lake, TX 30°08'59.68"N 94°19'42.81"W
Posts: 675
Good Answers: 13
#9

Re: Solid Liquids

11/21/2007 5:50 PM

I have found the volumetric expansion coefficients for water, Hg and ice, respectively. Assuming that filing the pipe with water and mercury has been done at 20 C, as we lower the temperature (everything is sealed OK), down to 0 C everything "shrinks". At zero water becomes ice and, for a small negative gradient of temperature, the block of ice starts to expand with a volumetric coefficient of 153. Hg continues to shrink with the coefficient of 180. I don't know how the pipe reacts to the lower temperature but its volumetric coefficient is 36. So, in order to burst the pipe, it must be a concentration water/Hg larger than 50/50 (probably close to 180/153).

__________________
Bridge rule #1: Nobody is as good as he thinks about himself nor as dumb, as his partner thinks...
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 86
#12
In reply to #9

Re: Solid Liquids

12/04/2007 4:19 PM

I am wondering if the conductivity of the mercury would change under extreme pressure in a simmilar way that it does under cryogenic conditions. compressing a liquid electrical conductor might turn it into a superconductor under a high enough pressure?

GF

__________________
THE PROOF OF THE PUDDING, IS IN THE EATING.
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 12 comments
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (3); aurizon (1); Cardio07 (1); case491 (1); gfwhell (1); indel (1); PWSlack (1); semi-retired designer (1); Stirling Stan (1); The JMAN (1)

Previous in Forum: Thin, Low-Thermal-Mass, Foil-type Heater   Next in Forum: U.S. gasoline pricing standards

Advertisement