More About Patents....

CR3,

I agree with you on every point,

Your statement;

"but am stymied as to how to go about it. I have 30+ plans for rather simple low cost products, a few of which are definitely of good potential, and no way to insure, protect, produce or develop."

I would like to add something to this, The misconception that one should hold a patent. Having been down this road, I have found that contracting to create the artwork for other people to patent their ideas as well as doing the write up to encompass it prior to them taking it to a patent attorney to finish it. This has save my clients a substantial amount of money.

And your comment;

"So for example lets say that I have a noteworthy modification to an existing product such as a paper-clip or a magic marker or something simple like this. What the heck do I do with it?"

As my understanding, there is nothing wrong with that as long as you reference it in your patent. It would be litigated later if profits are found.

As you stated, it is disheartening as well as discouraging to inventors. Unfortunately, this was the only way, I see how to make a profit by a patent. i.e. doing the work for other people's aspirations.

I wish there would be an overhaul to the patent process to favor and protect the inventor rather than have the middleman profit from it.

phoenix911

Tricky one.

Maybe get a company to manufacture 'it' for you... having signed a confidentiality agreement first.

If it has several parts, get them made by two different companies and assemble them yourself.

If you are worried about competition from Far East/India get it made out there in the first place. (I know tooling is v expensive)

Maybe sell it to a company who is already in that particular market on a royalty basis... maybe a confidentiality agreement is cheaper and and as good/bad as a patent. If you don't price yourself out of the market you are less likely to get ripped off, and a small royalty is an ongoing revenue stream ( whoops marketing double speak).

Maybe put key aspects into the public domain to stop others patenting it.

Make prototypes (rapid or the old fashioned way) and copyright 'em? Keep a record of all your stuff.

Maybe find a company which has the facilities to make your product but is working in a completely different field... work with them as an off shoot or a diversification of their core business.

If it's a small cottage industry type thing, maybe aproach local groups about production?

Hmmm I think I'm rambling now, it's tricky when I don't know the product.

It's that break point between, cottage industry/hobby/fun and serious enterprize which is difficult...

My crossbow factory just never took off... a few hundred years too late...and my kevlar armour isn't too popular.

You need a real life KrisDel products...unfortunately we specialise in 'virtual' products.

Best of luck, I hope at least 0.5% of this has been helpful!

Del

PS If you just want the kudos.. publish on CR4 and everywhre else you can find and hope maybe an angel will pick it up.

PS If you just want the kudos.. publish on CR4 and everywhre else you can find and hope maybe an angel will pick it up.

Kudos from this bunch? Next I should trade it for bananas?

Very good point of debate. No easy answers.

I have been on the brink of contacting patent lawyers but gave up as the formal and legal lingo is enough to make me opt for voluntary frontal lobotomy or at least a long lasting coma.

It seems that when you have a good idea you also need to have the stamina to fight for it through the established ways of industrial patents and legislation. What if you can't or won't do this? You are seriously stuck then.

I think your best bet is to contact some organisation that promotes new inventors and helps them along in the way of pairing them up with potential manufacturers and financiers. As long as they are assisting you all the way you should find it fruitful in the end.

Remains tricky and daunting nonetheless. I can remember a guy called Trevor Bayliss or something. He did just that after he made his mark with the wind up radio. Look for those elsewhere to get your foot in the door.

All the best with whatever you are thinking of, I hope it does not keep you awake at night as it did me

I think your best bet is to contact some organisation that promotes new inventors and helps them along in the way of pairing them up with potential manufacturers and financiers.

There is a group called SCORE with which one can get some help but aside from them I know of no-one.

I think your best bet is to contact some organisation that promotes new inventors and helps them along in the way of pairing them up with potential manufacturers and financiers.

This is well-intentioned advice, but in practice, at least in the US, it's dangerous. In the US the vast majority of invention marketing and promotion firms are frauds, pure and simple (but very difficult to prosecute). Almost all make their money by charging the inventor fees, and most do a worse job of getting your product on the market than you could do yourself. Once you've paid your fees, there is no need for them to promote your idea -- they've already made their money and move on to the next mark.

I don't offer this as a criticism of what you said, just as a caution: there are a few legitimate, free inventors' organisations, and many fraudulent invention marketing companies. Here's a thread on such companies.

I'd suggest buying the book "Patent it Yourself." I think filing provisional applications yourself can only help your situation. You have to very careful when doing so that your invention is fully and accurately disclosed, but the provisional application is only $105 to file, and allows you to say "patent pending" and allows you to discuss your idea with potential funders with , at least some protection, which is somewhat better than none whatsoever.

The threat of a lawsuit may cause an infringer to back off, or may enable you to negotiate a royalty deal. Obviously, in defending against a large corp which is intending to steal your idea, you'll lose, but at least a patent gives you some protection against smaller companies.

So, definitely file a provisional, after reading how to do it without weakening your subsequent final application. Although you can (and many have) write the full application yourself, I'd suggest a patent attorney at that point. In the year's time a provisional provides, you can get the funding together, and the funders will he happy to pay for the application costs to protect their investment.

Each of your products will require a business plan (unless you can lump several together into a single business). Ideally, you'll want to find an angel investor, but don't shy away from VC types, if you have a great idea -- they want a lot of your company, and may want to put in their own management, but often their management can be a huge help, not a hinderance. These days, you should be able to present your biz in one page well enough to make someone, subsequently read a three page summary, and finally a full plan (which may be 60 pages).

I'd recommend the Fast Trac (Kauffman) program for developing a business. It's offered at many unieversities, entrepreneurial development centers, etc. Extremely helpful.

I'd suggest buying the book "Patent it Yourself."

That is a very good book,

After reading some of the posts, some that responded to this post seemed to be intimidated with the process of patenting, and they should not be. Allot of the processes can be done on your own, prior to bringing a patent attorney on to review it.

I was talking to an attorney (over cocktails) And he mentioned that allot of the procedures that a attorney goes through is quiet repetitive and can be rather boring.

It's knowing the procedures thats important, (as well as the interpretation of the law) But when one does it once, one can pick up on it to be able to carry it through on your own.

As far as the organizations doing the work for you, I also agree that is not recommended.

They are the only ones other than attorney's that usually profit from it.

The suggestion is to purchase that book, it may take some time, but the experience you pick up, is quite valuable.

I agree but some also suggested that it makes no bloody difference if in the end you cannot uphold your rights as you cannot go to court over it. So we asked what is the point if you are a small on your own in your shed inventor?

That is so true, I did some of it to repay a favor for a friend, and asked for nothing, he still paid me.

And other people started calling me to help them. I told them the same thing, but felt bad when you see their dreams get crushed, even when it is a good idea, so I avoid doing it.

"So we asked what is the point if you are a small on your own in your shed inventor?"

as far as that is concerned, I also try to reframe from opinions, because one may be in the right place at the right time with the right people to help, and be able to profit from your idea. But reform is needed.

I just ran your question past our patent attorney and she said "by all means, patent your idea. It matters not if you do it or hire someone to do it for you, the idea is to execute protection as soon as you can".

I also asked her about copyrights and she had this comment "a copyright is primarily for written works and the courts do not have a clear way to enforce other than that via copyright laws". She also added a caveat by saying copyright law was not her specialty, but having been invloved in a law firm which handled copyright litigation, gave her some insight into the process.

Hi taejonwando

Your patent attorney said:

"by all means, patent your idea. It matters not if you do it or hire someone to do it for you, the idea is to execute protection as soon as you can".

This statement irritates me no end. It is highly misleading, deceptive and just not good advice at all. It is a typical statement from some one working for the firm. Advertising for patent attorneys should be out lawed. Patenting some idea, as a single entity, is of enormous financial and other risks. Please tell your patent attorney to get a deal with the big end of town and not feed on the small fry.

As you will have noticed by now I am one of the "burnt ones". One of so many. I would not encourage any one to apply and try to get a patent granted.

I am not even sorry for raining on the parade. Yours truly. Ky.

" I am not even sorry for raining on the parade. Yours truly. Ky."

It's ok Ky.

Raining gives us reason to have umbrellas. Like you said you've been burned and that must have been a bitter experience. However you offer no other way to protect an idea.

I think patents do protect an idea. I have a few (long since expired) however the process was pleasant for the most part and did return enough revenue to buy our first house. I did have some expert help in preparing and processing my patents. At UCLA, I took Dr. Martin Gery's class on Patenting and he was immensly helpful.

He stressed the importance of stating every claim you could possibly imagine including such obscure features as a unique sound (remember, Harley Davidson patented their engine's sound). He said so many people lose control of their patents to clever people who find ways around poorly written claims. He was a tough taskmaster when grading our claims.

I hope you continue to use your creative gifts. I hope you try again to patent one of your creations and as professor Gery would say "build a wall of well written claims around it" to keep out the to keep out the "idea thieves".

Preparing your own patents only costs a few dollars (I think mine cost about $200 or less back in 70's) and takes less time than most people think. The US Patent office has downloadable instructions on preparing a patent. Start with this site; www.uspto/main.gov and get back into the fight. Let's hope this time you'll win and profit from your creativity. While I write this I am certain someone somewhere is profiting from their patented creativity. I hope you are the next to do so.

taejonkwando,

A truly inspirational post, Thank you for those words!

About 5 years ago I got stung to the sum of 6000pounds for a patent! Unfortunately, to renew the patent they were asking for 28,000pounds! Way out of my budget! After that, with the thought of the patents elapsing, my drive failed me, I lost interest after six years of research, 3 fully operational prototypes and a lot of money! That was my first and only patent and it left a bitter taste!

Lately, I've been drawn back to my projectX, and new ideas are starting to form, Thank you for fanning the flames of inspiration. Indeed Thank you all for getting me re-inspired.

Wow... what a great post!

However you offer no other way to protect an idea.

Thank you for the reply taejonkwado.

As a single entity there is no way you can protect a patent through its lifetime. Even if you start earning money from the word go. If you are making $ from the start you are really on to something.Your competitors will know. It takes only one to spoil the pleasure of reaping the rewards. If money can be made from an idea there is more money to be made from the same. If you have the advantage of an existing infra structure, Legal Eagle department etc. it can turn into a merciless sport, were individual aspects of the original inventor become completely irrelevant.

Remember this is only applicable when an invention is or could be making a lot of money. Protecting a new paper clip would be an easy thing to do but it will not reimburse you for the trouble of going through the patent process.

I am working on a process/way to have a product on the market with the help of one of the companies that will take it off me in the near future any way. This will take it's time, possibly longer than it took to invent, proto -type, research, establish a business plan etc.

I will not trust any patent attorney. Never. I will leave that to the party interested in the idea. The cart before the horse. That is the way to protect an idea. The carrot and the stick makes the cart move but have you ever heard ofthe donkey getting the carrot.

I am too busy to hold the carrot, sit on the cart and choose direction while wielding the stick at the same time. The encouragement you have given could make a huge difference so thank you for your well meant advice. I am by no means a bitter person but have woken up to the realities of the shark pond this world has become.

Maybe you will become one of the people to be using my technology in the very near future. I am not sure though if it will have my name on the patent role but that is the least of my problems. I am after financial gain, reimbursement so to have more time for the other ideas that are hiding away and pestering me to let them out.

Say G'day to your patent attorney friend from me. We could meet one day and have good laugh about my recalcitrance. Ky.

taejonkwando: "Start with this site; www.uspto/main.gov and get back into the fight."

To state it more accurately the USPTO hands you off to some other non-gov't. entities.

I was informed that the USPTO and the equivalent European organization are revising the rules as well as the copyright laws. Do you have any comments and/or suggestions in regard to such changes?

It matters not if you do it or hire someone to do...

I think that is pretty generous advice, coming from an attorney. I'm sorry to hear you've been burned, but I think the advice is great advice. It costs next to nothing to at least get a provisional in place, and some protection is better than none, is it not?

If you have a great idea, and it's making a $billion a year in revenue, then defending against infringement becomes much easier. Ask any drug company about the value of patents.

Ask any drug company about the value of patents.

Does Monsanto ring a bell? This company and its cohorts are riding out a legal storm and it looks like they are going to come up with the goodies. To all our detriment. The legal eagles representing them are twisting and turning even the basic gens that nature has provided so that they fit their bank accounts.

I know it cost next to nothing to have a provisional in place but think to the end of 12 months. You are up for much more and still haven't found all necessary parts of the jig saw puzzle let alone put them in place.

and some protection is better than none, is it not?

Ken let me tell you it is clearly not. What is "some protection". If you haven't got all your bases covered you are gone. Your money too. Claims, claims and more claims. Taejowando made this very important point. Some protection means less than nothing. You have to go all the way, and I repeat, as a single entity you have not a chance in Hell.

Because Inventors are prone to illusion and delusion they are easy pray for any one who knows better and withholds the information which could stop the backyard inventor from going all the way.

All this has been discussed before by smarter people than myself and the result is always the same: If you have not got the backing of a large company you will not succeed. Ever. The one man show is dead for good and all the professionals telling you other wise are not interested in your idea but in your money only. Always.

Pro bono patent attorneys? I think that is pretty generous advice. IPMSL. Ky.

I know it cost next to nothing to have a provisional in place but think to the end of 12 months. You are up for much more and still haven't found all necessary parts of the jig saw puzzle let alone put them in place.

I think you should write the claims when you write the provisional, but not submit them. Then you write the specification and drawings to support the claims -- and submit that. If you need to make substantial changes during the year which are not covered by the original spec, then you lose priority for the changes, but you retain it for the original matter. So the provisional costs you next to nothing, and offers some hope of future protection. During the year, you will have rounded up funding, and can have the resources of a multi-million dollar company behind you. At that point, if you are a die hard do-it-yourselfer, then write you own full application, but your time could be better spent by having a pro do it. That seems much better than trying to go it alone and with no protection whatsoever.

I'm not sure I understand what you are offering as an alternative to filing a patent.

Ken let me tell you it is clearly not. What is "some protection".

By "some protection" I meant a successfully prosecuted patent, a provisional being a possible first step. A while ago, I applied for a patent almost a year later than I might have otherwise, not taking the opportunity to do a provisional. Another patent on the same idea was filed only months earlier, and prevented mine from going through. The earlier patent was actually slightly broader than mine, but otherwise identical. Had mine been there first, the tables would have been turned. In my experience, the sooner you file the better, and a provisional is a way to file sooner.

The one man show is dead for good and all the professionals telling you other wise are not interested in your idea but in your money only.

I've never had a professional tell me that a one man show is the way to go. You've got to get millions together to get a product on the market, and that's not something a typical one man show can do.

Thank you ken.

I hope I didn't hurt any feelings here. I could have over reacted with my response. Even after a decade there is still an open wound. It's healing. Never mind the whining and winging, it was rommel CR3 who asked the original question. He is having a great source of information delivered by all of the participants of this discussion, which has given me some insights as well.

Ky: The one man show is dead for good and all the professionals telling you other wise are not interested in your idea but in your money only.

You respond:

I've never had a professional tell me that a one man show is the way to go. You've got to get millions together to get a product on the market, and that's not something a typical one man show can do.

For some reason you seem to think that this is what a "professional" had once told me. I am well aware that it takes more than a good idea to make some return on the invested time and money put towards any project.

If you wanted a smash hit in any kind of genre (including an invention) you would have to first come up with some thing that will attract attention. This will then create money but only if the participants (partners) are honest and have good will.

To stay with the musical example if you wanted a hit to be produced you would need professional musicians to do the deed. You pay them, they deliver. All goes to head office and a CD is made. This all sounds straight forward but is way off line. We are still talking about patent attorneys here.

My complaint is that the next door inventor has to bare (bear) it all because the "professional" is in charge of the process. There is no more honest song writer involved. It's all a big sacrifice for the small time inventor. No one tells the poor bastard he can't play guitar, but they will still produce the CD (Patent).

I remember my first patent in 1974 and the learning process since then. This is not about ME any more, but about Rommel who wanted to be advised about these issues.

They (the executives of a firm) encourage even the most ludicrous idea (case) to be pursued, in most instances knowing that there is no hope in hell. Like in every other area, really.

Rommel will hopefully be reading this but I think he was just after a bit of fishing in the dark. Maybe he is getting more than he has bargained for.

If I would know how to spontaneously mark your reply I would regard it as very satisfactory and helpful. I would give you and all other comments high marks for encouragement and assistance in this matter. All though we still have to hear from Rommel and his decision making process at one stage, or maybe not.

You see that monkey jump?

All the best to the whole lot of you. Ky.

PS. if I would have spoken those greetings out in Australian (northern that is) you would not have known what I am talking about. You would only say it to good friends. I'll be going bush soon, which has a different meaning here too. Completely.

All the best. Ky.

I hope I didn't hurt any feelings here.

Not in the least. Anything but. It only saddens me that you have had these unfortunate experiences. For all of us who invent things, or create songs, or write books, or make paintings, it can be very disheartening to have our work stolen.

I think that in the invention world, things are not at all as clear as they are in the other areas. "Means for"... is such a broad term (which as an inventor, you love to see in your own invention... but hate to see in the inventions of others as you do a search). If you steal a song off the web, it is crystal clear -- the words are there, the tune is there, the timbre of the voice is there. But I think we have all seen inventions where the first claim is so broad that you have to wonder, "How on earth could they possibly have received a patent?"

I remember, many years ago, after having developed interactive videodisc multimedia programming for airline pilot training, using (at first) a Phillips prototype of the very first Laservision videodisc players, McGraw Hill patented "multimedia"... several years later. At the time the whole notion of patenting software was brand new -- and to many people then, (and even now) it still seems fundamentally wrong. Many programming tasks are fundamentally simple -- there is and was nothing earth shaking about controlling a laser disc player with a computer, and the actually code could "skin a cat" in twenty different ways, given 20 different programmers.

Well... I feel a rant coming on.

So, changing gears... The patent system is seriously flawed, I think. But I think that if you have something patentable, you should patent it nevertheless. At least it gives you some leverage to get funding. I am a strong advocate of doing it yourself, to the extent that you can -- otherwise its just too expensive, and you're left with no protection at all. What else do you have? NDAs are utterly and totally useless if there is not symmetry and trust involved -- when there is some trust involved, then they can be useful simply to serve to clarify that you you want things kept confidential, and to remind the parties involved of the information to treat carefully.

There are many successful companies that never get involved in any sort of IP litigation -- they play by the rules, and understand that everyone can benefit by bringing out great new products: the inventor, the manufacturers, the dealers, the customers. The monopoly granted the inventor provides an incentive for invention, and invention serves the common good. Sadly, where this should be most obvious is in the drug business: clearly curing disease is a great thing. But when the prices associated with a monopoly mean that people in dire need cannot afford treatment, then something seems quite wrong.

"Traditional" (Cr4 member) brought up something along these lines: that we need an organization to help inventors get things on the market. A little different tack: Suppose there was a company that received (even a large) percentage of royalties, but which would go to bat for small inventors in just the area of patent infringement. They wouldn't market, or fund, or anything else... they'd just be patent police, (we have police for other crimes but not for patent infringement) and would have the funds (funds enough to strike fear into the hearts of infringers) to prosecute. Who knows? Naive, probably. Suppose they take 50%. That simply means you have to come up with two great ideas instead of one. Seems like a fair trade, to me.

Oooops.

I remember, many years ago, after having developed interactive videodisc multimedia programming for airline pilot training, using (at first) a Phillips prototype of the very first Laservision videodisc players, McGraw Hill patented "multimedia"... several years later.

Should have proofed this. It should start "I remember, many years ago, after I developed interactive videodisc... McGraw Hill basically took the ideas of many practitioners and patented them after they had been used for several years!

The patent system is seriously flawed

That is the reason I refuse to cooperate. In a game of chess you have rules that can't be broken. The better tactician wins. The person who invents the bests moves will win. That is what I am attempting right now. How can I beat a system that has no rules, and if, then can be changed after the event? Playing with the big boys seems the way to go. But who wants to play with investment when it could just be taken for free?

This new (3 years in the making) invention of mine is not going to go out with a splash. I will have to be extra careful and try to find funding in unconventional ways. Leave it with me and I'll keep you up dated. There is a way to solve this dilemma, it just hasn't shown itself to me jet. Come time come solution. No rush. Nobody will come up with something similar, just like that, he said and regreted it soon after.

Just not gonna loose my sense of humor at this stage. Thanks for your input. Ky.

Hi CR3

So for example lets say that I have a noteworthy modification to an existing product such as a paper-clip or a magic marker or something simple like this. What the heck do I do with it?

It is quite simple. If you have an idea and it is as good as you think it is, it will develop it's one being. It's like a pet that grows and needs food and the more it grows the more attention it will require. You want the ideas to bread and make you some money in the end. If the idea dies it is usually triggered by lack of care. If there was lack of care there was no love. Like with the pet. Coming to think of it, this happens in any relationship on what ever level or discipline.

The other day I saw a program about drink spiking. I was astounded about the impacts. It took me a week of thought and experimenting and I came up with a cheap and reliable way to stop or at least make it very difficult to spike a drink. I was so proud of myself. I approached a very large company dealing with alcohol on a world wide scale. This gadget/gimmick could have been used as a promotional tool. Too come to the point; They were not interested they wrote. "They were in the business of selling alcohol and not anti drink spiking gimmicks".

This was a big enough setback and it registered as # 39 in the list of ideas to be tackled one day. I did not want this "pet" and kicked it out straight away. You have to look for the right party to deal with. It is always harder to follow through with this than to come up with an invention.

Any of your ideas could be worth a lot of money. If they don't speak to you don't feed them. If you start feeding them they will grow.....

Sterling Stan had put up a link the other day that was very informative and sobering. It dealt with the uselessness of the patenting process. Sorry I forgot the name but sS should have it under his posts.

Good luck Mate. You will need it. Ky.

My Grandad patented the first pump that could run dry without damage in 1949. He was the head electrician over all of the iron ore mines in Minnesota and surrounding area owned by Inland Steel/Ryerson. They paid for his patents in return for his engineering the huge pumps that lifted several millions of gallons of water, mud, and rock an hour from the mine pits to the other pumps which sent it for miles to the settling ponds.

To us, his design was quite simple in that it used a balanced intake and discharge and rubber wear linings. Being balanced eliminated the need for bearings on the impeller which on the old styles would burn out almost instantly if run dry.

I don't know the horsepower, but in a picture my Grandad looks like an ant in front of three of them. The old timers in Hibbing, MN said the pumps lasted forever.

My Grandad invented many things but the most important thing he was...was a wonderful Grandad. No kid could have had a better grandad than mine. he gave me my first tool box full of electrcal tools when I was two. And as I grew up and would visit, he would always teach me something about electricity or his lathe..or give me firsthand experience of catching fish.

I hope you'll excuse my bragging about my Grandad. Now I'll get on to my comments.

The big boys stole his inventions. They made cosmetic changes but nothing that made an once of difference. My Grandad talked to an attorney and discovered it would cost a fortune to protect his patents. The only thing he really got, besides the satisfaction of inventing something good, was the pleasure of pointing out what a bunch of thieves the big pump manufacturers were that stole his desgns.

That was almost sixty years ago and I don't think things have changed much according to some of my inventor friends. But that shouldn't discourage anyone from the joy of using your brain and inventing whatever it is that you want to invent. There is immense satisfaction from being creative and that is worth a whole lot.

Other satisfaction to be had, if wanted. If some jerk steals your invention, get an attorney (on a contingency basis if possible) that thinks and acts like a pit bull. In my Grandad's day there weren't as many lawyers as we have now. Lawyers now are about as plentiful as maggots at the dump so there are lots of them around trying to make a fast buck. Lawsuites in this country are almost a sport. If you have to sue some jerk for stealing your invention, don't feel bad, enjoy the challenge.

Nice story about your Grandad...I ran a thread yonks ago about 'who was your engineering mentor' I guess he was yours.

Del

Thaks to all. Much Thanks.

So lets say I have a way to make a paper clip spectacularly desirable (which I do not). Should I:

Proto a model, write up (download) a non-disclosure, and start cold calling the great paper clip manufactures of the world, buy a plane ticket to Cleveland and have the suit pressed and prepare to awe them with my new added value item?

Or........

Yes... but I'd make an appointment and research the company first.

Hi Del.

Research the company to look for what? See if there is a long lost rellie in the executive department. Find out what the % of cat lovers are in the organisation. Find out if any of the employees have or have had contact or relies sitting in the patent office? Do you suggest that looking at their annual turn over will give you a hint about there impeccable dealings with third parties? How are you going to find out about 'out of court settlements' or pending court cases.

If rummel down loads a confidentiality agreement it will not be worth the space it takes up on his screen. If he prints it and doesn't run it past a legal eagle its wasted paper. He could impress the whole of Cleveland by using his paper clip to keep it together but I doubt it will hold and make it water tight. And water tight it better be.

Do not negotiate with out a Lawyer present. They get on well with the other lawyers.

Coming to think of it just let the lawyers do the deal and visit a bar in the mean time. You can meet up later on and get your result with no need to have a nice suit on or witness the ways things are handled. Lawyers can be a very jovial bunch and they hardly drink at all, even after a successful presentation and your product being on the world market 6 weeks later. Ah, I forgot, make sure you have some signed cheques at hand, your lawyer might even by you a drink.

Am I a party pooper or what? Have a go and keep clipping away.. Ky.

I was think of hanging about the reception area in a Humphrey Bogart coat and chatting up the secretaries.....

whoops sorry drifting off into fantasy land again.

Ok a company is hardly going to call it'self 'Flybynight & Rookham'.

But is it a long standing family company with good worker relations...or has it just been bought by some 'couldn't give a damn' financial outfit?

They always say research a company when applying for a job...by the same token...is it going to tell you anything?

I dunno....whatever... maybe the cat lover% is the clincher?

Anyhow CR3 knows I'm an imbecile....so ....

Del

More or less.

I'd file at least a provisional, which can help get you in the door of a VC firm. I'd also not expect a lot of success with manufacturers -- many have r&d departments with a vested interest in ignoring things from outside. Also, I know that promotional and testing expenses quickly get out of hand. leaving you with bills, but still no one to fund your idea.

My preference would be to try to make a business out of the idea. Finding a contract manufacturer is easy -- the tables are turned -- they are selling you on their services, rather than you selling your idea. If your product is close to something on the market, and you can eat into their market share, then that's great, they should buy you out, and you go onto your next idea.

Starting your own business requires money, even if the manufacturing is done by someone else. In some cases, the manufacturer will help, if tooling costs are low. Plastics manufacturers, especially, will be happy to tool up for a small product, if they have excess capacity.

If your idea is really like a paper clip, or a new fastener, then there is certainly a chance that you could go to a manufacture of fasteners and get your thing produced as part of their product line. I wouldn't count on a NDA to keep them from simply taking the idea and running with it, though. A provisional would help to show that it really was your idea -- and most companies like to avoid bad press so will not steal idea willy-nilly.

For breakthrough ideas (let's say a house paint that is a PV cell with 50% efficiency), you might think "Why publish the idea (by filing a provisional) knowing that some well- funded company may take the idea, modify it slightly, and claim if for their own?" I don't have a good answer, other than that in such a case, you might seek out people, through networking, who are true angel investors who really want to see your idea succeed and who have the capital and clout to defend a patent.

BTW -- take all of this as mainly pure opinion, and the result of having read a lot about the subject, and having had some contact with a high-powered law firm that did some IPOs for household names. I can't say all this has worked for me personally -- it's mainly hearsay. It's not too hard to go from ordinary guy to paper millionaire back to ordinary guy pretty quickly.

G'day ken.

For breakthrough ideas (let's say a house paint that is a PV cell with 50% efficiency),

This borders on the spooky. With this one sentence you have described what my invention is about. It is more like a system though with out using the PV cell aspect, not yet at least. It is a shame I can't reveal any details but trust me, if it is the last thing I do, I will avoid failing this time around. The inventor is usually the one to fail, not the invention.

This discussion is starting to become fruitful while still being quite relaxed. It is helping me and hopefully others in understanding the complexities of what happens when and why and who with and for how much, why not with these markets or the other law firm and/or the patent attorney's and in the end with how much money by who and couldn't it be done for much less and how are the shares going to be distributed.......

The patent claims become irrelevant in the end. They are only a fraction of the whole operation. Only the large companies can afford this. It is an illusion to think an inventor can make it on the big stage. He will always be less important than the large painting or sculpture in the foyer. Being adequately reimbursed for the indignity of having to be part of the process wouldn't be much to ask for, would it?

It's a hard task but nobody is going to do it for us. We can just try clipping away and hoping for the best. Very encouraging stuff this.

Like Michael Angelo said:

"The sculpture is already there, you just have to take away every thing that does not look like the sculpture."

Or something along those lines. I will need some of those paper clips soon. See how we go. Have a good one. Ky.

Lot's of help but why is this such a royal pain in the arse?

Oh yeah....If It was easy anyone could do it. Ok, ok, I get it.

Hi CR3

Lot's of help but why is this such a royal pain in the arse?

Because there could be a lot of money made. There could also be heaps of money lost, sorry I hadn't mentioned that yet. Dollars from investors that is. They will also want a say in proceedings. Unqualified partners can be a real pain. Silent partners are not good either because there is no input or help from their side. One will need input to make the idea grow. The more you feed the idea the sooner you will find out if it will bear fruit. In the plant world it is called fertilising but has the same implications/effects in business. So I think.

To find the right team is another problem that was not mentioned. Many aspects will have to be working together at the same time so a team is a must.

Join forces with others, who you trust, if you really want to go ahead. You will know the right time when it comes and then go for it. If your idea gets a bit droopy fertilise it.

Hope it all works out for you and the invention. Paper Clips forever. Ky.

It is a pain. I'll repeat something I wrote above:

I'd recommend the Fast Trac (Kauffman) program for developing a business. It's offered at many unieversities, entrepreneurial development centers, etc. Extremely helpful.

This costs a little ($1,100, I think when I took it) but it's worth about as much as the average college education to an inventor/entrepreneurial type. Although it doesn't make the process easy, it certainly helps to make sure you are not wasting your time. Another HUGE benefit is the hot-shot lawyers, accountants, entrepreneurs, etc who come in as guest speakers. Many of them are really inspiring, and you can come away from some of the talks thinking: Gosh, this really does work and it's not all that hard -- and that alone makes it easier. Also helping make it easier are your classmates, who can give you ideas and encouragement. When I took the course, the local banks would offer lower rates to graduates, because they knew they'd have a better chance of getting the money back.

For further inspiration:

Dr Donald Panoz developed and patented "the patch" used for things like delivering low level nicotine for help in stopping smoking. He worked within a pharma company at the time (if I recall), and they nixed the idea. He started his own company, brought out the technology and has made $billions. He has since funded his son's car company located near here, which make a quite nice sports car a version of which has won at Le Mans.

A defense of the possibility of getting your patented ideas stolen is to write the original patent claims as broad as possible yet still be able to get a patent. This makes it harder for copycats to legally get around your patent.

Another issue that came up in this thread is somebody patenting something that is a new idea but was inevitable. The patent office is only suppose to issue patents when the idea is "not obvious to someone skilled in the particular field". To receive a patent the idea must be "not obvious" to other EE's (if electrical), it must be new and unexpected.

The start of most patent lines of thought, by inventors is the desire to commercialize our brilliant ideas. Understanding a little about this may help us to decide if a patent is worth it. For my brilliant ideas (hehe) I found the book "The Inventors Bible" by Ron Docie very helpful.