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Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/06/2007 6:16 PM

As some of you know, I have prototyped a high efficiency vehicle for production and for entry into the Automotive X Prize contest. It gets 700 mpg in its plug-in form. If you read through this thread, you can see the logic (illogic?) used to arrive at that number.

With a plug-in vehicle, two sources of energy are used: electricity (typically from the grid), and gasoline. When the Aptera people picked a figure for their vehicle, they arbitrarily used a 120 mile drive. When I came up with my equally ludicrous figure, I arbitrarily picked an average daily commuting distance. Following their lead, I completely ignored the dollar and environmental cost of electricity -- which (in both respects) is in the same ballpark as gasoline if, as in a hybrid, the gasoline is used relatively efficiently (i.e relative to awful).

I'd favor a standard for electric and plug-in vehicles that accurately states the watt hours used per mile, and the range on battery power alone. Equivalent mpg is far too prone to claims that border on fraudulent.

For example, here's an article about a 300 mpg Prius. Does it make sense that a Prius could get the same mileage as an Aptera, given that the Aptera is less than half the weight, lower in frontal area, has a drag coefficient less than half that of the Prius, and has a much more highly loaded, smaller engine? You can see how deceptive these claims can be: For every claim a competitor makes, I could simply shorten my "typical commuting distance": if it gets below 30 miles then I get infinite mpg -- beat that!

One would hope that a standard for mileage claims would be not have to be legislated -- but it has already been done for ordinary cars, and needs to be done for electric cars and plug-in hybrids. In these days, when the energy you use has security, environmental, and economic impacts, you deserve straight answers. Write your congressman.

PS: There is already a calculation used by the EPA for CAFE purposes that some electric car companies have picked up on. If you read through this piece of the Federal Register you can see how convoluted things can get. Their basic calculation for well-to-wheels gasoline equivalent in the center of page 36987 is about as expected. But then they go on to add a scarcity factor of 6.67, because they want to promote alternative fuels. If you go to the end of the document, you'll see that "equivalent" mileage figures can therefore get very high. My Pod One (realistically a 120 mpg vehicle) would get 745 mpg.

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#1

Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/07/2007 12:41 PM

Careful Ken else your car will start generating fuel and the tank will overflow!

(Or would that only happen when driving backwards down hill?)

Del

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/07/2007 2:26 PM

Very perceptive. Yes, the gas bubbles up out of the tank under two conditions: when braking while going forward, and, as you say, while driving backwards down a hill. Using our extra cost overflow recovery system, the smart consumer can, by planning to drive in forward or reverse as appropriate, come back home at the end of a day with petrol to sell to the neighbors.

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#4
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Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/08/2007 12:02 AM

Perhaps you could start working on a refrigerator that will convert all of that free fuel into food. That would free up more farmland for ethanol production.

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#5
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Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/08/2007 3:53 PM

Excellent thought! Carbohydrates and hydrocarbons are certainly very close family members, both organic -- and I'm sure I have things in the back of the fridge that are fermenting, despite the low temperature.

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#12
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Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/10/2007 8:48 AM

Don't be surprised if your words end up as part of the claims by some unscrupulous company (he he)! Seriously I think two thirds of the "marketing professionals" should be scrubbing toilets for a living. At least they wouldn't be as successful at misleading non-technical people.

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#13
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Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/10/2007 9:52 AM

I have been pouring over my calculations for three days straight. I now have a revision of your pod undergoing testing as I write this. I have moved the seat to face to the rear. I have replaced the tiny front tire that you had used with a huge 48" tall tire. Finally I relocated the steering system to work on the rear tires instead. It now rolls downhill on level ground. If my calculations are correct, I will be able to drive for 324 miles before I will need to stop at a gas station and sell them the entire contents of the 12.3 gallon fuel tank. If I change to a larger fuel tank, I may be able to go up to 500 miles between stops.

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#14
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Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/10/2007 12:08 PM

This is most upsetting -- I suspect you have been lurking around our development lab! Your modifications are very nearly identical to some we recently completed.

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#16
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Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/10/2007 2:19 PM

My plug in only electric vehicle is currently getting 1000 miles per gallon... and it just gets better and better and better. I expect this to continue at least until I pull the gallon of gas out of the back, and put it in the lawn mower.

In reality Ken, I don't even own an electric vehicle, but it shows the absurdity one can go to in making mileage claims.

Bill

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#3

Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/07/2007 4:25 PM

It is pretty bad the hoopla they will shovel out to sell some thing.

After reading the thread went to the manufactures web site.

Even they showed a ridiculous graph of MPG to Miles Driven

They claim that the vehicle will get about 140 MPG. Running a gas generator with electric drive. Over night recharge will consume about $ 2.00 worth of electricity at California rates. Will do 85 MPH. Is to be registered as a motorcycle.

If the 140 MPG holds up not to bad.

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#6

Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/08/2007 6:05 PM

Good One Ken,


The only cars I know that are available that can get 700 mpg need a 670 downhill run.

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#7
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Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/08/2007 9:34 PM

Ot does seem that each developer or group of them puffs the figures to favor themselves and writes the specifications to favor their pet project. The EV people seem to think EVs don't pollute, conveniently forgetting how electricity is made. The hydrogen crowd is the same. Biofuels are suddenly bad, although renewable, because of decreased biodiversity and higher food prices, and it is the same people who wanted renewable fuels who now oppose them. It is strange that every practical, large-scale source of energy is opposed by some environmental group and that many of them also feel there are too many people on Earth, are vegans or members of PETA. Also odd that they support one political party that is determined to control and tax everyone in the name of "Saving the Planet".


It is a challenge to build a vehicle that will travel farther on a given amount of fuel/energy than any other, but the rules must be the same for all.

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/09/2007 7:27 PM

Ot does seem that each developer or group of them puffs the figures to favor themselves and writes the specifications to favor their pet project.

It sure does! I have a book on investment in CleanTech (this month's buzzword) and in it they quote "400-500mpg of the 15% petroleum gasoline in the tank" for e85. Given an efficient hybrid, such a figure is technically possible but completely misleading in the sense that it suggests that the fuel is wonderfully efficient, which it is not. Imagine if it run my 700 mpg vehicle (technically true for my given arbitrary conditions) and run it on e85: 4666 mpg. (It's a simple matter of completely ignoring the the energy content and cost of two fuels and focusing only on one. )

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#8

Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/09/2007 5:35 PM

Sorry Ken, my bicycle outperforms your car. Infinite, up to the point where I stop and use my little gas stove to cook my lunch!

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/09/2007 7:34 PM

Sounds like you should be cooking your lunch by strapping it to your brake calipers. Regenerative braking.

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#11
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Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/10/2007 5:33 AM

Tried it. Tasted disgusting. Get some perspective, there are limits to how far one will go to save the planet!

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#15
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Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/10/2007 12:22 PM

Wouldn't that be regenerative BAKING?

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#17
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Re: Finally! A real 700 mpg car.

12/10/2007 4:42 PM

Yes, definitely! Wish I'd thought of it .

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#18

A better than 700 mpg car - In the 1950's

01/10/2008 9:17 PM

I was referred to this earlier Thread http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/16228/Johnathan-Goodwin-claims-he-can-make-a-2005-H3-Hummer-get-60-miles-to-the-gallon

Now you all know that I've seen a few years on this noble planet, and back in the 1950's I was proud to be the happy owner of a car which ran even further, on much less.

Petrol (gasoline = gas to the US Folks) was at that time around ninepence per Imperial gallon (None of that short US gallon stuff here, thank you).

My car was painted red, same as the famous Ferrari cars, which I believe now was the last crucial specification needed to obtain such high mileage from such little petrol, in those earlier days of yesteryear.

My car travelled from Christchurch via the Pig Root saddle in North Otago, to Central Otago, then to Invercargill, then back to Christchurch, a journey up and down hills, over dales, being buffeted by winds of various speeds from various quarters,. etc.

All in all, a most interesting journey which I remember well, as I sit here in my rocking chair, reminiscing.

Now where was I?

Ah, yes.........the long trip of the red-painted car, which mileage I estimate as being some 940 miles (we used the sensible mile measure in those days, not the new-fangled kilometres), add on another 60 miles or so, for the around-town mileage at both ends, and the trip would have exceeded 1,000 Statute miles, and in all that trip, my red-painted car used no petrol at all.

I drove my red-painted car in many places over several years.

The red-painted car went missing, but was later found, hidden in some bushes, and in spite of extensive enquiries, the culprit was never found.

Unfortunately I have no photo of that record-breaking, ever so efficient car.

But extensive research gave a website where a car similar to mine may be purchased, even today, for those interested.

I should point out that these cars are still made in New Zealand, where people are very inventive, often making an essential item out of a few paper bags and a piece of number 8 wire.

I have no financial interest in the cars being sold these days, delivery costs are extra, they are exported to many countries, and you may look here to purchase one.

Kind Regards....

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#19
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Re: A better than 700 mpg car - In the 1950's

01/10/2008 10:33 PM

A wonderful story. Thanks, Ken

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