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Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/04/2021 11:14 AM

SpaceTime is Bent by Mass

The question is how does it bend it?

My hypothesis is this:

Space must occupy every distance(spacetime) between all objects,regardless of size,down to the subatomic level.

It takes longer for ST to wend it’s way through the twists and turns of matter than if it propagated through empty space.

This crooked path creates a warp in space time.
The more mass,the more crooked the path,and consequently,the more curvature of Space Time.

This is similar to the deflection of light though water.

All constructive comments on this are always welcome.

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Anonymous Poster #1
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Re: Why does mass bend space time?

10/04/2021 11:23 AM
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#3
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Re: Why does mass bend space time?

10/04/2021 12:41 PM

Excellent link!

Why is a red rock red?

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#4
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Re: Why does mass bend space time?

10/04/2021 12:55 PM

Is it a property of the rock,or the light?

In the dark,it is black.

What color is the rock to a color blind person?

Is it a matter of our perception and mental interpretation based on input from our optical nerves?

Is the color only in our minds?

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#6
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Re: Why does mass bend space time?

10/04/2021 3:48 PM

Black, brown, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet, gray, white are just convenient short hand notations to tell us which components of the electromagnetic spectrum are reflected and which are absorbed.

That 650 nm lipstick really complements your shoes.

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#25
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Re: Why does mass bend space time?

10/06/2021 8:30 AM

We need a gizmo like a temp gun that gives the readout of the reflected wavelength and surface reflectivity of the source....then you could compare two different colors and textures to see if they are visually pleasing...

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#10
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Re: Why does mass bend space time?

10/04/2021 8:54 PM

From your reply, I conclude that you did not comprehend or attempt to understand the link provided by the AP.

Thus I also conclude, cognitive stagnation is either imminent or already achieved.

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#39
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Re: Why does mass bend space time?

10/08/2021 8:56 AM

I do not respond to or acknowledge Anonymous contributors.They are a non-entity.

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#28
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Re: Why does mass bend space time?

10/07/2021 8:19 AM

Why is a red rock red?

At least there is a visualizable explanation to this question, having to do with the light wavelengths absorbed by the chemical bonds.

'Why matter bends spacetime is because that's what it does' offers no more understanding, IMHO.

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#2

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/04/2021 11:31 AM

Objection: calls for Philosophy.

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#55
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/12/2021 3:48 AM

If scientists ever reach the top of the mountain of knowledge they will a find a philosopher sitting there saying"What took you so long,grasshopper?"

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#56
In reply to #55

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/12/2021 10:21 AM

Baloney, HTRN.

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Anonymous Poster #2
#58
In reply to #56

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/13/2021 7:36 AM

I'll see your Boloney,and raise you two slices of Bogogna and 1 slice of Salami.

Either call or raise the bet.

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#5

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/04/2021 1:25 PM

Science is descriptive. It attempts to answer the question, "How?" It does not ask, and in fact, blinks with incomprehension when presented with any question, "Why?" Science asks, for example, "How did we come to be?", but it does not ask, "Why did we come to be?" That, and other 'why' questions are the purview of philosophy and religion.

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#7

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/04/2021 4:38 PM

It does not. Space has nothing to bend and time has constant rate and is omnipresent.

Like length, time comes from displacement(motion), not space. Time is the duration of length(motion).

Time-Length or Length-Time....is the correct concept. Motion. Any and all motion is energy. That's all energy is.........motion.

Space-time is necessary to explain light, not gravity. All of our science is based on the consensus of light velocity.

And that consensus is wrong, just like(centuries of observation and measurement) the consensus of elliptical orbits, is wrong and only apparent.
Nature does not use pi, for rotations.

Our reality has two parts. Nature(non-living) and Supernature(life).

Why and how nature came into existence can not be answered.

But WHY and HOW nature(light and mass) moves can be answered. With mechanics, and a little intellect.

Only intellect or intuition, can separate apparency from reality.

One hundred years is long enough for mathematical apparency.

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#11
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/04/2021 9:07 PM

I do not agree that "Why?' can be answered, or is answered, by science. Peel back the layers and you always end up at an unanswerable 'why'. An apple falls to the ground - why? Because of gravity. Why is there gravity? Because gravity is a property of mass. Why is gravity a property of mass? Because (as per Rixter's post) quarks moving at relativistic speed within the nucleon causes inertia which results in a gravitational mass-effect. Why does the gravitational mass-effect of quarks cause an apple to fall to the ground? Because that is what gravity does. But why does gravity do that? Because gravity is a property of mass... (and around we go again). It is all descriptive. It is all about 'how', not about 'why'.

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#52
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/10/2021 4:21 PM

....and why is that so?

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#38
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/08/2021 8:53 AM

Reality is all in your mind.

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#40
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/08/2021 9:34 AM

...by definition, because it comes in via a range of transducers and algorithms. What the brain witnesses and records is simply a projection of that onto the inside of the cranium.

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#42
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/08/2021 12:56 PM

My mind is not that big.

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#8

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/04/2021 4:43 PM

Warped spacetime tells matter how to move, matter tells spacetime how to curve. The former is fairly straightforward, the latter pretty much of a puzzle.

Almost all of mass consists of protons and neutrons, both of which consist of three quarks tightly bound together and moving at close to the velocity of light. Most of mass is really relativistic mass plus the mass of the energy stored in the strong force fields.

Perhaps in the extreme conditions inside the nucleons lies the secret of how matter bends spacetime.

"ABSTRACT

Quarks move within the nucleon at relativistic speeds. This causes intertia. This inertia results in gravitational mass-effect. For short distances this is the strong force, for distant objects it is gravity. This is due to an increase in the gravitational constant related to the velocity of objects moving at speeds close to the speed of light. This relation is calculable with a formula presented in the text."

Gravity and Quark Velocity Entanglement (scirp.org)

Quark Oscillation Causes Gravity (scirp.org)

It's an interesting idea...

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#9
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/04/2021 6:59 PM

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#15
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/05/2021 3:47 AM

Aspirin? Paracetamol? Cocodamol?

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#32
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/08/2021 4:48 AM

NO.Fookitall.

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#12
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/04/2021 9:22 PM

Almost all directly observed mass consists of protons and neutrons. We have indirectly observed that vastly most of the mass in the universe cannot be directly observed, at least we cannot with today's technology. Maybe this difficult to observe mass are actually protons and neutrons "cloaked" by a mysterious phenomenon. Maybe other hard to detect particles that are not neutrons and protons, account for most of the mass in the universe. Maybe something else explains this conundrum.

I would prefer this engineering forum would instead of wallowing in what astrophysics/cosmology doesn't know that we should propose how engineering might be able to fill in these gaps of knowledge. Examine the engineering required to explore these puzzles. I don't expect discussions on CR4 to suddenly solve conundrums puzzling the experts but I do hope for insight into why the experts are puzzled.

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#46
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/09/2021 10:27 AM

Yeah, I thought about "dark matter", but nobody knows what it is. For accounting for most of the mass in the universe, it sure is hard to find.

Maybe there are enough black holes to account for it.

Possible Link Between Primordial Black Holes and Dark Matter | NASA

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#47
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/09/2021 12:06 PM

That brings a question to my warped mind that maybe you or Jorrie could address. Do protons and neutrons retain their particulate properties of protons and neutrons once they are collapsed in a black hole, neutron star core, or any other form of collapsed matter? Maybe they just smoosh into a gluon ball.

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#49
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/09/2021 1:10 PM

In the very center of a large uniform mass there is an area where the gravitational forces from all directions balance out,and there is an area of zero gravity,even in a black hole.Our whole universe could be inside of a giant black hole.

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#50
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/10/2021 1:33 AM

No not with a black hole - near its center the gravitational force is boundless, i.e. tends to infinite. That's why we do not live inside of a giant black hole. Our universe is more like a white whole that spews things out, but also not quite - a white hole has a center and the universe does not.

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#51
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/10/2021 12:05 PM

In neutron stars, protons and electrons combine to form neutrons. Protons and neutrons are made of quarks, which, like electrons, are thought to be point-like particles. As far as I know, nobody really knows what happens after that, perhaps strings?

How does neutron star collapse into black hole? - Astronomy Stack Exchange

Close to a black hole time slows and comes to a stop at the event horizon from our viewpoint. So, from our point of view, it never happens, and everything falling in is still plastered on the outside. However, an observer falling into the black hole would still experience the passage of time, but would never be able to report to an observer on the outside. So we will probably never know.

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#13

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/05/2021 1:27 AM

Nothing escapes the force of gravity, mass and gravity are one in the same....only an opposite and equal force can combat it....

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#14

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/05/2021 2:54 AM

Because if mass did not bend space-time, there would be no gravity, and everything would have fallen apart long ago.

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#18
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/05/2021 8:39 AM

But why do you hold the presupposition that it is essential that things hold together?

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#16

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/05/2021 3:51 AM

What is space time? Space is the inhabitant of an intellectual bankrupts head and the time is how long they speak before you become aware of their deficiencies.

So does that make space time a short term vacuum?

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#17

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/05/2021 6:23 AM

Space-Time is a useful concept. It represents a concept of reality but is not the Reality itself.

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#35
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/08/2021 5:19 AM

We have only a very brief snapshot of our universe,based on humanities' age,and the limits of C.We are physically trapped by time.We can only transcend it in our minds.

The expansion could be just a part of a cycle of expansion,and contraction,and we cannot see or even imagine it...well we can imagine the big crunch.

The bubble may burst or contract sometime in the far future,before the universe dies a heat death.(Of course,there may also be honest politicians and lawyers and car salesmen,but I am not betting on it).

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#41
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/08/2021 12:55 PM

No, we don't have a brief snapshot of our universe. Because the speed of light is finite we look back in time to other parts of our universe when we examine the stars. We've seen that for a very long time the physical laws that govern our part of the universe have not changed. We've even seen when those laws appear to change.

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#43
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/08/2021 5:43 PM

We do not know what is happening beyond outer edges of our visible universe are doing NOW(our local relative NOW),only what was happening eons ago.

Much of the whole universe is beyond our ability to see.

The expansion,as we see it now, may be a small segment of the process.

We are presuming that things will proceed at the current rate.

It may be collapsing and we would not be able to see it for millions or billions of years.

Of course,by then we will probably be extinct or will have evolved into a species that can travel faster than C,perhaps like entangled particles.

So in Deep Endless Time,we can comprehend merely a snap shot of the whole.

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#44
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/08/2021 9:50 PM

You are now diving into complete solipsism, where nothing can be known about now. That's right, one can never know about NOW. Everything you know is in the past, nothing can be known about the present. Everything your sensory organs detect takes milliseconds to reach your brain and if you're lucky the mind there will comprehend a few milliseconds later what once happened.

Milliseconds or millions of millennia the result is still the same. A mind can only comprehend the past. I guess one could call this a temporal solipsism. So why this lonely pursuit to accept only what happens NOW when you can never know NOW.

I find all of the forms of solipsism an interesting, amusing venture to delve into with an adult beverage but ultimately I find it to be nothing more than a self-indulgent waste of time. I'm certain many other professionals (psychiatrists, social workers, police, philosophers, bartenders, priests, etc.) do find the codification of solipsism and the many other studies of the mind to be highly useful and critically important to understand. From time to time I too find understanding many of the methods used by some minds to be useful. When that method prevents me or that mind to grow I avoid that method or individual whenever possible. Some aspects of solipsism seem to relish ignorance.

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#45
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/09/2021 5:45 AM

I have merely expressed one of many ideas I have contemplated,but have not made it a frame of mind,nor does it hinder or occupy my everyday life or thoughts.

I am very tolerant of other's opinions,regardless of how far strung or strung out they may seem.Even the wildest ideas may have some merit.Nothing is all bad or all good. most ideas fall into the giant gray area of unknowns.Certainly we are captive to our senses and our mental constructs of reality,and each of us see the world differently than anyone else.There are people that have more rods and cones in their eyes that allow them to see millions of colors that are invisible to ordinary humans.These abilities are testable,but there are also humans that can "see" beyond the accepted norms of perception in other areas as well,and these abilities are currently not testable,but that does not mean they do not exist.

I tolerate without contempt or distress even the most outrageous opinions,even those that attempt to belittle others for their non conformity.

IMHO:Intolerance is the root of most problems in our world.

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#48
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/09/2021 12:55 PM

<Sigh>

I was hoping you'd be willing to explore my point and the implied question it asks. I guess I must explicitly ask the question.

What conditions allow us to accurately perceive what is happening NOW despite the delay of our receptors?

I'll give you an example that just happened. I know that I NOW have snail mail sitting in my mailbox. I saw the mailman stop at my mailbox for a brief period of time and then drive off. Before I get up to retrieve this mail I know that some mail is in this green box. Why do I know this?

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#57
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/13/2021 7:31 AM

IMHO:

There is no unique action.

All action comes in pairs;action/reaction.

Every action that we see in the universe was accompanied by an equal and opposite reaction.

The Big Bang is why you know this and the sequence of events that followed,even your thoughts,which you think you originated.

If you follow this line of thought objectively,without bias or subjectivity(which is not totally possible) trace back to the source,and you will see the light.

Time is motion.No motion,no time.Time cannot be measured without motion on some level,even atomic clocks.Time is simply our attempt to quantify motion.

As a result of that train of thought,nothing is truly random,not even atomic decay.

Sunspot activity affects atomic decay,a supposedly random event which has been proven recently.

At the same time as the BB explosion there was a Big Implosion(BI);Another universe where the laws of physics are reversed from ours.

When quantum particles "pop into existence" in our universe,opposite particles "pop" into existence in the other universe.

Nature seeks balance.Charges tend to even out.

Water seeks it's own level.So it is with all things.

And like water,space is a medium which matter moves through.

Without motion,it is simply space,not spacetime.

And motion is a change in the relative position,or space between,two or more items.

There are no truly stationary observable objects in our known universe.

Gravity is the wake generated by matter or energy moving through spacetime.

The more concentrated the mass or energy,the bigger the wake.

As for what caused the BB and the BI,I don't know,but I wonder.

Why?

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#59
In reply to #57

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/13/2021 8:11 AM

Why?

Here's why:

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#60
In reply to #57

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/13/2021 10:04 AM

You still evade my question. You have spouted a stream of related only to each other conclusions but none of them relate to my question. I'll paraphrase my question for clarity.

How can we know anything about what is happening NOW when everything we perceive is in the past?

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#61
In reply to #60

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/13/2021 10:49 AM

There is no absolute "Now" as Albert said, time is relative.Even two people passing each other on the street going in opposite directions will have different relative time as they approach,and as they depart,reference to a "stationary" object.

But as a general reference,I use the term to refer to what we generally consider as contemporaneous "Now".

You are trying to pick apart the language because you cannot answer the real question,but instead try to divert it to a question of semantics.

WHY do you do this?

Are we having fun yet?

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#62
In reply to #61

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/13/2021 2:47 PM

Yes, as Einstein pointed out there is no unique NOW. Everyone has their perspective of what is NOW. But that construction does not apply to my mailbox scenario for I am the only one concerned with that NOW.

I've stated my question fairly clearly. I even paraphrased it in the hope you'd consider the simple poser. The semantics matter when there are multiple meanings for a word. (I'm not sure which real question you are referring to but that's another story.)

The fact that there are so many meanings and perspectives for NOW proves the point I was hoping to get to with my question answered. We do know many things that are happening NOW in interstellar and even intergalactic space. Regardless of your personal, solipsistic understandings of space or now. We don't know everything that is happening out there. We don't know everything that is happening here. Many of the things we know have codified uncertainties to our knowledge but this doesn't negate our knowledge of now. It enhances our knowledge.

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#19

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/05/2021 8:48 AM

@HTRN: How do you propose to test your hypothesis?

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#21
In reply to #19

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/05/2021 9:28 AM

I cannot test it,which is why it is simply a hypothesis,not a theory.

Space time cannot penetrate"Pure Matter";that is matter with no internal spaces,(Perhaps strings?) so it must go around it,in all dimensions.

I think it would probably give the same results as the trampoline analogy.

I merely have my toe in an ocean of unknowns,and expressing a "What if.." hypothesis.

I do not claim to really know anything about the big picture.

I thank you for your valuable feedback as always.

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/05/2021 2:47 PM

How about this one for an untestable "pseudo" hypothesis on why gravity sucks.

We know that the gravitational field possesses negative energy, which on the large scale seems to precisely balance out the positive matter energy-momentum in our observable universe - the "ultimate free lunch" idea.

This mean that all the positive energy we see around is just a loan from the vacuum. And this loan has to be repaid some day. Is gravity just the action of the vacuum to claim back this debt?

If the present mainstream cosmology theory us correct, this seems to be the case for the very long term. In the Lambda cold dark matter cosmic model, all matter will eventually end up in black holes. In an unimaginable long time after that, those black holes will evaporate through Hawking radiation and the loan will finally have been fully repaid to the vacuum.

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/06/2021 3:16 AM

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#24
In reply to #22

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/06/2021 6:30 AM

An interest-free loan?Now that is interesting!

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#26
In reply to #24

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/07/2021 5:43 AM
"

An interest-free loan? Now that is interesting!"

Only "free" on the surface. Look down deeper and you may notice that the lender was very shrewd. The vacuum kept a tiny share of the enterprise (which we call the universe) to itself in the form of Einstein's cosmological constant Λ, according to this formula (presumably in the fine print).

H2 - 8(pi G ρ + Λc2)/3 = 0,

representing the (zero) total energy of the system at any time. Here H is Hubble's constant and its square represents the kinetic energy of expansion and ρ is the mass density of the universe, which obviously dilutes away as expansion happens. The vacuum's share Λ remains constant, so over time the vacuum claims the whole enterprise.

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/07/2021 7:17 AM

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#34
In reply to #26

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/08/2021 4:52 AM

Simple.I forgot about that.

"Now I see!" said the blind carpenter,as he picked up his hammer and saw.

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#33
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/08/2021 4:49 AM

Any hypothesis is untested.Why "Pseudo"?

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#36
In reply to #33

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/08/2021 8:34 AM

Why "Pseudo?"

As in not a properly formulated hypothesis. Could also be classified as pseudo science...

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#37
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Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/08/2021 8:49 AM

Ok,I will accept that it is presently not testable,so it does not fit the scientific definition of hypothesis.

Just call it a fleeting thought,or a passing idea,like passing gas,a "brain fart" if you please.Whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy is ok by me.

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#20

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/05/2021 9:17 AM

The more or denser the matter, the more gravity that exists, this then compresses space time, the closer you get to the mass the more compressed the ST...this is why clocks run slower near the surface of the Earth than they do 100 miles above the surface....The denser ST creates a lens effect that can bend the light...

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#29

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/07/2021 11:33 AM

I believe that time, is the most NON precise entity that we measure. All of our clocks use oscillation for tic rate. Atomic clocks do. Electronic clocks do. ANY clock.

A pendulum oscillation changes with height too.

This error about time......carries thru all science that follows.......any requires foolish explanations about time being a variable. Or local.

In any oscillation, we have an increase in velocity, a decrease in velocity to a full stop, and then another increase in reverse velocity, a decrease in velocity to a full stop again.

Check that out. A speed up...a speed down to stop....reverse.....speed up again....slow down again til stop......reverse......and repeat.

Two forces to swing in one direction....a reversal force.....and two more forces to swing back the other way.

Think about how all those dynamics.....have to stay matched.....to give you a constant tic rate.

ANY acceleration......or a gravity gradient.....will throw that match off......and vary the tic rate.

Many, many education people believe that the change in that tic rate.......proves that TIME itself is changing.

Let's take a vertical shaft or axle.......and attach gears at every one hundred feet......10 gears for a thousand foot vertical shaft.

Set an atomic clock beside every gear to measure the rotation rate. Spin shaft at constant rate.

What do your clocks tell you? Your clocks will tell you that each gear is moving at a different RPM.

Now, do you believe your clock?........or do you believe the physical mechanics? Turn the shaft to the horizontal......now, they all have the same RPM.

Some educated people......actually believe that each gear IS rotating at a different rate!!!!!! That's how delusional our science is.

If you want to measure time.......USE a rotational time piece. A rotation only has one direction, one acceleration and both are constant. A rational clock, properly oriented, is immune to acceleration and a gravity gradient. Immune to SPACE-TIME.

Don't ever let math, or science, over ride your common sense.

This mis-conception about time, comes from the mis-conception about light.

But that's another failure of science.

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/07/2021 1:37 PM

You really are easily confused.

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#31

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/07/2021 5:02 PM

SpaceTime is Bent by Mass

The question is how does it bend it?

From what I read, spacetime is bent by mass (equivalent to energy) but also by momentum and energy, according to the stress-energy tensor term in Einstein's equation. His equation is descriptive, in that it describes what happens, but not why. So any theory of "why" would have to include energy, momentum, and mass.

Maybe, as it seems in Quantum theory, there may be no "why" that we can understand...

"The stress–energy tensor, sometimes called the stress–energy–momentum tensor or the energy–momentum tensor, is a tensor physical quantity that describes the density and flux of energy and momentum in spacetime, generalizing the stress tensor of Newtonian physics. It is an attribute of matter, radiation, and non-gravitational force fields. This density and flux of energy and momentum are the sources of the gravitational field in the Einstein field equations of general relativity, just as mass density is the source of such a field in Newtonian gravity."

Stress–energy tensor - Wikipedia

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#53

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/11/2021 4:36 PM

Why not? (Seriously, why not?)

One answer to the original question might be, because (some) God dictated so. That answer might satisfy some, but perhaps not all.

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#54
In reply to #53

Re: Why Does Mass Bend Space Time?

10/12/2021 3:32 AM

Hence #2⇑.

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