California Fires

Was going to see if the fires are contained, I rarely heard anything about that the past few days, due to DOGE uncoverng corruption/abuse.

I agree, As soon as possible to seed. Even though the rain, as few as it may come, would be devastating.

According to Pennington Lawn and Garden centipede grass does not do well with salt. Other grasses do well in Southern California and are already self-seeded. However, the germination time may prevent soil from being held in time for the upcoming mud season.

In southern California, "Mud Season" could only be a few days after a significant rainfall, which is relatively rare. There is no snow melting...

That is precisely my point. It takes time for seeds to germinate into soil-holding plants. A heavy rain storm will not wait for those plants to grow.

If the soil is dry, which it is, those seeds may not germinate and stay dormant.

What I was sort of objecting to was the term "muddy season". To me, that term implies several weeks of mud, which just does not occur in southern CA. I'd think "muddy period", or something similar, would be more appropriate. Even here in north central CA, the mud only lasts a few days after a heavy rainstorm, except in permanently shaded areas or low areas with poor drainage.

If there is no ground cover, depending on the soil time where the water has a hard time ‘soaking’ in. Then it just runs downhill. It would take long for the mud to appear.

The seed is there already, it's just gonna be a few weeks before it sprouts in full. Next rain is due on Wednesday. There is going to be washout. We saw that up here in wine country after the Tubbs fire that wiped out Wikiup and Coffee Park in Santa Rosa. We're still dealing with the saturation up here. Lost a house into Russian River a couple days ago, and another in Rincoln Valley to a landslide. Top surface diversion and silt capture is what is needed immediately, which is what they are trying to do.

Yes. I lived in Marin for about four years back in the mid-to-late eighties. I loved the scenery. The weather and soil mechanics that make that spectacular scenery is exactly why it is so hard to manage it as you well know.

I'm afraid grasses just won't get deep enough to prevent the slides once it gets wet enough. And trees just don't get enough time to put down enough roots to keep them from sliding down the hill as well. That and the long periods of dry weather, means that many type of trees won't survive. I seem to recall March typically was the 'green' month where all the brown hills turned green for a few weeks, then back to brown again until next March.

I remember visiting a friend at their house in Fairfax, just west of San Rafael. Their house was on the side of an impossibly steep hill, held in place with steel I-beams that had been driven into the side of the hill. The roads up there were little more than goat trails (by today's standards). I wouldn't be surprised that in the last forty years that all those houses ended up at the bottom of the hill. Wish I could remember the street name. It was probably in the vicinity of Tamalpais Rd.

Mt. Tam Rd. in on the west side of Fairfax, CA

Do the street view to get the right impression.

I know every road down there. I used to have to turn my Tundra around on those "roads". Stopped doing work down the 101 corridor in Marin partially because it was so damn difficult to park and navigate! The other reason was more than a few of the clientele. I still work West Marin.

I did make an exception recently and will be in Tiburon. Not my favorite place to work but the money will be good!

Ok, try alfalfa. The roots can go 30 feet deep or more. Once established they should hold soil very well. This may not be the best time to seed, but start after the flood and mud seasons are over.

These fires happen every year--- plan ahead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfalfa

Alfalfa last about 5 years.

Let it grow wild. It will self-seed when the seeds drop to the ground. It is a perennial

It also will provide a high protein diet for birds and foraging animals.

Maybe this is a dumb question, maybe it isn't.

Many people and media sources talk of the mudslide danger going up as soon as a fire goes through. But, the fire seems to only destroy what is above ground and the mudslide protection seems to be provided by roots that are underground. Thus, what is really happening? Does the fire do significant root damage? Are big bunches of roots held together by what is above ground and therefore free to act like a larger number of small bunch of roots after the fire? Does the ash and charcoal create a slime layer that increases the saturation of the soil underneath and drag the soil along when the slime flows? Something else?

Imagine an umbrella made of screen wire. The water getting through the screen is finer than outside of the screen, having a lesser impact on the area below. The area outside the screen is impacted by heavier and higher velocity rain drops, each having an erosive effect on the soil.

The foliage of an unburned section disperses the energy of the rain drops and gives time for the soil and roots to absorb some of the water.

With the foliage gone, the soil is subjected to the full impact of the rain drops, with small bits being blasted off of the surface. This accumulated energy must go somewhere, and the path of lowest resistance is downhill.

Also, some soil may become so saturated that is becomes liquified and the roots left behind do not have enough "grip" to hold things together. The result is a landslide.

Not quite depending on how heavy a rain is. When the ground gets satuated even the trees roots can't stop it.

I've seen videos of trees in a landslide next to a residential area, where the mud slide goes right down the road enveloping cars. Unfortunately I couldn't find the video.

Here's a link from California.gov on warning of mud slides.

Was it this one?

This is the one that came to mind when you mentioned it. It took me a few minutes to find though. Search engines seemed to have forgotten this one.

That’s the one, there’s another one with the sod in the woods actually separated and would look like it was breathing… with the sod and trees heaving and hoing.

What is worse than a landslide?

A Clay Slide!

https://youtu.be/a5bU65XFzmA

Here is a geological explanation and 8mm film from 1978:

https://youtu.be/3q-qfNlEP4A

Seed Darts dropped from the air.

Easily adapted for grass seed as well a tree seedlings.

https://pubs.cif-ifc.org/doi/pdf/10.5558/tfc60086-2

Expensive? Probably, but what will be the cost if nothing is done?

I tried to edit my post above, but ran out of time, but here is what I wanted to add:

Seed Darts dropped from the air.

Easily adapted for grass seed as well a tree seedlings.

Perhaps the dart itself, or coated with a polymer acrylic coating to absorb water and help break the dart and provide moisture for the seed by absorbing moisture from the soil. Addition of nutrients for the seed could be added to the mix.

https://pubs.cif-ifc.org/doi/pdf/10.5558/tfc60086-2

Expensive? Probably, but what will be the cost if nothing is done?

But what if you do not want to grow kids?

Would it not make sense to plant some new trees also but done in such a way that allows for fire breaks and access roads together with some deep piling to help stop mudslides happening.
Also a large portion of the widespread damage is a direct result of typical house construction in the US,, nailing wood together.. major loss of property like Cal would not happen in England or Germany due to the construction of houses here, they are built out of brick or concrete, very few are made of timber.. having said that my house is timber built !!

Please explain more about how masonry construction will prevent damage from lateral forces--mud slides. I can see how it would be more resistant than timber, but not resistant enough when a mud slide can carry away whole intact houses.

Hi Lehman, if the houses were constructed out of brick or concrete and with proper drainage and streets laid out so they are not on top of each other it would be far easier to control the fires in the first place and people would not lose everything like happened in the hills. Also putting in concrete run-off channels will help cope with flash flooding.
My comments re Brick and Concrete houses was aimed at the original post which was based on the effects of the fire.
Mudslides happen as a result of the amount of water that comes down and soaked up in the ground, when the weight of the ground plus the water passes the critical stage you get a mudslide.
It all boils down to putting preventative measures in place to prevent massive fires and landslides happening in residential areas, steel piling, concrete buttresses, adequate drainage systems, houses spread out on graded terrasses etc.

Thanks. It's hard to decide how to respond, but it looks like you are thinking of a residential (even sparsely) area, but I had in mind the much more catastrophic scenario when the whole hillside comes down. Whatever is done in the way of protection/prevention will result in more expensive construction and probably NIMBY. One of the best prevention methods has been rejected for decades; that is, controlled burns to consume the underbrush.

Controlled burns certainly help, but they have complications. The foliage to be burned can't be too wet, or it won't burn. (Well, not in a controlled fashion.) The foliage can't be too dry, or hot embers can lose burn containment. The winds have to be moderate in speed and predictable to maintain containment. Then there's the complication of scattering the fauna in the area to be burned.

IMHO, managing domesticated herbivores (sheep, cattle, llamas, goats, etc.) to consume excess foliage is an underutilized solution.

One of the complicating factors in some areas is that the house lots are barely bigger than the house itself. In these situations, making houses more 'burn-proof' is going to be needed to reduce or slow the spread of fire once these fires reach residential areas.

What about using irrigation (re-claimed water?) to create fire blocks of fire resistant plants/trees that might not otherwise survive given the dry climate much of the year.

As opposed to Northern California…

To quote Baxter Black, cowboy poet mentioned this method years ago, using sheep to control undergrowth: "Only Ewes can prevent forest fires"

Goats browse the above ground foliage, sheep get down to the roots. Control each with electric fencing.

about 15-20 years ago, I read about a goat farmer that made a pretty good business of this.

I had some pigmy goats they were cute little critters. Especially the little bucks. Ramming your shins... it was quite a dramanic production.

Anyways, I was cleaning up some areas that over grew and they ate everything. One had passed away,... I think it was something he ate. so I had to control and measure their intake... (ie I tied them up) All had quite a round belly.

But they do eat and clean everything up... one thing I didn't care for. They would come unto the deck and we had goat pellets everywhere on the deck.