PE Options

You really need to call up your state board and ask them. I have found that the Texas board at least is pretty easy to contact and to find someone to talk to about such things. (I am a PE in Texas).

They may be able to work with you, but to be honest, I don't have high hope. Most boards are pretty particular that you have a degree from a 4 year ABET acredited school as well, (which makes it hard for people schooled in other countries to get a PE). That may exclude you right there.

Also be carful about what you say to them. In many states, to even call yourself an engineer if you don't have PE is against the law. In other states you have to have a degree in engineering to call yourself an engineer. In Texas if you provide services to the general public, and you refer to yourself as an engineer, you have to have a PE

Steve S. has given some good advice. Individual states are limited though in what they can do. Usually, it is not as hard as you descibe (4 references) to get to the FE exam because FE is taken while still in school. The second exam (PE) will be more difficult to get to. The prerequisites for this are the 4 year ABIT degree, success on the FE exam, 4 years relevent experience (working under PE's), and references.

When describing your background with a state board either in writing or over the phone, they will ask for an oral exam as soon as it becomes clear that these prerequisites are not in place. The oral exam will be used to determine whether in fact, you are ready become an engineer.

There is another path than the traditional one descibed above. Lacking a degree, but having "learned on the job", you may be allowed to take the PE test under the "grandfather provisions" of your particular state. Bad news here is you have to wait 20 years before qualifying under this provision.

There is no "hybrid" path available where you can pick and chose between the "traditional" path and the "grandfather" path methods. You will need to go back and complete your education.

All of this should be available at your state board on-line or check with the national board.

BD,

Mine is a similar story. You have more experience than me. I started working in Industrial Automation domain after college drop off. Could complete my graduation in Comp science and electronics. I would like to share my experience in starting a consultancy. My objective is end to end consultancy to manufacturing, process, batch and product based co.s. Also wants to start consultancy. Talking to
some California based co.s and results are good.

Let me know if I can exchange thoughts with you and if possible we can be business associates.

Thanks.
SD

SD-

I would be very interested in talking with you. Register and send me a PM with your contact info and we'll get together.

BD

One other route to finding PEs who would be willing to recommend you is to join the local chapter of an engineering society related to your field of work. Heck, you'll need the network anyway if you're going to start a consultancy.

But in any case this is going to take a fair amount of time no matter what path you choose. My suggestion would be to get the degree and the membership and then the PE and finally start the full blown consultancy. But it's tough to say for sure from this distance. Good luck with your career!

In California and, as Steve S. points out, in most states you must show an ABET accredited degree and specific amount of time with direct experience in the discipline you are applying in to take the PE exam. In CA you can, without any paper, take the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam and on passing be considered an Engineer in Training.

With all due respect (and I truely mean no disrespect)...but without a shingle to hang on the wall you are not an engineer any more than I am a doctor, and you should not fool yourself or others into calling yourself one. You are a technician, plain and simple, and will remain so until you complete that one last credit of higher education. It is one thing to have accomplished many fine engineering related tasks and jobs... to have engineered a thousand or ten thousand jobs... and a whole other thing to be legally considered an engineer.

I have a friend who calls himself a magician...but he still can't seem to make my ex-wife disappear.

California requirements for the FE exam are "after three years education or experience". Then if you pass the FE you will be considered an EIT. Of course, the problem will come back aagin later in CA when it comes time to upgrade from EIT to PE. Then you will need the degree, the second (PE) exam, the experience, and the references. Most other states are more strict that CA for what they want to allow you to take the FE. Many won't let you take it if you have left school.

OP Guest never stated what state he was seeking to become an engineer in. Go the this link to find your state's requirements.

http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensing_requirements_2005/#fe

Good luck,

I was in the same boat. At one time I got frustrated because my pay was so poor I almost quit engineering. I contacted two people. First I contacted the local University that offered an engineering degree and had them look at my record to determine my best course of action. They suggested that I take one course (dynamics) by coorspondence through the University of Wisconsin and then that allowed me to finish up with night courses. My situation was a little differnt because I had taken the FE (EIT as it was called then) while I was in school. The next call was to the board to inquire exactly what rules applied. Each states rules are a little different.

There seems to be quite a few of us 'tweeners' here. I am in the same boat, about 20 credits shy of my degree. The school I started at in Wisconsin dropped the mechanical engineering program, and the closest one that offers it is an hour drive each way. Not an option I have been able to afford the last few years. I am considered the design engineer where I work, handle all ASME pressure vessel code work, design calcs, FEA's, etc, but I'm not paid what a designer engineer is paid in this area. I understand that without the wall hanger, I'm not a real engineer. Now that i'm approaching 50, in my mind it's kinda late in the game, but I'd really like to make the next step and finish my career with something to look forward to into retirement.

jrpeck, I'd be interested in hearing what you find out. Or just exchanging ideas.

BD,

Check to see if the Society of Professional Engineers in your state has a mentoring program in which PEs who have not worked with you but are familiar with the type of work you have done can review/judge your experience and serve as a reference for you. Texas has this type of program, but I'm not sure about other states.

Good luck!!

I had a very similar path. Ran out of money & dropped out. However, no matter how much engineering work I performed, I never considered myself an engineer. You simply are not an engineer without the degree. No matter how many undeserving people have their diplomas.

I was lucky and had a manager that pushed me into finishing my last 30 hrs at the companies expense.

I also want to get my PE, but am honestly scared to death of the exams. It has been a long time since studying theory in school, and I find it insulting that my diploma is devalued.

Hope you find a solution to your career development.

I used to work in the consulting business in TX with a guy in your similar situation. He had 42 years experience (at the time, more now) designing electrical power substations, a technician degree, and was by all means an expert at substation design. He had literally "seen it all" when it came to substation design and was in my opinion ethical to be able to discern his qualifications regarding work. However sometime in the late nineties or early 2000's the laws changed the grandfather clause which disallowed him to register for licensure without an ABET accredited engineering degree. Steve S above is absolutely correct.

The excerpt below was taken from http://www.nspe.org/lc1-how.asp

Licensure laws vary from state to state and are exclusively under the control of the individual state legislatures. But generally, the licensure laws for professional engineers require graduation from an accredited engineering curriculum followed by approximately four years of responsible engineering experience, and finally the successful completion of a written exam. Some states may waive the written exam on the basis of education and experience, but the trend is toward an examination requirement.

I think much of the confusion here is centered around which one of two required exams (FE and PE) are needed, when, and why.

The FE is the hard one to pass unless it is taken while still in school. The PE is the easy one to pass, but difficult or impossible to be allowed to take unless the prerequisites (degree, references, experience, apprentice) are in place.

The FE exam tests what you learned in school. The PE tests what you learned in practice. Both exams are 8 hour exams, but there is quite a bit of time in between when they are taken. The apprenticing is done during this four year (typical) time interval.

Just to date myself I didn't take the EIT until I was out of college for about 7-8 years. I took a refresher course and passed the test. When did they change the name to FE?

I waited another 7-8 years before I took the PE exam. I took another refresher course and knew where to find examples in my reference books.

Therein lies the rub. For some reason, the exam formally known as EIT is now called FE, an acronym for "Fundamentals Exam". PE is still PE.

Yes, you can take the FE after 8 years. Mentors will tell you not to wait. My son is a third year Chem E at VT home for the break. I have been bugging him to take the FE. He doesn't seem too interested.

The review course prep has become a huge welfare industry in the US. I guess what I meant to say in an earlier post was "the FE test is a hard one after you have been out for 10 years if you don't review the material beforehand"

I just got mine in Texas on 04/07 so I am reasonably fresh on the requirements and you have to have a degree of some sort or another.

The board in Texas prefers but does not require that you have worked for your PE references, so I wrote my experience record up and had 3 PEs that I knew review it and make their recommendation, but that was for the PE exam. I took the FE when I was in school in Colorado and then transferred my score to Texas, I am surprised that you need references to sit for the FE. Is that common in other states?

No. I think OP has PE and FE mixed up.

Find your state requirements here:

http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensing_requirements_2005/#fe

I am not sure the people who say you can't call yourself an "engineer" without a PE are entirely correct. At least in Missouri, if you work in manufacturing or mining industries, you are not required to have a PE license to "call yourself an engineer". You may not call yourself a Professional Engineer, nor sign off on engineering drawings and documents that require the signature and usually the seal of a licensed Professional Engineer. These drawings usually include such things as buildings and foundation designs, sewers, utilities, chemical plants, roads, and other public works.

Product design, machine design, process design, are NOT usually included, unless the DRAWINGS themselves are for sale to others as your exclusive product. If such drawings are provided as part of another product or service, and are NOT specifically identified as approved by a Professional Engineer, they may be exempt. You might want to call your business a Manufacturing or Management consultancy and offer "Technical Services", such as product design, machine design, analysis, estimating, etc. or other products in conjunction with your practice. However, if you offer yourself as a Consulting Engineer without the PE you could find yourself in hot water. Many companies use the word Engineering in their name and never prepare PE approved drawings, since all internal engineering work goes into the design of their products or processes.

Although I did graduate from a ABET BS Engineering program, years ago I made a conscious decision NOT to take the EIT (now called Engineering Fundamentals) Exam in pursuit of the PE license. My father was a PE and he said he almost NEVER used it, although he did some consulting (which he called "Management Consulting") from time to time, and prepared drawings in conjunction with the analysis he submitted to his clients. Most of his career was spent in machine design and manufacturing management, and later technical sales. I have worked over 20 years in Product Design and Manufacturing Engineering, in several states, but of course always for some employer, not myself, so was never required to have a PE.

Do I regret not getting the PE, well yes, mainly from an image point of view, as my degree program was not a traditional M.E. program, and so sometimes I have to explain it to potential employers, while the EIT or PE license could have avoided that hassle. Occasionally I see a job where or "EIT or PE Registration required" prevents me from applying, but that is rare.

I have to admit, I am unfamiliar with the laws in Texas. They certainly do things differently down there!

It is really only important in the field of public works (Civil/ Structural/ Environmental/Survey).

The concept is that competency is important to ensure public health and safety.

The free market will regulate manufacturing. The product sucks, nobody buys it and the company goes out of business.

You must have the PE to become City (County, District, etc.) Engineer.

You must be a Registered Land Surveyor to file a subdivision plan.

Yes, you can call yourself an "engineer", but not "Registered Professional Engineer". I noticed a couple of times in this thread where statements were being made to the contrary but tried to let it slide. But since you bring it up, I must say that you are correct in this regard.

Ok, back to Texas law, which may not be applicable to all states, but in Texas if you offer your services to the public, you can not legally call yourself an engineer unless you have a Texas PE. Even if you have a PE from another state you cannot offer your services to the public and call yourself a engineer without a Texas PE.

Now, if you work for a private company, and you only do work for that company, you may call yourself an engineer. It only becomes a problem when you offer services to the public.

In addition, in Texas, companies that offer services to the public must also be registered in order to call their services engineering. The Bently division of General Electric got a ticket for not registering with the board a few years ago, as an example..

My understanding is that many states have similar law, but I have only read the Texas law, (something that is required of PE's in Texas).

See page 18 paragraph 1001.301 for basic requirements to call yourself an engineer.

See page 22 paragraph 1001.405 for company practice

1001.406 for a graduate engineer

http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/downloads/law_rules1207.pdf

eriew, this may not apply in your state but in Texas the PE board loves to fine people who call themselves engineers when they don't have a license...

HaHaHaHa! They will never catch me cuz I'm good to go! I don't think the OP ever told us what state he was interested in. In fact after reading this thread I think he lost all interest in engineering.

The laws will vary by State. Sounds like Texas is stricter than most.

I once went to a public hearing where this bozo was presenting a plan he supposedly had engineered. I asked a trick question just to see if he would prove to be what I suspected he was; an idiot. He did not disappoint.

Next day I call up the "Town Engineer" and ask him, "what's up with this guy? How could he ever pass an engineering exam". He says "oh, thats Tom alright, he's not an Engineer."

After I wrote a letter to the planning Board stating ".... please let the record show that Mr. xxxx is not a Registered Proefssional Engineer" I got a letter from his lawyer stating that I had defamed him and that I was about to be sued for liable. Turns out the Board of Registration was about to discipline him for practicing without a license, a low crime.

Several months later, his son, having the same first and last name, but a different middle initial became registered as a P.E. Dad kept the P.L.S. (Professional Land Surveyor) and from that point on, the son stamped the engineering drawings and dad went back to survey. We finally knew which Tom had which license in the database.

The Board in my state rewrote their statutes to further remove loopholds for clarity. But even now they don't go as far as Texas does.

Bottom line: Check with your state as mileage varies!

After I wrote a letter to the planning Board stating ".... please let the record show that Mr. xxxx is not a Registered Proefssional Engineer" I got a letter from his lawyer stating that I had defamed him and that I was about to be sued for liable. Turns out the Board of Registration was about to discipline him for practicing without a license, a low crime.

You did not mention whether or not his suit ever made it to court or whether you had to spend any money on legal fees to defend against it.

I'd like to know what law school the idiot lawyer graduated from and what state bar allowed him to practice! What nerve, to send a threatening letter like that with no legal footing to stand on! If I were you, and the guy had deep enough pockets to make it worthwhile for my lawyer, I would counter-sue for harassment! Make him have to pay his lawyer extra, or at least squirm a little!

You cannot be sued for telling the truth, no matter how much it hurts. Charges of Libel can only be made if what you wrote was false AND it damaged his reputation! Sounds like neither one would stick.

Not to worry, I had "good" lawyers lined up to defend me pro bono. Based upon the case "A Civil Action" (book/movie starring John Travolta as the Woburn families lawyer), our state began enforcing the treble damages provision of the law (hadn't been used in over one-hundred years) which awards 3 times the damage of a frivolous law suit to discourage same.

My guy (Villanova) used this strategy to advantage. They backed off straight away from this phony suit. The case involved W.R. Grace Co., Beatice Foods, the old tannery, and the next of kin of children who died of leukemea from drinking the well water. (Geez, who was the engineer on that one, watch movie to find out) Seems some TCE ended up in the well. Chromium (hex) anyone?

Hey, the guy had to hire the lawyer, he was facing fines and possible jail time. But, in the end you cannot be sued for telling the truth. The case is very interesting dove-tailing in nicely with this thread. Hey, I'm a respected "engineer" and your denying me a chance to make a living, etc.

Sorry, I don't know where John Edwards was at the time.

See above on Texas law..

I have only stamped a few documents in my career, most of them references for others.

But I think a PE is great marketing when looking for a job, even if you never use it. HR types see that PE and immediatly conclude (right or wrong) that you are more qualified than someone else who does not have it, and your resume goes to the top of the pile..

How else would a business major in the HR depart know who is and is not qualified? It is either years of experience, or a PE...

You speak of a waiver for students. Would the waiver work if you were to sign up for an online engineering class. It never hurts to pick up a class now and again.

I too would like to obtain my PE and my situation is similar. With over 35 years working as an engineer I do not have the ability to document my experiences with testimony from engineers I've worked with as they either did not have a PE or they are no longer walking the planet.

Somebody mentioned "problem for immigrants with foreign degrees" in obtaining FE & PE. But I have seen them at Universities, high level government agencies and of course in managerial position in highly technically oriented manufacturing facilities.

I do not include here Ph D from India who are in so many places in the USA, I think there are international agreements (bilateral?) to respect foreign schools and universities' degrees here, in USA, probably approved on Federal level not only the State ones.

I am curious about your feelings and possible remarks about my observations.

This is true, but if they are not offering consulting services to the public, and if in a govenment position they don't have responsible charge of a project, then they don't need a PE license. The bottom line is that most engineers don't need a PE to do their jobs. I know I don't, but I did at one time so I have kept it up.

If you are working in private industry, or if you are working under a PE in responsible charge, you don't need a PE.

There may well be standing exemptions, but it is a matter of individual state law, and in general a degree from an ABET accredited school is required. I had an employee once who was educated in Scotland, had 30 years of engineering experience, but did not qualify for a Texas PE based on his schooling.

Many immigrants also get around the problem by taking a masters or PHd in a US accredited university and then a PE is no problem for them.

"Many immigrants also get around the problem by taking a masters or PHd in a US accredited university and then a PE is no problem for them."

Many states (including Missouri) have passed laws to keep people (not just immigrants) who do not have a thorough grounding in the basics of engineering (includes all ABET BS-level engineering degrees) from becoming registered by requiring that they complete the BS degree in an ABET-accredited program.

A few years back, a friend of mine who had earned her BS in Chemistry (not Chem. Eng.) became disenchanted with the low pay and low esteem (not "self-esteem", which she had plenty of!) that went along with her BS-level chemistry job (sewer-water testing as I recall) so she decided to quit and earn her MS in Environmental Engineering (taught by the Civil Engineering department at her new school). Well, with the MS degree she got a good job with the State civil service in Pollution Control and recognition as an Engineer. She tested and passed the EIT and eventually the PE. This was in Arkansas which did not require any degree for EIT/PE at the time. Fast forward a few years and she looked for jobs in Missouri to be closer to her friends in St. Louis, however, MO would not recognize her Arkansas PE because of the no ABET-BS, and most jobs in her field required a Missouri EIT or PE. She did get a job across the river in Illinois which was commutable from St. Louis. I think she eventually got registered in IL for her job, but not in MO, I think.

Many universities now offer streamlined BS/MS programs for engineers with non-ABET BS degrees in relevant fields, making up only the coursework for the Engineering BS which was not duplicated by either the prior BS or the current MS work, which usually included basics like Surveying, Drafting, Statics, Dynamics, Strength of Materials, Computers, additional Math and/or Physics, etc., depending on the field.

Don't ever try for reciprocity to Kansas if you are registered in Missouri! The Hatfield's don't like the McCoys.

Yeah, and KU put Astroturf in their stadium so the cheerleaders don't graze!

Be nice, a cousin might be from the other side!

Does anybody actually list a current ranking of comparative States' PE levels, acceptabilities, and/or reciprocities?

Is there a website with such information?

Try "National Council of Examiners Engineering and Surveying" with links to individual states.

http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensure_exchange/

The rankings can be intrepreted by how easy the requirements are as explicitly shown. Those states that have no opinions and loose erquirements regarding the education and experience portions are going to be dimmly viewed when the question of reciprocity comes up by the "civilized" states.

Generally NY or CA are the toughest as I have stated at least twice before. We were always told, if you are not to ready for MA, take ME or NH first then try for MA reciprocity later. Of course, that was before everyone moved out of MA to NH and ME.

Civil PE Construction module does not require an engineering degree.

There is a good book

http://www.amazon.com/Civil-Professional-Engineer-Construction-Module/dp/097286573X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224271893&sr=8-1

Strategically, we should all be expecting things to become generally (even more over-) regulated in the current engineering employment environment (among almost every other environment...). Therefore, it is reasonable to expect to have more and more authoritative credentials (ie. registrations, etc.) in order to continue to compete successfully in job selections. For better or for worse, if you were a (human resource department) person tasked with conducting a hiring process to fill an engineering vacancy, why would you not "round-file" all the resumes/applications that did not list a relevant registration...?

Now, personally, if I were a realistic engineering businessman in this ever more competitive consulting environment, I would advertise certain appropriate positions to be filled will qualified applicant who were specifically not registered, in order attract people who were exceptionally experienced in certain fields and then compensate the hiree(s) accordingly. But since I'm not, I can't...

In any case, registration is going to become more and more of a "must" (ie: during the recession of 1975, there reportedly were unregistered engineers with masters degrees who were employed to flip hamburgers, etc. ... I was a technician at that time, and I was able to keep working in the engineering field because I was willing to go where the engineering work was, and live on what the engineering work paid me. I starved, but I got some great engineering experience.)

So, I think you should really "target" getting registered as soon as is reasonably practical. The first step would be the EIT/FE, and in certain respects, it is harder than the PE exam because it covers a wider range of topics. In short, you have to be effective in a large number of little areas, instead of a selected few of broader areas of engineering. Note that I said "effective," and not "efficient," because that's one of the things both exams are subtley trying to test for is a kind of net-effectiveness, and not just gross, test-taking, efficiency. I found a three- to four- month review course essential, in that regard. I took one for the EIT and two for the PE, and passed both in one try, because I planned effectively to "sit" for them.

With an FE behind you, you should then give serious consideration to moving near an engineering school that offers enough relevant engineering night classes while you work, hopefully in your discipline of engineering during the day, or vice-versa. This may well garner you contacts with PE's who will subsequently vouch for your experience/competency on your own PE application. Then, focus on preparing for the PE exam, while committing to keep trying until you pass it. (To put things in perspective, the best engineer I ever worked for took five trys to pass it, and some of the worst, took only one. Personal experience may differ...)

In the mean time, you should be very carefull about your consultancy efforts in that you should avoid referring to your efforts as engineering plans, engineering studies, etc., and not even refer to yourself as a consultant, but simply produce (comparative studies) instead. There has been a move to make the title "Consultant" into a protected title, just like "Engineer" and "Doctor."

And lastly, I recently interviewed with an engineer whose over-riding concern was that he did not want to hire someone older that he was. So, he did not hire me. The important point here for you is that time is not on your side, so use it effectively...

In any case, the right amounts of timely, selective, persistant, effectiveness can pay-off well, in time... Good luck with your choices.

Everyone-

Thank you all very much for your insights and candor. Some fresh perspective is always valuable. It was also great to hear that my situation is not uncommon. For the record, the state of interest is Nevada and I have only reviewed the application forms that they have available on-line. I believe my next step will be to call the office and speak with them directly about my options. I have hesitated to make the call so far out of fear of "tipping my hand". From what I have gleaned from Nevada's website so far, they will license non-degreed engineers, but that is why they're asking for four PE references on the FE (EIT) exam application. The suggestion to join a local association and have some local PEs review some of my past work is great.

I realize that to many in the profession that without a degree I am not an engineer, regardless of my body of work. I respect that opinion. I also realize that embarking upon a consulting business carries a huge liability regardless of my experience and education. That is why I am investigating my options for PE licencing. I understand that without it, I would be a fool to provide professional services on the scale I am considering. If the bottom line is that I am not qualified to sit for the exam, I will pursue other career options. I just want the opportunity to have my experience fairly evaluated.

Thank you all again for your posts.

BD

Another confusing thing is that you can do engineering work and call yourself an engineer, even without a degree. Your title can even say "engineer". But this is only if you are doing work within a company, for that company.

If you are doing engineering for another company, like a contractor would, you are generally not allowed even to have the title of an engineer without having a PE. It is like this in WV at least.