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Anonymous Poster

Buy American?

01/15/2008 12:14 PM

I was born in the early 1940's and remember during the war years and thereafter that the term "Made in Japan" meant the product was generally cheaply and poorly made and of low quality. At the time, people in the US would not consider buying such junk. The products were of such poor quality that frequently the Japanese manufacturers would illegally put "Made in USA" stickers on them or no one would even consider buying them. After process control was adopted by the Japanese manufacturers things began to improve significantly and they are now a quality leader.

With the greed of the American manufacturing sector pushing to optimize their profit pictures they are increasingly moving to off-shore manufacturing. This allows them to improve their profits while in many cases they provide a poorer quality product into the US marketplace. It has come full circle and so now if one wants to buy an American made product, it is nearly impossible to do so. Check in your current catalogs and see how many consumer goods are made in China versus those made elsewhere.
Now "Made in Japan" generally means a higher quality product than that provided by many American manufacturers because they are importing products (without tariff regulations) strictly on the basis of their profits, not on a viable product quality basis.

The problem to the American consumer is compounded since there is a general failure of our government to regulate the importation of materials and goods and to adequately protect the consumer against junk products. [The American manufacturers also provide little warantee protection to the consumer.]

I believe the problem can only be dispensed with when the American consumer becomes an educated sophisticated consumer and "requires" the US-based manufacturers to meet realistic quality demands. Personally, I refuse to purchase anything "made in China" and I will continue to do so until their products achieve safety and quality goals. Given the lack of sophistication of many consumers, I may be wearing thread-bare clothes, walking in run-down shoes and wearing a old watch for a long time to come.


Comments, please!

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Anonymous Poster
#1

Re: Buy American?

01/15/2008 1:00 PM

I also am from the early 40s and have had exactly the same experience. I share your feelings about buying ONLY American made products.

Our government , through environmental regulation and taxation, has systematically forced our major manufacturers to go offshore to produce their goods. They go to countries with minimal, if any, environmental regulations and the labor is cheap sometimes using child and prisoner labor. We have essentially been taken out of the competition by the "Greenies" and the lack of global fair play.

All countries importing products to the USA should be required to PROVE that they comply with all of the SAME RULES that we must comply with.

I personally predict that our country will be the equivalent of a third world economy within 20 years. With the majority of our citizens having a sub subsistence income.

Americans were once very innovative and accomplished many great things, not to mention improving the conditions in many European and Asian countries over the years. Now it is time for the US government to make things better here for Americans.

We need to have quality manufacturing jobs and not be reduced to being a service economy.

Good luck in your attemt to find American made products. I too look for them and am willing to pay a higher price. Unfortunately it is like finding a "Needle in a Haystack"

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Buy American?

01/15/2008 1:30 PM

The number of product solely manufactured and assembled in the U.S. is dwindling?

There probally more U.S. made products in a Toyota, than there is in a GM vehicle?

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Buy American?

01/15/2008 3:06 PM

" Now it is time for the US government to make things better here for Americans."

You expect the government to make things better for you?

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe it is the responsibility of Americans to make things better for Americans?

I think the main purpose of the government is to substantiate its own existence. At least that's what it appears to spend the bulk of its effort on.

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Anonymous Poster
#6
In reply to #3

Re: Buy American?

01/16/2008 12:15 PM

Has it ever occurred to you that there were other comments in the previous posts.

Why would you select only that one opinion to comment on? It sure didn't take much thought on your part.

Please comment on the reasons (the rest of the offering in post 1) which that statement was offered.

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#17
In reply to #6

Re: Buy American?

01/16/2008 3:08 PM

"Why would you select only that one opinion to comment on?"

Frankly, because I disagree with the statement made.

What if I only had an argument with only one comment? Why, in your opinion, should I state my opinion about every other comment that was made?

"It sure didn't take much thought on your part."

That is your opinion.

"Please comment on the reasons (the rest of the offering in post 1) which that statement was offered."

What are you really asking? Your question is not grammatically clear.

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Anonymous Poster
#19
In reply to #17

Re: Buy American?

01/17/2008 2:29 AM
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Anonymous Poster
#20
In reply to #17

Re: Buy American?

01/17/2008 2:46 AM

My grammar is perfect, with the possible exception of at The Space Coast, where you say you reside.

The reason that my questions are not clear to you is that there are no questions.

I did what the original poster asked for "Comments Please" -- I made comments -- I did not criticize his opinion.

Maybe you should lay off of criticism and make a meaningful comment, or BOW out gracefully. I sure you won't do that though as I have read many of your posts with the same type of critical comments and no purposeful input to the conversation from you.

Try to learn the difference between a QUESTION and a COMMENT --- that would be a good start on your grammatical training.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Buy American?

01/17/2008 6:57 AM

"My grammar is perfect..."

That's your opinion. Your sentence structure was incorrect and not clear. Part of writing is to be clear. Your statement was not. You also repeated it word for word to another poster, which further obfuscates the intended meaning. Forgive me for not recognizing the difference, but the simple absence of a question mark does not guarantee that a sentence is a comment. As you know, there is a wide spectrum of communication abilities here and it is sometimes hard to tell if a statement's intent was literal.

Define comment. Is a comment simply an accolade to the post? Why not a critical question? I like to challenge people to think. If you are not up to it, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

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Anonymous Poster
#22
In reply to #21

Re: Buy American?

01/17/2008 1:09 PM

1. Your arrogance is over whelming and you are obviously a "Legend in You Own Mind"

2. You must be an expert in everything including who is right and who is wrong.

3. Why don't you give some intelligent comment as the original poster requested instead of wasting everyones time with your petty criticism?

4. The repetition was intentional (I'm sure you could have figured that out) -- as many on this forum seem more intent on criticizing others than offering substantial comment.

Have a Great Day GURU

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#24
In reply to #22

Re: Buy American?

01/17/2008 1:26 PM

Really? I don't insult you with every post I make. Not that I really mind that you cast barbs at me, I can take it.

However, it seems that you are fixated with petty criticism and insults yourself. When challenged you simply reply with an insult and criticism. To put it in your own words, you offer no substantial comments.

That is really a pity, because I was thinking that you might be a worthy debater. Instead, not one of your replies contain substance, just condescending remarks.

As for wasting time, I don't think anyone is wasting their time on my accord, except you, perhaps, but that is your prerogative.

If you want to debate issues, fine, let's have at it. I enjoy a passionate debate because it is a chance to explore issues and viewpoints. Please sign up and join CR4 and we can start over. On the other hand, if all you can do is criticize and condemn, then please don't waste our time.

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Anonymous Poster
#27
In reply to #24

Re: Buy American?

01/21/2008 12:06 AM

I didn't want to debate --- never do, why is so important to be more right than someone else. This is not a technical issue where right or wrong is very important, it is just an interesting topic to see how others feel about it. You added nothing to a reasonable conversation regarding the topic you only criticized one sentence I wrote.

My original post was a reply to the original poster and was a light hearted and related series of good comments which were rudely replied to by yourself and others, I did not intend to elicit the type of commentary I recieved in return, nor did I anticipate the need to debate it.

The original poster did not ask for debate he/she asked for input to his/her offering. Read your own post carefully and you determine whether you offered a significant comment or opinon about his/her comments/experiences.

What have your experiences been like related to his/her comments?(by the way this is a question not a comment).

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#32
In reply to #27

Re: Buy American?

01/21/2008 6:56 AM

"I didn't want to debate --- never do" However, you have been debating ad hominem.

The point about a debate is not to determine who is right or wrong, but to exchange views and learn new things. There is nothing wrong with debating issues and they can be a lot of fun if it isn't presented or taken personally.

Your original post (was that post #2?) is fine. I just disagreed with your one point I challenged. I could go point by point and say I like this and that and then in the middle say no, that is wrong. However, that dilutes the argument.

I was not trying to add a comment about post number one. I was specifically pin pointing your response. This type of activity is done all the time in these forums and every other forum I have seen.

My experiences with post number one's comments matches what has been said. I particularly agree with his last paragraph! This is where I differed with your point in that I feel the the most effective tool to combat poor quality is with an educated consumer, not waiting for the government to swoop down and save us.

"(by the way this is a question not a comment)." ;-)

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Anonymous Poster
#43
In reply to #24

FOR THE SECOND TIME

07/06/2008 7:52 PM

I didn't want to debate --- never do, why is so important to be more right than someone else. This is not a technical issue where right or wrong is very important, it is just an interesting topic to see how others feel about it. You added nothing to a reasonable conversation regarding the topic you only criticized one sentence I wrote.

My original post was a reply to the original poster and was a light hearted and related series of good comments which were rudely replied to by yourself and others, I did not intend to elicit the type of commentary I recieved in return, nor did I anticipate the need to debate it.

The original poster did not ask for debate he/she asked for input to his/her offering. Read your own post carefully and you determine whether you offered a significant comment or opinon about his/her comments/experiences.

What have your experiences been like related to his/her comments?(by the way this is a question not a comment

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#26
In reply to #22

Re: Buy American?

01/17/2008 1:33 PM

You have to realize that when we are talking to guests, its on a forum. And everybody is welcome. But as a guest you should realize or soon realize that some of the responses can have an edge to it. Be it bluntness or sarcasms.

And all topics on these posts can trail off-topic for whatever reasons. I find this forum to have valuable information, and at times I find it quite petty also. But the value is still there.

And when guest reply they can be experts in their field, experts in their mind, participants or trouble makers who knows, (this can also be applied to the ones who joined but that can be easily identified) as a guest it can't.

And I for one weigh it at such.

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Anonymous Poster
#28
In reply to #26

Re: Buy American?

01/21/2008 12:24 AM

"And everybody is welcome:.

You write as though this is your forum --- please make ALL of the rules clear. I have seen many guests have much to offer, as I do. You folks think membership is really great.

You and some of your members are extremely rude or offer very little, in general. I am speaking specifically of Del the Cat, STLEng, Kris and on and on this is their personal "Build My Ego Forum" I really don't want to sign in again, as every person I have communicated with on this web site has an egomaniacal NEED to be THE RIGHT ONE with all the answers.

Not everything needs to be debated -- maybe sometimes, you can state how you think, and the others can surgically criticize every word. Be the first poster .

See ya --- I do have things I can offer to even superior persons like yourself. I'm sure I'm not breaking your heart. But I will not be back. I'm sure you will be replying to this but I won't be reading it. I hope the rest of your life is better than you exhibit here.

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Anonymous Poster
#36
In reply to #28

Re: Buy American?

07/06/2008 12:31 AM
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Anonymous Poster
#51
In reply to #28

Re: Buy American?

10/12/2008 12:02 AM

OH YEAH You're Just a piece of crap Just Like STLENG and Kris the rediculous CAT

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Anonymous Poster
#42
In reply to #26

Re: Buy American?

07/06/2008 1:37 AM

Guests are not STUPID -- I was a contributing member and recieved notihng but personal criticism from KRIS, STLeng, and the CAT guy --- just got sick of really self important folks like these.

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Anonymous Poster
#37
In reply to #22

Re: Buy American?

07/06/2008 12:32 AM
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Anonymous Poster
#38
In reply to #20

Re: Buy American?

07/06/2008 12:33 AM
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Anonymous Poster
#47
In reply to #17

Re: Buy American?

10/11/2008 11:48 PM

Youn are full of it.

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Anonymous Poster
#48
In reply to #47

Re: Buy American?

10/11/2008 11:51 PM

Yeah and he is really stuoid too

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#14
In reply to #3

Re: Buy American?

01/16/2008 2:37 PM

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe it is the responsibility of Americans to make things better for Americans?

I agree

I think the main purpose of the government is to substantiate its own existence.

No thats politicians roll for their own existence.

Its the governments roll to have the means to defend this country's interest.

Be it natural or an outside influence (another country)

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#18
In reply to #14

Re: Buy American?

01/16/2008 3:18 PM

"Its the governments roll to have the means to defend this country's interest."

In a pure sense, yes, that is the roll of government, but the majority of its efforts do not seemed to be aligned with that roll. So, I am being a bit factious. ;-)

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Anonymous Poster
#23
In reply to #18

Re: Buy American?

01/17/2008 1:11 PM

You Mean The "Government's Role" not roll don't you?

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#25
In reply to #23

Re: Buy American?

01/17/2008 1:27 PM

Opps! You are correct.

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Anonymous Poster
#44
In reply to #3

Re: Buy American?

07/06/2008 8:01 PM

Yuu are Damn right I expect the government to step up and help create jobs and fair trade --- are you stupid --- The U.S gov't is into your shorts so deep it hurts most folks -- maybe you just like getting screwed while we develop other countries we forget our own.

GET real or at least open your eyes AMERICANS are getting screwed world wide --- why wouldn't a sane person expect someting in return for the contribution of taxes and -- OH Yeah -- working and not on the dole.

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: Buy American?

01/15/2008 3:28 PM

We need to have quality manufacturing jobs and not be reduced to being a service economy.

Define quality. this being labor and how it is done. such as union shops or non-union.

and what is your opinion (differences) of the two

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Anonymous Poster
#7
In reply to #4

Re: Buy American?

01/16/2008 12:33 PM

It doesn't matter whether it is a Union or non-Union job. If I need to explain what a quality job is then maybe that shows why Americans need government help, since you (they)seem to not know what a quality job is. Gee maybe the gov't doesn't know either.

Why would you select only that one opinion to comment on? It sure didn't take much thought on your part.

Please comment on the reasons (the rest of the offering in post 1) which that statement was offered.

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Buy American?

01/16/2008 12:51 PM

If I need to explain what a quality job is then maybe that shows why Americans need government help,

Because it sounds like quality is nothing but a word to you that needs government to show you the way. Its more than that, explain farther below.

Why would you select only that one opinion to comment on? It sure didn't take much thought on your part.

As far as my selection, do not think for one minute that I am being selective. there is more than one issue because jobs are going over seas. Economics, Political, Labor, Environmental, ect....

Look at it as a list, I am just starting it at one point then I move on, I do it that way because to better organize without being all over the board.

Hopefully you can understand that.

Now as far as quality, quality is not not only holding tight tolerance using quality material, but also being able to deliver a safe functional part at a profit. There will be compromises to this, and the key is selecting the best compromise and still be in business.

Gee maybe the gov't doesn't know either.

They don't.

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Anonymous Poster
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Buy American?

01/16/2008 1:02 PM

Much Better --- please continue oh and while you are at it please be a little more personally insulting -- after all you must think that is the productive way to communicate --- Have a Great Day Sir

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Buy American?

01/16/2008 1:12 PM

don't mistake my bluntness for a personal attack.

after all you must think that is the productive way to communicate

Not really, as an enigeer and a consultant, I'll get called in to fix a problem. I'll lay it on the line, And people do not like to hear what has to be said. But they keep calling me back.

And if you are offended, sorry about my bluntness, that can be one of my flaws.

As far as union and non-union I see the same quality coming from both.

What I do see is the added cost to the union shop as opposed to the non-union.

Getting off the topic. Union had and has its place, I just think that it places today is self preservation and not to it actual member. And that is my opinion about the union.

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Anonymous Poster
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Buy American?

01/16/2008 1:55 PM

Thank You, I agree with your points. To answer your question "What Is A Quality Job"

I see a quality job as one that fits the needs of the employer as well as the needs of the employee. From the employee perspective: the job should be one where an employee is able to provide a benefit to the employer and self satisfaction to the employee. One where it is possible for the employee to grow with a successful company. One that offers the possibility faithful and responsible work for a long term.

There are many more facets of a quality job, these being only a few. Bottom line it is a reasonable agreement between two entities incorporating fairness, responsibility sharing, dedication to making a good product for the customer/consumer, the ability of the employee to live comfortably in a decent environment, and the ability to achieve a reasonable retirement.

There needs to be adequate income to live in the area where he/she is employed -- there are different costs in different States, Cities, etc. Adequate benefits that cover medical, dental, vacations, family emergencies (time off without penalty).

These same things apply to self employed folks --- but they must earn enough to provide these quality job attributes for themselves. The health insurance is the tough one to swallow, and is the reason I stay employed with a corporation. Still expensive but not like self insured.

The medical insurance companies seem to be causing much of the problem with continuing higher rates that the employers are not able OR not willing to share with the employee.

This year my health insurance went up just under $100 per mo. yet at the same time we got a raise in wages to equal exactly $78 per mo. this seems to be a trend for the past five years. I California (where I live) the cost of living is increasing at a tremendous rate, yet wages and benefits fall far behind.

Please feel free to suggest anything else that might be part of quality employment.

Thank You for your input,

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Buy American?

01/16/2008 2:14 PM

Guest,

Your looking it at the employment aspect as you mentioned its only a part.

I did not want to anylaze it to that degree, but can.

My over all views were the labor just being a small part of many parts attributed.

As far as quality and my definition of quality, and I am saying this as a past owner of a fabrication business is what the market can bear. meeting the needs of demand, material, functionality of the part, competitiveness, delivery in a timely manner, operational and safety of the part as well as maintenance, not in that order. and each of these definitions, have definitions in its self.

This is not an easy topic.

And I'll ask questions of your opinions and about things and at times already knowing the answer or having an opinion on a topic. to get a handle of your knowledge guest.

why don't you join CR4?

phoenix911

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Anonymous Poster
#15
In reply to #13

Re: Buy American?

01/16/2008 2:41 PM

Your points are good ones, and Yes, it is a difficult and comprehensive topic.

Thank you for the invitation I am seriously considering that. I think I will continue as a guest for a while to see the different fora and try to determine the seriousness and quality (no pun intended lol) of the responses in each.

Thanks for the dialog.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Buy American?

01/16/2008 2:43 PM

guest,

fair enough, enjoy

phoenix911

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Anonymous Poster
#46
In reply to #12

Re: Buy American?

10/11/2008 11:47 PM

EXCELLENT POINTS

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Anonymous Poster
#34
In reply to #11

Re: Buy American?

07/06/2008 12:29 AM
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Anonymous Poster
#35
In reply to #7

Re: Buy American?

07/06/2008 12:30 AM
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Anonymous Poster
#31
In reply to #1

Re: Buy American?

01/21/2008 1:58 AM

Here is an interesting thread on CR4 related to this topic

How to make Chinese auto parts products trusted

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Anonymous Poster
#39
In reply to #1

Re: Buy American?

07/06/2008 12:35 AM

What is wrong with this npoint of view?

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#5

Re: Buy American?

01/15/2008 5:29 PM

I agree that all the imports should be up to US standards of safety. As far as quality that I believe is up to the consumer. You pay a difference for quality. To make a quality product takes some experience. Gained through time in any craft. As the Japanese have learned so will the Chinese. As the quality of their products increase so will the price and their economy. Manufacturers will seek other under developed nations to exploit low incomes. Then we will have some other country's cheap products to complain about.

It's not just government regulations that have force US manufactures out of the country. The union work force needs to take some blame for its ever increasing demand for benefits and the American consumer in their acceptance of throw away products.

Until the American consumer changes their standards on the products they purchase it will always be difficult to find products with Made in America on them.

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Anonymous Poster
#8
In reply to #5

Re: Buy American?

01/16/2008 12:45 PM

ozzb

You have made very good points. Maybe some of the other posters interested in this thread will make some more significant ones.

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Anonymous Poster
#29

Re: Buy American?

01/21/2008 12:57 AM

To guest from guest poster # 1 I hope you can find something positive and related to your experiences. I have had nothing but folks trying to --- well you read the garbage.

--- I'm terribly sorry I offered my input. I don't believe I offered anything that needed to be debated but I am sure you will find some interesting comment is a couple of the posts.

I will not be coming back to this forum -- there are too many available, and many where the discussion is serious and is devoid of the BLUNTNESS and severity of the discussion demonstrated here. for example: www.eng-tips.com http://www.practicalmachinist.com and more and more and more.

Thank You for you Post and I agree with all of your statements and have experienced the same as you in regards to this subject.

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Anonymous Poster
#30
In reply to #29

Re: Buy American?

01/21/2008 1:01 AM

Guest to guest

Very good for you guest I have been following this and these folks are really beyond communication --- they, as you said have a sick need to be right at all costs.

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Anonymous Poster
#41
In reply to #30

Re: Buy American?

07/06/2008 1:14 AM

Especially Kris, STLENG, and DEL the ?Cat? what's with th e CAT thing? 90 % meaningless posts and criticism of those who offer (right or wrong) still offered. These three are really FULL of themselves -- and other stuff too.

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Anonymous Poster
#50
In reply to #41

Re: Buy American?

10/11/2008 11:59 PM

These guys are the most self important, egotistical, and RUDE people I have ever had the misfortune to have communication with --- hey you guys you are really then real thing -- that is why AMERICA is on it's way out --- SHEER STUPIDITY. U gotta degree and that makes you GOD LMAO

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#33
In reply to #29

Re: Buy American?

01/21/2008 7:07 AM

I will miss your return. As I said before, even though I disagree with your one and only point and I felt your personal attacks were wrong, I think you are an intelligent man with a lot of knowledge and experience.

If you had attacked peoples' views and not the person you would have been fine. I am sure you are a great guy, you just took things personally and I don't think that anyone here had anything personal against you, they just didn't appreciate being labeled as this or that.

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Anonymous Poster
#40
In reply to #33

Re: Buy American?

07/06/2008 12:45 AM

Thank You Anon Hero --- I think you are correct and thanks for the insight of my own responses -- I have learned somthing from you and I will consider it a I respond to others, --- maybe others could benefit from your advise also --- ie STLEng, Del the Cat and other self important folks. 90% of Dels posts are inane the rest are great.

Why do I need to walk on eggshells when these folks are ALWAYS personnally INSULTING?

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Anonymous Poster
#45

Re: Buy American?

10/11/2008 11:18 PM

Still watching and the folks I mentioned are still the same as a year ago

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Anonymous Poster
#49
In reply to #45

Re: Buy American?

10/11/2008 11:54 PM

What about the obvious takeover of AMERICA by the Chinese helped by the greed of American corporations. China wins without firing a shot they just bought us and where do we go now? Just didn't see it coming did ya.

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Anonymous Hero (8); Anonymous Poster (34); ozzb (1); phoenix911 (8)

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