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The Engineer
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Ethanol Production in US Growing Quickly

06/04/2006 1:50 PM

The amount of Ethanol used this year, estimated at 2.15 billion bushels, would amount to 20% of the US's entire crop. The enthusiasm for ethanol makes farmer Lynn Phillips want to grow more corn. Phillips helped raise the money for the farmer-owned Tall Corn plant, which opened in 2002 as a way to make more money by processing every kernel of locally grown corn. "We saw train cars after train cars of raw material being shipped away and value being added somewhere else," said Phillips. Now, the corn "is still going out on train cars -- it's just going out in the form of ethanol and distillers' grain." Corn can cost more to grow because it needs heavy applications of fertilizer. Right now, Phillips plants corn on about half his 2,000 acres and soybeans on the rest.

The article goes on to say:

"Meanwhile, lawmakers envision vastly more ethanol in the nation's automobiles. Sens. Tom Harkin, D-Iowa, and Richard Lugar, R-Ind., are pushing to require 60 billion gallons of ethanol and soy-based biodiesel by 2030."

Now the first thing to notice is the two representitives are from Indiana and Iowa, where the price of corn going through the roof would benefit the most. Second, let's consider how much corn it would take to produce 60 billion gallons of ethanol. An acre of corn produces about 500 gallons of Ethanol. So 60 billion gallons would require 120 million acres of land producing corn. There are 427 million arable acres in the United States.

In my opinion, this is pork barrel politics disguised as environmentalism.

Here is the USDA's assessment for Ethanol. Keep in mind that the United States Department of Agriculture has a ton to gain by Ethanol use as it will drive up the price of grains. Take a look at the net BTU totals. They vary from -33,000 BTU/gal to +25,000 BTU/gal. In other words, in half the studies, Ethanol uses more energy than it produces.

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Power-User

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#1

Ethanol

06/05/2006 8:55 AM

If ethanol net energy is as bad as -33,000 btus/gal, how is Brazil making a go of it?

I have also heard that what is left over from the process can be used in animal feeds.

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#3
In reply to #1

Re:Ethanol

06/05/2006 9:46 AM

I'm not an expert, but my understanding of the answer to this question is:

1. Brazil produces ethanol from sugar cane, which has about 10X more ethanol yield than corn.

2. Brazil uses a lot of manual labor to plant, harvest, and process the cane, and doesn't use fertilizer.

3. Sugar cane seems to be able to be completely harvested (plant, stalks, etc..) without depleting the soil. Thus the leftovers (called bagasse) can be burned to power the ethanol plant. The same is not true for corn, much of the plant must be left in the field to decay in order to keep the yields high.

Also note - there's some dispute about the numbers. For example, the corn mash that remains after ethanol processing is usable as high protein animal feed. Some studies give credit for this by-product, others don't.

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#6
In reply to #1

Re:Ethanol

06/05/2006 10:16 AM

Also note that the USDA Study cited in the story is from 1995. Significant advances have been made in ethanol production since then, and most, but not all, recent studies show a positive net energy balance.

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The Engineer
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#14
In reply to #6

Re:Ethanol

06/05/2006 4:17 PM

I completely missed that. I thought it was from more recently. I'll have to look and see if I can find something more recent and post it. Sorry about that.

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#12
In reply to #1

Re:Ethanol

06/05/2006 1:46 PM

Since the waste mash could be given to cows as feed then the ideal would be to form an environment where the waste methane from the cows could be used to supplement power to the ethanol plant.

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#2

The goal is not to save energy

06/05/2006 9:32 AM

Granted, I haven't deeply engaged the topic of ethanol, but from what I have read, the goal is not to save energy, but to lessen dependence on foreign oil. Ethanol is not supposed to provide more BTUs or be a magic bullet. As a renewable resource, it is supposed to stretch the supplies of non-renewable oil. The fact that it takes more energy to produce and is a bit more costly may seem to be a negative, but that's not the real issue. As long as another renewable resource is being used to power the processing, which (again from my limited reading), seems to be the case in most of the the processing plants that I've seen profiled, then it is serving its purpose. Ethanol takes a product that is not traditionally an energy source (except as a food) and converts it. The fact that it is not totally efficient isn't a great problem if it's self-sustaining and renewable.

I won't speak to the Congressional bill or the plans to use 1/3 of the arable land in the US to produce it, as well, that is politics.

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#4
In reply to #2

Re:The goal is not to save energy

06/05/2006 9:51 AM

Lets face it, right now we subsidise farms to NOT grow corn. If there were a sudden demand for it the amount produced by this country could skyrocket and not effect the price much. When oil gets to $150 USD per barrel corn is going to look mighty good.

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The Engineer
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#5
In reply to #2

Re:The goal is not to save energy

06/05/2006 9:56 AM

The problem is in order to make enough ethanol to reduce emissions or foreign oil dependence we'd have to plant corn on every availible inch of land in the US. It's just not practical. This is money that could be going into real solutions like Solar Power or Fusion.

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#7
In reply to #5

Re:The goal is not to save energy

06/05/2006 10:53 AM

The answer to reducing oil imports is going to be a blend of technologies. There isn't a "magic bullet" (Oil is just too good at what it does). If ethanol can provide part of the solution, that's great. As long as it doesn't require more OIL to produce it than the ethanol it yields, in which case you haven't gained anything.

Solar power (in the strict sense, since ALL energy is solar energy, except for wave energy, which is "lunar") won't get us there by itself either.

As for fusion, it appears that it is, and always will be, the technology of the future.

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The Engineer
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#8
In reply to #7

Re:The goal is not to save energy

06/05/2006 11:07 AM

There seems to be a lot of "conventional" wisdom that Fusion is impossible. The problem is, I don't ever really hear many facts to back it up.

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#9
In reply to #8

Re:The goal is not to save energy

06/05/2006 12:08 PM

I have no doubt that it's possible, in the lab, eventually. Converting it to production scale, where it can be safely and reliably run at very high power levels in a business setting by non-Ph.D's is another issue entirely.

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The Engineer
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#10
In reply to #9

Re:The goal is not to save energy

06/05/2006 12:54 PM

You wrote "I have no doubt that it's possible, in the lab, eventually."

Actually, there are working Fusion reactors now, they just aren't practical yet. Just cut and paste this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_European_Torus )

The room for improvement though is huge and the energy wouldn't just solve our energy needs of today, but of tomorrow as well.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re:The goal is not to save energy

06/05/2006 1:37 PM

It's not the only one. The Princeton Tokamak started up a long time ago. However nobody has reached break-even (energy out > energy in) yet.

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The Engineer
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#13
In reply to #11

Re:The goal is not to save energy

06/05/2006 1:53 PM

That's true about break-even not being reached yet. There is a lot of potential energy there though. Our energy needs have increased every year of the last century. (Energy Consumption-http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/world. html) There is no reason that we should expect that pace to slacken, so we need a solution that can meet tomorrows energy needs, which will be substantially higher than todays. Fission and Fusion are the only technologies that can realistically meet these demands and in the long run.

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#16
In reply to #7

Re:The goal is not to save energy

06/05/2006 11:07 PM

Steve wrote (#5394): "Solar power (in the strict sense, since ALL energy is solar energy, except for wave energy, which is "lunar") won't get us there by itself either." Another, often overlooked non-solar energy source is geo-energy (tapping Earth's internal heat). Like wave energy, it's also essentially gravitational. By the way, fission and fusion are also strictly non-solar!

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#17
In reply to #16

Re:The goal is not to save energy

06/06/2006 8:22 AM

True. My bad. OK - Almost all energy is solar.

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Participant

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#15

reducing dependence on foreign oil +

06/05/2006 9:25 PM

Reducing our dependence on foreign oil is enough to get my vote. However, there are more pro's than that. Ethanol is a renewable energy source, and if it took more energy to make than it produced I highly doubt three more plants would have opened in Iowa last month. I don't know about you but I would much rather pay $2.33 for I-85 than $2.71 for regular unleaded. Of course Iowa and Indiana are going to push for something they are going to push for something they are going to profit the most from, any state would. I say farmers have been given the shaft for too long as it is. Besides last time I checked those two states were Americans and I would much rather see them getting the money than "Big Oil" and the Middle East.

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#18
In reply to #15

Re:reducing dependence on foreign oil +

06/06/2006 7:11 PM

I like that. In Australia the Car companies are still helping big oil stem the renewable tide. Ethanol from Sarina Power Alcohol plant is stated as being worth 45 cents per litre using molasses from the sugar industry. We currently pay $1.30 per litre for unleaded fuel and $1.40 plus for diesel in the same region. The short cut of using cane juice directly is nor even being used. Through lack of alternatives our large sugar industry almost went broke ( our farmers are not subsidised). Even is economics weren't so strongly in favour of renewable fuels, why buy your fuel from the emeny?

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