Practical build of a Mintos Wheel (production)

Hi Tom

How do Wally set the direction of rotation?

And what if the water is too hot and boils too early.

I had a Wally ostrich when I was young. The best I could come up with was a reciprocating pump.

Easy to set the direction of rotation...heavy side falls, light side goes up.

As to the too much heat issue, well, as long as the heat is applied after the container hits bdc (bottom dead center) the only problem will be getting it to cool off enough at the top to allow for re-condensation (opposed to my usual condescension).

There's not a lot of spec's or hard science that I've found, and it may be a tad on the inefficient side, but the cost to build and install should be orders of magnitude lower than pv or wind at this time.

Best estimate of power that I've been able to come up with is an 8 cylinder system, utilizing 20 lb propane tanks, a wooden wheel structure build on an old truck axle. It was purported to maintain 1 rpm and deliver a shaft hp rating of about 5.5 hp utilizing propane as the working fluid. That's a constant supply of about 4 kw. It works out to about 35,000 kw/h per year. Average house uses 10,000 kw/h per year (don't jump too hard on the figures yet, just doing a lot of rounding and best-case scenarios right now). I also haven't taken into consideration anything like peak load, etc, etc so there are a lot of minutia that aren't considered, but a lot of them would be universal for any systems.

After the design, testing and inevitable screw-ups, lets say you could install it for $1500.00 (do it yourself from tested plans, labor is something I don't know yet). It generates 35k kw/h per year. Just selling that back to the grid at $0.02 per kw/h generates $700.00 per year. Payback... a touch over 2 years. Add $500.00 for maintenance...3 years.

4 KW Wind Turbine. With pad, tower, support wires...call it $6000.00 plus labor. Well, you don't always have wind. You can always have heat differential. How often a wind turbine is producing power has many many variables, but let's call it 25% of the time - and I think I'm being generous, but I'm only going by anecdotal info and my own limited observations. If anyone has a better number, let me know. Anyway, with a 4 kw wind turbine producing an average of 1 kw/h constantly would generate approximately 9000 kw/h per year. At $.02 sell back, that's $180.00 Payback time? LOL, with maintenance, never. But no non-renewable fuel sources used. I did find an interesting new deployment option at http://www.magenn.com/ (sorry, link no longer available) which would reduce the installation costs and cause huge amounts of hate from your neighbors (Which, for me, would be a definite plus).

PV is about $7-10 a Watt, installed. Not economically viable yet. Good news is that the warranties life spans of these products are going up. Seems that the newer ones are coming with a 25 year limited warrentee so as the prices come down they will become more and more viable. Sun is also limited to about 8 hours a day of harvestable shine, not including cloud cover.

I hope that clears up some of the reasons for attempting this, now we just have to get one to work. Think Positive Peops. Heat differential is everywhere and I'll even compost for a heat source so think around the box.

The Minoto Wheel has been around since 1976. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minto_wheel&gt>

To date, after more than thirty years, there is not one installation anywhere in the world generating significant amounts of power. Please provide a citation of one and I'll eat a serving of "Ubmle Pie"

Never said it was being used. And the one picture of a 20' wheel (what could be considered production sized) is old and there are no spec's with it. I don't know when the dunking bird toy was developed, but it's the principle it's based off of.

You don't need to be 'umble, gov'nor. I'm not sure you could pull it off without many thousands of dollars in acting lessons anyway . What I was proposing is actually attempting one. I was hoping to generate some interest and hopefully some practical mechanical and thermodynamics advice.

Now, if you can point to the issue where the theory doesn't work, then I'll eat that 'umble pie you offered up. I'm not an engineer, but I am a thinker. I can't see a issue that would make it impossible. What is missing is any serious attempt or consideration. It's the lack of test or trial data that does more to intrigue me than the lack of a working installation.

If I suddenly go silent, you'll know there is a more nefarious issue involved (muahahaha - shhh, what...nooooo, aaaarrrrggghhhh)

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.

"Now, if you can point to the issue where the theory doesn't work, then I'll eat that 'umble pie you offered up. I'm not an engineer, but I am a thinker. I can't see a issue that would make it impossible. What is missing is any serious attempt or consideration. It's the lack of test or trial data that does more to intrigue me than the lack of a working installation."

OTOH I AM an engineer and have been watching the alternative schemes for generating usable power and electricity for a number of years. The available heat sources and temperatures vs. the available cooling heat rejection methods are limiting factors. The bigger Minto Wheels which can be made to provide large values of torque runs at a maddeningly slow speed.

"but I am a thinker." Good for you. Now apply the principles of classical philosophy and reason to the Minto Wheel and all the information available about it and draw your own conclusions.

Most if not all the bears in these (CR4) woods are too smart to invest in a foolish quest for a machine, once built is good for nothing but a curiosity.

You might find a warm reception at Yahoo Groups BeSTKGenSet Good luck with your Quest for the Grail of the Minto Wheel! Hang onto your coppers till then.

Thanks. I appreciate that your holiness deigns to chastise me for my presumptuous aspirations in your exalted sect. I might question the fact that you are an engineer as you are telling me that you reject it because someone else hasn't figured it out for you. Not the definition of any engineer I know. If Archimedes had followed the same thought process, the lever would never have been believed.

The lack of test or trial data has me perplexed as well, but, just the 'lay' person's perspective here, is that since the science seems sound (and I'm not making any claims that it is, I just haven't found any holes in the theory yet) or is there a flaw in the basic idea? Show me the flaw in the concept and I will provide my stolen trademark "D'oh" and move on.

I would suggest you go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MintoWheel/ and forget about joining (unless you wish to slog through a bunch of real crap until you hit upon the nuggets of insight...it's a much less organized and practically educated group) but take a look at the file section and they have done a pretty good job of collecting the various snippets that are available on the web. One other interesting tidbit in the group is the recent joining of one of Mr. Wallace Minto's relatives.

Having read through many of your posts, I do have a fair respect for your opinion and thought process as well as your demonstrated practical knowledge. We also have much the same style of outrage, condemnation and verbal diatribes. I can appreciate that as we both know that it takes some doing to get the post right lest we be picked apart for form and the message loses the battle in the minutia.

As to the comment that 'dem dar bears in dis woods be sure too smart' to invest in my self assigned quest for my piece of the grail, I think you are mistaken. You think in monetary terms as the bureaucrat you are portraying yourself to be. I believe that the intellectual dialog I requested, with the payout of quantifiable data as an ROI, they would quite willingly to 'invest'.

Now, that said and your dismissal of me obvious, I would request that, unless you have practical, AND I REPEAT...PRACTICAL, information to add to this discussion, that you refrain from adding any further comments to this blog. I don't care if you follow it. I don't care if you send me private messages telling me I'm an idiot (and just think, in a private message you can use any language you want, I'm no hot-house lily and would appreciate the less political approach).

Ok, gauntlet being thrown and accepted, it would be my choice of weapons. I'll throw that back at you but give you these limitation: fencing weapons (foil, epee or sabre, though I prefer epee), pole arms (including any form of bo or staff), katana (bokken optional) or the written word.

'Engarde'

oh, one other thing I might add. (and there are a number of variables here, the most notable that something that produces any power has not yet been implemented) but...a wonderful concatinated solar stirling proposition has reached the production phase. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYKOjnCwmG8&feature=related

now, how much would you say each one of these costs? They don't mention it in the little promotional video, but they do mention maximum output during sunny times. 25 kw. Hmmm. What would you say each one of those massive solar concatenator arrays costs? 1 million? 2 million? 5 million? Now, if I could build something that required no such massive array and could produce 25 kw (about 7 of the rudimentory minto's wheels along the same shaft) for, say $50,000.00, what would that make me? A backyard kook? Yeah, I like that title. I won't make the money they will, because they made it by taking it from the investors that lose when the plants never come online.

Lets see, sun, best case scenario would be $2,000,000.00 (INV) divided by the result of 12 (DH - Daylight hours) times 365 (D - Days in Year) times 25 (KVP - kilovolt per hour potential) times $.02 (WEP) - Wholesale Electricity Price. So the formula would be INV / (12*365*25*WEP) = years to ROI.

Do the math.

tomkaighin The Youtube video and projected installation of Solar Stirling engines to supply power to the south west is woefully out of date. A few demonstration units were built. The project was not considered worth the financial investment.

"Lets see, sun, best case scenario would be $2,000,000.00 (INV) divided by the result of 12 (DH - Daylight hours) times 365 (D - Days in Year) times 25 (KVP - kilovolt per hour potential) times $.02 (WEP) - Wholesale Electricity Price. So the formula would be INV / (12*365*25*WEP) = years to ROI. -- Do the math."

Doing the math:

$2,000,000.oo Div by 12 hr/day * 365 days/yr * 25 KV/hr * $0.02 /KWhr

$2,000,000.oo Div by $2,190 / AHr

Equals 913.24 / Ahr. which is meaningless.

Your grade in math is F- as a result of using improper or unrealistic values and units.

Congratulations on having excelled in other areas and are therefore awarded an A+ in Obfuscation, Blather, and BS

Not quite meaningless. Your math is fine. Your ability to understand the meaning behind the number shows the liberal arts training you received but try to hide. A 900+ YEAR ROI would make it economically idiotic. So, of course, you bought shares? I have a bunch of Carbon Offsets I can sell you too. Just make the cheque out to CASH. I sure as hell didn't buy into any of this crap...except that my government did, hence I payed for the folly.

Even if my numbers are off by a factor of 100, that's still a 9 year roi...not including maintenance, downtime or clouds and rain. You know of a place that doesn't ever have clouds or rain? Gobi? Can you say China. And yes, Nevada/Utah/Arizona...Nice desert area...relatively high winds...lots of highly abrasive sand blowing in it...does wonders for mirrored surfaces...hence maintenance that I didn't even try to figure into it.

So, best case scenario (like that's ever going to happen outside or your green wetdreams) 50 years to break even point. Lets see, first PV cell to be created? Lets call it mid 70's, SkyLab 40 years ago. First large scale implementation. Cost? oh, about 80 million 1973 dollars. Duration? 6 months. I don't really know what the operating capabilities were, but when turning on a lightbulb on the station outside of pre-existing parameters required 2 months notice to ensure power availability, I'm figuring, not that good.

I'll take your F+ in math. With your ability to make judgements, I figure that's an A+ in the real world. I just wouldn't take your bank account. Hell, you probably learned accounting from Anderson and human rights from China. If you want obfuscation, I would point to your hiding of your simian ancestry and how close you actually are to your ancestors. Blather? Nonsensical speech? Since this is not a spoken venue, I would mind you to pick a pertinent word, but in reading your poorly thought out arguments, I understand why you can't succinctly express yourself. Bullshit? Wow, last desperate attempt from the truly lacking. Either that, or something that is so intrinsic in your life that it is a pathetic attempt to imbue unto me that which, in your life is so close and has such horrific connotations. Might I suggest a shower? Presuming, of course, that you know about such things as running water.

I simply tried to elucidate some of the readers to other measures of feasibility and to show the waste of government implemented programs and solutions. I would almost suspect that you were in some way responsible...no...couldn't be...is this fiasco in some part do to your efforts? Wouldn't surprise me, you do tend to spew vitriol like a seasoned bureaucrat.

Now, I asked this question/forum. If you don't have anything positive to add...and they can be negatives, but you have to provide proof, I would request that you just un-subscribe from it. I didn't ask you to join. I don't care if you follow it. I'm going to build it. You can say what you like, but I will ask the staff for the ability to censure your posts. Ask your own question, say what you want. In mine, please try to keep it relevant.

I'd be happy if you could provide the boiling point of propane, naphtha, pure gasoline (no additives, not the crap you get out of the pump) or lacquer thinner. I'm also looking to gather information on the density of Mercury vs various other ferro-fluids. Remember that it has to maintain it's fluid state between 200 degrees F and say 0 degrees F.

The concept works....I just don't know that it can work in such a way that any decent amount of usable energy can be extracted. Very little practical research has been done. But you can talk to Orville and Wilbur Wright's parents...shit don't fly.

Sorry for the delay in this reply to your reply, but in rereading your dismissives with greater care, I found that you actually made my point for me.

"The Youtube video and projected installation of Solar Stirling engines to supply power to the south west is woefully out of date. A few demonstration units were built. The project was not considered worth the financial investment."

Yep, not economically viable. Best solar minds and butt-loads of cash still couldn't make it work. Now, Stan. I'm not asking you to invest any of your hard earned dollars in this. I'm gonna build it. I started this question to find people that have the hard skills that can help me through the pieces that I lack the knowledge to work out for myself (doesn't mean I can't figure them out and then learn them, but I always figured that I can hire expertise. So far, I haven't been disappointed).

Yet, I'm not worried about the marketability of this device, even if I get it generating power. Generating power has never been an issue, storing it has. I have ideas on that too. If I can produce a working model of this, all of those that participate will benefit. I believe you see it from a business-greed perspective. You want something for the time you spend doing things. I work from a different perspective.

I could retire tomorrow (and I'm 43). I'm a Cisco Certified Network technician (and gone through the bi-yearly recertification's for 10 years). I am Microsoft Certified with dozens of their so-called certs and I keep up with it only for the free software. I lack most of the 2003 server and exchange certifications only because I quit caring about it, but in my little 18' trailer, I'm running 3 dual-core machines with a combined ram of 512 GB and 2.5 TB of Raid 5 drive space.

This is just personal unracked machines as I like to have the living edge computer hardware in my home. When I buy the land I have a bid on, I'll be putting in quad core racked server blades to add to the Bionc processing I'm doing now.

If I can get this working, it will be wonderful. If I find it won't work, there will be documentation galore that tells why. When I shut this blog down for marketing purposes...those that have actually contributed become automatic partial owners, even if it is only to push me in a direction. Those that just sit and ridicule will be left to wonder.

I'm not rich, in any but a spiritual sense, but my step-father was an inheritor of 10% of the original 1880 shares of Imperial Oil. I grew up in a 14 bedroom mansion in London Ontario owned by the Smallman's (original address 238 Windermere Road, London, Ontario Canada) The property was sold and turned into an industrial and commerce hotel complex [http://www.windermeremanor.com/]. The only thing that really changed was that the space where the cars are parked in the center round used to be an Olympic sized outdoor pool with a 1m, 3m and 5m springboard set.

I only mention this to make you understand that your minor financial prejudices are not applicable here. I don't really care about making money off of this. If I can get it producing power for my complex, I'm cool with that. If we can turn this into a production alternative...way cool...and if we do that, those that contribute will benefit. Those that ridicule will be logged and laughed at all the way to the bank. I'm already logging all the discussions here. Those that help are included. I've got 6 names and contact information so far. That's just on my personality, not this thread.

You can help and be included. You can follow and ridicule and be tolerated. I already know that you actually have a brain. I've taken the time to read through a lot of your posts. Your ridicule may or may not bring up interesting issues. if you are not actively participating, you get no credit. Wow, neat concept. try and be accepted, ridicule and be critiqued and ignored with no recourse. Ridicule as much as you wish. I love people that will add some humor to the discussion, even when they don't mean to.

I already archive this discussion, and as it develops, will contact everyone and determine their interest and level of involvement.

All I ask you to consider is the fact that this is a variation of a Stirling engine that involves gravity as opposed to pressure. So enjoy this little thread that is soooo below your consideration and let us tortoises trample your Hausenfeffer into the ground.

I love your arrogance, SS. I ridicule your intelligence. I snub your education and I seriously question your ability to get 2 neurons to think outside of the box you've been educated into. If that statement doesn't get you, at least, animated, then all this discourse is for naught.

At this point, you have 3 choices. You can ridicule and denounce. That's cool. It won't detract from my demonstrable evidence. And we can all watch as your admonishments change as the facts change. You can just ignore/remain sceptical. That's the cowards way out. Ostrich Enabled. Or you can denounce outright. This option takes balls. You have to prove that I can't do it. It's probably the least difficult, if you are dealing with grade schoolers. Much more difficult when dealing with me. But not impossible. Dozens of people have already done it. None easily.

Talk to Steve Ballmer, yeah, Microsoft CEO. Long before he graduated to that illustrious position, we argued for 3 weeks on the markup language changes he was implementing that were changed between Word 2 and Word 3. The changes were a problem with the document scanning software I was using. 6 of the 22 changes that affected me I had him rewrite. At the same time (same year) I had Steve Wozniak help me through a hypercard serial access issue. (I had access to Steve W and Steve J through my Mother's Lead counsel position for Apple Canada. Sonja Gundersen, not Kaighin. I have my Father's name.

I hope I've dropped enough names for you to, at least, take me somewhat seriously, but I'd rather have you critically looking for problems and solutions instead of looking for times you think you can assuage your ego. Trust me. If you wanna just sit back and ridicule, I can make you look like the idiot child in a family of morons. I'd much rather you turn that massive brain of yours to helping me (and join in the whatever proceeds come of it) than to see you spout vitriol and watch me keep you bathing in it.

My little simplistic estimates showed it couldn't work. Your research proved that I was right. What part of my discussion were you arguing? Regardless of your impression, I'm not stupid. I'm also not Omnipotent. But if I can turn an elegantly simple heat engine into a 10-20 hp generator with 0 emissions, what's your problem?

Yes, Tom we're still watching.

You've been quite the chracter since you appeared a few months ago.

What is all the name dropping supposed to prove?

The question: Is the juice worth the squeeze? [The project was not considered worth the financial investment."]

If you can use a bunch of low value junk & some time, possibly so.

I love making old junk useful!

The low rpm isn't really a problem.

the framework is just a bunch of labor, to harvest the materials & balancing. Maybe orient the thing so the prevailing winds will add to the rotation by pushing some old 55gal drums split in 1/2 & pivioting [self dumpping fans].

Hey Garthh. Watch all you want. I know I'm somewhat 'larger than life'. Not my initial choice but wouldn't trade if for the world. Watch and learn (probably not a good example of what to do, as I tend to be more resilient than most and somewhat unique).

You'll have to forgive my initial exuberance with the site. I thought I had found actual thought here, but my initial evaluation was quickly undermined by the same old stoic ignorance, fear and bombasticisity that can be found in any tenured moron. There are a few bright lights. I've culled some of them from the sheep and will continue to discuss things. As for the ignorant, they will do what they will do until they realize that they no longer own themselves. My bet is, they never realize that.

That's not a slight on anyone. It is those that make the world go 'round. They live in India, China, Russia...etc, etc, etc. They do what they are told and dream only what they are allowed. While I may add some impetus to the world in it's travels, I will also introduce new vectors and old vectors that have been forgotten. I have only one absolute in my philosophy. It's a little thing, but probably the most powerful understanding in the world. "I am Me."

I'm as social as the next ant, and would probably challenge you to a game of 501 in the bar as we discussed the minutia of the day. I've had thought-provoking conversations with skid row alcoholics, violent idiot-savants and leaders of industry. I've been in a small village and worked for and watched crops succeed and fail. I've truly known hunger, and avarice.

I've known hate and lust for vengeance. I have known righteous rage. I've committed murder in it's name. I've seen the expression of true human nature and revelled in it. I've been on the scene and hidden by friends while atrocities occurred that turn my stomach yet today. And I've helped dig one mass grave.

I've also seen amazing acts of kindness. I've literally seen people die to protect perfect strangers. I've been the stranger. I challenge you to come up with another experience that can so well illustrate the multiplicity of man. I actually hope you never have to find out what man is truly capable of.

I find your assumption of a plebiscite interesting. "Is the juice worth the squeeze?" Depends on the circumstances and the individual. But if I were to interpret that comment in context, you would be asking me "Is the audience worth the thought?" Well, since you were trying to belittle my attempt, you obviously do not think so.

True to form for a coward, you coach your words in innuendo and hide beneath a haphazard cloak of subterfuge. You threaten but state no reason. You invoke unspecified others and use the royal 'We' to imply more substance and to expand your threat. I love how relatively innocuous comments can so lead to a much greater understanding. It's all in knowing how to look. I'm much more offended by your subterfuge than I would be if you spoke your mind.

You then go on to ridicule my thoughts on this particular subject. You add a few moronic comments that you coach in a supposedly helpful guise, They do nothing but show your disdain for both me and the purpose of this discussion. What belief of yours did I tread upon to cause this hatred? Can you prove that what I am interested in will cause the downfall of the world? Will my interest and experimentation cause you hardship? Would it take food from you or your family's mouths? I doubt it would cause you any consternation at all. Yet you feel compelled to criticize and ridicule. Most do that out of fear and feelings of inadequacy. I'll let you make that determination.

Alas, I have little hope that anything I might say or point out to you will have any positive result. I can only hope. I don't hide who I am or why I am. Why do you?

""Wally Minto's Fluid Differential Heat/mechanical engine. Works in theory, works in a multitude of tiny prototypes, so the science and theory is sound. Can we build one?"

Sure you can. But why? Who's going to foot the bill? Make a Ferris Wheel Ride and charge for the rides?

"Lots of sunshine, lots of land, and lots of load and infrastructure to tie into."

Are you thinking you can use it to generate power? Oh NO! Not another one of those deals!

The Minto Wheel is touted on most of the "something for nothing" alternate energy sites as a wonderful machine in any of its many variations. None of which provide a practical power engine to drive a generator. You will get more return on investment by playing the Power Ball Lottery where the chances are 1:10^7 or less.

Sorry to have to burst you bubble but facts are facts and I have to assume you want to know what to expect.

Wonderful thing about these computer thingies, and the connection to all those other thingies, is without getting my butt up I can research almost anything.

So, expecting another perpetual motion machine I plugged in "Wally Minto's Fluid Differential Heat/mechanical engine."

Surprise! It is not a perpetual motion machine.

And, while I was reading back what I had writ, I remembered a little toy that must work on the same principles. Anybody remember the bird figure that tips forward to dip its beak in a glass of water and then pops back to do it over and over and...

Looking at the Minto's machine it may work, that especially if it was carefully engineered and balanced.

But why would anybody want to build such a crude device to work off the heat of the Sun or a fire, or..??

We have far more efficient devices, for instance solar panels that produce electricity from the sun's radiation. Even then, in my opinion and given the area involved, I don't think those are very efficient except perhaps in spot applications.

Of course as a lark, a gag built to very large size, perhaps Ferris wheel size..???

Perhaps as a demonstration of the stuff our inventive notions sometimes lead us into..

j.

Actually folks, a little side conversation just reminded me of just the place to build a giant, hundred feet diameter, one of those things and it would be appreciated like another wonder of the world precisely because at this event every year in the Nevada Desert freaky stuff is appreciated just because it is useless and freaky.

Go to

http://www.burningman.com/

and look at the pictures.

I live on social security peanuts but if I can collect from an insurance company whose insured, a tractor-trailer, rear-ended and seriously injured me sixteen months ago, I would love to build with those of you crazy as me and then disassemble for transport and erection in the desert.

j.

Would love to have you in. Even if your just there to add your $37.50 in (inflation you know, 2 cents just doesn't go as far as it used to).

You saw the same thing I did. It's not a free energy device, just a heat engine. But it's the small differentials that intregue me. It's basically the same concept as a stirling, just using gravity and fluid/vapor displacement. Since the Stirling chambers are static, the use of temperature vaporization and mass differential between the vapor and liquid don't make sense. But they do in this model.

And you don't even have to rely on the mass of the condensed fluid. You could use the pressure to move a heavy metal fluid like mercury (though I would prefer a ferrofluid to mercury - mercury bad...iron better). That would require a much more complicated system of pistons and seals, but doable.

Anyway. Your inputs are always welcome, and I'll definitely make a website if/and/or when I get this project off the ground. If you don't trust and believe in me....take a number, the line is long. If you'e going to chide or chastise me...cool. Just take the time to think out your assault well, as I'm more than willing to battle verbally. (just read some of my posts...:P)

And one more note...assume that I am right. I've never been wrong. I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken (rimshot please).

And just as an aside. I lived through a motorcycle accident that caused the surgeons to pronounce me dead twice. 2.5 years in the hospital, 24 major operations, over 100 minor...I'm cuter than I ever was (also somewhat delusional). Shit will never work quite the same, but you can always work through it and overcome. Semper victoria.

Not exactly portable or high powered, but simple. Hope you have luck and fun with it.

it might be portable if I could find an application for a 25' truck that moved .25 mph. I ain't holding my breath.

There are some basic designs out there that are, in and of themselves impractical, but have some sound fundamentals that I hadn't concidered. Works in principle, but then again, so does Communism. Practice is an entirely different equation.

But think, even if I could only produde a 2 hp continual engine based on a thermal barrier for cooling and a manure pile for heat...that's 1.5 kw/h per day, 50-75 % of daily household use. Add another wheel and we're making money. Simple is sometimes better....I hope.

Good exchanges! But you coming at me with a sharp sword, when (not if) I try to encourage you the wrong way around is a disturbing picture!?! So I proceed forewarned.

Whatever you do, theory gets you just that far. If it is possible, a few experiments are in order. It just should be cheap and quick, to prove or disprove a point. When such things are getting too expensive in money or time, everybody gets discouraged. Trying, adjusting, optimizing takes effort, but at least it should not take much time and even less money.

So, let's see what gets you there in a reasonable shape:

1,. Low tech assembly: plain plumbing techniques, as screw seals, soft soldering and brazing for mechanical strenght.

2,. Free canisters. These are the handheld propane torch cans, meant to be used once, then thrown away. Good thinwall steel can, good seal, free.

3,. Semiflexible copper tube sold from the roll, by the feet.

4,. The rest you can build even from wood for prototypes. Who cares, beauty does not count.

5,. As far as the working fluid / gas concerns I did not look into the details of propane and butane, which come to mind first. But I know, that lowering the airpressure over water can cause boiling and flash evaporation at room temperature. So, the boiling temperature should be conveniently adjustable just by setting the degree of vacuum. Pressure gauges are cheap.

6,. If you figure, say 120 deg Fahrenheit hot water from solar in the final setup, just make the same in a bowl of water in your kitchen, so that you can experiment with it at your leisure day or night.

7,. Is water in a bowl right or sprayed on hot and cold? I do not know. But a few quick experiments will settle the question for sure.

If you noticed, that I am for the cheap / quick / dirty experimentation, you are to be commended for the sharpness of the observation (yeah, pun intended). Whatever I did the other way around I mostly never finished. So, start scrounging and scrounging. You will be surprised, how much "stuff" plumbers and such discard. That is a goldmine for experimenters, who do not have to obey local codes. For tough stuff Ebay, but I do not see the need for it here.

So, proceed. I am fairly confident, that your better half will not object (much) as soon as she notices that you do not make to much of a mess and do not empty the kitty too badly.

So now you have the second supporter. Let's talk.

All great ideas. Especially for cost effectiveness aspect (I haven't won a lottery recently - unless you count the one run by the IRS Audit staff). Got a dual chamber design in mind that doesn't increase the complexity much, but will definitely make it look even odder than it is.

Basic premis for the design change is fluid heat transfer is about 4 times more efficient than air heat transfer. Hence one of the problems with the design is not being able to cool the tanks as rapidly as you heat them....

The idea is a dual chamber system ustilizing a finned tube array. Got the idea from the Heat exchangers on the pressure tanks I paint...

Notice the silver finned piping on the left of the tank. That's the heat exchanger that sucks the heat out of the air to revaporize the stored liquid gas. It seems that every time the change out a tank, they use new piping and there is a bunch of that stuff that is still perfectly good but now just gathering dust. I should be able to procure all I need for free.

As for water, I'm figuring a standing pool as more energy is required to pump it in a spray.

"Notice the silver finned piping on the left of the tank."

"It seems that every time the change out a tank, they use new piping and there is a bunch of that stuff that is still perfectly good but now just gathering dust. I should be able to procure all I need for free."

Scrounge away all you can get. The Handy & Harmon spot price per Troy Oz. is currently OVER $16.

Go for the Gold....err SILVER. Worth more than any Minto wheel YOU can BUILD or BUY.

Um, silver in color, not in composition. The word 'silver' can be a noun, or, as in this case, an adjective denoting the apparent color of the piping. Your comprehension skills leave much to be desired. Are you really that obtuse or just trying, with your limited imagination, to make fun of me? I'd really like to know as if it's the latter, there is help to be had. I hear there's an opening in 7th grade, though because of your advanced age, the entry requirements might prove somewhat challenging for you.

Keep firing away, even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while. Word of caution though. I wouldn't bite down too hard, if I were you...you might just have found your own.

Honored sir,

Detailed description is here: http://keelynet.com/minto/minto2.htm for BIG wheel......

I think that there is better way to use this system, because lot of energy is spent to lift liquid all the way up, and there is a need to have as big surface for heating liquid as possible in first place....

To make fast improvement, I would set lot of spiral pipes starting at bottom of drums and ending on top of drums, looking at position where drum is immersed in heating media, on downturn of wheel. Spirals have to go in radial direction, going down first and up again. If pipes are leading from bottom tank to opposite tank it would be not most effective, so angle should be 120 degrees, in order that first submerged drum start feeding liquid to topmost drum, and deeper it goes, it should feed same container on downturn path, and comming up it would add steam to submerged drum. Still better would be if three drums are connected on 120 degrees, but in a way that liquid would go always from first submerged drum to 120 degrees drum that is still under heating media, so part of steam would go and support feeding topmost drum from BOTH submerged drums, and when first drum go deeper and second go out of basin, remaining allready heated fluid from spirals and drum would flow back to submerged drum, and it would faster push fluid into descending drum........

So, this way drums on top and down falling would get filled twice as fast and there would be less need to heat fluid, and energy loss would be also less...

In addition, spirals would give still more lever power to turn wheel when going down, and they would be empty going up as fluid would flow down, adding still more mass to downturning drums and their spirals, and we would use gravity force still more effective.

Such wheel systems could be put on same axle in paralel, and also turned 15 degrees from one another for even number of wheels on same axle or 5 degrees for odd number, but it must be multiplies of number 3........ System of 15 wheels could be turned 2 degrees from one another, 30 wheels by 1 degree.......

Purpose of multiple wheels is to dampen sloshing effects on whole system to make turning more steady, and to increase torque, of course.

I think You could figure the rest, meaning long or short ends of pipes going across, best point of entrance in opposite drum in regard to intended function, as well as number or size of such pipes. I personally think that bigger pipes could serve as spokes of the wheel, or spokes could get hold in places where three pipes cross, or additionall pipes could be in place connecting opposite drums for faster draining......

For this system every wheel should have 12 drums, of course, for such connections to be possible......

Now, speaking of drums, they are good for homemade Mintos wheels, but considering the function, I think other shapes would be more practicall, like for instance teardrop profile tanks where tails face outward and on which are spirals situated. Design could also be adjusted so that reservoirs met on radiall lines connecting them and separating from one another. Neat way to save half material used for ends of reservoirs, no? That way there would be no losing of energy when wheel compartments enter into water, and spirals could also be connected on radiall lines to one another, and they should therefore be conic spirals with wider end turned out from center and touching each other for easy joining, which would give more strenght to whole construction, and also higher quantity of fluid would be at farthest point from center, making bigger lever for gravity to turn it..........

In addition to gravity pull, emptied reservoirs still under heating media would gain speed by adding tendency of hollow objects to go to surface of liquid used for heating, using atmospheric pressure on liquid as source of energy too.......

I could combine this with wind power also, but I would like to earn some money on my ideas, You know?

I take You for Your word that people participating in Your production would be rewarded according to their influence on sucess of Your project.........

In addition to this, I could add windpower use to described wheels in controled manner, which is part of my invention of speciall windmills, and this I would disclose to You privately if we make some cooperation agreement..........

I wanted to send You message privately but Your malibox on CR4 is disabled, therefore please contact me directly

Regards form Zagreb, the capitol of Croatia, EUROPE!

Marijan Pollak IT Systems Analyst & Systems Engineer 1st. Class, Instructor & Team Leader

My son and I built a 3 foot diameter model for a science fair this past spring, using 3/4 copper pipe as our "drums" and 3/8 copper as the transfer tubing. We used Butane lighter fluid as the working liquid. The one wheel produced a steady 1 turn every 45 seconds while pulling up a 3 lb weight attached to the 1 inch shaft. water temp was 60 deg F. air temp 38 deg. F. I'm looking forward to adding additional wheels and trying it when the temps drop back down below 0 Deg. F. should produce much more efficiently with more rapid cooling. With our colder temps here in Alaska, and the relative high cost per KWH (.82 KWH) this has a lot of potential for alternative and practical power production.

Hello Guest,

Please consider joining Yahoo's Mintowheel group if you're not already a member. We'd love to hear about your build (and see a video if available). Sure this type of heat engine needs more experimentation and optimization, but please don't let the naysayers discourage you. Have you seen the Youtube videos of Helioechidna's working Minto Wheels? Very nice!

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MintoWheel/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fUlKBH1sY8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs_OtCsDJoY

Svengali

Well, did you ever build the thing or not?

No reply for this many years. . . ?

These guys built a prototype and reported it in August 1976, and seemed rather disappointed. . .

https://www.motherearthnews.com/nature-and-environment/solar-wheel-zmaz76jaztak