the myth of the linear electrical generator?

Hello JE in Chicago

Major problems exist for any long-term and efficient mechanical methods of extracting energy from reciprocating/pulsating "wave action" or similar devices.

1. Sea-water corrosion
2. Difficult access for repairs
   
3. Losses in energy conversion
   
4. Distance from ultimate energy user/s

Those above are immediately evident, there are further problems, if you carefully examine the processes involved.

Solar Cells and/or Rotary devices, are far more useful in the long term.

We are seeing thousands of "Wind Farms" being installed around the Planet Earth, and I predict that in a few short years, the rusting hulks of the then superseded "Wind Technology machinery", will litter open spaces.

Kind Regards....

I want to stay out of the water too!

See my post in the sustained energy.. it's the long version of this question.

I'm all about keeping thing surprisingly simple yet very effective.

...thanks for the quick answer!

You are absolutely right.100% agree with you.

Spoke to an engineering colleague yesterday about some new winf farms that have been installed not far from Pittsburgh PA over the last few years. There is also the issue of the environmentalists complaining about the wind farms as they apparently are noisy, interfere with bird migration, etc.

So I agree that the wind farms will all be rusting hulks very soon. No system of power generation that relies on uncontrollable natural forces (ie: the wind isnt consistently above 10 mph, the sun doesnt shine at night, etc.)will likely ever be cost effective because power generation will always require that a constant base-load of power be available. These technologies cannot provide consistent full-load power.

Plenty of things are feasible, indeed practicable...and yet are not cost effective.
The trick part is finding a source of 'waste' energy....when you do find it...there are aften ways of minimising the waste rather than trying to recover it.
Obviousy stuff like tides, waves and wind are difficult to minimise...so harvesting becomes an option.

Del

As an example ...
The energy absorbed in a car's suspension system as it goes over a bump....this could be harvested...but the additional weight/complexity of the parts would probably make it a waste of time...
Whereas the braking energy is worth harvesting in an electric car because it is relatively easy to do and the ammount of energy is considerable.

Del

If all energy from the shock absorbers went into generating electricity, I think it would outperform the braking energy (on average conditions which includes motorway driving).

The shock absorber should go and be replaced by a hydraulic motor with unidirectional mini turbine in the shock circuitry. This way you would have minimal weight addition as the hydraulic motor acts as the shock absorber. Electronics would be necessary to adjust the characteristics but even that is ok as it would weigh very little and already exists on vehicles as well.

Ah, I am not really an engineer, I just pretend sitting behind my keyboard, getting angry at people that do not use the spell checker

Hello again.. I'm not a crackpot, but I play one on TV. I'm very much into engineering my own ideas and improving on others. I have been pushing this idea around in my head and on paper for over 4 years.. along with a hundred other ideas that my brother and I collectively share information about. We have made payment and after many years will be receiving 3 gorgeous patents for our 1st bread and butter design. It's on the market and beginning to sell well after a couple years of trial and error. Doing that out of nothing was not an easy task, but it was more than rewarding enough to pursue further. I'm not fishing for anything other than information. For the large part, I don't think to many companies are developing visionary products, and just try to develop components that their current production facilities can produce 24/7.. So many 'inventions' are for needless applications, So many are overdeveloped and under realized. ________________________________________ So... It's literally the lack of linear generators and available people that were willing to speak about them that finally drove me to post. And now you can see why! I go on and on and ... oh well I digress. I have always been interested in energy recovery and conversion. I studied EE for a couple years... Thought it was a little dry for my taste, and then went on to get my degree in electronics. That's my education 101.. big deal.. It's all about inception and conception. A good idea is easy to produce, and solves a real problem _______________________ For this invention, I have drawn up several plans for everything including mobile units and large permanent arrangements. (mostly sketches) I have also written short inquiries to several companies dealing with existing technologies that could be utilized in the take off energy conversion from my undisclosed and unique device. Knowledge gained... I'm just looking for more. ________________ This will certainly not be the next provisional patent JE will file, can't wait to build a larger rig that I could easily assemble and disassemble. Right now I'm very early on, but I can't wait to have a little extra money to spend on further scale testing. It's one of those ideas that people think is such pier in the sky... And to a large extent.. I guess it is. The good thing for myself is that a linear electrical generator is just perhaps my 'holy grail' electrical conversion system, and not my only option. Fortunately for myself I also feel my device is the 'holy grail' application for linear electrical generator. I have inquired about and studied many viable options. I believe I WILL be using hydraulics in future test rigs, but that's a ways off. If it comes down to it, I will purchase some big ass hockey puck sized rare earth magnets, and start making my own linear electrical generator.. The current conversion and storage would done largely with off the shelf parts. chew on that!

Linear generators (alternators) have been studied extensively. University of Oregon's web site has good info among others. The problem with linear alternators is the translator mass, narrow band width, constant accerleration and deceleration as the translator must constantly start and stop. A magnetic rack and pinion is currently being developed to provide rotary motion to an alternator. If you have a better way of doing it I would like to see it when it is published application.

Some of the best info I've located has been on university web sites, so I'll be sure to check them out.

I understand the problems you're bringing up.________________

Recently I have had some discussions with a major rotary hydraulics manufacturer / supplier, and will most likely convert my early test rig into one with this type of take off.

I have dealt with a variety of hydraulic actuators in the past, but not very large units.

There are some pre existing systems I could use for testing etc.

In the end this is just one of those projects that keeps me thinking about the options.

_______________________________

More basics...

1. While the stroke on my test rig was only about 6" to 12" and could lift about 100 pounds several times per minute. A slightly larger test unit would pull with hundreds of pounds of force usually about 5-15 times per minute over a distance of several feet.

2. building a full scale working model could be accomplished using basic off the shelf parts and systems for a surprisingly low cost.

3. Construction of the technology could include well suited sustainable materials.

4. Silent / located at or near source of use / pleasing to the eye as well as environmental groups / not harmful to any wildlife / plant or animal / capable of running in absence of any human or other activity / a real 'why didn't I think of that?' solution / thanks for the input... I'm still searching elsewhere too!

wave machines are close to practicality now. The early ones were made from breakable stuff.

In general they divide into two types, cyclic lift machines with floats and mechanisms. The other type depended on varying cyclic head to push air through a turbine.

All had to deal with salt water and stuff that grew on them.

here is a floater that captures via hydraulic fluid

http://www.pelamiswave.com/content.php?id=161

turbine search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22wave+energy%22+%2Bturbine

floater search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22wave+energy%22+%2Bfloat&btnG=Search

Thanks... I've seen all of that.. Even wrote to the top company.

I guess my original proposition is correct.

The linear electrical generator is a myth..

More fiction than fact...

Nobody has come up with a single piece of news.

I would love to hear otherwise, but I won't hold my breath.

A linear motor is a linear electrical generator: both are completely viable.

There is a two-stroke engine that reciprocates only (sans crankshaft) and the reciprocating motion is used to generate AC which can be easily converted to DC.

I think your work work is well worthwhile. As Del has said, there are loads of reciprocating motions for which the cost and complexity of conversion can be too high (and in which the reciprocation, as in suspension, is too unpredictable to count of to provide useful amounts of energy for a particular purpose: typically shock aborbers on cars remain cool, unless your are driving at racing speeds off road.). But there would seem to be many applications where it makes sense.

Suppose you live where I do, with a house shaded by trees, and with very little wind -- but nevertheless you wanted to generate your own clean energy. If you lived by the seashore, you might be very interested in tide and waves. (Granted, often seashore and waves means wind -- but there are certainly cases where one does not have access to wind.)

If you lived on the Hudson river around NYC, and floated a dock with perhaps 10,000# buoyancy, I'd think that on most days you could generate plenty of electricity from the wave action of the boats going by -- even on an otherwise calm day. Whether the actual motion of coil vs magnet is linear or rotational makes little difference. It is easy to imagine a boom attached to the dock, and pivoted on shore that would drive a crank shaft and gearbox, providing fairly high rotational speed at and alternator.

Of course, you have to do the cost benefit analysis,but I think anything that generates electricity from natural reciprocations is worth pursuing.

Hi, I've had this topic buzzing around for many years & to me wave power is the most neglected power source available & could be harnessed below the surface completely invisable so as not to spoil the scenery, the main generator could be housed on land underground and linked to the energy collectors in the sea by underground pipes, the collection modules would look something like the flippers on a pinball machine set with the thin end pointing up, (these would be some 20-30ft long )fixed to a shaftwith a hydraulic pump at the end, these would pump oil through a non return valve into a manifold which can be fed by ten's or hundreds of the collectors, the flippers would generate energy on both the forward and backward stroke. if the flipper assembleys were anchored by concrete blocks so they can be lifted out for maintenance by the removal of a few bolts. The land based generator would in turn be driven by a hydraulic motor. The beauty of this system is that it is quite cost effective & maintenance free as well as self cooling. I commend this to the house

I am not in disagreement with you. I have long thought such systems have been overcomplicated and under researched. There is still a fine line to be crossed when you move equipment into the open sea. It still might make better economic since to have the generation and step up equipment in a few protected cribs around a cluster of such generators and only run the power lines back to shore.

Since myself and my neighbors don't live near a rough ocean. The application does little to satisfy me.

What I propose would be entirely different

JE, I read many years ago of a man in the states who generated electric using a horizontal wheel with blades around the outside mutch like a water wheel, it was about 12-15ft dia, and he built it in the roof of his garage with slots in back & front so it was not visable & no matter which way the wind blew the wheel kept turning,

His as far as I can recall was hooked up to a bank of batteries but Ido remember him saying he had to pay no electric bills in the two-three years since he installed it,

Bazzer Englander

sounds like a fun a worthwhile project! I did not hear of that one....

A long way off from any of my considerations, but something to ponder?

I've seen a few commercial setups that operate on a similar principal. (and a few home brews)

...I like the idea of that too, but I'm working on something a little bigger... and arguably more simple than anything out there today.. Simple is my game!

... In my final incarnation.. I know I'll be dealing with hydraulics.. I just know it!

Hello again, JE in Chicago

It is not commonly realized that three now very ordinary electric devices actually use the modified linear motion principle to work effectively.

These devices are:

1. Electric Motor
2. Electric Alternator
3. Electrical Generator

Because the developers of these machines had a burst of inspiration, and understood that if you reshaped the stationary part, and connected the end to the beginning, a true circular motion would be obtained.

This inspired design eliminated the reciprocating problem, with its considerable inefficiencies, and also enabled shaft/bearing assemblies which were easy to make, and if lubricated correctly would work easily for many years without servicing.

The big problem with reciprocating motion, is the inefficient start/stop/reverse problem with parts which by their nature are heavy in mass.

Best of luck to you, if you can manage to overcome some basic laws of Mechanics and Physics.

Kind Regards, from far away....

I am in no way trying to overcome basic laws of physics.

I am very well grounded, and understand how the electric motor was developed.

I am merely inquiring about linear generators since I have a massive slow reciprocating load from which I could harness excessive forces.

I'm merely trying to explore current and emerging technologies in an effort to further simplify my design.

From your point of view they hold zero promise in every application?

How about a large oval for the purpose of you design.

Just an idea mind you but if the reciprocation were to take place in a track following a long straight path then curve 180 and turn back then do the same at the other end wouldn't you in effect be using a radial design with an elongated pattern. The directional shift would just take palace in a short circular motion instead of an instantaneous stop and start motion.

Seems like this would work well in a long interval reciprocation event.

Again just a thought.

Hey, J E,

Perhaps the most common example of such a machine is the Flashlight you'll find in most camping equipment or marine stores. To make it operate one grasps it firmly and shakes the b..........s out of it. This action reciprocates an armature within the body of the flashlight charging a small storage battery, and so giving, eventually, light.

I guess, thinking outside the box a bit this device could be scaled up somewhat to perform other useful work. I haven't done the math but there will be a critical limit somewhere.

Cheers,

S

OK.. Of course I know about that flashlight. I would never consider that a viable invention. Nobody wants to jerk off their appliances to make them operate.

In terms of scaled up... At rest my device would have TONS of mass ready to slowly reciprocate through a field instead of that grape in a medicine bottle that they call a great invention.

Depends how you come by the 'tons of mass'.

Maybe we could equip a small country with the devices, feed 'em the wrong diet, and with resultant shakes, by hardwiring them into a grid, generate gazillions of watts of power.

Have to run three shifts tho'

Or, we could develop a model for the millions of wankers out there and give them something usefull to do.

In jest we trust?????????

When the chips are down you'll do things you heretofore didn't dream about.

You want this thing to run? Have a few of us old-time engineers develop it for you.

But we only use the existing laws of physics.

If I could tell you how it worked, and the energy I intend to harness we could all work on it together, but that's just not how these things work.

In terms of the mass I intend to use. It could be in the form of nearly anything?

I'm just using the mass for it's weight. I could use local earth, or water tanks, but in an actual installation, it would likely be a mass made from steel or steel and concrete.

_____________________

As much as I would love to share the simple details of my design with old and new engineer's.. I just don't have the non disclosure to do so... Come to Chicago or $end me to you. I have plenty of non-disclosures.

I would love to have engineers work on it, but not to test the validity of the design, just to design the next big one.

__________________________

I contacted the 'red sausage' company a year or two ago asking about their hydraulics. I'm confident my design could generate the necessary forces to utilize their recovery system.

I did not expect, nor get very much out of them, but I've learned a lot since then.

____________

There are several existing technologies I could imagine testing.

My test rigs do not need any actual recovery systems.

I am just measuring the forces generated. err... captured or.. perhaps redirected.

_____________________________

It would be nice if yall could stop suggesting I don't know me physics.

I know I can't spell much, and I ain't no fancy person.

Really, I'm right here.

If you don't have your own ideas?.. that's your mental hang up. not mine.

_______________________________

Who ya gonner get to shake a three ton linear generator?

Bazzer

Thank you for asking!

The correct answer is nobody!

It will move on it's own... I've already proven my designs ability to move great mass.

...the greatest thing... it's a sure departure from what where doing, but my design uses existing knowledge and equipment!

...more mass.. more available power.. not more complicated

Here is something just as an idea.

Float the magnets in flat sliders on the outside of a ships hull. Cover the lot to maintain hydro dynamics. The coils on the inside will generate electricity.

That is tonnage at work if you will.

They do have one, the Faraday Induction system as used in those flashlights that you shake to get light without batteries. They sometimes work. May not be energy efficient though, your arm gets tired quick.

Have a look at 'www.pelamis.com' or Pelamis in google.

The prototype is in dock at Leith,Scotland, (Edinburgh). I pass by it almost everyday.We call it the red sausage.

It has had a couple of 'successful' field trials at sea but seems to spend most of the time moored in the dock.

Surprisingly to us used to seeing vessels battered by the North Sea it returns looking totally intact after its excursions despite being deliberately exposed to the roughest of conditions.

I am informed that about £5M has been allocated by a quango for development,and the ex Vaagen (Parsons Peebles) transformer factory will be used.

J.E.

I visited your sites and I think I know what you are trying to achieve.
Many have gone before you and there has been much research already done.
Stop re-inventing the wheel and learn from my friend Chris at http://oupower.com/
(It's not time to release my own stuff yet.)

"The Gregg"

Holy crap... LOL

Although I have been purposefully vague and misleading in some aspects... I hope nobody else thinks I'm working on OU generator or an overbalanced wheel.. Those things are hilarious at best.

_____________________________

No.. not in this lifetime.

If you're so concerned with people not reinventing the wheel, then please!.. explain your website?

The tides of the world could hold a key to create power from the oceans of the world. A ship displacement can be an enormous amount of weight. The rise and fall of the tides is a massive energy source created by the moon and gravitational pull. The energy could be used to for lifting large mass and weights for controlled release at low tide, water turbines could generate energy when tides are in motion.

The Bay of Fundy tides are incredible, 30ft. tides are common. For an energy generation unit, the potential is real. Design goals to resist corrosion, storage of mechanical energy, and the generating units themselves would be required in a DFEMA type process. The potential is real, and tides are always avalible

Simple way to harvest a 30' tide... or any of them.

1. Build a sturdy box in the water who's top is just below the surface at high tide.

2. Attach a water turbine / generator onto a discharge located slightly below the water line at low tide.

You could do this for next to nothing and by the thousands all over the world in developing areas just by plugging the holes in some decommissioned ships and chopping the top.

...people make things so difficult.

This is now done on many small bays, with dams to maximize the head. Water is allowed in only at high tide and allowed out at low tide.

Problem is cycliv aspect. Not base load.

What about people without bays, or people without a lot of damn money?

In the end, it was just a suggestion of how simple things can be.

...About the cyclic load... .. at low tide, reverse the turbine and generate electricity as the 'box' or 'old boat' fills up... If done properly, it would never be completely empty.. or full... just non stop juice..

Attach a couple big ships together and you will have tons of hydro power.

When it is no longer serviceable. (to many holes to plug) chop it down.. recycle it, or leave it for a fish habitat.... right next to the top of the ship that was cut off so many years ago..

... Now I've got more fish and reliable electricity without spending a lot of damn money.

sure it won't power a big city, but with todays lighting and lower powered devices.. you could do quite a bit.

Not very glamorous, not unlimited in potential, but extremely simple and reliable.

I think I'm going to build my own linear generator with a sandwich of PM's ...

does anybody have recommended reading or another source of information on the topic?

I know i create some voltage, but I'm not sure what components will be needed to accumulate the generated power.

sooo... what goes between the generator and the battery?

I saw a book on ebay for close to 400 bucks... ha ha.. I could build my entire test system for about that much!

You could prototype a cheap system with a car alternator. A rack and pinion (etc, etc) could be used to spin the alternator as the tide drops or rises. The direction of spin makes no difference, because you will rectify the current anyway. Eventually, you'd want to make it all waterproof, but at first, the alternator could be mounted far above the water.

Ordinarily, the only thing absolutely required between the alternator and batteries is a rectifier, which changes the AC into DC (and prevents current from flowing from the battery into the alternator). A rotating alternator will produce AC with a frequency dependent on speed. [A linear generator would produce AC with the frequency of the tide: the problem with such an arrangement is that the voltage would be extremely low (millivolts or microvolts). To produce a usable voltage the magnets have to move past the coils very fast. If the tide moves 10 feet in 6 hours, then keeping the generator linear would mean having to use something like a mile long lever.

To charge a battery, the voltage output of the alternator must be higher than the battery voltage... but not too high. To make low voltage higher, you use a boost converter. To keep the voltage from going too high, you use a regulator.

My suggestion would be to make a mechanism that would spin an alternator as fast as possible, and to use the built-in regulator and rectifiers of a car alternator. Hook it to a battery and see what you get. Then fiddle and refine. Typically a standard car alternator will produce a usable charge at an alternator speed of 1000 rpm.

car alternators have the diodes built in and they are three phase for better DC.

True, and a regulator as well. There are also car-style alternators with permanent magnets (which extract energy from the vacuum -- whoops wrong thread) that are somewhat more efficient, and are made for windmill use, but can't be found laying around junk yards.

Thanks a ton Ken!

That's a really good Idea.. You have amassed some great practical knowledge..

The one big bonus for my project is that water is in no part of the equation.. Lake Michigan inspires me, but I'm not having visions of a blanketing the lake with rise and fall generators of any sort.

I've wondered why so many patents exist for linear generators..?. so many big projects are being funded.?. and well.? Very few 'working' examples exist?. What you say makes very good sense, and straightens out some serious conflict of thought I've been dealing with.!?!. Thanks!

I've been leaning towards a hydraulic system, but that's a little more than my 'current' budget will allow..

I love to toy with parts that are easy to locate and in my budjet... Especially if I can do some welding here and there! (I can weld all day and enjoy it, but not every single day)

I'm not sure what the rotational speed of a rack and pinion set up would be, but that's only a matter of gear ratio..... It is actually one of the methods I've thought about, but I was leaving the alternator thoughts to purely rotational pursuits... blah!

dang... I've just had another epiphany!

Now I've got more research and developing to do.. ! If I'm getting somewhere with this and I want to show it off a little, I'll ask if you want to take a peek at my non disclosure.

Don't wait up... I think about things long before acting, but I will take action. A nice summer project perhaps?

----

It's easy to point out that of all the functioning wave generators out there... none use linear generators, but several of them have it in design models?

I'm really curious now? I've seen 6"dia by 1/2" pm 'pucks'...... oh well.. more reading to do.!?

So can we call this one 'myth confirmed'?

As Emeril said.. BAM

The actual company website has more info if you search RLA.

RLA.. Coolest thing ever.

More later..