Previous in Forum: IMPORTANT - VIRUS ALERT   Next in Forum: mini pelletization plants
Close
Close
Close
29 comments
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1818
Good Answers: 7

Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/19/2008 2:43 PM

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/space/04/19/skorea.soyuz/index.html?iref=topnews

How long before these glory hungry countries, like Russia, Korea, India and China will end up dropping the big one in an over populated area and killing loads of people all because of old fashioned, badly maintained and unsuitable gear?

I recall stories of the Russian space station which had more repair cables running through it's interior than there were originally in the controls when built. The umbilical ran through the living quarters and stopped hatches from being closed. How stupid is that?

I start to think it is getting too crowded up there and we will not be told if something can go wrong before it is too late. Even then we cannot do anything anyway. What if that shooting down of that satellite had gone wrong. The Chinese did one and admittedly that is where I would expect the error to come from but USA has not got a trouble free history in that department either.

I am willing to take the risk from a science rich technology from a technically well developed space company but the constant going up there from Russia and China bothers me. Soon we have to add India and Korea as well.

What controls are there to ensure that what they do is safe?

Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: landing satellite soyuz space
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru
United States - Member - Charter Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Charter Member

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The People's Republic of Massachusetts
Posts: 1946
Good Answers: 73
#1

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/19/2008 6:16 PM

What are you going to do? These are sovereign nations here. Korea, India, China, and others, do this for home consumption, and a perceived elevation in world status. I'm sure this Korean girl is a hero at home right now.

The Russians will shoot up anybody, from anywhere, for the money. Did the Russians get the last laugh here? Are they actually making money now from their bankrupt space program? And I do believe their technology is also for sale, (China).

China has a space program, and almost unlimited resources. Vietnam had a satellite launched today.

I think we're seeing another space race, and the world is the player.

There are no controls, they can do whatever they want. Life is cheap. You don't hear about the failures.

__________________
I go into every human encounter expecting to be framed for a crime I didn't commit. Dilbert, 2013
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 5356
Good Answers: 49
#4
In reply to #1

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 2:12 AM

But you do have to give the Devil his due... If it wasn't for those plucky, little Russian space capsules going up and down like the best built Toyotas, the ISS wouldn't exist!!!

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of dementia" - Professor Coriolus
Register to Reply
2
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: El Lago, Texas, USA
Posts: 2640
Good Answers: 65
#2

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/19/2008 10:24 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to my memory that during the past 30 years Russia has sustained no catastrophic spacecraft failures, with no loss of life, while the US has lost two shuttles and 14 crew. And I seem to remember a big chunk of Skylab falling on some Aussie farm. I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1818
Good Answers: 7
#8
In reply to #2

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 6:41 AM

I think you are ill advised on more than one account so I would like to take this opportunity to correct you as you asked.

First of all, I said I know that USA is not accident free, I said however that I would rather put my money on their and our technology for chances of solving the problems.

Secondly the Russian space program has created far more accidents and near misses, some of which could have been catastrophic if not for the correct responses of Canadian and Australian clean up teams, than USA and Europe have together. Don't forget that you might not hear much of their failure as they do not readily share the information.

http://www.space.com/news/spacehistory/dangerous_reentries_000602.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/24/newsid_2523000/2523019.stm

http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/history/shuttle-mir/spacecraft/s-mir-15yrs-main.htm

Mir has had a glorious history and it meant much for Russia, its people and indeed the world. It was however very dangerous and we should pray to whatever god is out there that it did not go wrong any more than it did at times. Even its reentry was out of control and caused many nations to watch out for it on high alert. At one stage the Russians even admitted that they were NOT IN CONTROL!

Almost half the Soyuz reentries missed their calculated point of landing, some by hundreds of miles. Yes USA and Europe may have a higher death toll due to accidents and their accidents were spectacularly displayed on our TV but what would you rather have, the info freely about what went wrong or kept in the dark about what they are up to?

Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Charter Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Charter Member

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The People's Republic of Massachusetts
Posts: 1946
Good Answers: 73
#19
In reply to #2

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 9:37 AM

You should reread what I said. At no point do I say the Russians had a bad space program, only that it was bankrupt, like the rest of the country.

The Russians lost hundreds of people with pad explosions, and I've read the Chinese had a nasty pad explosion not that long ago.

I restate my point, Space is available to the highest bidder.

__________________
I go into every human encounter expecting to be framed for a crime I didn't commit. Dilbert, 2013
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Kiefer OK
Posts: 1326
Good Answers: 22
#3

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 1:14 AM

AFIK, no one has died in space, that is in orbit. One shuttle was lost on launch, the other on landing. And don't forget the 3 Apollo astronauts that died in a fire on the launching pad in a pre-flight test.

We, as a world, seem to have no problem surviving in space. The killers have been getting there or getting back.

__________________
I wonder..... Would Schrödinger's cat play with a ball of string theory?
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Etherville
Posts: 12334
Good Answers: 115
#5

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 2:47 AM

The risk to people on the ground from badly maintained/run aircraft is bigger, so why worry ? The main problem with China shooting up it's satellite was the increase in separate pieces of space junk created - an orbiting screw is worse than a bus because you can't see it coming at you. If it's nuclear material that's of concern, there's far more lost on Earth than they'll ever get into orbit. The USA has even lost entire nuclear weapons. While the Earth is populated by warring countries you may as well buy a stout hat and whistle Dixie.

__________________
For sale - Signature space. Apply on self addressed postcard..
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#6

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 3:07 AM

Your post seems a tad biased.Russia,
Korea, India and China ... unsuitable gear
Two things .... you may wish to consider.

Challenger....Columbia

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1818
Good Answers: 7
#9
In reply to #6

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 6:45 AM

No I don't think so for well grounded reasons Del. Please read my reply no 8 with links to Bhankiii post 2.

There is much more going on than we see on TV.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 749
Good Answers: 12
#7

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 4:10 AM

Not only is the post biased but it ignores the most obvious.

The folks doing the killing and threatening to go nuclear, on Iran, are the Zionist Israeli's and the mad maniacs in this country in the White House and surrounding environs.

It was only a week or so ago that a leading U.S. military commander quit rather than be responsible for any acts against Iran.

The Zionists of course, who are responsible for Deir Yassin and Sabra and Shattilla, are God's Chosen hence they can pull off a nuclear attack, no matter how close in, and never be bothered by the radiation. I wonder what their God might think of poisoning his heaven?

And let's see, the U.S. has not yet used nuclear explosives on Iraq but they have thoroughly poisoned the place, including their own troops, with radioactive "depleted uranium."

I guess politics can't be kept out of even an engineering site as long as there is purportedly poor equipment to attach a nationality too.

j.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1818
Good Answers: 7
#10
In reply to #7

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 6:50 AM

The bane of every rational discussion by open minded people must be the urge to mix different aspects of our lives in to it.

I started to talk about the risk of space craft by outdated technologies. Although I agree fully with your views on the other issues you mentioned, I do not wish to comment on it here in detail as it is totally irrelevant to this thread.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 749
Good Answers: 12
#21
In reply to #10

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 1:21 PM

If I transgress, my apologies. Nonetheless, when you have lived as long as I have, born 1934, you are well aware that all that hardware is up there as a result of the cold war and the development of nuclear.

For me it is impossible to separate the two. For instance..

Virtually all U.S. astronauts come from the military.

Both the Chinese and the U.S. have recently shot down their own satellites, obviously a demonstration of military interest.

The appearing bias in the posts anent national capabilities and possibilities could not be anything but political or at least can be read that way.

But enough!

From the point of view of pure science and engineering, it has been pointed out that starting from the position of little knowledge there are always risks.

Take the recent and ongoing hassle about black holes and the super hadron collider.

Risk, as part of a system of scientific discovery, is always there. Refusing to take those risks, if such a level of consciousness were possible, would have left us back in the caves.

In that regard, to go back to your statement "The bane of every rational discussion by open minded people must be the urge to mix different aspects of our lives in to it," the more we learn about things, the more inextricably intertwined they and our individual lives, which only appear individual, are.

j.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1818
Good Answers: 7
#22
In reply to #21

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 1:52 PM

Again I cannot, and won't, disagree with any of that.

What I do not understand is that now with the European, NASA and the Russian space programs working together, it still seems (I am treading carefully here so be gentle) that missing your landing spot by as much as 475Km, while they cannot make up their mind as weather they over-shot or fell short, is still happening to some of the participants due to failing equipment.

It makes me wonder as to the suitability of old fashioned and over-improved technology (maybe stretched to its capacity due to these modifications) should be relied on nowadays.

It is, unfortunately, true that most, if not all, important technological and scientific breakthroughs happened out of the military's constant drive to superiority. That just makes us a shameful race.

Reality is that they are up there and we must take risks. I like the risks myself as they ground you firmly and makes you stand back for a minute and look at what is going on for real, or at least I think it is supposed to be that way. If there are risks we put up with because of other reasons than technological solutions being unavailable, I think we are losing the plot.

Still, interesting to see a debate about it. It is clear that none of us really know what has gone wrong on either side without them telling us. That is nothing new either.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 5356
Good Answers: 49
#28
In reply to #22

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/28/2008 12:22 AM

My octopus has a space ship in his garden, in the shade.

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of dementia" - Professor Coriolus
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#29
In reply to #21

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

11/15/2009 8:53 PM

think of it this way

the usa has advanced and made mistakes which they learned from

then the usa wants to prevent other nations from advancing that far because we fear that they will make a bigger mistake and worse (not learn from it)

with great power comes great responsability

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#27
In reply to #7

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/27/2008 4:47 PM

Their God is yours too.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Etherville
Posts: 12334
Good Answers: 115
#11

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 7:18 AM

The Americans recently shot one of their own satellites on re-entry, but I don't think at the time they were sure they would succeed.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/30/stateside_spy_sat_splat/

__________________
For sale - Signature space. Apply on self addressed postcard..
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1818
Good Answers: 7
#13
In reply to #11

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 7:38 AM

I think that website is a bit sensational but that is my first impression, I have not read any of there articles previously.

I could not find any of the stuff I read about it back then, and I do have a lot of these that I read as they feed into my mailbox on subscription daily, but I recall that they knew exactly what they were doing, chances of it going wrong and plan B if it did.

They also had high def telescopes trained on it to make sure visually and, proven by the fact we all know about it, freely shared all the info that they had (little footnote needed that I do not always believe all they tell me but I see no reason here to not believe them) It worked out exactly as they told us it would so my hat off to them.

I am not on a single side crusade here, I think the Russians have done tremendous things with the technology they used and compared rate for rate, I even believe they performed better than their counter parts. What remains the question is how long can you keep on trusting on luck. If something is out of control that is exactly what it means. If it than lands 200 to 400 miles away from your landing piont, you better made sure you were in the middle of a 1000 mile desert to start with.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Etherville
Posts: 12334
Good Answers: 115
#16
In reply to #13

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 8:04 AM

I haven't fully read up on it, but I think it went like Plan A - missile, Plan B - another missile, Plan C - another missile. Luckily they got it. There have been previous incidents of satellite re-entry when they've simply said "most of it will burn up, and we think the rest will come down over the sea". Now they have the shooting tested, but I wonder how many times different nations will want to practice that. If it doesn't exist, there should be an international set-up to collect/destroy space junk. Without it we'll end up with some kind of fence-line incident. "Sorry our satellite 'accidentally' came down on your embassy/ Sorry, but the missile went off course/Sorry your rocket hit the spanner we left up there/" etc etc.

It's getting crowded up there;

__________________
For sale - Signature space. Apply on self addressed postcard..
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#17
In reply to #16

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 8:24 AM

Most of that orbitting stuff is lost socks and biros

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Etherville
Posts: 12334
Good Answers: 115
#18
In reply to #17

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 8:32 AM

Dang, I knew they were somewhere ! All my missing lighters are still working and I want them back. I'll kill the bugger who keeps putting my keys up there.

__________________
For sale - Signature space. Apply on self addressed postcard..
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#12

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 7:33 AM

The whole thread could have been a sensible discussion of safety and space technology....

If only you hadn't pointed at individual nations... It's always going to cause a backlash..it's just human feline nature.

Most of the stuff getting chucked up into space is more out of date than your PC...
Except anything Burt Rutan chucks up...now he's an Engineer worth discussing.

Can we just scrub the references to specific nations...and talk engineering?

Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1818
Good Answers: 7
#14
In reply to #12

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 7:44 AM

Point taken so I think that is a good idea. It never was politically motivated so it should not get that way. The best way forward is for all to cooperate which is what we are doing more and more. ISS is a multi national effort and thanks to Soyuz it was kept going while the space shuttle was reviewed.

Remains the question of how long are we going to rely on luck with regards to any of the near misses not ending in enormous disaster.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1818
Good Answers: 7
#20
In reply to #14

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 9:38 AM

Thinking more about this, I actually don't think that we should refrain from saying as it is. It is like the teachers who have been told to stop marking in red as it makes the kid feel useless. No winner as the losers feel inadequate and "participate" rather than compete so there are no winners or seconds.

I do agree it should not end up as a political slogging match each accusing the other as and when they feel like but I still don't see how me pointing out who has old fashioned technology and who wants to be in on the space race is making this thread unacceptable as a discussion.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 5356
Good Answers: 49
#26
In reply to #14

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 11:45 PM

Soyuz is something of a phenomenon. How ever they did it, they got the booster and the capsule formula-tized to a point, where the come of the assembly line like trucks - no surprises! Heck, they're even used a garbage cans for the ISS.

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of dementia" - Professor Coriolus
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1818
Good Answers: 7
#15

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 7:49 AM

Here. is the first (?) report from what it was like for the inhabitants of that last Soyuz.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East of Seattle, Washington state Republic of the 50 states of America
Posts: 2046
Good Answers: 36
#23

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 9:06 PM

When the Shuttle blew up from the solid rocket booster seal failure a friend of mine was on the failure analysis team.

The specs state do not launch if air temp is below X. This was just one of a mountain of specs. The No Go was over ridden by political pressure and ignorant management.

Dwight D. Eisenhower established the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in 1958. He was the head of the CIA before assuming the Presidency as vice president and the NASA is more military than the public is lead to believe.

I had a design for a plasma engine and was looking for an inside sponsor for my design. I could not find one head of the NASA that was not military. I did not feel we needed a better ICBM and my design was intended for manned travel. If one of the private ventures becomes a viable presents in the space race I'll have to dust the plans off and update them.

Also from my studies on the Hubble Telescope lens failure I found out that the military side knew the lens was ground wrong but was forbidden to tell the non military side. I wounder how many times this happens?

I want to retire on the moon or a very large space station in L4.

They need to hurry up so I can.

Brad

__________________
(Larrabee's Law) Half of everything you hear in a classroom is crap. Education is figuring out which half is which.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 100
Good Answers: 1
#24

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 10:22 PM

I wonder if you have lived in any one of the countries which is "seeking glory"? If not start inventing a cleaning machine if the debris begin to fall in the future. I will help you if in case you require it. By the way I live in India.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Columbia City, Indiana, USA
Posts: 832
Good Answers: 96
#25

Re: Space ship in your garden anyone?

04/20/2008 10:59 PM

Ron Cobb, one of my favorite political cartoonists, published these, among many others, in the early 70's ... some things were on our minds then, and I guess remain.

(apologies to Mr. Cobb for posting his copyrighted material, and apologies to anyone this might offend ... just making a point that these issues are not new).

__________________
"Just when I had all the answers, they changed all the questions"
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 29 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

3Doug (1); Anonymous Poster (2); bhankiii (1); Bricktop (2); case491 (8); chandu krishnamurthi (1); DCaD (1); Del the cat (3); Jack Jersawitz (2); Kris (4); U V (1); vermin (3)

Previous in Forum: IMPORTANT - VIRUS ALERT   Next in Forum: mini pelletization plants

Advertisement