Friction Heat for Boiling Water

1) What temperature can be reached by Friction? - about 800deg F as this is the temperature required to start a fire by hand (http://www.primitiveways.com/fire_Baugh.html) 2) More importantly, you need to do an energy calculation as to heat one liter of water one degree C will cost one kcal, which equals 4.18 kJ. This is also The value of the specefic heat of water. The things to remember are: a) Energy Input = Force X Distance. How far will your hand or foot move & what average force will it develop? b) Total Energy Required = Energy used to raise water temperature + Energy lost by radiation + Energy lost by evaporation I will ask you to refer this question to a physics teacher for the rest of the calculations. This is intended as a guide only (I was at school a long time ago!!) Good Luck John A

It's easy to get hot water from friction, a centrifical pump running with the outlet tap turned off will very soon get hot. I have heard of some dairy farms where they turn the pump (insulated, and circulating into an insulated tank) with a windmill and get hot water from the wind in one step.

This is of course the first concern; Input output. Friction is quite easy to generate, given enough energe source of energy, to generate it. An aboundant source like wind( as another reader suggests) is great. Does your geographic location allow for such sources,(Wind, Water falls, etc?)

Sir, I am sorry that I was not able to convey my idea clearly to you all people. What I want to do is not to generate friction by hand but by rotating a gears or pulley by handle and then rotate a disc which would be in contact with the another stationary disc. The heat will be generated as a result of friction. Not what I want is that, the another stationary disc about which I told should be a container a vessel bottom portion so that when the disc is in friction with the vessel bottom the heat generated can be used for boiling the water contained in the vessel. I will be sending the drawing of the device which is in my mind. Please reply me to the address solaank@rediffmail.com so that I can send you the drawing in reply.

Sorry Solaank, did you read my bit about not missing the point at the end of this series? What you want to do is theoretically possible but everything will need to be very well insulated or the heat will leak away faster than you can generate it by hand, also as I pointed out it takes a very great amount of human effort to boil a litre of water, so I don't think your machine would be very well accepted. Anyway it was a good idea of the sort that sometimes leads to important inventions, so keep on inventing. Good luck Andrew

I have a heater design and yes it does create friction heat. I have a container about 2 foot cubed, it uses friction and can achive 280 deg f in about 8 hrs and hold it. with heat switches it is able to turn itself on and off for the heat demand. i am heating my house and water with it.

operating cost is about $ 50.00 us a month

construction cost is about $ 1,000.00 us

JImmy Cherry

please tell me more

Do you have any plan that you would be willing to share , I have a personal shop I would like to try this on . Ken Assink Holland Mi 49424 616 292 3704

Hi Jimmy

Are you still following this group? Im interested in knowing more about what you made and how you made your friction heater. Ive been wanting to make something along these lines for years now. Are you using a cylinder design or discs or what?

Bryan

bbob@catholicexchange.com

Hi there, First things first. Key Words, 'Food Hygene'....self explanatory as you don't want to get ill drinking the hot milk; 'adiabatic'..... impassible to heat etc. 'thermal capacity'....number of heat units needed to raise temperature of a body by one degree; 'thermodynamics'.....Science of relation between heat and other [i.e. mechanical, electrical,etc.] forms of energy; 'THERMOS FLASK' ..... [brand of] vaccuum flask; Kelvin' 'K' scale of temperature starting at absolute zero -273 degrees Celcius; 'HEAT PUMP'.....reversed heat-engine, using mechanical energy to transfer heat to hotter place; 'specific heat'.....heat required to raise temperature of unit mass of a given substance by a given amount[i.e. a degree Celcius for water] 'heat exchange[r]'......[device for] transfer of heat from one medium to another; 'heat resistance' .....self explanatory! 'HEATH ROBINSON'...absurdly ingenious and impracticable in construction [avoid!] When you have looked up this brief list of key words and grasped their meaning and relevance, then we may begin. Examine the construction of a standard 'foot pump' as used to inflate tyres. if possible borrow one and offer to pump up a tyre for someone. Observe how hot the barrel of the foot-pump becomes. This is a result of work done compressing air. It generates a lot of heat. Heat is transferred by 'radiation','conduction'and 'convection'. Investigate how a Thermos Flask minimises these heat losses [or gains if you are keeping ice cream inside] Notice that Thermos Flasks are available in food grade stainless steel, and are now quite reasonably priced. Notice that they have quite a large opening, where the stopper fits. The proposal I would like you to investigate and cost! would involve the fabrication of an 'Air Pump' that could replace the stopper, with the main body of the tubular pump body,{again fabricated from 'food grade' stainless steel.} The hollow tubular 'push-rod' of the pump would of necessity need to allow the compressed air to expell. The air compressing 'piston' attached to this 'push-rod' and acting inside the stainless steel tubular pump body, that would be inserted into the Thermos Flask as a replacement for the regular stopper. Consideration of the mechanical strength of the Thermos flask would need to be evaluated. It may not even be necessary for it to carry any load at all! The foot operated air pump thermos insert/replacement stopper, could be attached to the 'frame' of the 'enlarged' foot-pump apparatus, so that the Thermos Flask was just 'cradled' and so protected from mechanical strains etc.( That bit of kit is going to cost money, you want to keep it in pristine condition,) Check out the 'Carnot Cycle' and the 'Reverse Carnot Cycle' The latter stipulates that 'mechanical' energy is capable of 'pumping heat' You can move heat, effectively obtaining more heat[derived from an external source, NOT CREATED!) than the mere 'work' input. The mathematical formulation uses 'K' i.e. absolute values. You may discover your apparatus, if well designed, is remarkably efficient! At the end of doing a useful job, pumping up, let us say a few Tractor, or Lorry Tyres, you could have a nice refreshing beverage to enjoy. Conclusion; Examine and investigate 'Foot-pumps' Make prototypes in 'Wood' or cheap expendible materials. Try to 'cradle' the precious Thermos Flask. Lastly....Keep the Stopper from the Thermos in a safe place, so it is not lost. If the worst comes to the worst, you will have something to keep ice-cream in. India is a hot country, we pray, God willing, live a long life, and will in time be able to show your grandchildren, your student project, and so never regrett the purchace.

Hi, There,........Re the water/milk boiling, adapted Thermos foot pump............ A separate posting for this most important item on the agenda. SAFETY IS ALWAYS FIRST IN ENGINEERING! Make sure there is a way, that is 'fail-safe'(fails to a 'safe' condition! as boiled milk solidifies! and can block a tiny hole,] that allows steam to escape. This is a crucial element of any design project. Best of luck. Consult with your tutors on this issue!

Guys! I think you are missing the point. He has already designed a machine for turning hand power into kinetic energy. He wants advice on how to turn this kinetic energy into heat through friction. I do not think he is interested in elaborate thermofluid devices.

Solaank, I think that one key item is that your machine should have a very large "flywheel" for conservation of momentum. In order to create enough friction to generate heat you will also may be applying enough friction to stop your machine, which is what you do NOT want to happen.

Think of your machine as a very light car moving slowly. A light tap on the brakes will stop the car quickly, generating very little heat in the brakes. Take this same car (or light truck), fully loaded, with extra people and cargo, possibly even a large trailer (no brakes on the trailer, please!) and go to the top of a mountain. Then go down the mountain road very fast. Apply the brakes now and not much will happen, you will slow down a little bit. It will take a long time to stop the car. During this time heat is building up in the brakes. Because the heat has nowhere to go, the brakes will eventually burn up, or warp and fail.

I suggest you model your friction devices after the automobile disc brake. You might even use a car wheel as the flywheel and brake parts for the frictional components if available. You might devise a lever to close the brake, but be careful to adjust the amount of braking pressure so your wheel will maintain a good speed. You might add a tension spring to the lever to set the braking force to what you want by stretching the spring a fixed amount. Then you will not have to hold the lever by hand.

I think I understand the reason why you want this experiment to succeed and I applaud your efforts. Much of the poorer parts of India and the poorer population are still without or cannot afford electricity or other fuels. Yet, for health reasons, it is very important to boil water and milk before drinking. If a simple device could be designed and mass-produced to boil limited amounts of water/milk, using only human muscle power, it would solve a major health problem in India, am I right?

Unfortunately, one problem with generating heat by friction is wear. Your frictional parts may be expensive and wear out too quickly for the machine to be effective. Perhaps a thermofluid device (genating heat through applying pressure to air or another fluid) might be more effective after all.

I have sent you an e-mail. If you respond and send your drawing I may be able to help a little more.

Well we're not exactly missing the point, we just jumped over a few problems without mentioning them. Your steel brake drum has a specific heat around 500 J, water is about 8 times this at 4.186 kJ, so while its easy to get steel hot with a hand turned friction device, water takes a lot more sweat. To heat your litre of water from 30 deg C to boiling at 100 C takes around 300 kJ or more depending on your efficiency. That's equivalent to a 70 kg person running up a 437 m ladder, not a small climb. You can do it by turning a handle and you will get fit but tired making tea this way. Using the wind or the sun is a better option even if you're not very wealthy because you'll also eat a lot more rice.

I never said it would be easy. I think he knows it would be hard work. I don't think anyone ever accused the people of India of being afraid of a little hard work. What we here in the US or others in Europe or other "consumer societies" would accept or not accept is very different from what people might accept or not accept in a society which is attempting to bootstrap a large portion of its society out of poverty and the accompanying physical and social ills.

However, a frictional device might be simple enough to construct to prove a point as a science/engineering experiment. Quite often experimental prototypes do not resemble the final design at all, but it is a start. Your point about insulation is well taken. The entire heat transfer device should be designed for maximum efficiency and very little heat loss.
This could include:

1. Using a thin metal container (aluminum?) to boil the water that is insulated on all sides except where it makes contact with the "heating pad".

2. Using copper to transfer the heat because of its excellent conduction properties.

3. Insulating the frictional device so that heat is directed to the desired transfer point and not lost "out the back end", etc.

Best of luck with your endeavor, Solaank!

I appreciate your good intentions, however I don't think its fair to mislead someone about reality. It seems to me that the amount of human energy required to boil a litre of water by turning a handle is just out of all proportion to the benefit, particularly if you lack the need to expend energy for health reasons as people in affluent economies tend to do. In any case I'm somewhat doubtful that you could insulate the appliance adequately so that you ever managed to get the water to boil. At higher temperatures the heat would likely leak away faster than you could create it, unless there was some high tek insulating gear.

Andrew,

Have you ever heard the phrase, "You never know until you try"? Here in the U.S. we have another saying, "It'll never fly, Orville!"

Whoever said the goal was to boil one liter of water anyway? I just re-read all of the posts by Solaank and he never specified a volume. It could be a teaspoon or a gallon. I would think that a single cup of drinking water might be practical. Also, boiled water to mix baby formula is very important, and a baby bottle has a relatively small volume.

"I'm somewhat doubtful..."
"...would likely leak away..."

Guesswork and negativity, two arch-enemies of progress. What can it hurt for Solaank to try, and then fail? At least he should learn something in the process. How many failed experiments did Thomas Edison have before he found the right combination to produce sustained electric light? Literally thousands! Even if he is only able to boil a teaspoon of water in a thimble, it would still prove a point.

Well I admire your persistance and enthusiasm! I guess being a farmer trying to cope with a deteriorating environment caused by years of guess work and misplaced optimism, I am trying to be more objective. But trying to be objective doesn't always work. I was overawed by the theoretical 400 plus metre/kgs of work needed to boil a litre of water, thinking in terms of climbing a 400 m hill, which I have outside my front door. But climbing isn't the most efficient way for a human to work. Now I understand that on a cycle machine a fit human might be able to generate perhaps 125 watts for a reasonable time. Floyd Landis could do better! Anyway that will boil your litre in under an hour, so you can scale back from that to your baby bottle. However I did also read that turning a handle is considerably less productive than cycling with the legs. I'd like to see someone make it just for the demonstration of energy density in hot water.

Correction 400 plus metres for a 70 kg person, ie 29,900 metre/kgs boils a litre from 30 deg C

Yes, of course cycling is more efficient, but what if the poor Indian family that would use a human-powered boiler cannot afford a bicycle? Without hearing from Solaank we cannot know whether any of this makes sense in his application.

Anyway, I think we have just about done this thread to death anyway.

Hi Solaank. I did a similar project at school and it worked without alot of efford. If you are interested in my design and want to send your design for advise, please feel free. elvera@psphoto.co.za

In case anyone wants to know, go to the ASME website. Then look for the 2007 student design competition.

Boiling water by mechanical means is something desireable.

hello sir

i am sivakumar,doing final year production in coimbatore,tamilnadu.this mail is regarding u'r title named "friction heat for boiling water"

i have read u'r title on producing heat by friction which is sufficient

for bringing water to its boiling point without any external energy

I am very much interested on the topic frictional heat and i want to know about u'r project in detail

So please notify me about u'r project in detail as soon as u see this mail

thanking u

with regards

siva

Yes I have done this but by machinical means only. I have drawings and have done 3 sucessful applications. How ever you can do it for free it is a matter of design with gearing so if you are doing it mannually you need to get the gearing like that of a milk machine seperator with centrifical drive it should be no problem.

Terry

mrfixall.com

It would be a lot more efficient to just start a fire and boil it, especially in third world countries with no access to electricity (your target demographic I'm assuming), but its a brilliant idea nonetheless.

Did you ever get anywhere on this project as I'm thinking about the same design concept and just now found your mail. My email is techasso@epix.net

Okay! SO...approximately 4 years down the road, what have you come up with for a friction heat generator?

I wonder if your design is like mine. I still have to do further research into optimal friction points. Even if the device can't boil water, it will be able to heat a sizeable room. In time, I'll have more complex versions that charge batteries, drive saws, etc. Right now, I'm just wanting a portable device that generates a significant amount of thermal energy.

The world needs a heater that doesn't consume fuel other than the mechanical energy put into it.

Hello yes. Tell me more.

I too am interested in a human powered friction-based heat generator. I have no drawings at this time.

I can describe the general form and function, but no details on the specific pieces to be used.

In my system, the energy is put into the friction heat generating box by way of a lever. Perhaps the lever is operated by hand, or by foot. In any case, the energy is loaded into a spring similar to the old springs used in early record players. There would be some kind of power metering system to control how much energy the spring released over time. Some versions might include a flywheel.

The device is fairly small, being approximately 3 Ft per side and perhaps 4 Ft. tall. It would be more or less portable.

Of course the questions yet remain: 1. Just how much energy are we potentially dealing with here?2. Is the spring I have in mind available? Is the material needed for the friction points already in existence?

I of course want to use as much 'off the shelf' parts as I possibly can. I want the device to be easy to use and nearly as easy to construct. These should be everywhere, for mountain climbers, villages, emergency heat needs, etc.

Boiling water using friction from hand or pedal power does seem a bit too difficult for one person, I wonder if there could be a device for harnessing the energy of 5 or 10 people at the same time. This might make sense where labour is abundant but other resources are not.

I don't know if 5 or 10 people could produce a practical amount of boiled, drinking water, they might only produce enough for a few people, also I suppose they might drink more water doing the work than they produce.

I really like the idea of friction for heat though, simple & efficent.

-David

My device would store up energy by way of a serious metal/composite spring. There are so many variables like the friction surfaces to be used, how much torque is required, etc, etc.

The idea of community deposited energy is reasonable. I still have 'lone-ranger-itis'. I want to see a device that one person could operate fully.

It would be interesting if putting energy into the device could be made fun, like those carousel water pumps.

carousel water pump

have been thinking of friction heat for 25 years I was working on a hot oil boiler system that heated the # 10 weight oil to 2,500 degrees but before we ran the gas pipe to the boiler we pumped the oil through orfice flanges and the pipes got so hot it was to hot to touch hot water coil or baseborad heat is not that hot maybe some thing can be pumped with a multi stage pump with friction fluidynamics can be a new consept

Your concept with the oil is pretty cool.

I myself am looking for a much simpler system that uses human energy to cause the torque causing the friction and heat. I'm looking for the bare bones Model A version. I want a unit that can be rolled/carried into the hut/cave/mountain base, etc., cranked up and let it loose. Down the road I'll find a workshop and throw one together.

Good luck on your further research.

Hi....

Please refer the post of Turbine Generator where I have posted the sketch of my concept machine for the friction heat water heater.

I invite, further discussion from you all.

Hello, solaank -

I'm having great difficulty finding the friction heater you mentioned. There are numerous listings under 'Turbine Generator'.

I would like to see what you have a sketch of, but my time is precious and I can't spend the day hunting for your sketch of concept. How about finding it and posting the URL of it? Thanks. [Innocentbystander/also posting, in some instances, as 'anonymous'.]

Hi all....

Sorry I could not reply to all your post which you all have been sending on this topic since 2007. I got lost in my work. Today after a long time when I was curious to know about my Friction water heater project on Google, I came across these posts.

I am really very much happy and thankful to you all for your replies and discussions...

I am also sorry as I could not send you the concept drawing of my Machine. As I have lost my drawings, I am showing you all the handmade drawing of the conceptual machine. I invite you all for the further discussions on the drawing and feasibility of the concept.

I think the basic concept you show us is nice.

What I have in mind is somewhat like yours only it uses a spring to store energy and a clutch to disengage the spinning portion from the static portion.

My device would be very self contained in a box that could theoretically be taken into villages, mountain camp sites, emergency sites, etc.

The friction would take place between two elements very near the top of the box.

Friction would not take place on a vessel. A pan or vessel would sit on top of the area where the two elements rub against each other. The vessel in my design would only get the heat from radiation, contact with the top most (static) element and through convection of hot air rising from the friction point.

The device could heat water, but it could also be used to heat the air of a room or small building.

Hi guys! My first post on this website. Did not want to start new thread. I'm product design student working on my project - friction heater for elder people in UK. I always have had interest in mechanical engineering however I do not have any special education. My goal is to design simple and compact device to warm up elder people. According to statistics nearly 200,000 people died in their houses in UK during 2012 winter. The reason I've chosen friction method is as I know elder people have lack of movement and most of them have joints problems, so I thought about resolving two problems in the same time: to warm up their bodies and to generate some heat from physical exercise. So far I came up with following idea: sphere made out of copper filled with water, the sphere is divided in two parts there is something (two sticks? two disks?) in the middle that through friction will heat up the water that later will warm up user's hands. My question is: could I use wood and metal between this two parts to heat up the water inside? Will it be efficient enough or my users will die trying to get warm? I'm sorry if I confused you with my English if you did not understand something please ask.

Welcome, and bravo on your quest(s).

The idea of a more or less portable space/X heater that does not require fuel to burn or remove electrons from.

My idea was for a very sturdy wooden frame (to save some weight)

Your idea was first to make humans comfortable by putting them in a space with a device that could, through friction, heat.

I wonder how small a friction heating device could be made that would still be useful to humans. What if one could be made into a ball (with a wind up spring friction system) so that one could put the heater in pocket?

I appreciate the several mechanical engineers, physicists and tinkerers that have tried to give me a sense of the hill I'm trying to climb.
Unfortunately, their various formulas referring to Sade Carnot and the various laws of entropy just don't work for me.

There's a famous saying from some inventor who was working with tungsten for a lighting filament. He said that if he had fully studied how difficult his task was, he wouldn't have tried it (and found the answer).

I'd like to design/invent at least one truly useful device.
I think a friction heater using a large wind-up spring (and perhaps a serious flywheel) could save lives.

The design I have in mind would be sturdy, bulletproof. Throw it in the river, let it dry and it's ready to go.

From a basic success, one could evolve the device to serve more purposes, like charging radios, phones, etc.

Good journey