Browns Gas for Increased Fuel Efficiency, True?

"And when such claims are extraordinary, that is, revolutionary in their implications for established scientific generalizations already accumulated and verified, we must demand extraordinary proof." - Marcello Truzzi

I'm still waiting for independant verification from any legitimate testing facility or organization to say these work safely and effectively. It hasn't come yet and I'm not holding my breath.

Let's look at this another way. General Motors lost $3.3 billion (USD) in the 1st Q 2008. Don't you think if this technology worked, they'd be willing to spend billions to buy the technology from someone and turn their company around? If you're losing that kind of money every 3 months, wouldn't it make sense to buy the patent for/invest a few billion into a product that if it works as advertised, would be desired by every driver on the planet.

It's sad how desperate we are to believe anything just because the price of gas has gone up $1.50 in the last few years.

Thanks for the comment.

The problem I have is that I cant get any verification from someone who has either investigated or tried it. I am looking for facts.

Your point about GM is well taken, however, having spent 20+ years in the automotive industry, it wouldn't be the first time I saw a large OEM ignore a potential technology that could rescue them. It's is also non patentable.

My research shows its working as a base for some other technologies. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Brown%27s_Gas#Companies Obviously I am still looking for proof.

My questions still stands. Has anyone tried it or researched this?

The point about verification is key. If you just skim the surface, you'll find plenty of folks who will claim that it works, but none of the claims stand up to scrutiny. Dennis Lee has a long criminal history and the Jeffotto.com has a lot of odd products and religious quackery associations. Not to mention that Otto challenged critics to prove his product wrong, and when challengers appeared, he stopped answering emails.

With these kind of champions, and of course, the understood laws of the universe, one must remain very skeptical about hho, hafc, and picc products.

look, there is a search function on this board. Use it. You'll find hundreds of posts. The FTC is working on shutting this fraud down. Everytime you see a link say HHO, browns gas etc.. is great, turn them in and protect people from fraud, get involved!

If I see a posters that defends the fraud, I send their info to the FTC.

vicini,

I think you will recall about a month ago, an announcement on this site, in the new technologies section, of a very informal "conference" on alternative energy at Jarboe's Mill in Charlotte Hall, MD. Member RCBondSR, who posted the announcement was derided mercilessly by several people for his consideration.

I was most impressed with and inspired by the comment by Member chandu krishnamurthi who noted: "Your comments would have made meaningful sense to hundred of forum members if you had sent them after witnessing the meet."

I went to the conference: spent two days there. I found the alternative energy adherents were loosely in two groups. There was a merchant group, and a tinkerer group. The merchants included purveyors of wind mills, solar panels and collectors, water fuel devices and others. I spent most of my time with the Tinkerer group.

The Tinkerer group was there primarily to demonstrate what they had done and to learn from the experience of others. Most had studied carefully and were very conversant in the technology they brought.

I will skip the ones I could not comprehend. There were some. Many others were actually instructive.

(Mr. James Robey represented the WaterFuelMuseum.org from Kentucky. He was particularly conversant in the history of water-fueled cars, which date back to the 1800s.)

One gentleman arrived in an electric car he had designed and built by hand, from a nice looking red Mercedes. Quite impressive. Based on a fork lift motor. He drove it in from Annapolis and drove it back as well. It had exceptional acceleration. Here is a picture under the hood.

Most, by far, were using electrolyzed water as a booster for the spark ignition engines of their vehicle. Most were comparing and contrasting designs and materials in an effort to optimize. They measured voltages, current and gas flow rates. It was an exceptionally enthusiastic group.

One was not really there to learn from anybody, but really just to show off. He was retired Navy Chief Petty Officer (E-7) driving a VERY large pickup with a HUGE V-8. The truck was clearly important to him. He had studied the "hydrox" booster technology and simplified it to its most basic form. He had bottles that were maybe a liter each. The cap on the bottle was pierced by two electrodes - each just two wires twisted together, and then coiled in a vertical helix, mutually opposed and not touching. (The electrolyte was potassium something = hydroxide probably. My notes are not legible at that part.) This was his electrolysis chamber. He ran a wire from his fuse panel (5 amp) to six of these bottles wired in parallel. It generated 5 to 6 liters per minute of hydrogen/oxygen gas. His onboard computer indicated fuel consumption rate (mpg) and he kept records of fuel purchases and mileage. His result were impressive and undeniable. (Normal was 10 mpg. With booster running his records indicated a best rate at 18 mpg. Best I saw at the convention.) He drove up from Virginia Beach.

Now, I am not a mechanic, but combustion engineering is part of my professional training and experience. I understand what I am looking at in these cars. I am at a loss to explain it sometimes, but I have every reason to believe that it works.

I drive very conservatively a Toyota Camry. I get 30 mpg, which pleases me. Still, I intend to emulate the Chief and see if it works for me with my Camry, as well. (As soon as I get around to it.)

Best Regards.

BTW: FTC Bureau of Consumer Protection - Consumer Information

cute story, but its just a story....

The truck example is interesting in that it sounds good on the surface but only if you do not look at it too closely. Let's do some math on this. If this guy drives his truck for an hour at 60mph he is saying that before improvements he was burning about 6 gallons of gas at 125,000BTUs per gallon. That works our to a total of 750,000BTUs for his trip. Post HHO generator he was burning 3.3333 gallons to make the trip or the equivalent of 416662.5 BTUs. WOW that is great, it is a savings of roughly 333337.5 BTUs of gasoline. At the same time his generator is pumping out 6 liters of hydrogen per minute which yields 360 liters over the course of an hour. As there are 9.54 BTUs contained in a liter of hydrogen that means his generator is producing 3434.4 BTUs. Where are the other 3329903.1 BTUs coming from in this transaction. Unless he was driving down hill with a heavy load this does not work out by a longshot. Think about it.

Bob Ferris

Thanks, that makes a great deal of sense!

Hello bwire

from me

Thank you for the definitive quotation, to which the believers in "Fuel Savings using Brown's Gas" should be referred.

Unfortunately, even after reading that, they will neither understand, nor believe it.

Sadly there are still the hopeful tinkerers, opportunistic swindlers, simply credulous and plain foolish, who fondly believe in better than a perpetual motion machine.

Yes, these people believe that somehow, against all Laws of Physics, Heat Engines, Electrolysis, Conservation of Energy, and others, that it is possible to obtain 4 or more units of energy, from 1 unit of energy input, without matter being destroyed in that "process".

These 'believers in the esoteric", prefer to "prove" the processes, with "tales and Stories", hearsay, "how my friend got huge mileages in his Kenworth 189 wheeler truck, on just the smell of an oily rag" and the like.

Definitive properly laboratory tests are never available, because those tests, if properly supervised and witnessed, would prove that you cannot obtain something from nothing, except by a miracle.

Kind Regards....

GA.

My mind is made up. Don't try to confuse me with facts.

In another thread, I posted the response below. (The link "Finally a great..." provides test results in which the promoter claims to prove that he gets a huge efficiency increase with "HHO", but shows that his scooter runs for exactly the same amount of time, at full throttle, over the same course, with and without "HHO". It's not quite a dyno, but it is close. BTW, there is a dyno test coming up soon from WPTV to make amends for a hopelessly flawed one they did in May on the Hydro 4000. That test is referenced in the "Saving MPG with..." link below)

In short, it's a scam. The worst promoters (some making large amounts of money) have a history of fraud, and know full well that the systems do not work as advertised, in other words, to improve fuel efficiency. Many others are unwittingly promoting the technology in the same way that people who believe in fuel line magnets will write testimonials. The EPA has tested fuel line magnets, and found that they act exactly as theory would predict -- they have no effect at all on the fuel or on fuel efficiency. Popular Mechanics tested several such devices, and found they all had no effect, or reduced efficiency -- exactly as would be predicted by conventional science.

Some links to look at:

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveonaCar/GasSavingDevicesMostlyAScam.aspx

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/22670/Finally-A-Great-HHO-test-Run-your-car-on-water

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/16914/HHO

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/21465/Saving-MPG-with-Brown-Gas-Generator

Of course, you can make one of these yourself for very little money. If you are so inclined, you can do your own experimentation.

__________________

My father and i have been getting into this lately,my father has a system on his car and is working the bugs out,he is getting better MPG,I think ill wait and see how his car does over time.the idea seems to make sense.i guess i just dont drive enough to really worry about mpg so much.

a fool and his money are soon parted