Bicycle-Propeller Power transfer

Are you talking watercraft, aircraft or what? More details will yield better results. I have some ideas on both counts.

I'm talking about a live-aboard watercraft (very light of course) which would be propelled by one or two persons pedalling, possibly augmented by a simple sail or kite, when conditions are favorable.

why the obsession with inefficient energy transfer?

I must protest! Who has given >>Good<< score for this? This is NOT answer AT ALL!

First of all, You seems to not understand question! I would say You have voted for Yourself?

He (post #2) has not been rated at all as far as I can see and he cannot give himself points anyway.....did you make a mistake and mean someone else???

I still feel that he is still right though, a propeller on a land based vehicle is MOST inefficient!!

What?? Don't you know... I understand EVERYTHING!!!

People tend to find my short answers lacking depth.. I find them rather refreshing..

Now give me that good answer you obviously thought I deserve.

Who needs to shout "CLEAR!" before taking off on a noisy bike that provides no physical exercise and is about as green as a ladle of pitch?

sounds great!... but not for me... maybe when I was about 15..

I agree, but I want a human-power live-aboard watercraft, but I have a bad shoulder so I cannot row (for long) and I want to face the direction in which I am travelling. I'm open to other ideas :>)

You might look for information on modern large vessel propellers and fashion yours after them.

Propellers I'm not worried about; it's the mechanial energy transfer from a vertical-rotary motion, to a propeller.

If I understand you correctly, you want to drive a push bike with a propeller.

My only question is why? That would be so inefficient and wasteful of energy.

Can you give a reason as to why this method is preferred by you, maybe we can put you in a better position or give you a better idea......

The only reason that aircraft and ships use propellers, is because they are not close enough to solid land that a driven wheel can be used.......there has never been a land based vehicle that has ever been efficiently driven by such a method as you propose.

There again, if you do not mind the loss of efficiency, the amounts of energy (fuel) required and the need for a motor several times more powerful than if it was connected to road wheels, then please ignore me completely.....

Everybody's getting the gist of my query wrong. I'm looking to design a live-aboard boat for coastal cruising that is propelled by recumbent bicyclists (since my legs are about the only extremities that don't have joint problems) and I want to face in the direction I'm travelling, vs. backwards as in rowing.

Honored sir,

I have seen in my country someone used ordinary bycicle for riding on water and mounted it on frame connecting two sailingboards, catamaran style. Instead front wheel smaller board with vertical fin facing down was fixed for steering. Instead of going to back wheel that was removed, chain was made longer and used to turn another, smaller bycicle wheel that was adopted to have paddles fixed on its frame in place of rubber tire. That is all :-)) No need for complications with propeler.......

I was considering constructing something like this, but I live far from sea and have no money since I am retired......

Regards, Marijan Pollak

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Aeronautical_Society

Sounds interesting. Could you supply simple sketch?

I cannot.... However, this is not big feat for any engineer worth his salt :-)) Main parts one can buy or use is from old bycicles, and two sailing boards. On each board should be at least 2 legs ending in plates with 4 (or more) screw holes for safe fixing legs on sailing board. All legs should be fixed to eliptic frame (or just square one, but eliptic would be looking nicer, even if less easy to do) that in turn has to have means to fix rear wheel holder (something like axle of rear wheel so one can just screw on in place of rear wheel) and on front side You could use front part of another bycicle, just turned upside down + frontside back and welded on plate welded on eliptic / square frame, and supported to be verticall by two right angle triangle frames....

Last part I allready described, and could be backside of bycicle frame, (which would remain when You cut off and fix frontside for steering system ) with smaller wheel adopted by removing tire and fixing paddles on tire frame, which is actually hardest thing to do in this project. Chain could be enlongated to reach its naturall place for turning wheel with paddles...... It is done by taking two chains and conecting their ends together to form one bigger chain, quite simple, no? Another problem would be steering system, but it could be done with a bycicle wheel also, provided it is of type where wires are enclosed from both sides by plastic cover, like in some racing bikes, to make less friction of wheel with air.... Even verticall plate would be fine, but it could cause accidents, so if You run over somebody then it would better be with something round, no? Speed can be regulated with existing system from bycicle, or if You set just one speed system as more reliable, then speed depend on your legs, of course!

I hope that helps, and if You start production, then I would expect some donation for this poor engineer :-)) In that case my address is:

Marijan Pollak

Baboniceva ulica 34

Zagreb 10 000 HR

Republic of Croatia,

EUROPE

Haven't got that far yet; I want a very small live-aboard coastal cruising craft that I can propel by pedalling. Obviously this is quite a departure from pedal-kayaks and all the other items mentioned in this string. I'm not talking about going anywhere fast, but I would like to design some craft that is leg powered and where I can face the direction I'm travelling.

Of course, the reason pedal powered boats are kayak size is that only a small boat can be realistically powered by one or two people pedaling. The Hydrobike people claim to have the most efficient pedal to propeller system. One person could expect to produce about 1/8 hp (90 watts) via pedaling. Two people could produce about 1/4. About 1/2 of that would be transfered to forward thrust. Under many conditions this little power in a boat large enough for weekending would be unsafe -- you would be unable to prevent the boat from being blown into rocks, other boats, etc. But if you were careful, you could use the pedal propulsion system as one uses oars on a sailboat -- you sail everywhere, and only use the pedals in a flat calm. I use my own sailboat this way, sailing right up to the dock, unless I am completely becalmed. My sailboat is small (18') and I would never be able to paddle, row or pedal it into any sort of breeze.

Unless you are insisting on reinventing the wheel, or in this case the propeller, there are many people who have designed human powered watercraft, using bicycle (both upright and recumbent) drive trains powering propellers. It is a sub-hobby of the human powered vehicle hobby, which also include human powered wheeled craft (bikes and trikes of various designed), human powered aircraft, human powered rail vehicles (that run on abandoned railroad tracks), and probably others. Anyway, here are a few starting links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-powered_transport

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-powered_hydrofoil

This is a great video of an HPV boat race showing all kinds of interesting designs (wow those hydrofoils are fast!):

John Howard, a former Olympic cyclist, designed a human powered boat and set an American Canoe 24 hour record of something like 125 miles. I used to know him in San Diego.

Hope that helps,

Barclay

who rides a recumbent bike (on land) a hundred miles a week or so

Thanks. It looks like I'm going to need to, in some part, invent something, because I'm talking about a small live-aboard craft, not a toy to use on a sunny day. But these are all good ideas.

Mr. Klutz, You cannot row in oceangoing craft, and if You think You would be traveling by using pedals, then think again unless You dont mind going S L O W L Y.

As someone suggested, You would better use sail as main power, and at that, I would vote for propeler sail, like in movie >>Water World<< with Kevin Kostner.

This would be ideal since You need not set sails, and because with such sail one can go even againest wind........

Otherwise, somebody posted picture of pedal propeled (literaly) system with propeler that IMHO could be adopted to push larger vessel, but I think You need larger propeler also............. However, dont expect blazing speed :-)) even if 4 people would be pedaling! Perhaps also, different propeling system would be more effective, because if propeler is most effective then fishes would have them, too!

I was considering a system that would have two fins like frogmen fins that would be mechanicaly pushed up and down alternatively, or one big fin like they use for Delphinism swiming, with two legs going into one big fin...... But, such a big fin would better go left right instead of up down, just like fishes use tail as main thrust...

Whichewer way in the end You intend to propell Yourself in this ocean cruiser, You would be wise to use big and heawy wheel positioned upright to store and evenly release kinetic energy, be it from propeler sail or from bycicle pedaling, and in case there would be two or more pedalists, there would be need for independent connection of transmision system to turn this wheel, but there also would system with many different speeds, like in racing bike, come handy while big wheel store energy slowly faster and faster rotating......... If You use Tandem Bike, (there is even >>recumbent<< one) then there is problem of multiple pedal pushers allready solved..........but I dont know if they have posibility to use various speeds also.

What bothers me with recumbent bike is that chain goes up and in front first, then back, for me this is not estethicall nor practicall, and mostly one have to hold legs higher than body... :-((

Hope my thinking would help!

I do beg to differ on your information; the Pacific has been crossed at least twice and the Atlantic numberous times by folks on live-aboard oar-powered craft. If I could row and still face forward, I would opt for that, but I think that would be less efficient than the bicycle idea. I happen to want to try and build something I can power myself, and use the sail sometimes, instead of the other way around. Thanks for your thoughts.

It IS true that some crackpots went on ocean with kayak and survived, but I would guess on every such lucky person comes thousand that never reached other side or come back... But I tried to find more details about those who suceeded and cannot get it either as >>oaring across ocean<< nor as >>paddling across ocean<< on Google, and surely I would not think for a second to use ours or paddles as main ship means for propeling.... But, its Your life You would be gambling. Consider also, even if You have 4 persons pedaling, even with best propeler it would go slow, which means more days on sea, and one have to carry food and even water in quantity for each person and some reserves in case weather force you to detour.....

Anyway, Bon Voayage!

You are probably familiar with the Atlantic Rowing Challenge. I had an opportunity to build one of these boats for a team (after they had a disappointing experience with an ostensibly professional boat builder) but was busy with my own project, so declined. I am reasonably careful in building such things, and that is all you would need to be in building your own. (The "pros" were, sad to use the term, klutzes.)

For easiest propulsion you would want something that looks like a rowing shell -- many of which are so narrow the the rowers butt cannot fit inside. Unfortunately, such a shape has no stability (you have to use the oars to keep it upright), and had no space for supplies, etc. The ARC boat shape has had a lot of thought behind it and is probably a good compromise.

For coastal cruising, the boat could be much smaller, and therefore easier to propel. Weather protection would not need to be so robust, so the superstructure could be a tent which you would erect at night. You'd then avoid the windage of a permanent superstructure during the day. The people at Marine Concepts make some very small sailboats that are along these lines.

Have fun.

"All race entrants are required to use exactly the same boat design to ensure fairness" [ARC]

I hate .. loath.. abhor.. whatever this line.. .. why let the engineering be left... dead in the water..

..I like the project the more I hear.. even it it's bit by bit.. .. I want to build live on pedal trikes. (and others) .. i mean.. i will.

..what type of anchor would you use .. You must have something in mind if you stay coastal while you sleep? what is small, light and effective?

The Fortress anchors are the same shape as a Danforth, but built in high strength aluminum. They are hard to beat for good holding power but light weight.

There are trade-offs with one design formulas. I personally like one design racing in sailing, because then the winner is more likely to be the better sailor, rather than the sailor with the biggest budget. I once raced in a fleet in which some people would spend as much on sails each year as I spent to buy my entire boat. I later sailed in a J-24 fleet (reasonably strict one design) where I learned much more and had more fun.

But then the development classes (where almost anything goes with the boat design and construction) can be fun too...

how long do you plan to live aboard?. and where would you be going?

curious? ho many sq ft? amenities?

If you are set on doing this, maybe this will help. At the end of the video, it tells you where you can get plans to build it too....

PropellerBike

Thanks.

This site has a jet version of what you want. Perhaps you would like to go with something a little more modern than a propellor! If you combine the two pictures on teh title page I think you will have a recumbant bike! One unit on each side should give you 600lbs thrust for takeoff - er I mean accelerating at the lights....

http://www.unitednuclear.com/jetplans.htm

Actually I was serious about the Jet concept. Fantasy site or not I know of people who have built Gas Turbines from Turbo chargers; in fact, GE did it in the twenties and thirties as a test rig for there turbos (they were the only manufacturer then I think). I think it would be a lot safer than a propellor wissing around in the open.

Just to clarify your question: in many English speaking parts of the world "small craft" means a small boat. The propeller propulsion system would be expected to be an ordinary underwater propeller, unless we have information to the contrary. (Both techniques are used, but an air propeller must be quite large.) (Some people seem to think you are planning a land vehicle, for which "small craft" would be rather unusual terminology.)

see:

http://www.pedalpro.com/

http://www.humanpoweredboats.com/

There are several conversion kits, as well and numerous manufactured boats using pedal power. One pretty efficient craft that uses an unusual propeller is the Hobie Mirage:

http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaking/models_mirage.html

I'm looking to design a ocean-going live-aboard craft with two positions.

Sorry I overlooked that detail about >>recumbent<< bycicle, but then this bycicle also could be adopted with paddles instead rubbers on both wheels in front ( Ups! That would be a trycicle! ) :-)) Now, WHY >>recumbent<< bycicle? Is it because of seat? I also assumed You want propeler in the water, not for the air........

Why dont You comment on postings, cant You see people are confused about what You want? It has somehow got out of hand as some are making jokes about this :-((

You wrote (quite correctly too!):-

Why don't You comment on postings, cant You see people are confused about what You want? It has somehow got out of hand as some are making jokes about this :-((

Firstly, this is typical CR4, the original poster goes on holiday for 4 weeks and does not bother to read what he started.....

Secondly, his name is Klutz, which means quite a lot it would appear:-

Lump, Lubber, Stumblebum, Lummox......which sounds about right from my point of view......Maybe he intended it that way, who knows?

Either way its got completely boring so I am unsubscribing right now, byeee....

Sorry for the confusion. I want to design a (small) live-aboard board that is propelled by one or two people facing forward pedalling :>)

Oh... why didn't you say so?

Thanks for clearing up all the confusion.