why I'm pissed

I feel the same way. There have been some very ignorant questions posted!

Well, on the bright side, ignorance is better than stupidity!

I doubt if you'll find a forum on the web that does not eventually have this problem. One must just take some time to spot the good and ignore the rest. IMO, it is still much better than no forum, or a heavily moderated forum.

Actually I was a little surprised (based on my previous experience with other sites and user groups) that the ratio of (people that can't use the internet search function + general users with sub standard knowledge asking stupid questions + people that really should have been paying attention in high school and college) to actual users with problems or comments, is quite low. Spam and, plain email garbage also appear to be consistently low. Also, given the previous structure of the site, this made ignoring them relatively simple (Ahhh, a fool, avert thy eyes).

Perhaps simple things such as catalogue and internet search training should be included in schools.

In the end, perhaps this gradual decline in knowledge and training of the new generation is the problem (we had a trainee engineer here once that did not even know how to operate simple hand tools). Should we perhaps lower our own expectations of others?

Not entirely sure where I am going with all of this (although I do agree with you about people asking about homework problems (such as where to even begin!). Pay attention in class is all I have to say on the matter.

Still having some teething issues with the new site, but that's how it is with change.

"In the end, don't stress (at least that's what everyone tells me!).....I really should take their advice one day"

i agree :) (there, i feel better too)

Don't get yourself down. If we ignore the really stupid posts/questions, people often get the message. The more we respond,...well you can figure out what happens next.

I have been a member of another engineering forum for over 4 years, and have never seen more than 3 or 4 "way out posts" that had nothing to do with the topics. The regular forum members were quick to respond, and posters got the message that they should stick to the subject lines.

the reality that someone pisses you off should be gratifying. if you need counseling talk to us freely but intellegently. blackhawk44

Quite honestly I believe that the only stupid question is one not asked. Not everyone can be as smart as you. Show some compassion. Those people you speak about may very well be able to answer one of your very smart questions with an off the wall idea that you couldn't see because of your formal training. Just a thought.

I hope that I am not one who degrades the forum.

I am not an engineer, but someone who loves to learn about physics and engineering and apply this knowledge in my projects and my classroom. Being trained in physics, I often have theory knowledge, but not the application that comes through engineering training. My practical experience comes from helping my father, an engineer, with his projects and my own obsession with building things.

As a teacher, I am well aquainted with "stupid" questions. I think that anyone who has a question should first seek the answer through study before asking the question. This process not only cements the answer in the questioner's mind, but it also takes the questioner on a journey where a great amount of knowledge is gained aside from the original question. So I would definitely encourage the those with questions to seek the answer before asking.

Inspite of the occasional post that I must disregard, I love this site as it challenges me to think about things that I would not ordinarily think about. Furthermore, It helps me to keep my skills sharp. I love being able to associate with genious everyday. I appreciate those of you from whose intellegence I glean .

As for those who ask about homework questions...shame on you.

"If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." -Newton

In a nother forum I am part of, there is the constant irritant that you mention. We use some rather blunt acronyms such as RTFM and STFW. "Google is your friend" is another favorite.

In my opinion, there is a fairly obvious line between those looking to have thier work done for them and those that are truely having problems finding help. My biggest aggrivation is when people don't even try, or try once and give up and just skip to having it spoon fed to them.

After suggesting to STFW, I usually try to paste a link to the appropriate data sheet, or application note and encourage them that if they don't understand it the first time, read through it again. After that I state that if it just isn't making sence to them that they should outline a good question that explains what they want to accomplish, then I will help all I can. Usually that sorts out those that are having a hard time and those that are just free loaders. The free loaders quit reading my post when I say to read the data sheet twice!

This entire coutry is plaqued with the desire to have it cheap, easy and now.

If I may, the aformentioned forum is about Atmel AVR uC www.avrfreaks.net

A guidline to asking questions is linked to from that site, it is leaned toward software and digital systems, but the concepts of how to compose a good question remain: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html The OP might enjoy this a little bit.

@DAG, while I was typing you entered:

QUOTE:

"As a teacher, I am well aquainted with "stupid" questions. I think that anyone who has a question should first seek the answer through study before asking the question. This process not only cements the answer in the questioner's mind, but it also takes the questioner on a journey where a great amount of knowledge is gained aside from the original question. So I would definitely encourage the those with questions to seek the answer before asking."

So well said. Pursuing the solution through studying will yeild a much better understanding than someone just giving you the answer.

i would rather read some of the links about bicycles then the huge not technical threads we had about religion or the pope even

Poor spelling does not bother me much. The web has been a place where spelling has low importance. Rarely does it affect the understanding of the post. Will Rogers once said something to the effect that "A man who only knows one way to spell a word cannot be that smart."

Education come from asking what, to many others, seems to be a dumb question.

i.e. Is the world round? Does the sun revolve around the earth or visa verse.

Ignorance can be remedied. Stupidity can only be outlived. Help others understand the purpose of this forum, as you point them in the right direction to answer the question. If they are ignorant they will thank you. If they are stupid then they will take you for granted and you can ignore them.

I am very disappointed to see contributors to this intellectual and interesting forum resorting to name-calling and expletives. These methods of expressions seem to belong more in a locker room (if anywhere).

As for the actual topic of the post, I think that we have to remember that methods of research are continually evolving. In my mind, posting a question to this forum as a method of research is as valid as entering a few keywords into Google or looking up information in a catalogue. I myself tend to trust information on a technical topic more if it comes from personal experience (as in CR4) than from a catalogue or website, which are are usually written to promote a certain agenda. Also, this forum provides more opportunity for continued discourse to further explain an answer. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the people who post questions that others feel could have been looked up elsewhere have actually done the prior research and are just looking for confirmation of surprising or conflicting information.

I do agree with you on the spelling issue. I know that some people thing that it doesn't really matter, but I've always felt that it is something that is easy to fix before releasing something for others to read. (I am constantly trying to convince my children this as well.) I am always embarrassed if others find spelling mistakes in something I have written. I don't see an obvious spell check utility that we can use when posting information - am I missing something?

You can write your post in Word or another editor. Spell check it there, then cut and past. I think it cuts down on the spontenaity though and you did have at least one typo in your post, but who's counting.

data did that on purpose g is to far from k on my keyboard to miss key

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I didn't really do it on purpose. My fingers tend to have a mind of their own sometimes, and just type anything that is a valid word. Unfortunately, no spell check will catch this type of error. The spell check did catch the double "and" though. I think I will probably enter posts in Word from now on, and only copy them after I've done a spell check.

I would suggest applying a principle that many Liberal types are fond of when it comes to content on TV, radio, etc. They say "Turn it off if you don't like it."

I all ways use a spell check her when eye post sum thing hear. Sum have tolled me that ewe knead moor than just a spell check her though.

Actually, I find this forum just fine. There are some posts from the clueless, but we have no way of knowing whether they are from a bright four-year-old or a dim-witted, lazy 25-year-old. There are the occasional perpetual motion machines... and topics that are only tangentially related to engineering (such as this one). But is is all entertaining, and much of it is enlightening. The thing that makes it interesting for me is that it is not simply nuts and bolts.

Elaborating a bit:

The very strength of a forum like this is that it goes beyond pat answers. I recently helped a woman with some pretty basic info on bicycles (stuff that might have fallen into the "shouldn't you be doing your own homework?" category). Now she's off and running on a design project, and having fun doing it: she may be on her way to becoming a great engineer. She made a point of personally emailing me to say thanks. I can't see that whole process as anything but good. I would argue that the best students come to sites like this as one of many info sources. That's good science and good engineering practice.

Further, this site gets inquiries from around the world, and posts are sometimes very simply put, or ambiguously stated, due to language difficulties. Best we give people the benefit of the doubt. This is especially true for those of us in the US: we are at the absolute bottom of the heap when it comes to understanding multiple languages.

As Water Buffalo said... you can always "change the channel" and pick and choose the posts to which you want to respond.

So… what is this topic really about? Engineering? Of course not. Intolerance: sure seems that way. The original poster is saying that he can't tolerate misspellings (despite being able to tolerate incorrect punctuation and wording that some find offensive in his own posts), can't tolerate questions from future engineers, and can't tolerate questions from folks who perhaps didn't have a Grainger catalog at hand. But he can tolerate his own post, which has nothing to do with engineering and everything to do with psychology.

Water Buffalo and I are at nearly opposite ends of the spectrum religiously and politically, but I have gained respect for, and understanding of, his views as a result of communicating through this site. In this fragmented and warring world, isn't any site that can get people communicating a good one?

If there's a cause for being P... , It should be quearies such as yours. After all only your needs are answered by such questions on an engineering site, the NON mech inclined are entitled to discover what they haven't yet experienced.

Me only questions might be better asked on a Philosophy or better yet a Psycology site.

If only you could learn to spell

You know the trueth to all this leads back to two very simple answers.

First and most importantly, it is the parents responsability to help educate their children from whence they start school and to help nurture good study habits through out their childrens tendence in school. It actually builds great charector in a child when we as parents stop and give our children the positive aspects in life when it comes to developing another figure in our society.

Second, it is a great loss as a parent when our children fail too meet expectations in life because we were too busy to stop and help them develop the neccessary skills in how to succeed in our complicated society.

I chose the first element from the very beginning with my children and as they grow older, I will always stop and make the time for them to be happy in learning hwo to deal with those ignorant ones around them. If you teach a man to fish, he too can feed many. Knowledge is a gift, and everyone is born with the same tallents, It is up to us to help those around us develop their tallents and help build their knowledge.

I believe we all must learn to turn the cheak and bight the tongue when those of lessor understandings pose questions to us. Because not all countries have the same educational systems as we do here in the USA or the UK, so as the good book states, do unto others. A smile goes a long way, I would rather be happy knowing I helped someone grow stronger with their knowledge of a simple answer for us and a hurdle for them. This is what makes a wise man seperate from others, knowing how to share and create peace among all faces of life on this earth.

The real trying ones' make the best students. For they will someday be the teachers when we are all gone. Help create that utopia.

All,

I am new to this forum (about 2 months now) and thoroughly enjoy reading the posts. It tends to get my brain thinking and will quite often "refresh" my approach to different situations and/or problems. There are many intelligent and experienced people that frequent this forum who appear to be at the top of their game. However, we all had to start somewhere. So, take it easy on the "little" guys......afterall, it's all relative.

Thanks and keep up the good work.

Bret

There are no stupid questions - only stupid people.

Many of the questions are from people who do not know how to use web resources, especially good search procedures, so when I provide a pertinent link I also show the google hit page. Soon these guys are searching for themselves.

Yes it seems once we educate some of these over intellegent beings on how to use their computer and all the attributes that go along with it, we might add to our pool of cloud busters. I agree with the last new guy who psted, we should be patient with these youngens and nurture their needs in the growth of their brain matter.

Hey Kids, Original poster here, ktel60.

I seem to have struck a nerve here. It breaks down to 4 catagories, so I'll have at them.

1) Children. Primary school and middle school can use Yahooligans, or How It Works, or the reference stacks in the local library, or even better consult a knowing adult. Teens doing non-research homework should have the answers in the texts and for research should start with primary sources or the aforementioned adult. College students should know better. That's why grad students drink beer.

2) Professionals. You were presumably hired because you knew this stuff. You have access to the standard works. Enough said. If you're really stuck on something and want to consult the group head, then fine! You're welcome. But check the standard works first.

3) Amateurs. God bless you. Nothing gives me more pleasure than to help another person. The casual warning about magnesium swarf may make the difference between the 250 MPG car and the total destruction of Detroit.

4) Spelling. That's a personal matter, but a big one. Your post is essentially a job interview - are you going to show up in cut-offs? I realize that many posters do not speak English as the primary language, and I am more than willing to make allowances. Humbling though it may be, I would suggest something on the order of (sorry, English is second language) or just (esl). I'd love to help, but as I said, if you think of it as a job interview things look different. Yeah, yeah, it's the internet, yadda yadda, can't be expected to keep the same standards... If you want assistance, advice or help, the best way to get it is to make it look good, and to make yourself look good.

Your friend,

ktel60

By the way, 'yadda' is spelled 'yada.' Just ask Jerry Seinfeld. Apart from that I wouldn't hold folks too strictly to a 'job interview' standard of spelling correctness when they post to this forum. This forum is not a job interview. Not by any stretch of the imagination. And speaking of imagination: "a man who knows only one spelling of a word has no imagination." - Will Rogers.

By the way, I'd to further add here that job interviews are usually *oral* - not written - are they not? Actually I find this to be a particular advantage in my case, as I've often spoken mispelled words in job interviews - such as saying the word 'pair' when I meant to say 'pear,' and so forth - but nobody knew it but me. There's a certain satisfaction in such privy knowledge, wouldn't you agree? It gives one a sense of power and control. The only hint my prospective employers had that something was amiss was due entirely to the subtle smirk on my face that always appears at such times. I know I should learn to constrain myself (and Lord knows I've tried), but even so, I always end up yielding to the irresistable urge to wallow in my own self-satisfaction. I suspect you do, too, and so in that respect, we are alike. -- Europium

Your rage stems from intolerance for accepting those whom you deem unworthy of attention because they are at a much lower intellectual standing than you are presently. We must all be wary of "forgetting where we came from" as the saying goes. If you are opposed to giving a leg up to the less: fortunate, intelligent, educated etc. then scan and move on to the next post and don't allow yourself to become emotionally involved. There are maybe others who are between your level and theirs who may be interested in helping them, giving them a chance to feel they have helped the community in some way even though they are not able to contribute to the more complicated posts. Each of us has a place. Each of us is on our own path. Some paths are longer than others. Some of us are close to the beginning of our path and some of us much farther along. There is much to be said for tolerance of all kinds.

And on spell check? From the broken English and misspelled words I see, I am amazed by the command of ESL I see here misspelled words and all. My most fluent second language is Italiano and I hate to think how badly my post would seem to Native Italians if I wrote it in that language.

Excellent site. See the davantage- so many people comment just on your piss. Lean back & enjoy.

You know, I once know a professor who is at the top of his field but couldn't even recognize a spanner. Of course the spanner is a specialised aeronautical spanner and he IS a language professor. And he did say it was a wrench ^_^.

Moral of the story is that you can't know everything. Even if limited the knowledge to the specified field of engineering. And there is much still man has to learn about engineering (civil eng. will be shamed by the "lower" lifeform, the ant).

Plus, computer/software/web engineering is still a relatively new field of engineering. There are those who are masters of mechanical, power, electrical, chemical, who shied away because of comments like yours. Think of all the knowledge they could have shared with us.

For those who are looking to be spoon fed, shame of them, but the suggestion by Juba-Jabba (#10) is as good as any as how to deal with them. From my personal experience with students, there are actually lecturers who encourages the use of a technical forum or in her words "virtual discussions", and there are students especially from the rural areas of the earth who seen their first computer in their university (which means they must be very smart to be awarded a scholarship but unfortunate enough to be born in a poor family), these students are usually very eager to learn and are very dedicated to their work. Comments like yours are very harsh on these students.

I am glad you feel better, I surely don't. As another poster has said, be humble and be thankful that you have a better intelligence and (may I add) a better fortune than most. A saying I heard from a fellow engineer who is muslim (yes like us, not all of them are terrorist), when you dies, 3 things remains with you that still adds to your good will in the eyes of The Lord, one the prayers of your (good) child, the alms (sedeqah) that you have given, and the benefits from the knowledge that you have taught.

Nicely said!