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Energy Conversion

09/10/2008 4:25 PM

I would like clear my long lasting doubt in energy conversion which is a very basic thing.

Consider an electrical network with wires carrying the flow of 100 e / 1 sec in go and ruturn wires with applied potential E and a heating element.

  • Well known is that there is no any change in drift velocity of electrons and/or quantity in go and return wires.
  • Here quantity of electrons flowing in the wires is proportional to Potential E when the load is a constant one.
  • I want to ask that what form of energy is converted in to heat energy in this passive element even when there is no any change in particles and their possed energy.
  • And drifting of electrons are caused by potential difference across load, then which factor drives the electrons in return wires.

( Aforementioned Thanks for replys )

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#1

Re: Energy Conversion

09/10/2008 8:50 PM

Hello k.dhana

I have tried to understand what you are asking.

You say the electrons are already in the heating element = true.

You say the electrons are already in the connecting wires = true.

While the electrons are undisturbed ("not actually doing anything - passive"), the heating element will not give off (emit) any heat = true.

When the connecting wires are joined to a means of moving the electrons along the wires, it is the jostling and bumping of the electrons in the element wire which causes the heat = true.

Example:

People in a street, stationary, not moving. The people are just there, hardly moving, perhaps talking to each other.

People start moving because of some applied force = A large steamroller arriving down the street, and they must keep ahead of it.

Electrical similarity: People (electrons) run away from the steamroller (generator), but if they all arrive at a narrower part of the street, (high resistance), they crowd together, and energy is wasted (heat) by the jostling.

The analogy is not perfect, and I have tried to give one easily understood.

You ask where the energy actually comes from, and that is a valid question.

Using street people example: To move people in the street requires energy (steamroller fuel = coal), heating the water to steam, steam runs the boiler and thus energy transfers from the burned fuel (coal) to propel (move) the steamroller.

Thus it is with electricity.

Somewhere there is an energy source.

  1. Sunlight energy gives Wind, Solar power, Hydroelectric, Coal, Wood, Oil, Chemical energy (plants)
  2. Gravitational Energy plus Sunlight gives Tides, Wind, Hydroelectric.
  3. Chemical Energy (from a cell or group of cells called a battery) gives electrical energy.

The Energy is transformed from one state to another, for assistance in moving that energy from where it is found, to where we want it to be used.

Example: Hydroelectricity to your heater element -

Sunlight causes evaporation of water, which falls as rain and snow in mountains, causing streams which join up to make rivers.

We dam the river, causing the water height difference (kinetic energy), allow the water to flow down through pipes (pen-stocks) through a turbine (propeller) at which point the kinetic energy in that falling water column is converted into mechanical energy which causes the turbine (propeller) to revolve.

Attached to the turbine shaft is an alternator, which converts the mechanical energy via magnetic fields to electrical energy in the conductors of the alternator.

The electrical energy is conducted along wires to a transformer, where the electrical energy is transformed into magnetic fields which vary, causing a different winding to be influenced by that varying magnetic field.

The electrical energy travels along wires to another transformer, where the electrical energy is transformed into magnetic fields which vary, causing a different winding to be influenced by that varying magnetic field.

the above may occur is several different steps, if your heater element is far away from the Power station.

There are losses at each energy conversion stage.

Important: The various % losses are multiplied, not added together.

So electrical energy arrives at your house, the to and fro of the alternating current is a reflection of the original alternator back at the Power station, where that water is pouring down the pen-stock, causing the turbine to revolve etc.

The higher resistance to electron movement (there are less free electrons in the heater element) causes the same equivalent to the narrower street and the steamroller coming towards them, the electrons get jostled by one another as they move, causing heat.

If the river stops flowing, the turbine stops rotating, and because the alternator does not now revolve, electrical power generation ceases, because there is no energy source, and far away at your home, the heater cools, the lights go out, and you have a "Power Cut".

In some respects the electrons in AC circuits never actually move from one place to another, but like a wave in the sea, where the wave moves but the individual water molecules stay where they were, just moving slightly in a tiny circle.

In DC (Direct Current) circuits, there is actual electron movement along the wire conductors, but the electron numbers are extremely large.

If you refer to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current

There you may read more about what the electrons do, where they go, depending on whether the electrical supply is AC or DC.

In all of this, it should be remembered that scientists do not really know what electricity really is, any more than light, gravity, magnetism and other physical properties are really understood.

Scientific theories have been made, observations taken, laws of physics are now established, because otherwise nothing may be even partly understood.

Every now and then, a new theory is made, and perhaps that theory is partly true, until a better one comes along.

I trust that I have not confused you with my reply.

Please advise if you have been helped, with

Kind Regards....

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: Energy Conversion

09/11/2008 8:21 PM

Really Thank you for your valuable reply and I am getting convinenced with your answer and the analogy you are telling.

But there is a new area, I am not feeling convience with your answer.In any form whether AC or DC, only free electrons in the ( in the outter most orbit of an atom ) atoms are moving in between two atoms, and the passsage of electrons causing current flow. Thus the speed of electrons in between atoms is called Drift Velocity and it is the order of mm/sec only.

As you are telling in DC there is actual movement of electrons, then the speed of e- will equals to speed of light. However if there is a wire of several thousands and thousands of kilo meters, then there will be a time delay in the other end for a bulb to glow.

If I am wrong please give me the best.

Thank You.

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#7
In reply to #4

Re: Energy Conversion

09/11/2008 8:53 PM

Hello again k.dhana

Current flow:

1 ampere = 6,250,000,000,000,000,000 electrons per second (approximately)

That number has been calculated, because nobody stood there and counted each electron as it passed.

No one is really sure exactly how many electrons pass in 1 second, and the answers given vary, and thus are approximate.

Thus you can calculate how small an electron really is (approximately).

Delay:

Yes, you are correct, and there is a delay.

If you think of a shock wave being sent down the wire when the switch is turned "On", that's how it appears to work.

The speed of light in vacuum to be exactly 299,792,458 m/s (Not the 300,000,000 m/s as originally estimated).

So if the total length of the circuit (there and return) is 299,792,458 metres (more or less) the light start to glow after 0.8 second, approximately.

The actual speed of the electromagnetic pulse in copper wires is also dependent on electrical resistance, temperature, wire purity and more.

The speed of light is not constant, and it depends what the light is passing through, refer: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/speed_of_light.html

That reminds me of the excellent short story "Light of Other Days" by Bob Shaw, and you can read it here: http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/classics/classics_archive/shaw/shaw1.html

It is an interesting concept, perhaps possible in the future, and I hope you enjoy reading that short story.

Kind Regards....

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#8
In reply to #1

Re: Energy Conversion

09/13/2008 8:40 AM

Hello Sparkstation:

you deserve a GA for translation + another for your reply! No insults to anybody OK!

Actually your descriptions are simple but therefore understandable, well done I can't see anyone bettering it. It is not rocket science but, it takes an expert to be able to break it down like that.

The question is basically pretty simple, and there was some interesting points made about where there was any electrons flowing. Well done mate.

stay safe

babybear

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#2

Re: Energy Conversion

09/11/2008 12:18 AM

That's a long answer Sparkstation

As simple as i can explain it is that the wire and the heater element have resistance meaning denser molecule structure, so while the electrons do not lose speed they move around the wire bumping into other atoms, turning kinetic energy into heat energy. Or the electron joins with the atom wile ousting an electron from it.

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#5
In reply to #2

Re: Energy Conversion

09/11/2008 8:26 PM

If there is a change in kinetic energy then there will be a change in its speed. so energy derived from KE will not be a actual cause.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Energy Conversion

09/11/2008 8:51 PM

if a foton hits an electron it wil move to a different layer emmiting energy, but the foton will move with the same speed. This is the same with electron in wire, probably the pushing out an electron from a atom is probably a better analogy.

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#9
In reply to #6

Re: Energy Conversion

09/19/2008 4:53 PM

Yes. It should be. With understanding from previous discussions I think energy is extracting like this :-

In the heating element/resistance the number of free electrons are lesser as compared with Copper. In this case the 100 free electrons ( 100e/1Sec) in the copper needs to evacuate same number of electrons in the heater also. As only lesser available free electrons in the heater, the current and/or potential ( V or I or VxI ) drives extra electrons in from the inner orbit of the atoms in the heating element.Naturally if an particle is detached from inner orbit, where it is closely bonded with nucleus then heat energy will be liberated. I think that is the heat we are enjoying with the heater i.e., directly from an atom.

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#3

Re: Energy Conversion

09/11/2008 8:05 AM

The potential energy stored in the battery (chemical) or the kinetic energy in the generator shaft is being converted to electron movement and then into heat with electricity being the way we describe the flow of the electrons.

Energy (J) = IVT

We can easily convert from Joules or Watt Seconds to BTU, Horsepower, etc...

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