Previous in Forum: Please identify the widgets?   Next in Forum: Laser and plasma
Close
Close
Close
12 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member United States - Member - New Member Hobbies - Hunting - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC USA
Posts: 791
Good Answers: 17

Prototype Tooling for a Foundry?

09/11/2008 2:43 PM

We have a foundry (supplier) who made some parts for me. My company paid $20k for the tooling and they produced about 20 ductile iron castings. After our Gamma build, I saw areas for improved cost. We redesigned the parts to remove some machining, then we changed the print on the castings to reflect the layout reports. (they were features we didn't care about or could live with.)

After all these changes we went back to the supplier for re-quote. I mean we changed the prints, they should re-quote it even if they were here and approved the changes we made.

We were expecting the cost per part to go down as we removed work content.

Shock, the price was the same on one part and the other went up.

On top of all that, they charged us another $5k for "Tooling and Fixture Mod's"

When I challenged them on the additional tooling charges, they first said it was because of all the 'engineering changes' over the project. So I asked them to produce the drawings that had changed, rev by rev so I could justify the added tooling costs. They said they would, but then came back and said it 'OK' the tooling would be alright the way it was.

In the meantime...(here is gets good) their sales rep comes in and sits with the buyer and explains that the tooling was 'Prototype' and they needed the $5k to make it into "Production" tooling. I've been working with foundries for 25 years and they have always told me they don't make 'prototype' tooling because the process is exactly the same for prototype as it is for production.

So, they call the foundry and before the foundry can answer, the sales rep leads the question "So, Bill, we built that tooling out of plastic didn't we? And we need that money to convert it to aluminum right?" and you get the idea of what happened next.

My question to you all is a simple one... could they actually have a plastic core box? Could they really have made prototype tooling?

__________________
Be careful of what you wish for .....
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru
Canada - Member - Our strength is our diversity

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1024
Good Answers: 40
#1

Re: Prototype Tooling for a Foundry?

09/11/2008 3:22 PM

In my opinion...BS.

The tools wear out, but not on a single use! If you identified different size holes to be drilled, I could see new drills being ordered. If the size increased significantly, it could be more then the capacity of the tools they own.

Prototype moulds are expensive for any machine work and sometimes cost more then you are charged because the profit is made on the mass production of the part. Also costs can be incurred when mistakes are made. The salesman may simply trying to recover these costs, or trying to increase his commission. Either way he is not being honest. You may want to tell him that his dishonesty will cost him the contract.

__________________
Perfection is a subjective and abstract concept.
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member United States - Member - New Member Hobbies - Hunting - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC USA
Posts: 791
Good Answers: 17
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Prototype Tooling for a Foundry?

09/11/2008 3:51 PM

Thanks Techno,

I smelled a fish.

__________________
Be careful of what you wish for .....
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16512
Good Answers: 670
#3

Re: Prototype Tooling for a Foundry?

09/12/2008 4:52 AM

I think the sales rep used to sell double glazing.

Simple answer...you paid for the tooling, go and see it or ask for it back so you can send it to another foundry, that would make them squirm? (or am I missing something).

Talk to their MD and tell him he'll lose business if he lets his sales guys try to BS you.

Isn't this exactly why we all despise and loathe sales guys?

None of mind paying a fair price for the fine tuning which is always required in such things. They are 'taking the piss', as we say over here.

Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member United States - Member - New Member Hobbies - Hunting - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC USA
Posts: 791
Good Answers: 17
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Prototype Tooling for a Foundry?

09/12/2008 9:28 AM

Good advice Del, I'm setting it up for next week. Would you like to know what I find?

__________________
Be careful of what you wish for .....
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16512
Good Answers: 670
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Prototype Tooling for a Foundry?

09/12/2008 1:42 PM

Yeh..we'd all love to know... you can always threaten to send us boys (and Cat) around.

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member United States - Member - New Member Hobbies - Hunting - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC USA
Posts: 791
Good Answers: 17
#6

Re: Prototype Tooling for a Foundry?

09/16/2008 11:09 AM

Well here is it is.. The temp tooling was not the pattern, But used to make the cores.

The red is realy a hard plastic... and yes, it's on a plywood base.

__________________
Be careful of what you wish for .....
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16512
Good Answers: 670
#7
In reply to #6

Re: Prototype Tooling for a Foundry?

09/16/2008 11:29 AM

The question is therefore...
What would the production tooling be made of?

Presumably this is for sand casting and this tool gets pushed into the sand to make the actual mold? (Or am I way off in the realm of making sand castles on the beach?)

Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member United States - Member - New Member Hobbies - Hunting - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC USA
Posts: 791
Good Answers: 17
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Prototype Tooling for a Foundry?

09/16/2008 3:38 PM

No, your not off base, your right on, they want to make the 'production' tooling out of aluminum or gray iron.

__________________
Be careful of what you wish for .....
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16512
Good Answers: 670
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Prototype Tooling for a Foundry?

09/16/2008 3:41 PM

I'd ask how many impressions they will get out of the plastic one?
How critical is the part, how many parts do you want to make etc...
But at least it shows they were telling the truth .

Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member United States - Member - New Member Hobbies - Hunting - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC USA
Posts: 791
Good Answers: 17
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Prototype Tooling for a Foundry?

09/17/2008 10:38 AM

yea that restored my faith. They said it would most likely last for 200 to 250 parts, for us that's a year supply, but this product should last a min. of 5 years before redesign, but after that no telling if they will keep that part or replace it.

So, we are going ahead and going to pay for more 'permanent' tooling.

Laby

__________________
Be careful of what you wish for .....
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#11

Re: Prototype Tooling for a Foundry?

09/17/2008 6:04 PM

I manage a foundry and we make prototype tooling all of the time for customers out of red plank or aluminum. The required number of pieces or machine cycles if it is a multiple cavitiy tool determines what type of material we use to make the pattern. $15 to $20k seems a little expensive to me for tool based on the picture you provided but not that far out of line they probably made a little profit on it but that is part of the game.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member United States - Member - New Member Hobbies - Hunting - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC USA
Posts: 791
Good Answers: 17
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Prototype Tooling for a Foundry?

10/01/2008 12:10 PM

I have no problem paying for a 'little profit' if they didn't make money they would be no help to me at all, but I don't want to pay for their kids education on one job either.''

Thanks for the input.

__________________
Be careful of what you wish for .....
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 12 comments
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (1); Labyguy (6); techno (1); user-deleted-1105 (4)

Previous in Forum: Please identify the widgets?   Next in Forum: Laser and plasma

Advertisement