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why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/13/2008 2:15 AM

water has a maximum volume at 4 degree c and 1 atm .

any body to explain this phenomenon.

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#1

Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/13/2008 6:02 AM

I thought you'd never ask.

Essentially, water molecules hide behind other molecules when it's cold, but then come out as they warm. But enough of this technical talk - here's a link to the process in layman's terms.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TFN-3YMFMRX-X&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=742f3cdaf0cf27ff16a08d5f278dd397

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#2

Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/13/2008 7:18 PM

HE is a genius. Water is the only material with this characteristic. Were it not so, cold area lakes would freeze solid from the bottom and never thaw. WE would not exits.

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#3
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/13/2008 7:35 PM

There are several liquids with this property. He4 is the only other common one.

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#28
In reply to #2

Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

01/26/2023 4:55 AM

Bismuth

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#4

Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/13/2008 11:28 PM

It is not the volume that is maximized at 4 degrees Celsius, it is the density. Starting at temperatures well above 4 degrees C, as you cool water it becomes denser, just as you would expect for any liquid as you approach the solid-state. But at 4 degrees C something happens. This involves the shape of the H2O molecule. The molecule forms an obtuse angle of roughly 107 degrees between one of the H atoms, the O atom as the angle vertex, and the other H atom. By the time you get to ice, the solid-state, the angle has increased slightly to around 109 degrees, and there it stays. This has the effect of making the molecule ever so slightly larger, with of course the same mass - hence ice is less dense than water. But only slightly less dense - as we all know, most of an iceberg is submerged below the water in which it floats. As another responder noted, it is this property of colder water being denser but frozen water being lighter that is responsible for life existing on the planet.

The H2O molecule angle numbers cited may be slightly off. If so, apologies to my high school physics teacher, Mr. Ken Adamson. He explained that it was this unique property of water that allowed life to exist on the planet, as per the excellent explanation of the other responder. He also addressed (thirty-five plus years ago) the "smarty-pants" type of comment that liquid helium has the same property attributed to water as unique. I remember a classic rant on the subject of the noble gases. Certain parties were making the case that under extreme conditions, the noble gases could be forced into combining with other elements, hence they were no more noble than other more active elements. These extreme cases involved very high temperatures and extreme pressures, well outside anything found in nature. Well, if you have to create unnatural circumstances in order to observe unnatural behavior, then the original observation of "nobiity" is a valid and useful characterization. There are always exceptions to a rule. The harder the exception is to find, the better and more universal the rule. There are always people out there who are trying to show they are the smartest people in the room. A good rule of general utility is to ignore them. However, keep in mind there are exceptions to this rule as well :-)

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#5
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/14/2008 2:35 AM

What a marvellous thing this................ evolution................ is!!!!!!!!

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/14/2008 6:19 AM

I plead guilty to being a smart-alec but not to being a smarty-pants.

I did see the OP had the maximum/minimum reversed, but assumed he simply said it backwards.

There are lots of engineers and scientists on this forum and many of us do see He often. It's not a rare liquid to me.

I think the angle explanation is not generally considered sufficient nowadays. There are a number of papers on possible causes for the anomaly; I cited one. Fell free to cite others, but don't flame me for reading journal abstracts.

Cheers.

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#13
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/14/2008 12:17 PM

Helium becomes a liquid near absolute zero, somewhere in the neighborhood of -270 degrees Celsius. This does not occur naturally on the planet, thus water is the only common substance which exhibits this property. This is an example of exactly my original point - if you look for extreme conditions you will find uncommon behavior. Extreme conditions and consequent uncommon behavior are not the basis for understanding the nature of our world.

The effect that temperature and liquid vs. solid-state has on the angle between the two hydrogen atoms and the oxygen atom is not an insufficient explanation. It is a simple fact that was observed long ago. What may be considered insufficient is that it is stated as an empirical fact, without further explanation. As to why the angle changes, that is clearly a question of the mechanics (perhaps quantum) within the molecule itself, and I don't know anything about that.

But unless the original post regarding water density was asking for a quantum mechanical description of the H2O molecule, the explanation of the angle change is both necessary and sufficient to answer the question.

Sorry for the smarty-pants remark. It was not personaly directed, but a general observation about people who make things more complex than they need be. An example of this is that we can use the physics of waves to predict the movement of a wave in water, without knowing anything at all about the makeup of water on a molecular or atomic basis. One can always ask why the water moves as a wave, but that doesn't invalidate the physics and mathematics that predict the wave movement. Einstein said everything should be made as simple as possible but no simpler. Newtonian physics was enough to get us to the moon and back, even though General Relativity had been around for almost half a century. We model things to the point where we can explain them. We increase the complexity of the model only when the original model fails to answer questions of interest. This is the history of science.

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/14/2008 3:32 PM

For me , it is important to be as accurate as I can without getting pedantic. I don't deliberately "dumb down" science unless I'm talking to a child. The OP seemed to be asking a question appropriate to a University student and I answered accordingly (plus the wisecrack, which I probably should have omitted, but...).

When I say the angle explanation is insufficient, that is because it is so. You cannot cause the density to vary by simply changing the angle. A better explanation of what happens is that there is a "competition" between covalent bonds (which have a unique angle in water) and hydrogen bonds (which have a different unique angle in water). At just below 4 °C there is, in effect, a potential well where the two regimes are mixed just so as to give the maximum packing. The angle is the tail of the dog; it does not wag the dog.

Now, there are competing theories about what the structure looks like at maximum density (i.e. how bonds are broken or how molecules are packed "into" one another) and it takes someone with far more chemistry knowledge than me to sort that out. There are even those in QM who think all this to be connected to zero-point energy. So, I referred the OP to a fairly decent paper; if he wants more, he can follow that. And, by the way, I do not intend the bond explanation to be seen as a final definitive answer, but rather one that is probably fitting for a university student in a beginning course.

And, I disagree with you about helium and this is why I think it important: Many people cite the "special density property" of water as being necessary for life and therefore proof of intelligent design. The fact that any other fluid (yes, in my world, helium is common but the point is valid even if you define it as uncommon) has this property deflates the ID claim. In fact, it is not clear that this property is needed for life. To wit, many small lakes freeze solid and then thaw. Other liquids without this property melt OK. That may be an open question, who knows?

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#16
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/14/2008 4:09 PM

Not getting into intelligent design vs. evolution. Not going there. Comment about the density of water as a function of temperature and state was simply an observation that aquatic life as we know it could not survive a planet in which the water it depended on for life froze solid every winter. If you don't believe aquatic life (fish/amphibians) antedated reptlles, mammals and birds then the point is moot regardless.

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#29
In reply to #13

Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

05/01/2023 11:54 AM

Extreme conditions not found on planet earth, are not required to disprove the idea that water is the only substance that exhibits a charactersitic of expansion upon solidification or alternately a liquid density greater than solid density.

Bismuth, gallium, silicon and germanium all exhibit this property at atmospheric pressure and a range of temperatures begining around room temperature for galium and slightly more for bismuth...but nothing extreme or exotic is required.

The exceptions to the claim are plentiful and do not require extereme conditions. It is time to retract the claim about water being the only substance to exhibit this property.

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#8
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/14/2008 11:08 AM

You wrote..."It is not the volume that is maximized at 4 degrees Celsius, it is the density. "

Hmmm... How do you maximize density without maximizing volume and without changing the mass? and if your statement is correct, why will a glass bottle explode when water freezes inside...

Wangito.

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#10
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/14/2008 11:36 AM

Question....................you almost fill a bottle of water and bring its temperature down to 40C .................you will find that the volume decreases to minimum volume..............then as you drop the temperature to freezing.................volume increases as the water freezes............ and smashes the bottle??????

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#11
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/14/2008 11:45 AM

Density equals mass divided by volume. For a given mass, density is maximized by minimizing volume. When you approach freezing (0 degrees Celsius), the angle between the two hydrogen molecules with the oxygen molecule at the vertex increases slightly, and that expands the volume of the molecule, while its mass stays constant. Hence density decreases slightly, and ice floats (just barely). So the whole picture is, starting with summer temperatures, as the earth cools in fall and winter, the water at the top of a lake or even the ocean cools the fastest, and when it gets to 4 degrees C where it is densest, you get "turnover" where the water that was at the top changes places with the warmer less dense water that was below, and when the new top water gets down to 4 degrees Celsius it basically stays put and gets even colder, and starts to freeze from the top on down, preserving the warmer denser water at the bottom. Hence, as the other contributor stated, life exists on planet earth.

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#12
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/14/2008 11:58 AM

..................or............convection currents cease because the water at the lower level (not necessarily the bottom-because water is a poor conductor of heat)) is at max. density.

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#15
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/14/2008 3:51 PM

If you take a specific amount of water and measure its volume at for example at 20°C and measure its volume again at 4°C, you will find that it has "SHRUNK" slightly.....it is now at its maximum density though, minimum volume.

You seem to misunderstand what is happening at 4°C......I hope this helps you to correctly understand better.....

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#30
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

05/02/2023 9:02 AM

As another responder noted, it is this property of colder water being denser but frozen water being lighter that is responsible for life existing on the planet.

I think that should read "....life as we know it existing on the planet".

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#7

Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/14/2008 8:37 AM

You have been given several good answers already, but do remember that this is what allows fish to remain unfrozen in deep water lakes as the water in winter gets colder or freezes, it rarely freezes more than 1 meter or so, ice fishing also could not take place either if it was not for this interesting effect!!!

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#17
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/15/2008 2:24 AM

What about 'fish anti-freeze' ? This doesn't negate your point Andy, but it's interesting all the same ; http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13426864/

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#18
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/15/2008 3:01 AM

For water under 1 meter deep, where it can freeze all the way to the bottom.....

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#20
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/15/2008 12:12 PM

That's another interesting web page Kris................you are doing well.

One thing I would like to know from Christina Chang is how this fish developed, over a period of time, or driven by a need to evolve AFGP, to stop its blood freezing.

Interesting...............how did the fish know it needed anti-freeze............and how did it know what to develop.

Boy I wish I had had some of that anti-freeze in me sometimes.

I used to drink several different kings of anti-freeze sometimes..................vodka, brandy, scotch...............and of course rum.

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#21
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/16/2008 2:24 AM

The fish probably developed this understanding at the same time water learnt how to freeze. Drinking anti-freeze is more than likely hazardous, and may not have the desired effect. My experiments with wood alcohol didn't do what I wanted.

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#22
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/16/2008 2:53 AM

The fish probably developed this understanding at the same time water learnt how to freeze.

Thank you for that extremely knowedgeable answer to that question................you will never know how appreciative I am...................I will be forever in your debt................rave, rave, rave.

My experiments with wood alcohol didn't do what I wanted.

Not that I know too much about it.............but, I believe many years ago when the pubs used to shut at 1800.............some of the down and out alkos used to to drink metho and boot polish........I believe, also some used to drink an after shave lotion Aqua Velva, which I assumed contained wood alcohol.............fortunately I could always get my hands on the real stuff.

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#23
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/16/2008 3:42 AM

....pubs used to shut at 1800....

More seriously, it's sad fact that many people do resort to drinking anything to get high. There was a recent case of a guy who got banned from filling stations because he drank the petrol. A lot of people who drink the weird stuff were mentally unbalanced before they did so, and usually end up with permanent damage/death. Walk around any town in the UK and you'll see people drunk/drugged. There's an alarming increase in the number of teens and pre-teens you'll see in such a state. The availability of ever cheaper booze in supermarkets, and the smoking ban in public places, have only encouraged more people to drink even more at home. You seriously wouldn't want to visit a hospital A&E at the weekend - 90% drink/drug related with an atmosphere to match. Sign o' the times I guess.

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#24
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Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/16/2008 4:15 AM

Unfortunately Kris, you are right.

A lot of people who drink the weird stuff were mentally unbalanced before they did so, and usually end up with permanent damage/death.

A big problem out here some years ago was sniffing petrol, to get high.................this practice led to several deaths of young ones and aboriginals............just turned their brains (or what they had left of them) to s*#t.

It is beyond all thinking as to why young ones..............and older ones turn to drugs and other things. When serving Herself, in the RAN, in the Far East (in the late 50's and 60's).............. opium was readily available yet, I do not know of any sailors who got involved with it...................we got into enough trouble with the grog......................as you said Kris, our society today is very sad.

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#9

Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/14/2008 11:21 AM

Yes water is an extraordinary substance. It's density has already been mentioned.............but, water is anomalous in nearly all of its physical and chemical properties.

The shape of the water molecule itself is interesting, not to mention the combination of two gases forming the most plentiful substance on earth.

This molecule acts like a tiny magnet, with its negative pole up by the Oxygen atom and the positive poles down around the Hydrogen atoms..............this gives water its relatively high surface tension. This is also why water beads on a smooth surface.

Water also has the ability to absorb large quantities of heat:-

00C - 1000C.....................4,19kJ/kg0C

Latent Heat of Vapourization (Entropy)...............2 270kJkg-1

This makes water an excellent medium for fire fighting.................and during the day absorbs much of the heat from the sun and gradually releases it during the night keeping our temperatures here on earth at a livable level................not to mention the role it plays in the earths major wind systems and local wind.............sea and land breezes.

Another amazing thing with water is is rain or more correctly.............precipitation.

The atmosphere is full of extremely fine particles of dust, smoke, soot, sea salt and of course water vapour..............as the air cools water vapour condenses on these tiny nuclei, forming minute droplets of water which become visible in the form of clouds. a small fluffy cloud (Cirrus) can contain anywhere from 100-1 000 tonnes of moisture, in the form of ice crystals.............it can take a million or more cloud drops to make one raindrop.

Just thought that I would mention a few points on our most valuable resource.

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#19

Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/15/2008 8:38 AM

Water has a unique 'anomalous' expansion prpoerty .

The expansion of water is unique to other materials.

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#25

Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

09/17/2008 10:37 PM

Another substance sharing similar properties is Ammonia. Although it is uncommon (actually impossible) to find Ammonia frozen in nature on Earth.

Just my two cents. Dragon

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#26

Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

08/07/2011 9:49 AM

Dear Mr. irshy84,

The water when cooled the volume will shrink, according to the CO-EFFICIENT OF APPARENT EXPANSION.

BELOW Zero Deg. C, the water becomes SOLID as Ice and the co-efficient of Linear Expansion of ice varies. from that of water. POSSIBLY the phase change of liquid to solid causes the effect.

The Water will have max Weight, for a given Volume of water,at 4 Deg.C (OR) MINIMUM VOLUME, for a given weight of water, at 4 Deg.C. pressure being 1 atm in both cases.

Your statement " water has a maximum volume at 4 degree c and 1 atm " is error.

Pl. clarify.

RAJESWARI.

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#27

Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

01/19/2023 7:09 AM

Yep. Try "Thermodynamin Properties of Fluids", any edition. Mayhew and Rogers are the authors.

The feature is pretty handy. The outcome is the survival of marine animals in the liquid phase beneath a solid phase at the top surface, as might be found in, oh, frozen lakes, for example.

It's a wonderful substance, water. Hydrogen Sulphide, its equivalent in the next row down in the Periodic Table (as Oxygen is to Sulphur), is a gas at ambient temperatures and pressures. If there were no hydrogen-bonding between water molecules, water might not be a liquid at all, and life as it is currently understood might never have got started.

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#31

Re: why water has maximum volume at 4 deg. c at 1 atm

05/02/2023 10:53 AM

If you take a volume of water at 4 degrees and heat it, the volume will increase. And if you cool the 4 degree water, the volume will increase also. So it seems the 4 degree water is when the water has the minimum volume. The reason this happens is from the motion internal to the H2O molecule. Temperature changes these motions. And those motions change the volume of space, the actual size, of the molecule.

Particles, atoms, molecules and everything else, changes physical size, with temperature. And some can change in different ways. When you heat a particle......it shrinks.......but at the same time, the bonding distance can expand. So it's the ratio of particle size change with distance change that can determine the final result. Some structures will shrink and others expand.....with temp.

We see the obvious changes in size, with form .....and we call it a phase change. But in the future we will understand all these unknown, un-detected "phases" of matter. And it's all the result of the "quantum" effect. A mysterious probability dynamic. But very few realize that particle size changes with energy. Or acceleration. Or gravity.

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