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The Pickens Plan

10/05/2008 7:16 PM

I wish to promote the www.PickensPlan.com

We are about to enter the age of "plug-in" cars. We are about to end the 20MGD import oil glut.

Pickens is talking about the "plug-in" methane system, and the Chevy Volt is another "plug-in car" (plug into any 1500 watt AC outlet).

We need to stop exporting our dollars (never to be seen again) and switch to "plug-in" cars. Fill either at home, and forget about gasoline lines or shortages.

What do you think about the future of "plug-in" cars?

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#1

Re: Photon Phreak

10/05/2008 8:49 PM

Hello Daylight RS Company

The energy available from various "National Grids" is insufficient to replace the present oil-fuelled cars, if everyone drove electric cars of this type.

You may well say "Just plug it in and it charges overnight", but that electric energy is generated elsewhere, losing much of the available energy in the various conversion steps.

I've just been reading about the "eco-friendly Totota Prius", and how when all the energy used for manufacture, plus the gross pollution caused from the nickel mines etc.that "eco-friendly car" is really quite poor, being far less eco-friendly and more polluting than a presently made LandRover, BMW or Mercedes car.

The "plug-in Methane" system (Compressed Natural Gas) has been tried in various countries, we had several in New Zealand's North Island, where that gas was reticulated, compressed and dispensed into high-pressure tanks in the car.

CNG cannot presently adequately replace petrol (gasoline in US) because it does not have the energy density of petrol, and there is no way around that problem.

A single large vehicle CNG tank (CNG at 3,000psi) can hold enough CNG for 100kM = 80 miles.

The compressors required at each dispensing point are very expensive, and need replacement after around 7 years.

The cost of new CNG compressors is so expensive that no Service Station dispensing outlet could afford to replace their ageing compressors.

So, after the billions of NZ $$$ expended on the infrastructure, vehicle conversions and all associated, the CNG system proved to be a flop in New Zealand, as in most locations where it has been tried.

I wish the US well, in the endeavours to get away from imported oil, but for the foreseeable future there is no other way, because of both vested interests, and the heavy investment made by families in their personal transportation.

Kind Regards....

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Photon Phreak

10/05/2008 11:15 PM

Sparkstation, I concur, and with an easy GA for you.

Daylight RS Company--T. Boone Pickens is an oil man--Read up on him and his "Plan".

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Photon Phreak

10/06/2008 12:13 AM

Hello Kilgore Trout

I am aware of the not-so-hidden agenda, of T. Boone Pickens, the oil magnate, and also other horses from the same oil-cartel stables.

Kind Regards....

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Photon Phreak

10/06/2008 12:29 AM

The anvil will outlast a hammer --won't it?

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Photon Phreak

10/06/2008 12:37 AM

Hello again, Kilgore Trout

Kind Regards....

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#28
In reply to #5

Re: Photon Phreak

10/07/2008 6:50 AM

I am actually wondering which of you (Sparkstation or Kilgore Trout) is the bigger idiot. What is with the stupid animation ?

rgds Del

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#70
In reply to #28

Re: Photon Phreak

10/09/2008 7:44 PM

Life is short Del, why not? Nice comment.

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#9
In reply to #2

Re: Photon Phreak

10/06/2008 7:12 AM

Hi Kilgore Trout,

This is an exciting network. I'm getting lots hits in my three days as a member. It is set-up for fast interacts.

I am the director of the, Tularosa Solar Energy Research Institute, and have four solar powered energy systems that have cut my utility bills by 80%. I need the money since I am 70 YO, semi-retired engineer, am about to leave this planet for better destinations.

Best Regards,

Photon Phreak

Daylight RS Company

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#6
In reply to #1

Re: Photon Phreak

10/06/2008 6:31 AM

Hello Spark Station,

You are correct, in that, electric power losses over the grid are enormous. How about gasoline powered vehicles? I hear that only 5% of the potential energy of gasoline gets to the drive train.

Electric cars are so much more efficient, and will leave a gasoline car in a drag race.

We have so much available technolgy, and with this communication medium, I can see technology going into a new age of advancement.

I was a Civil Engineer for years, and now have 4 kinds of solar energy projects (three thermal and one PV) that have cut my utility bills by 50%. Why, because, I find solar energy to be so much more efficient. Soon PV will be 40+% efficient in photon energy conversion to electromotive force, and science will enter a new age of prosperity.

Best Wishes,

Solar Photon Phreak

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#17
In reply to #1

Re: Photon Phreak

10/06/2008 11:20 PM

Sparkstation,

your assumption that the grid is insufficient is wrong as cars fill up overnight, when there is little use of the grid. In addition it allows the use of generating systems which work 24/7 rather than peak load generation making the grid more productive.

While big oil CNG may not work in NZ; LNG and home compressed CNG are both successful in Australia. In fact way back in the 1960's trucks used Gas to boost power and economy.

With regard to the lower power of Gas, it has higher octane rating allowing for higher pressure ratios which bring the power output and consumption rates back up and far better than petrol powered cars. The main drawback is a tendency to burn valves and pistons due to the hotter combustion. On supercharged engines this problem is solved by running miller cycle and either big intercoolers or heat pump intercoolers. On others ceramic coatings and higher hot strength aluminium fix the problem.

Its just a matter of using your brain to solve the problem instead of believing Big Oils experts!

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Photon Phreak

10/06/2008 11:42 PM

Grow a set and log in. BP as in British Petroleum is one of the biggest players in alternative power, there in Texas. http://www.bp.com/bodycopyarticle.do?categoryId=7040&contentId=7046747

BP--A company ready to inflict insults and injuries to oil companies for the entertainment of "uncomplicated peoples". Enjoy the show!

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#27
In reply to #17

Re: Photon Phreak

10/07/2008 5:46 AM

The reason sparkstation got it wrong is because he does not know what he is talking about and his only contribution to this site is to copy and paste answers from elsewhere. How many times does this need to be pointed out. He is a "google" engineer. I have my doubts as to whether he has any formal qualifications in engineering.

regds Del

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#32
In reply to #27

Re: Photon Phreak

10/07/2008 9:36 AM

Del,

In the future, before engaging in character assassination, please log in.

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#31
In reply to #17

Re: Photon Phreak

10/07/2008 8:50 AM

Speaking of assumptions, here are two underlying assumptions that are obvious to me. First, and most prevalent, that people will always plug in at night. Retirees and other people not working first shift jobs are free to plug in at any time. While I do agree that most likely that the vast majority of the demand will be outside of first shift, there will be an overall increase. Second, and something that few have brought up (suprising considering the housing market), the plug in vehicles only work for homeowners and not for those who for one reason or another rent.

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#33
In reply to #31

Re: Photon Phreak

10/07/2008 10:21 AM

I don't see why you'd have to own a home to plug a car in. Here in Canada we plug our cars in during the winter to power the block heater. Apartments simply charge for parking spots- these prices could be adjusted for those who want to charge their electric cars just like anything else they charge you for when you rent a place.

I agree that not everyone will charge during the night. At any given time during the day when I look out my apartment window, the parking lot is ~half full. Not to mention weekends when people won't be working and might have to use their car at any time during the day/night.

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#42
In reply to #33

Re: Photon Phreak

10/07/2008 1:06 PM

In most cases apartments aren't equipped with exterior outlets. Additionally, many qwners/managers will not upgrade their electric to accomodate for many reasons (cost, existing structure/layout issues, and issues from carrying group electric to name a few). I'm not saying there won't be any, just that those units who offer it will be in the upper class of apartments and more than likely out of the average person's price range. And they will charge you for it, more likely they will try to make additional profit off of it.

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#24
In reply to #1

Re: Photon Phreak

10/07/2008 3:08 AM

Sparkstation, flopped in New Zealand, maybe because the station type was not desired with pipelines supplying the Natural Gas as it became a desire to make the Natural Gas then compress it and sell the CNG to the vehicle owner at attendantless stations which employ wireless and Bluetooth purchasing methods, plus have Fuel-Cell and Solar and Wind Turbines for power so there was no grid. Simple Hydrogen stations also won out with just a waterline or a water tank at the location which would be converted on use. Density, I suppose you are still trying to burn that stuff instead of sending it to a Fuel-Cell and use the power from that stuff. Milegae is much better than a GM Chevrolet Volt and the speed is better. You need some Fuel-Cells that work in both ways to generate gas thus storing electricity or to generate electricity and storing gas. Where did your mathematic lesson go to when you read that stuff you wrote?

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#47
In reply to #1

Re: Photon Phreak

10/07/2008 4:46 PM

If this is so, how come a country like India which is NOT so rich as USA or other Western coiuntries can mandate that all buses, taxis and the three wheel scooters use only CNG as fuel for them, also these vehicles cannot afford the high cost of gasoline and CNG is very much cheaper. I have talked with Taxi drivers and asked them how they feel about CNG and they say that it was the only way they can make money in their trade.

vshwn7@aol.com

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#52
In reply to #47

Re: Photon Phreak

10/08/2008 2:31 AM

India has a AirCar Industry thanks to AirCar. India also has had plenty of oil drilling in the past, most of their wells dried up but left Natural Gas and some of those are capped to recover the gas but not all. Their financial redress is divided into two purposes, one is government and the other is the people and banking while you might think a lot about what a bank is its more individual banking taking place so you might meet a banker in the street and turn off a deal right then and walk away with the cash and have to pay the terms as agreed to, penalty for not paying payments are severe so yes and no on wealth issues. With some concern for energy capabilities the people manage to get by with crude methods of repair and manufacturing thus accomplishing day to day work situations that can vary. As for government it is a bit more up the ladder and more tuned to what we witness in a democracy as collegiate students learn to compete and carry out a legit workforce with objectives of Executive leadership. India is not so poor that the entire nation must be fed and clothed always, India does suffer from famine and disasters while in a democracy you might never see this occur to a large scale and it not be resolved unless the United Nations comes to the rescue.

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#75
In reply to #1

Re: Photon Phreak

10/10/2008 11:18 AM

i am a little surprised at your numbers. i thought hondas natural gas vehicle, got 200 to 250 miles per fill up???????????? i am quite willing to be educated, so feel free to pitch in.

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#7

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/06/2008 6:41 AM

I've studied the www.PickensPlan.com and it sounds great on the surface, but the numbers just don't add up.

It all just sounds very self serving for t-bone.

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/06/2008 7:01 AM

Hi Bricktop,

Please give me your numbers.

The numbers that concern me is the exodus of dollars that is spent for foriegn oil ($700B per year), This country is almost bankrupt, and I don' t want to see my PHD kids standing in soup lines like we saw in 1930.

Are you ready for 20% unemploymnet

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/06/2008 7:45 AM

Hello, Daylight RS Company

-Off to work, I will respond later. What solar power systems are you using?

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/06/2008 8:05 AM

Hi Kilgore Trout,

Am glad you have a job. I hope it pays your mortgage and gas bills.

I have four solar systems:

No.1 Solar Thermal Space Heater with insulated/glazed collectors w/5 gallon heat exchanger (to isolate anti-freeze solution), w/120 gall heat storage tank which circulates to old school bus 12v space heater. I use anti-freeze solution to prevent freezing (like in my van).

No.2 Solar Thermal Hot Air space heater (using modified Thrombe Wall) for AM only (125F hor air..daylight to about 10:00 AM, when IS air temp gets to 95F.)

No.3 Solar Thermal Hot Wter 40G Batch Heater

No.4 Solar PV to run pumps, lights and fans.

All systems are ground mounted for research access.

Others to follow soon.

Also improving HOH home-made fuel cell. Beware of low pH.

Best Regards,

DRS

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#15
In reply to #12

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/06/2008 10:49 PM

I have zero sympathy for the idiots that bought a house with a mortgage that their checks won't cover. That is natures way of educating people.

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#20
In reply to #15

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/06/2008 11:48 PM

Six years ago, I saw huge housing projects being built in at least a dozen locations in this relatively small metropolitan area (Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania). I remember thinking, sometime in the future there is going to be a crash.

I put the blame on the housing construction industry for building thousands, even millions of "spec" houses across the country and then inventing imaginative financing vehicles, like interest only loans, in order to get them sold and make the construction companies filthy rich. (Yes, it did also give construction workers work). One of the measures of the countries health has been new home sales, not taking into consideration under what conditions. Much will need to change and unfortunately construction workers and their families are going to feel it.

As far as Pickens is concerned, I have a gut feeling he sees the handwriting on the wall as far as oil is concerned and is heavily invested in all these alternative energy agendas to keep HIM afloat and he wants you to help him. Either that or he has political aspirations and is building the base of his campaign on the energy crisis since he doesn't have a political background to rely on. Not that he expects to win, just to go into the history books as having tried before he dies. It's an ego thing. I seem to recall a short billionaire industrialist with big ears doing just that a few years ago, only HE thought he COULD win. When you have all the money and possessions you could ever want, all that's left is power (the political kind) and notoriety.

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#37
In reply to #20

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 11:53 AM

I would not fault the builders of spec houses. To get to the root of the collapse of the housing industry you have to go back many years to when Congress dictated to the lending institutions to loosen lending practices. Congress wanted as many people in houses as possible.

Before this action by congress (which promised punitive measures to institutions who didn't toe the line) lenders would not make loans to unqualified borrowers. After Congress put it's nose in things lenders came up with gimmic loan packages like the 80/20 where someone would get a loan for 20% of the loan and another for 80% of the loan. Then, as time went on they would start marking people who just got out of bankrupsy as "A" paper.

What was seen as "red lining" was the lenders simply applying sound lending standards. When a large percentage in various areas of a community were being denied for home loans activists see this as a "red line" being drawn around certain communities. It is not the responsibility of the lender to assure everyone qualifies for a loan - it is the responsibility of the borrower to be worthy of the credit. As soon as Congress and other activist groups (like ACORN) put a racial spin on things the lenders, realizing they were in a loosing battle came up with ways to make even the worst credit risks look golden.

Meanwhile Fanny and Freddy were purchasing bundles of these sub prime loans. Also when interest rates were at all time lows people were sold on the idea of the adjustable rate loan. Few thought what might happen to interest rates three years down the road.... when rates were already at historic lows (Helloooo!)

Meanwhile in the office of Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and oh yes, Baroc Oboma, the most merciful contributions were flowing from Freddy and Fanny to their pockets and coughers. Even when warnings were brought to the banking comittee Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and others shot the messenger and turned a blind eye.

Meanwhile with home sales booming because demand increased (because everyone "qualified" for a loan) people began to build more houses on spec (spec homes are nothing new - my dad built spec homes from the 60's through the 80's (built all of them with cash so he could afford to sit on them until he got the price he wanted). Another element of the speculation was the people "flipping" houses - the classic dream of buying low and selling high. Many of the flip also had questionable loans behind them.

Just like the Dutch Tulip market, all "good" things come to an end. It was just a month ago that Barney Frank was openly saying that Freddy and Franny were sound (still the blind eye financed by contributions and kick backs).

The whole thing came down like a house of cards when interest rates adjusted up and the unqualified borrowers couldn't pay the new rate.

I do not think the way out or forward is to have the tax payers cough up what will surely be a trillion dollars by the time all is said and done. I think the loans that are in trouble should have their rates brought to current market rates and then have the loan extended to whatever term would be required to keep their payment what it was originally. They may be on a 50 or 60 year loan but the loan should still be performing. Granted they will pay a ton of interest and hardly build equity, but that's what happens when you are in over your head. In reality they would likely sell the house within 5 to 10 years and move on.

I think those who got stuck flipping houses are on their own. They took a gamble and chose poorly.

Throwing money at the problem will not fix it. Putting Congress in charge of the "bail out" will make it worse.

Pickens Plan:

His idea is to shift the use of natural gas from producing power to transportation. I doubt it would be a 1:1 transfer. More than likely demand would increase. LNG may be cheap now, but as soon as demand increases so will price.

With the grid in the state it's in now, it's doubtful it could handle the additional capacity of all the mills he plans. Power plants are in business to make money. The idea we are going to replace a power plant with a wind mill farm is absurd. The owners of the power plant will not just close their doors and walk away. They are going to squeeze every cent out of their power plant not shut it down.

CNG cars - who is going to pay to convert your car and mine to run on CNG (Or LPG)?

The infrastructure does not exist in the us to refuel the cars. The company(s) who build that infrastructure will want a cut thus increasing the cost of natural gas even more.

Has anyone looked at the cost of a barrel of oil lately? It's below $90 a barrel. See what happens when demand decreases?

Travis

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#41
In reply to #37

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 12:37 PM

Some good points and some dull.

Alternative energy will only take a piece of a growing pie, until the concept causes conventional means to become less than economically feasible to operate.

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#43
In reply to #37

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 1:23 PM

Travis,

Don't forget that the credit bill passed two years ago had a significant effect on the banking industry and the economy. By blocking people from being able to start with a clean slate and forcing credit counseling and three years of payments on consumer debt this bill shackled people to their bills. I do not condone people running up consumer debt then trying to skip out on the bill, but there are instances when people get in over their heads or a significant financial event occurs where this is necessary for the individual to be given a reprieve. Additionally, most people are not educated on how to handle money. they spend and when they run out they borrow. The consumer credit companies have been taking advantage of this for years. Just go to a college on the first day of classes and in most cases they'll be a booth right outside the bookstore with free gifts for anyone who applys. When I was 18 I knew little about responsible use of credit, much like most of my peers. Those of us who were foolish enough to sign up generally learned the hard way. I know many of my friends have been in the same situation as well.

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#62
In reply to #20

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/09/2008 6:49 AM

Hi Jaguar,

This building boom has been inflated. I lived in El Paso for 30 years, and worked for a while in commercial construction and I used my Spanish to conduct mandatory safety meetings. 95% of workers were Spanish speaking only. To be able to have two incomes, we had live in maids for $25/W.

Now that construction boom has died, most of the WB have returned to Mexico. They are good workers, but we must preserve our soverignty for obvious reasons.

I think that Pickens is OK. He is to old to have alterior motives. His membership is almost 1M, and his plan is just getting started. McCain needs oil money for his campaign, and will be out of the Recovery Picture soon. Pickens Plan is bacically responsible to generated big buck via Recovery Plan for Alternatives Industry, and to get this 5M new job program off the ground ASAP.

Suggest you follow EERE.gov for good news in the AEI.

Best Regards,

DRS

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#76
In reply to #15

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/10/2008 11:29 AM

that is sort of like saying that car wrecks clean up the gene pool. true, but a little tacky.

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#11
In reply to #8

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/06/2008 8:01 AM

Welcome to CR4 Daylight_RS_Company

I could not agree with you more! My numbers are in the links I posted.

I think our future lies in electric. After all, the infrastructure is already in place. Although solar and wind seem to work OK on the small scale, (as in yours, and my home systems), they're not going to be enough for the entire country's energy needs. Our future will be in nuclear and hydro. What we are doing right now will come under the heading of "too little, too late".

Unfortunately, this country, (and the world), is headed for a major correction. This will soon hit us, right after the election, no matter who wins. Stock up on bullets and Spam.

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/06/2008 8:24 AM

Hi Bricktop,

I agree with somewhat. We have enough technology to use Solar Alternatives to make gasoline obsolete. I think we should use technology to end our economic crises.

I worked on oil wells as a tech for four years....spent my savings on college...and am intruiged with photons and how they can do all kinds of neat things. Nuclear is OK, but is is dirty, like fossil fuels. I then studied Chemistry (inorganic)like a glutton,, and transformation of energy to many forms, to me, is awesome.

AC power is great, but it too is inefficient (30+% line losses). Eventually we will get to 100% solar energy or my Social Security check will stop coming. Yes, I am stocking up on Spam and other dry goods.

Best Regards,

DRS

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/06/2008 9:25 PM

Dinner is on and new job has 1.5 extra hrs. commute. I will try to participate soon.

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/06/2008 11:06 PM

Daylight RS Company--Are these off the shelf systems or are you trying something new?

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#94
In reply to #16

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/25/2008 10:35 AM

Hi Kilgore Trout,

Please keep in my that I am a worn out 70 yo old Civil Engineer, who did not make it big with two (2) solar businesses on the side.

My solar energy systems (4) are such:

System No.1 (my favorite) Thermal Solar Modified Thrombe (Hot Air collector) Wall which faces to east. Collector area = 120 sf. Use 12v circulator fan and get 125F hot air 15 minutes after sunrise. Cost less than $50 (consists of 100 sf of black shade cloth as the absorber glued to the side of my casa RV. Over that I have two ply 2 mil clear plastic film, $3 per roll (10' x 20). I use the Einstein KISS principle in all my research work.

Have been using my invention (poor boy version) for seven years, and I love the 90F IS Air Temperature by 10:00 am. Only problem is that is does'nt work during cloudy weather Estimated output per day 20000 BTU/D. Oerating Costs: Zilch.

No.2 System (next report)

Best Regards,

Photon Phreak

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#95
In reply to #94

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/25/2008 11:47 AM

www.woodmizer.com/us/secondary/kilns/SolarDry3000/solar.aspx

I got to see the proto-type of this about 15 years ago. It wasn't very impressive, but it looks like they are getting a little better.

I'm busy and will reply to you soon.

Regards-KT

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#39
In reply to #13

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 12:06 PM

Eventually we will get to 100% solar energy or my Social Security check will stop coming.

Social Security is nothing more than a pyramid scheme. It is completely dependent on large numbers of participants entering the system to support those already in the system. For years this worked as the baby boomers worked their way through the economy during their working years.

Now in increasing numbers every day the boomers are moving from contributing to the pyramid to drawing from the pyramid. There simply are not enough participants entering the bottom rungs of the pyramid to keep it going. This is why Congress is increasing the age when you can draw "benefits".

I would rather have been able to keep the amount taken in the name of social security to have invested as I saw fit over the years. Even just stuck in CD's the return would be higher than what I will see from social security. People don't understand that the around 15% of your income is redirected to social security (roughly 7 1/2% taken directly from your check and another 7 1/2% your employer "matches" (which you would otherwise see in terms of a higher wage if they didn't have to "match" it.))

When the subject of allowing people to manage their own retirement money many people will say, "What about the people who spent it instead of investing it?" To that I say, hunger is a very good motivator.

I would love to be able to manage the full 15% myself from here on out and would even settle for 7 1/2%.

Just remember, any government that can give you anything can take everything.

Travis

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#44
In reply to #39

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 1:36 PM

Travis,

Once again I wish to add to your statement. Look at the Railroad workers retirement fund. I have a friend that retired two years ago after 44 years with the railroad and he now draws approximately $7000 per month! Additionally, if he were married his spouse would recieve an additional 50% of his monthly retirement! All with full health benefits! This is modeled after social security and is flush with cash. The reason that one is failing and the other is succeeding is the subtle difference between the two. Congress has borrowed money from Social Security, while the railroad fund cannot be borrowed from by anyone. And by the way, Social Security is not a pyramid scheme. Here's a good link to explain.

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#23
In reply to #7

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 2:38 AM

Mr. Picken's is the man that withdrew all his Yahoo Stocks. He is a retired oil man nothing much to that excepting with his money from oil he successfully made a Wind Farm and it is a growing concern for all of Texas and America. He's successful because he sticks to his motive. He had to get approval for all those Wind Turbines and since that turned successful he brought the website to view upon it and solar, everyone in the Wind Turbine Business sells both grids for solar and Wind (converters and inverters). Theres nothing fishy about his motive to get signers to his dream. When so many on his site stand for Wind Turbines in America, Australia, Germany, Denmark, UAE others are standing to serve the Green Energy platform to end CO2 emissions. This is how Electric Vehicles, Natural Gas (CNG) Vehicles, and Hybrid Vehicles get their introduction and awareness for many want to convert and what answers why their state has no plans to help them, hey they are taxpayers and entitled to some help. Anyway you look at this Mr. Picken's is conscious of the CO2 Emission problem facing not just America but the entire world. It is a problem if your not concerned maybe you should go get a clean vehicle that burns no fuels.

Iran and Venezuela I might add are changing vehicles to CNG and President Hugo Chavez is going to do it for free, theres no Junk Science that makes much scientific sense as I read, the writer cannot join to solve his problem since the writer does not care.

Coal combustion is no factor, that Junk Science writer is full of bunk. The fact is the writer does not know about the Methane Fuel-Cell nor does the writer know about the coming age of the Coal Fuel-Cell, the writers name at Junk Science is Steven Milloy. If you stayed with him all your life your scientific mind would shrink and you would become a nothing in the field of technology and scientific discovery. I stick Steven Milloy for spreading a farce and praying on development which he cannot understand if it is not written for kindergartner. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad decided to reduce Iran's reliance on imported gasoline is a wrong assumption, as President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad actually decided back in Dec 2007 to start the program to make more money from the export of the fuel instead of importing. Beside that it is not Iran making the offer "So what's the full story behind Iran's move, and what would be the impact of switching our cars to natural gas?" it is President hugo Chavez so why does Steve Milloy think he is so right with his statements. I really believe the Internet does not need Junk Science. Again a wrong assumption doesn't Milloy know how to read, "Ahmadinejad then decided to convert Iran's new car fleet to natural gas." the vehicles converted were Taxi Cabs which is mostly what the government uses for transportation in Iran. Making a big thing out of nothing, this sort of conversion has already happened in China and Japan, right now they are heading forward on Electric Vehicles and those Taxi's there are already done. He is wrong about pressure tanks for CNG, the autos that are Hydrogen need 800bar pressure to store Hydrogen before it goes into the vehicle so that is costly if you need 100,000 tanks in each state of 800bar each. Natural Gas is a safer medium not requiring this much pressure to store it nor does Methane Gas and to prove it is safer there are patents for a taxpayer to use such a compressor in their home to fill their vehicle from their Natural Gas supply line. That is the acceptable way of handling Natural Gas, it is transported as Compressed Natural Gas. Tankers that bear their load have lots of liters of it and that much would not fit in a automobile, auto tanks are now being devised of polyurethane plastic nothing like a metal tank for Hydrogen. There are no dual use autos in Iran, it is either Gasoline or CNG, they are not burning CNG nor Natural Gas in a ICE.

Actually a fill-up is based on the equivalent gasoline price, $5.00 for CNG and over $50.00 for gasoline so which do you want? Natural Gas is abundant, checkout that cow pasture for manure as that can become Natural Gas. Storage of methanol is much easier than for hydrogen as it does not need high pressures or low temperatures, because methanol is a liquid from -97.0 °C to 64.7 °C (-142.6 °F to 148.5 °F). The energy density of methanol - the amount of energy contained in a given volume - is an order of magnitude greater than even highly compressed hydrogen. The waste products with these types of fuel cells are carbon dioxide and water. The efficiency of current direct-methanol fuel cells is low due to the high permeation of methanol through the membrane materials used, which is known as methanol crossover. A new kind of membrane (polymer electrolyte thin films, assembled "layer by layer") has been shown to reduce this problem dramatically. Other problems include the management of carbon dioxide created at the anode and the sluggish dynamic behavior.

The better of the Lithium Batteries is a Lithium Polymer Battery because it is light weight and holds its charge longer, replacement every 10-15 years now available from South Korea. Some Hydrogen vehicles use Liquid Hydrogen, but it is becoming more popular to have a Diesel Fuel-Cell for refrigeration power purposes than depending on the Diesel engine to create the power. Someday the benefits of better Diesel Fuel-Cells will evolve a complete 18-wheeler using it for electric power production instead of having a Diesel engine to burn it. Technology is evolving faster than good ole Steve Milloy can erase his Junk Science website. I hope the kids are not trying to learn anything from him.

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#19

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/06/2008 11:46 PM

For my two bits worth, I think the future of portable fuel is water. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I think that when GWB invested two billion in hydrogen research, he was really buying patents and controlling interests in hydrogen research. When the crunch really comes, we will find hydrogen to be the answer, but it will be proprietary technology that implements it. and we will pay as much for the resulting fuel as fuel as we do for gasoline. thanks GWB. This is the method used to prevent the old fashioned 'benefactors of mankind' from spoiling the profits.

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#25
In reply to #19

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 3:10 AM

Could you be forgetting about Sea Water? Go to You Tube and search for John Kanzius whom discovered that Sea Water burns because it was excited externally by a radio frequency waveform.

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#49
In reply to #25

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 6:11 PM

Yes, but even Kanzius will readily admit it takes more "broadcasting" power to create the burn environment than the BTU's experienced.

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#53
In reply to #49

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/08/2008 2:43 AM

Doubtful that this is a factor, besides what else use is a radio wave frequency than to cause the molecules to vibrate out the Hydrogen from the Sea Water? If you have another use for it then the objective seems more likely a byproduct of the original use which was not converting anything. Theres a bit of a better scenario as I see it, much like you build a dam and enjoy the reservior for what its worth, swimming, fishing, boating, maybe landing planes all in the while you are generating electricity so the purpose of the solution really matters. Its not like we are fishing for extraterrestrials with the original purpose of the radio wave but what else is there to do, they might already posses the knowledge so why should we use the energy to broadcast to aliens? Burning is besides the issue as well, capturing the Hydrogen needs to be the objective for a fuel-cell, but why not bring the Sea Water into a artificial environment where it is maintained for the purpose if a state is not near the sea. His device is for sale at the right price, he intends to continue the research of solving cancer.

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#21

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 12:09 AM

Plug in vehicles will meet the around town needs of most folks. If they need a car for both town and long trips, they can buy a hybrid of some kind. Hybrids will dominate soon. Then plug in hybrids. Plug in vehicles and hybrids will be available from all over the world. The US auto industry is way behind, as usual. Chrysler plans three hybrids. GM plans the Volt. The killer for the US industry is that there are 200 million? existing ICE vehicles in the USA. People will want to use them up! Smart people realize that it is not a good idea to buy a new one. You can buy used ones very cheaply, or just use up what you have. Your existing car may still be the most cost efficient vehicle, since you already own it. It will be interesting to see what percent of the cars purchased in the USA will be made here. Will we want to buy new hybrids from a company that has never made them before? Honda and Toyota already have a track record. Hybrids will benefit from new, on board, generator technology. I just read an article in Freeenergynews.com about free piston technology. It might give a generator 50% efficiency. An standard ICE has about 20% efficiency. Another advantage of electric vehicles is that they could back up the grid during high demand, and be recharged while we sleep.

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#22

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 12:30 AM

Daylight RS,

T.Boone Pickens needs to set up his own CNG conversion stations that make it cheap to convert a gasoline car or no ones going to buy into his CNG plan.

Paying $10K to $15K here in California isn't going to cut it. Maybe if it was something like $2-$3K he'd have alot of takers.

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#38
In reply to #22

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 11:56 AM

Go on vacation out of state and have the conversion done, about $1400.00 cost of the kit plus installation about 6-8 hours shop time. Then re-register in state as and alternative fuel vehicle.

Don't wait for fueling stations buy your own CNG compressor.

about.com / all things CNG

you are not required to have an EPA approved conversion kit installed on your own car. Most conversion kits installed throughout the USA are not EPA approved conversion kits and are being installed throughout the USA without anyone having problems from the EPA. It is the installers of EPA approved kits that do not want you to install a non EPA approved conversion kit on your car and they are trying to frighten the consumer from installing them.

Interactive map to view filling stations in your area. CNG Filling Stations



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A Division of Awesome Pool Products, LLC
902 West 2010 South, Syracuse, Ut 84075
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#54
In reply to #38

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/08/2008 2:50 AM

Perhaps, but some states have laws for vehicles which use gas because there are tunnels and going through those with such a vehicle is prohibited but you can always take the longer route or just have two CNG's on each side and always drive through the tunnel with a electric or a ICE.

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#59
In reply to #54

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/08/2008 11:31 AM

The laws you speak of concern carrying large quantities of certain declared HAZMAT types of cargo.

Though a substance is deemed hazmat doesn't often prohibit transportation if in small quantity and properly contained.

For example this link to the Chesapeake Bay Bridge and Tunnel prohibitions but scroll down to the descriptions para (3) about "Alternative-Fuel Vehicles"

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#60
In reply to #38

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/08/2008 2:54 PM

Thanks bwire, that CNG station map was eye-opening...sadly there's not a station within a hundred miles of my domicile

I feel that I am not alone

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#61
In reply to #60

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/09/2008 12:48 AM

You're welcome.

Mine neither but I can purchase a CNG compressor and...figure out why the chicken crossed the road

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#71
In reply to #38

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/09/2008 8:10 PM

Thanks. This may really be the way to go. I wonder why more folks haven't done this. Apparently it is something any good mechanic could do. With the economy collapsing, we may have to use our old ICE vehicles for a long time. Probably would make sense anyway. The cost of a home refiller would come way down with volume and competition. What is the reason for re-registering the vehicle?

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#77
In reply to #71

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/12/2008 10:15 PM

Re-registering changes the vehicle classification (modifications of this type may require it). The vehicle classification determines the cost of registration fees, the smog testing requirements and may significantly reduce insurance costs.

I suspect not changing the vehicle classification would mean the original smog qualification equipment would remain on the vehicle. The change means it would be exempt.

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#26

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 4:04 AM

Hi all,

being one of those in full-time employment I don't often get the time to join in, although I read a lot. Seems to me that this thread has got a bunch of guys (why no girls?) pretty excited. Because I am a diesel engineer my experience obviously biasses me to what I know well - and I'm sure that will apply to everyone. What we need to do is pool information in a better way to be able to choose the best route forward, and not bitch about motives, and political pointscoring - that will be with us whatever we do.

The world is in a mess - not "just" the US or "the west" but all of us. All energy sources have their places in this - but with all the change and all the options around at the moment, making a good choice is all but impossible. There is no doubt that mistakes will be made along the way but that is no reason not to try things. Changing away from a dominant fuel source (ie petroleum products) is bound to be hard and because of the years of development the entire system has gained a lot of inertia.

There is no doubt in my mind that low-energy density forms of energy such as wind need to be handled very carefully - not for nothing were traditional windmills the way they were. People of the past were no less intelligent than us - OK they may not have had the knowledge but we do not seem to be applying it that well. Wind power is great when the wind blows, but energy storage and distribution is the age-old problem and chief enemy of all low-energy density systems, generation at point-of-use is much more energy efficient. We need to be changing the way we live to take advantage of the energy when and where it is, not always trying to change the world to suit us.

Incidentally I recently read a "Which?" report (consumer magazine in the UK) that has long-term tested a suburban windmill and found that it actually was a net user of electricity ...... please note I am NOT trying to bash wind power, just noting that the attempt to harness power sources in the wrong way can end up worse than bad; I am sure the same can be said for home tidal systems(!), solar collection devices at La Valee (!) etc

On natural gas - there are areas of the world where gas sources are also drying up so that is no panacea either, but one source to be used with care.

The one truth is that we are all using far too much energy and have a collective responsibility to cut usage IMMEDIATELY - don't wait until tomorrow for something better, do it NOW. Drive more slowly and patiently, wear more clothes in the winter, make more educated choices about your purchases, don't buy what you don't need, grow some of your own food - it's fun challenging yourself, much more fun than just moaning about it.

Do we want to go back 100 years ish to an agricultural society? Why not? as long as we preserve the real advances made over the last century - those inventions/discoveries that remove drudgery have to be the most important ever made; things like washing machines, medical knowledge (separate discussion topic, what is the point of living longer?), cookers that don't need 2 hrs cleaning for 1 hrs use, - looks like another discussion topic right there!

Time to sign off and earn my crust......

Best wishes to all, God bless.

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#35
In reply to #26

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 11:08 AM

Primafuel Inc. to build a biodiesel plant that would make 60 million gallons a year of the alternative fuel. Their plan is to use 14 acres of port land along Industrial Boulevard in West Sacramento, the $60 million to $90 million facility would have nearly 10 times the production capacity of the largest existing biodiesel plant in California, must pass through state and local environmental reviews, which have frequently delayed biofuel projects elsewhere in the state. Permitting is expected to take at least six months, followed by up to 18 months for construction. The plant is expected to employ 70 workers. Nationwide biodiesel production in 2006 was 250 million gallons. By contrast, Americans burn about 60 billion gallons of petroleum diesel and 140 billion gallons of gasoline each year.

CHP Fuel Cell instead of Combustion Engine Once economical for mass consumers is a fuel cell for Diesel or gas with 1 kW electricity and 4.5 kW heat exchanger operations as well. Simple prototype of Webasteo whom is exploring the possible use of Vegetable Oil Bio-Diesel operation.

Eaton Corporation and Peterbilt Motors Company, a division of PACCAR Inc (Nasdaq: PCAR), manufactures premium quality trucks for a wide range of markets, have begun production of their new hybrid drive powertrain for medium trucks. Peterbilt also has a has a Electric Hybrid Car and Hydraulic Hybrid Truck ($6,000 credit, the maximum for Class 6 hybrids and the maximum $12,000 credit for Class 7 hybrids rebates).

Peterbuilt Builds Electric & Hybrid Trucks.

Webasteo plans to build its Diesel Fuel-Cell regardless of restrictions in the U.S. making it illegal based on rules established that it cannot be used during idle situations in parking lots, it is mainly for generating electricity from Diesel Fuel which then is for powering a Electric Refrigeration Unit on the vehicle. The goal of course is to make better versions which can power a 18-wheeler entirely or other trucks. This eliminates the CO2 Emission making Diesel Trucks Zero Emission vehicles.

Have you read about Wal-mart & Peterbilt partnering on Heavy-Duty Trucks back in Mar 2007 they started? See article. I just arrived at Cracker Barrel one evening with a friend so he could pick up a meal and was waiting in the car when three large brand new bright green trucks drove past, I did not think much about it but now I see those in the article. I have also seen the newest Wal-mart truck fleet here, Wal-Mart's fleet of about 7,200 semitractor-trailer trucks. Great Dane Trailers, which is developing a more aerodynamic trailer for Wal-Mart. Would you believe that Wal-mart owns airplanes for commercial flights, Wal-Mart Aviation. The biggest piece of the solution will come from future hybrid diesel-electric engines.

Peterbuilt & Eaton Partner with Walmart

Methane fuel-cell power is perhaps going to be cheaper than Hydrogen fuel-cells mainly because of storage methods but since many builders are planning instant hydrogen production as needed the expense of storage under high pressures of 800bar is eliminated and those are self serve stations. Another option of course is Sea Water and it may be some time before colleges and universities begin planning stages for that option but it does work, search for a video on YouTube about John Kanzius the discoverer.

I like the BluWav Systems LLC electric drivetrain ideology having two electric motors in a single unit for rear-end installation on vehicles, they also have in wheel-hub electric motors for the front if you want four wheel drive thats part of their plan with computing to manage the share of the load for both motor types. Another possibility for front-end drive vehicles is to have it both ways so it then combines to a Hybrid using the rear-end motors and keeping the engine but you may have to alter the fuel tank version. The only thing I find possibly troublesome is that the rear-end unit has no cooling system other than air cooling itself and I believe it could be made of plastic instead of a metal cutting back on the weight of the vehicle. It would be up to a manufacturer to make such a device which had a cooling system and the unit be made of plastic as that would be a ultimate for all America's vehicles already owned to convert from ICE.

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#40
In reply to #26

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 12:28 PM

Hello dieselphil,

Blaming the wind energy industry is rather lame for improper placement of a turbine.

We have minimum 12mph wind at 100' every day all the time

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#78
In reply to #40

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/20/2008 6:47 AM

Hi,

you must have missed my point somewhere / somehow - I do not throw blame about it just wastes energy

the point I was making is that INAPPROPRIATELY applied / used technology (whether originally intended to be "green" or not) wastes energy and resources - we all need to be sure of things before investing heavily in something that may turn out to be a lame duck - although, of course, experiments always need to be made to gather data before any decision can be made as to the appropriateness of any technology

of course understanding the theory properly is vital to cut the number of experiments and get-rich-quick companies always want to jump on the bandwaggon and spoil it for the rest of us, by spreading confusion, half-truths and downright lies

best regards, dieselphil

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#79
In reply to #78

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/20/2008 9:52 AM

Hi DieselPhil,

I understand your concern. I have not always down my engineering right the first time, in many cases, since I did not really understand the problem, exactly.

Tough experiences has made me to be more careful, and I can now see the greatness of the forest, instead of the trees.

After many bad experiences, I just learned, if I am not right the first time, I will eventually get the right answer. I never give up.

I have started a new blog today, and that is, "Does anyone know the "reverse engiineerong" solution for UFO propulsion systems? I know.

DRS

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#80
In reply to #79

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/20/2008 10:07 AM

DS, what happened to your new thread? I saw it there this morning, and now I can't find it.

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#81
In reply to #80

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/20/2008 12:02 PM

Bricktop,

I put the ? in the General Section.

DRS

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#82
In reply to #81

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/20/2008 12:36 PM

Well, I looked there too, and still can't find it.

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#83
In reply to #82

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/20/2008 9:07 PM

We are asking the CR4 crowd if there is anyone familiar with the "reverse engineering" of the UFO propulsion systems?

I have a Mufon friend who has the design of such a system called EFTV, as described by "Energy From The Vacuum", by Dr. Tom Bearden, Chapter 4. His premise is, "the vacuum of space is not inert and featureless, but alive with throbbing energy". The energy field of the vacuum is somewhat similar to the effects of magnetic fields to speeding electrons.

This power system is known by the Federal Governmnet, but like so many other advanced science phenomennon, if is classied as TS. I know that once these new physics principle are released for public interest, that energy issues will change a lot.

I am using this venue to see how many others know about UFO Engineering and technology.

DRS

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#84
In reply to #83

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/20/2008 10:00 PM

Hello Daylight RS Company

I have checked through all your Topics and Posts a short while ago, and your Topic does not appear anywhere at

I have also thoroughly checked out the Tom Bearden Website, and all the hyperlinks to "over unity machines", "free energy", and various other information appended thereto.

If you have any real understanding of energy in all its forms, along with basic scientific principles, you must by now realize that such "something for nothing" energy or "Puts out 100 times more energy than is put in", just is impossible.

But perhaps all these things work via a constant and continuous succession of instantaneous miracles.

Now I do not decry genuine miracles, having seen some myself, and also experienced personally a few.

However, the weblinks are delightfully vague, showing really nothing definite unless it is bought and paid for via DVD etc.

So it would appear that Admin have done the same, checked it out too, and made your Topic invisible or deleted it.

I am not one to waste irrecoverable amounts of my lifespan on fruitless chasing after the "free energy pot of gold at the end of the rainbow".

I do understand that in this physical construction we perceive as the created universe, there are various Laws, which we call "Laws of thermodynamics", Laws of Electricity", "Laws of Magnetism", Laws of Conservation of Energy", and so much more.

It is not wise or sensible to waste effort on an impossibility.

I trust you accept this reply in the spirit I wrote it, to help you, so that you may place efforts in a more useful area of research.

Kind Regards....

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#85
In reply to #84

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/20/2008 10:09 PM

Learn more about EFTV at Dr. Bearden's website, www.cheniere.org

Best Regards,

DRS

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#86
In reply to #84

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/20/2008 10:21 PM

Dear Sparkstation,

You are correct in that the propulion system of a UFO defies many of the classical laws of physics, but rational thinking is challeneged by the awesome acceleration of UFO's in many observations.

One such observation has been released by Britesh Intellegence to the public media, via Fox News Website (today) with respect to challenge a UFO flying? over Britan.

Refer to Dr. Beardens paper, entitled, "Engineering the Active Vacuum", on the Asymmetrical Aharonov-Bohm Effect and Magnetic Vector Potential "A" v.s. Magnetic Field "B".

Best Regards,

DRS

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#96
In reply to #78

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/27/2008 11:07 AM

Yes I suppose I did miss your point probably right in the area you were explaining waste of wind resources

I don't give a hoot if other's disqualify any way my use of energy benefits me

If it benefits me - It needs qualify as efficient, effective and appropriate for everyone.

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#29

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 7:00 AM

How about just putting a small generator on the back of a golf cart. Batteries to be charged while waiting for light to change. The generator could be set to run at max efficiency or just idle. Good enough for local shopping, in town, kids to school. It would suit me as the second car in the house I think.

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 7:38 AM

I like your idea. It is one way to bypass the automakers. I would prefer a stronger structure around my bod though. Also something to keep the weather out. At least a roll bar, and jeep type canvas. How complicated would it be to set up your generator? Honda makes some very small and quiet generators.

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#34

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 10:22 AM

Alternative Energies are also Destructive and Evil

How can Alternative Energies be good when they require materials that originated from places that all environmentalists say are "evil and destructive"? Alternative Energies require "bad" materials for assembly, such as ceramics, carbons, and metals from Mines, and sometimes plastics and other carbon-based materials, which originate from Oil Wells and Coal mines that environmental groups say are all "evil and destructive". Even "natural" plant fiber materials require machinery and processing and transportation, which also require metals, ceramics, and carbon.

From where do we get the SOURCE materials for wind mills, fuel cells, hydrogen and other alternative energies? Most solar electric panels require ceramics and special elements, such as gallium, arsenic, germanium, etc., that came from mines and smelters. Windmills require metals (originally from mines and smelters). Passive and active solar ventilation and tubing for houses usually require metals and sometimes ceramics, which came from mines and smelters.

Environmental groups say that ALL Mining and Oil / Gas Wells are "bad" and "evil", even with full-scale reclamations and restorations. So how can we go to Alternative Energies when these requires materials that are not accepted by the Environmentalists?

Even fuel cells require materials originally from mines and smelters. Fuel cells have to have metals and / or ceramics for the containment, tubing, chemical reactions, etc. The cells, containments and associated materials use materials from mines and oil wells. Think about the engineered things used to even make hydrogen fuel get started for producing energy.

Look at the Periodic Table of all the elements of the earth. Hydrogen (H2) is a usually a gas. When hydrogen is used in a chemical bonding or mixture, it is usually released as a single free ion (H- or H+). Sometimes getters are used to store and transport hydrogen.

It is the cells and containments and associated materials that use materials from mines and oil wells. Go and look at the engineered things used to even make hydrogen get started!

To make Hydrogen "burn" and gain energy from it, there must be the chambers, vessels, tubing, connections and fittings. A characteristic of Hydrogen is that is can embrittle materials over time, especially certain types of metals and steels. Normally stainless steels or other specialty metals are used for most Hydrogen activities. These steels and steels are composed of iron and sometimes chromium and / or nickel to control any corrosion from Hydrogen and also prevent embrittlement as much as possible. The materials for steels ALL come from mines and smelters.

But how is hydrogen (H2 and the H ions) produced from water or other source materials? Either in the reaction apparatus and chambers of the cars or else in processing plants, both of which use metals and ceramics and plastics. If we get H2 from the air, we get it from gas separators which are composed of metals and other "bad" materials.

Environmentalist point to bicycles as environmentally-friendly transportation. To make bicycles, manufacturers must get materials that originated from mining operations (iron, molybdenum, aluminum, ceramics, etc.), oil wells and coal mines for Carbon and plastic materials, and sometime timber for wood. These materials are then processed in plants that also use products from mining and oil wells, and use electricity. How can this be "good" by any environmentalist's definitions?

Look at how many existing Wilderness Areas have abandoned oil / gas wells and also mining sites within their boundaries. Why is that permissible? How is it that reclamations of well drilling sites are either ignored or denied by the environmental groups now? There have been many private groups in the Pacific Northwest (like my grade school in the 1960's) that went out and planted trees, grass, and shrubs in the forests. We even saw some of the lumber companies replanting trees and shrubs. But apparently, none of those good efforts count in the mind of the environmental groups, as seen in recent publications and notifications.

Take a deeper look at what really is going on. Natural resources are needed for everything in our lives, even medical items and alternative energies. But when our natural resources are being closed up and as reclamations are either ignored or badmouthed, we are loosing the materials needed for our daily lives, even for the "nice" Alternative Energies. As a final note, my 1990 car gets the same gas mileage GPM as a modern hybrid car. Go figure.

In a publication from early 1992, the Sierra Club in Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA, openly announced that oil / gas well drillers were still using lead-based (Pb) lubricants. Never mind that the EPA banned their use several years before in the mid-1980s and that the drilling industry had already switched to biodegradable lubricants even before that. Never mind that law enforcement and the EPA later on checked for compliance in the industry. Also, there is new drilling technology, called Coiled Tubing, that allows certain types of well drilling operations from the back of a pickup, thus less impacts than the vehicles you drive. Why don't we don't hear that from the Environmentalists.

Are you familiar with the wilderness near Ruidoso, NM, USA? The wilderness boundaries "captured" some gold and silver / lead mines. The government threatened to sue the mine and claim owners with EPA Superfund status if they did not surrender the land for wilderness designation. Now how is it that places that are supposedly EPA Superfund sites can now be "wilderness" and untouched areas? The 1964 Wilderness Act specified that undeveloped, untouched, and natural areas were to be part of the wilderness areas.

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Now living in Kansas

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#36
In reply to #34

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 11:14 AM

Hi Cafrench,

We have something in common.

I worked on two projects at LASL. My brother directed the detox project at Rocky Mountain Nuclear Facility.

I designed a lifting mechanism to install two 135 ton magnets at the LA MESON Facility in 1975. I also installed the top magnet myself, due to a conflict with Heede International. We were also invited to remove the prototype nuclear plant for subs that was covered by tons of concrete blocks.

What did you do at LASL?

I am curious as to how you woukl support 300M Americans without technology.

Gabe Mayr

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#72
In reply to #36

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/09/2008 8:22 PM

I am retired from there, and now work for another company. Had some good days there, though.

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#45
In reply to #34

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 2:36 PM

We always need to find a balance between needed productivity, and preserving the environment. We should always try to use the most appropriate methods. Those that are not as polluting as others are. Of course the best plans are open to debate, and cost benefits must be taken into consideration. I realize that many environmentalists are extreme and unreasonable. That does not mean that environmentalism is not necessary and vital. My grandparents lived in White Oaks before it became a ghost town, that is now rebuilding. It is a few miles from Ruidoso, NM. None that area is real wilderness now, but it is beautiful, and worth preserving. I like the multiple use philosophy of the National Forest System. It is supposed to allow for mineral, oil, timber and agricultural use. It is also supposed to preserve the most beautiful areas, and not allow permanent destruction of the areas. In many cases industry has been allowed to abuse the land, in other areas, not so much. There will always be political wrangling. That is the way it always has been, and should be. This is a representative democracy.

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#48
In reply to #34

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 5:19 PM

Hi cafrench,

Can we separate the environmental terrorist from the paid demonstrator or should we?

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#55
In reply to #34

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/08/2008 3:29 AM

Scientists do not fear the unknown or did you just figure that out? Solar cells, LCD Television, computer LCD Monitors all bear chemical manufacturing materials which are not abundant on earth, they are rare and so mankind has found ways to make they in laboratories and most these are in Canada and their price is very high for the pure elements and ships in several sizes. After enlisting the idea of needing a laboratory and elements to either create or repair fuel-cells I soon learned of the high fixed price for the elements which are used in the fuel-cells similar to the solar and LCD devices and for unknown purposes I can't see how so many products can be derived and a profit be made knowing the fixed prices would over budget any company. Amazing I think so much is owed to those whom have learned to grow crystalline elements and prosper their companies but why don't they learn to share their purpose. I mean why don't they go on a tour of all the states and have each state begin the processing for their operations and make it ever more abundant for everything needed and decrease shipping costs as it would exist then in every state to manufacture with if that became a interest.

If it were not for mankind's progress in technology there might not be any animals and if mankind never made some change to yield Zero Emission of CO2 there might not be a mankind but mankind is smart and clever to forget about what might not exist and move forward so that it will exist. This is a everyday thing, jobs support what it is to exist and many people want the economy to trickle their way so they bark louder and sometimes this gets their attention and laws and bills to support their purpose brings them out of their meek financial burden that they slack off barking 50% but still believe they must bark to make others realize the way is being supported and that means enlarging their purpose. So now a coalition begins to form and five years latter the barking starts again to try again to get funded. Sometimes it works and sometimes it don't.

Hydrogen module membranes are single cells that separate the gas now in fuel-cells, there is no burning of Hydrogen. Fuel-cells can either generate electricity or store electricity and those which do both at the same time have higher costs to manufacture demanding more and more rare earth elements. Hydrogen and Oxygen are cheap from electrolysis using a ordinary battery and makeshift wiring to a anode and cathode in water or a electrolyte, nothing spectacular. The more cells doing this the better the output but your not getting quality Hydrogen unless you have a membrane to pass this Hydrogen through, some are made of paper and some are made of cloth while newer ones are made of glass and plastic, this creates only Hydrogen element as the output and when you do that you got quality to sell otherwise your selling polluted Hydrogen gas and that is like Brown Gas, or more commonly known as a swamp gas or a natural gas.

If you were to start burning Hydrogen in your vehicle without altering the piston chamber, the piston head, the piston rings, the spark plug then your asking for trouble. For a ICE to burn Hydrogen special ceramics are used to coat these surfaces and plugs that last forever using platinum and titanium.

Environmentalist's that prey on fallacy of technology cannot get very far, like for instance there are precision instruments the are in use by environmentalist's which test PH factor of soil and water and just about everything including gasoline testing are done by them and drinking water analysis for the EPA which requires water to maintain certain quality standards and if not then they alert everyone and the ordeal to change it must occur else the water be terminated as a source. It is certainly important to the livelihood of all living things that they are keen and up to the task of reality checks cause if they are not they could consume cancerous chemicals and be like the rest of the population in just a short time they to would die. So yes the job is a tremendous effort to comply to mother nature and mankind's mistakes. Environmental Groups are nothing but barking organizations attempting to gain the respect some other have done in the past. While it might seem bad for some certainties suppose the elimination of some animals were necessary to remove them from the food chain because they were proven to have cancer and it would spread to mankind, is that so bad to realize, if environmentalist's did not observe they to might succumb to the truth that they did not know and were complaining about adversely which would have caused many more to die but perhaps not them because the animal was not one of their food chain likings?

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#46

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 4:16 PM

It will help if we generate the electricity at home and use the waste heat from the generator to heat our water and home. Otherwise, by the time you generate the electricity at a central powerplant with half the energy going down a river or into a lake, then transmit the electricity to your house and recharge the battery the net use of energy is not any better. You can use coal or nuclear instead of gasoline or diesel however. KenH

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#50

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/07/2008 8:27 PM

Once upon a time, I read a story about a nuclear battery design,

It simply radiates a semiconductor, generating power. It is encased in lead to prevent environmental contamination, and then has an external protector. It has a 5000 year half life. Why can't we make vehicle power like that?

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#51
In reply to #50

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/08/2008 1:41 AM

Because we are entrenched and vision is not accepted...

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#56
In reply to #50

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/08/2008 3:44 AM

Bad idea for farming, milk cows are known as homes for Strontium 90. I suppose you can keep that out of the food chain. How are you going to invert the radiation and control the Hertz or did you like 50Hz or 60Hz or 75Hz better on your LCD? I prefer 75Hz because there is less rolling upward, make a video of your computer screen or a LCD Television and see what the Hertz is and know the difference. a single semiconductor is not going to produce electricity to your needs, you cannot just plug it in as the grid cannot absorb the power properly, you have to have a grid tie-in for that to function properly so the drawing is of low tastes.

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#57
In reply to #56

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/08/2008 8:59 AM

I don't understand... cows.. tv's? Just put it in the lead case... put it in the car, make the connection. drive the car.. you don't have to invert the radiation. the device produces electricity. so invert that, or us DC. anyway.. it is a simple device.. that could solve the problem if some research was put into it. There is no need for grid tie in. There may be a heat problem though.. more research is needed.

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#58
In reply to #50

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/08/2008 9:28 AM
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#98
In reply to #50

Re: The Pickens Plan

06/09/2011 10:01 AM

How much power does it generate, and for how much weight and volume?

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#99
In reply to #98

Re: The Pickens Plan

06/09/2011 1:36 PM

it was a kids book... and didn't give that info... sorry.

but even if it equates to a 9volt... for thousands of years..

we could run our toys till the wheels fall off... not til the battery dies.

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#63

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/09/2008 10:45 AM

I don't believe that you guys accept this as a realistic plan.

Natural gas? It is simply replacing an expensive fuel with an inexpensive fuel which will quickly increase in value as the demand increases. He is using the interest in alternate energy as smoke and mirrors. The Pickens plan is to make Pickens rich.

Wind is a viable source, however, there is more potential energy from things such as tides and the water turbines.

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/09/2008 11:00 AM

OPen you're eyes and read the plan again...

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#66
In reply to #64

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/09/2008 11:18 AM

I read it.

I also read the biography of T Boone Pickens .

What is your point?

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#65
In reply to #63

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/09/2008 11:16 AM

Hi Techno,

The Pickens Plan is designed only as a interim measure until more exoctic non-petro or fossiless fuels are employed. We have a serious CO2 problem (killing our fish populations). So, eventually we will be (better be off) using clean energy wherever we can, including wave and tidal force energy.

Pickens Main Point is that we now import 70% of oil which is bankrupting our nation. This is insanity to spend our wealth needlessly on expensive oil. We are financing the Arabs and our terrorist enemies which is a national emergency. That is the main impitus for change. We do not need to bankrupt anyone because of oil sourced energy.

Alternative Energy is not smoke and mirrors. Germany has enough AE to shut of their fossil fuel power plants, right now. Wind turbines in the US have doubled in two years, and they will double in number every two years in the next decade. We need clean energy from now on, period.

As of today 875,000 intellegent people are members of the Pickens Plan, and he has been talking to both candidates, and they endorse his action.

The Recovery Bill includes massive new incentives for AE industry because of Pickens Plan.

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#67
In reply to #65

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/09/2008 11:29 AM

A 10 year interim plan that will give Mr Pickens 10 years of guaranteed profits in his portfolio. Yes eventually He will be (better be off)

Yes I agree we should be converting to clean energy. But this is too slow a transformation. This should have been done 10 years ago when the problem was identified. The switching to natural gas is questionable.

The plan is too simplified and only supports his futures and energy portfolios.

A better plan would also include the solar farms, hydroelectric, geothermal, and any other viable energy source.

As for the 875,000 intelligent people that endorse his action. That only proves that a lot of desperate people are looking for some sort of a plan. They are too lazy to really study the problem or dig for the real motives of Mr Pickens.

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#68
In reply to #67

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/09/2008 5:46 PM

OK - Does anyone else have a viable plan?

I'm not saying Pickens is right or wrong but, at least he has given this some thought (and money) to at least ID the insane act of throwing money to the middle east.

I agree that his plan may not be the answer but Pickens is making people think and realize that we have made poor decisions in the past and continue to do so.

The sad point is, now that fuel prices are declining a bit, we don't see the action as critical, yet it still remains so...

AND, if he can make money and it allows us to independent from the extremists, well, I'd rather give it to him than to them...

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#74
In reply to #68

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/10/2008 10:19 AM

Agreed,

Unfortunately, I see that none of your politicians have any real leadership abilities or there would be other plans(viable or not), visions, or environmental platforms that address the real problems.

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#69
In reply to #67

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/09/2008 5:56 PM

Yes I agree we need a better plan and until we have a better plan we should go forward with the best we have.

We are discussing The Pickens Plan and we are not excluding concurrent development of all other viable AE medium.

Do you have a better plan? Out with it, step up!

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#73
In reply to #67

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/09/2008 8:30 PM

Pickens is also recommending that solar be used. Especially solar thermal in the Southwest. Nothing about the Pickens plan obviates the use of any other form of energy. We need it all: biomass, thermal and photovoltaic solar, biomass, geothermal, hydro et all. Plus we need to phase out ICEs for local passenger use, and go to electric vehicles. While building other systems, we can get all the "natural" gas we need from shale oil and depleted oil wells. We can also sell LNG to Europe.

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#87
In reply to #63

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/20/2008 10:54 PM

We are not just dealing with two fuels. We are creating a variety of fuels in various locales, according to what is available. They will all compete for part of the market. Electrical generation is the common denominator. Think biofuels in the largest sense, wind turbines, thermal solar, photovoltaic solar, tidal and wave energy, micro-hydro, geothermal, coal gasification, shale oil and sands development, clean coal etc. Crude oil and natural gas are just two players in the game. Various technologies will evolve in the competition. The end is not predictable. I would bet that photovoltaic solar will be the eventual winner. That it will take over the majority of production. Hydrogen is just a medium produced through electricity. I don't favor nuclear power because of the safety issues. Both for the reactors being open to attack, and no consensus on what to do with the radioactive waste. Waste that will be dangerous for longer than our civilization may last.

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#88
In reply to #87

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/20/2008 11:50 PM

Dear Ronwagn,

I respect your reasoning to come to a diversified energy resource package.

I am amazed at the new kind of Horizontal Gas Well technology (10,000 feet horizontal gas well) which allows production to massive gas bearing formations, but with limited thicknesses. This technology expands our Methane production capacity by ten-fold or more.

I was an oil-well mud logger for four years, including the North Slope, and we were developing oil wells with directional drilling technology in the 60's. At that time, there were massive oil shale formations extending across the whole midwest, but the Anadarko formation was thin but massive.

The Pickens Plan has one premise, "We must cut our dependence on foriegn oil, completely." Any knowedgable engineer knows that we have the technology to become totally energy independent, and with Solar Alternatives, we are looking at a secure (infinite) energy resource. Not many people will accept this "change", but we must.

Picken's knows this, and he is seeking the consensus of the engineering community, and he is preparing to bury the OIL LOBBY which has had a stranle hold on developing AE for decades. Engineers, Please,"Join the Picken's Plan."

Respectfully Submitted,

DRS

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#89
In reply to #88

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/23/2008 7:50 AM

Hello CR4 World,

Are you telling me that there is no one else out there who knows about UFO propulsion technology?

Well, I will try again, "Does the Maxwell Theory of Lights consider the photon to be a particle or is it wave energy?"

Grieving,

Photon Phreak

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#90
In reply to #89

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/23/2008 8:13 AM

hello daylight,

i am open to reading about it, but i am not a trained in engineering or physics.

people here know of it. due to their training, they just do not believe it, until it is proven. most of Maxwell's theorys were condensed or deleted at the beginning of modern engineering. therefore, they were never trained beyond todays 4 "Maxwell theorms". therefore they do not believe the rest. it is a black or white thing. modern engineering believes that if are talking "free energy", you are a fraud.

so, unless you have proof that will withstand rigourous examination and testing, you will do better to try other forums.

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#91
In reply to #89

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/23/2008 8:21 AM

Wave–particle duality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality

"Are you telling me that there is no one else out there who knows about UFO propulsion technology?"

UFOs are all in mind of the beholder.

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I go into every human encounter expecting to be framed for a crime I didn't commit. Dilbert, 2013
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#92
In reply to #91

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/23/2008 10:05 AM

Hi Bricktop,

Thanks for the nice reference to the "duality theory of light". No mention of Maxwell, though. I 'm trying to find my old Freshman physics book, where I first learned about Maxwell.

I like to think I learn something new (especially if it is the truth) every day.

I witnessed my first UFO while dove hunting, with five others in West Texas. We watched as some kind of object zigzagged across the sky with apparently incredible speed. My Mufon friend grew up in Corona, New Mexico (were college classmates), and his Dad was at the clean-up of the UFO "Rroswell Incident" between Corona and Roswell in 1947. I have had my hands on a scrap of that ship, that he showed me. Wierd stuff.

I attended the 50th UFO Conference in 2007, in Roswell ( I live near Tularosa which is 80 miles west of Roswell), and I am a believer of God too, since I see miracles every day. That is why I believe the Pickens Plan makes sense. We need a real miracle to clean up Washington.

I do not believe anything I hear, nor half of what I see. I guess that was why I had trouble with differntial equations.

Best wishes,

Photon Phreak

We cannot see the forest, since the trees get in the way.

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#93

Re: The Pickens Plan

10/24/2008 6:40 PM

Hi Pickens Plan,

There is another thread going on CR4called "Where are all the Hydrogen Cars?".

You should check it out, since the latest comments out there are numbing, and it just illiustrates just how wacko humans can be.

Vote for Obama is like voting for "losing your mind and your liberties". He is a registered Socialist? Want to hear more?

Photon Phreak

Cheers,

Photon Phreak

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#97
In reply to #93

Re: The Pickens Plan

11/11/2008 11:05 AM

Hi Engineers,

I have moved to the blog discussion, "Using technology, or does it use you".

Bset Regards,

Photon Phreak

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