Air as a Source of Energy

Once I have heard that "a skeptic is one with a preconvinced idea", but still there are some who at least understand logic. But you two are 'over and above' all that I have meet previously. If there is any technology, that can train molecule, I will refer that to train the protein molecules of the brain of aurizon so that his logical thinking power would increase. But, it is satisfactory to me that you have no logical answer to my postings. The way you are behaving is now the same way as people behave, when in their mind they came to know that logically they have failed and the reason aginst their argument is stronger but their subconscious denied the fact. This is very common human psychology.

No Comment

Please refer to post #78. I am a practical man, and this has now become a practical problem. You really need more than just theoretical calculations to get this system of yours of the ground. As to the technology, remember all/most of it (for all the different parts of the system) is already patented, it really is only how they interact the way you think/say they interact that is patentable.

From this point on I believe you will learn and achieve more towards your goals from spending (say) 2 months building a cheap mock up prototype out of spare parts than you will from more research and professional (expensive) prototypes. Remember, you don't need to build the whole system, split it up into the different system modules and build a few of those, after all it is the interaction you are trying to prove from theoretical calculations, not the modules themselves (which have already been proven). Scale the system down in size if you have to, it should still give you the same result.

I am not familiar with your University system over in India. Do you have the option of using the University's resources (labs, machine shops, mechanical and electrical engineering students for assistance/labor, etc) to build your prototype? How about a University grant perhaps?

Look forward to reading the comments, as for me I am off to commission a new 33kV wind farm.

Good for you Jack of all Trades, I presume those silly New Zealand Regulations that prevailed in the 1980's have been consigned to the 'round filing cabinet'. As I recall a successful lobby by the Utility had made 'Wind Farms' practically illegal.

Oh well, the wind may not be perpetual, but it is reliable. The advice you gave Pranab, as I posted before, is exemplary. I might like to start a thread on evaporative enthalpy of dilution power from 'low relative humidity air' I can start by hanging my laundry out to dry, weighing it before and after with relative humidity/temperature etc. data. What an enjoyable Science Project for Kids. () Might gain support? Who Knows? Maybe we might have a chat with the Indian High Commission?

LOL, its worse now. Wind farms are ok as long as they are not near residential areas (they make surprisingly a hell of a lot noise when the blades are turning), recently there were bids for about 6 separate new wind farms. Main problem they dont actually produce that much power, and the environmentalists wont allow us to build more hydro plants (slightly warmer temperature MAY be causing local fish deaths), or use coal plants (oh, the black clouds of death). Nuclear was even briefly considered, but when an expert was asked where the safest place to put a nuclear plant was, he replied 'Australia'. I don't know, perhaps the general public think we engineers can just pull watts out of our asses!

In addition, much of our infrastructure is 50 years old and needs upgrading, including the main HV backbone running the length of the country. Problem is it is being blocked and debated by the farmers (whose farms the pylons will run thru), the environmentalists, and about 20 different local body councils that it will run thru. Talk about red tape!

Got to laugh thou, this new wind farm is near Wellington (where our Parliament resides). Should get a lot of power out of this one (finally a use for politicians and their debating).

ROFL.

Groan , I looked at those regulations about twenty years ago, a friend from New Zealand asked me if there might be a way round it. i.e. an invisible windmill that would not be noticed. "Put up a fake tree, with thousands of little green propellers" was one idea. "Build an odd looking 'Hay Stack' that funnelled the wind to an internal turbine" was another. His dairy farm was way out in the sticks, nobody could reasonably object, but still he was required to jump through hoops. A neighbour had been told to dismantle a wind turbine or face prosecution. The best disguise for a windmill that I have seen featured recently on a TV program here in UK. There was this lake, and locals became curious as to why three boats were constantly sailing round in circles. LOL.

Art could come to the rescue, just say you are an 'Objet Trouve Sculptor' a follower of Marcel Duchamp. If they scrap old aircraft in New Zealand, perhaps a series of aircraft wings suitably mounted aloft could train the wind to a ground level turbine secreted in a barn or shed? if asked say "Why without 'amps' how could I pay homage to Duch-amp. I sympathize with Pranab about the lack of scrap material in India, but nothing manufactured lasts forever. India is a vast country. OK salvage may go in a flash, but a bit of advance planning and he might be able to borrow all sorts of stuff. A local dairy farm just a short walk from me has a yard piled up with fan assisted cross-flow heat exchangers. The farmer intends to heat his cow's barn this winter with a heat pump run off an old diesel engine. He has a salvaged rotary screw compressor for this purpose, and plans to run the engine on old cooking oil. I reckon his cows will be warm as toast this winter. The heat off the exhaust will keep the bathwater hot.

What Pranab needs is a bit of Co-operation......Mmmm....and information ...I wonder? .....HORACE PLUNKETT ­ A Man Ahead of His Time .... now what was the name of my best man's mum's maiden name? 'Neelia' i.e. Eileen backwards

Granny Eileen lived here..http://www.luttrellstown.ie/ Happy Days!

http://www.plunkett.co.uk/framesets/index_whatwedo.html

Ooops..."now what was the name of my best man's mum's maiden name? ...At Wellington College, I would have been sent up to the House Master for such clumsy grammer! "What was my best man's mum's maiden name?"... that's better....Oh yes Jade Jagger of Yoo Ltd. can ask her dad about the gig he did at Luttrellstown Castle. way back in the 1960's. Happy Days (also if reading this thread, pass on our condolences to Mick.)

Jack of all trades, you wrote, "How about a University grant perhaps?"......mmmmm.

If Pranab is reading this, I have news. They may be just about to spend $2,000,000,000 on the new OTEC ? http://www.seasolarpower.com/images/slides/Slide16.GIF

A persistent fellow like our friend Pranab, with his counter intuitive cross-flow heat exchange ideas, may be just what is needed to sharpen the wits of the engineers. OTEC has a Carnot efficiency of 7% and achieves 2.5% so the Figure of Merit for the system 'Z' is about 0.3......any improvement on that could make a justification for the $2 Billion Project viable. so far it is not justified on the grounds of Pay-Back forecasts. Even if Pranab is in error, he certainly knows how to stimulate debate, but less of the 'Ad Homonym' remarks please Mr. Ghosh. you will fall at the first hurdle with those.

They could probably increse the efficiency of these machine by using a larger perimeter with wave action pumps to move the cold water from the depths. I think they would need to insulate the rising tubes with a couple of inches of glass microballoon insulation as inwards heat leakage would be a problem. They should also use large diameter-low velocity of flow tubes to reduce head loss. A survey to find any seamount that is saddle shaped and brings the 40F water closer than 3000 feet down would also help.

I think this method can be worried into profibaility

Glass micro-balloons are ever 'music' to my ears.(hours of fun with 'packing law' formulae and cement) There are heaps of funds for a project like OTEC. Ethical Banking has been a trendy way to stash your millions for yonks now. These pop stars and glitteratzi need to demonstrate they 'care'. Their millions of fans, follow every move, it must be like living in a fish tank or goldfish bowl. The poor banks are desperate to invest all these trillions of dollars in genuine ethical projects, that also are safe investments. There are countless unsafe ethical investments that they can't touch.

Postscript:- A slight digression on the 'packing law' subject, two decades ago a colleague asked me if a specialist epoxy resin from BASF was strong? "Let's find out" I said.....So we mixed a sample of standard Fullham Pottery modelling clay(reduced to dry powder) with the epoxy at about 15/1 by weight (15 parts clay) then rolled a ball the size of a marble. My colleague was an athletic heavyweight, and after an hours cure in the oven, I placed the ball on a large granite block, and gave him a five pound club hammer, "Now try to break that" I challenged, "Why are did you put a sand bag in the way? " he asked,..... "Just put these goggles on, you might break it."

So he took the mightiest swipe at it he was able to (wearing leather gloves) The ball shot out like it was from a cannon. "Look you have managed to bruise it, but you just weren't trying, give it a proper blow this time" .....He did with even more spectacular results..."Look you have made another bruise"... "you seem to have got the hang of it, now let's try with a 7 pound sledge hammer"......... "NO THANKS Alastair, I believe you this is strong glue"...."The Packing Law at work!"

By Golly Gosh we missed the boat (round-n-round)

Has James Cecil Scott Moores Completed his Camberwell Art School Project 'Time Machine' yet? (Littlewoods Re:- Sir John Moores bequest) Set The Tardis 4 the 14th instant.

INTERMEDIATE TECHNOLOGY??????????????????????

http://www.britainexpress.com/royals/charles.htm

Well, if you need an insulation factor that will survive pressure at great depths, then glass micro balllons are the way to go. Remember foam crushes.

Depending on the grade they can withstand the pressure of the deeps

Concurr

I am very much sanguine that the reverse flow heat exchange will certainly increase the efficiency of open-cycle OTEC and make it not just competative, but winner over conventional thermal power plants. BUT, THE PROBLEM IS LIKE OTHER HIGHLY PAID ENGINEERS, OTEC ENGINEERS HAVE TOO THE HABIT OF OVERLOOKING ANY IDEA THAT IS NOT THOUGHT BY THEM, THE NIH (NOT INVENTED HERE) FACTOR. Can you help me to overcome this factor by any means, as per my experience, they just wouldn't respond and the debate wouldn't just get started.

pranabjyoti: you are not willing to learn. To see far, stand on the shoulders of giants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants

In effect you have a little graphics and no understanding of what goes on.

You can see how silly it is for a man to have a car with no engine as he lives uphill from his workplace....he just gets in, releases the brake, and rides to work. To get home he goes by another route that is also downhill, and as you can see, needs no engine. Obviously in a non escherian world this cannot be done or we could all have free power by making use of this principal.

So if someone came to you with this way to go to and fro to work and back for free, would he fool you and be able to sell you the cars he makes, leaving it to you to find the two routes. I believe you might buy this car and spend your life poring over maps to find the two routes...

That is what your machine does, one part will produce energy but there is no way to return to that point without adding energy (plus more to countervail losses).

So we look at this and instantly see the flaw in it, a flaw you cannot see, because you have an enduring failure to understand the real world that does not have these two routes whereby you can get free energy..

Pranab, you asked If I could overcome OTEC Engineer's habit of overlooking any idea that is not thought by them?

May I please enquire from you the name or names of these engineers, you can send it to me in a private message, and I will contact the engineer/engineers myself. I am not personally aware of the 'habit' described as 'NIH' at any Lockheed Martin Project, but if your observations are revealed to be correct, then the matter should be discussed at Board Level, and I will submit the matter for inclusion at an appropriate Lockheed Board meeting, on your behalf. You could write to Mr. Robert J. Stevens yourself. in January 1998 Bob Stevens was appointed Director of Lockheed Martin's Energy and Environment Sector. He will know a great deal about the OTEC project.

Quote:- "Born in McKeesport, Pennsylvania, Stevens is a summa cum laude graduate of Slippery Rock University. He earned a master's degree in engineering from the Polytechnic University of New York and a master's degree in business from Columbia University."...and now he is Chairman and President.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/findPage.do?dsp=fec&ci=11958&rsbci=0&fti=0&ti=0&sc=400

He sounds to me like a very nice fellow. I see no earthly reason why he would not be interested in any suggested improvements to a project so close to his heart. The Corporation of which he is President would be negligent not to examine any proposals honestly submitted.

One word of caution, Lockheed Martin are a respectable corporation, asking them to sign a confidentiality agreement would, in my view be an atrocious discourtesy. DO NOT DO IT. it is highly insulting. and very rude. Just request your information is held in confidence. not before you send it.....when you send it. i.e. write the single word 'CONFIDENTIAL' at the head of the paper, and keep a photocopy for your records.

New, out of sight, underground wind turbines, make trillions

If I was able to use the university resources, then probably, not probably but certainly I will be able to start this discussion that this is tested and practically proved.

4 Pranab:- http://cwis.livjm.ac.uk/history/

Poor Charles, What a terrible Ordeal Hill House Eh!

http://www.wellington-college.berks.sch.uk/page.aspx?id=146

GROAN! & Condolences

Check out "Intermediate Technologies" President ??????....C?????S

Dear Pranab, a word, our good friend Che Guevara http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara

Had it in mind, Vis-a-vis Armageddon.... to "Bring it On" Reduce the Human Population to a few thousand and start all over. He managed to convince The Soviet Authorities that this course of action was 'Highly Desirable' Prince Charles went to Hill House preparitory School Knightsbridge London, That would have been bad enough, but had he gone on to Hill House Wellington College, Armageddon would have been estimated to be a virtual certainty. All we did at Wellington, was prepare for the event!

Bull-Shit, is a useful fertiliser. but always bear in mind that fertilizer needs to be well dug in. lest it burn the roots of delicate germinating seed crops.

Another Film worth watching is "Armageddon" co-produced by Lucinda Nee Wallop. sister to Quentin Wallop Earl of Portsmouth (Sir Isaac Newton Muniments) You expressed enthusiasm for staring in a Film, Lucinda (2 AM Productions & Stink Films) may??? follow events as they unfold, and decide if a remake of '"Springtime for Hitler" is in any way desirable. Quentin's Estate Office is +44 (0) 1256321026 You may like to view the Sanskrit Mathematical Texts in Quentin's care? Sir Isaac Newton gained much inspiration from 'KALANAKALANAYAAM' The Vedic Differential Calculus, brought over to England by the East India Company.

There is a 'Job' opportunity related to cross-flow heat exchange & vacuum pumps, Professor Ian Fells may???? require an assistant in India to forward a project??? ...keep in touch please.(it is a very worthwhile project)

Armageddon sick if this train of thought

Concurr!

Cheer Up Aurizon, We have all worked out a much better 'Alternative Suggestion'

I was Chairman of the Wellington College Debating Society,...( the only way to shut me up).... and with a little help from the British Interplanetary Society, ....A bunch of loonies if ever you saw some?... we managed to defeat the pessimists and declared our goal. Reach for the Stars This time round. Let's Go 4 It (P.S. support from the Head Prefect, Re:- Best Man Micheal Brinsley De Las Casas, was crucial, and also a Royal Prince from ????) P.S. Micheal not Michael. 'ea' after 'c' Plunket joke!

Per Ardua Ad Astra...is that how you defeated them?

You will have to talk to Tim Taylor Esq. CEO of Red Scar Industrial Coatings Ltd. Dear old George & Albert Cohen have reached the stars, Their Company the Cohen 600 Group lives on, (one of the oldest listed on the London Stock Exchange) Tim's little barge on the Leeds Liverpool Canal is named 'AD ASTRA' We are few, but together we are many!

Well, over here in Canada, the RCAF (Canadian RAF) uses that as it's motto.

Through Adversity to the Stars, some say Through Struggles....

I used to be involved with St Andrew Goldfields, http://www.standrewgoldfields.com/

One day the struggle to complete their web site will be done.

Now I am a retired chemical engineer involved in a gold mining IPO (early 2007)

R.M.P.T.A. Motto "By Example We Lead" Carnegie Motto "Dred God"

Take your pick.( best not follow MY example)

My motto = there is no dog and if there was he is dyslexic

'Excellent Motto' Aurizon and if the 'dog' lacks a sense of humour, he/she/it must be a dull dog indeed!.....Back onto our 'Thread Master's Subject' i.e. "can anybody out there help"....Pranab may or may not be lucky. Goodlock2005 does not pull the punch it did circa the 1980's when, as an unlisted company Goodlock Ltd. it was by all accounts, the most feared company on the London Stock Exchange, largely due to the support of a kindly old gentleman who lived in a mud hut. Mr. Sasakawa of the Nipon Foundation.... Happy Days,...Back to the track, many moons ago(about 65,000 moons ago) a thriving industry existed in India with a product that was valued at greater than diamonds, pearls, rubies or emeralds......"are you reading this Mr. Pranab Jyoti Ghosh?... This industry may or may not be reinstated. Professor Ian Fells may seek advise from the Indian High Commission about recruiting suitable personnel to advance this project. It is very real and not a fantasy. There is a by-product that is very suitable for feeding cows. refrigeration and cross-flow heat exchange etc. will be critical to the success of this project, very dear to a fine gentleman who not so long ago had a major Delhi street renamed after him. Give it some thought Pranab.

As we dog him around he may get the message and analyze his project and see the light. There is a guy who might raise some money for him.

Joe Champion

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=%22Joe+Champion%22+%2Benergy&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Joe Champion Eh! expert in Art-Int & healing applications etc.

Check out BBC Radio 4 Comedy "I am Sorry I haven't a Clue"

Enjoy the redefinitions of The English Vocabulary (constantly on the change)

Artificial Intelligence, may we submit, is a "creative fish hard to catch"

Well, AI is just a matter of time. Sentient AI?? who knows if we will ever make a self aware machine.

As all aspects of human endeavour are bested by machines, and we even best the birds etc, with flight.

In the same manner every aspect of humanity will be exceeded item by item over the next ~30 years and they will learn how to integrate them into a pseudo-sentien embodiment. Call it a turing machine on the other end of a phone line that can fool every possible human. Like the test in Blade Runner where the replicants became so good that they could not be told from humans save by a careful quizzing.

In truth the content addressibility and parallelism of the human brain will be defeted by speed and advances in connectivity so a mcahine can exhaustively explore a reaction tree in less time than a human = you cannot tell it from a person. What happens when they make machines with super IQ's, say 50,000?

What happens when those machines build their next generation to better specs?

What if this has been done and we are watched, but not meddled with, as we would conserve a primitive society.

The only thing that will prvenent machine rule is they will not care!

Forget any three laws of robotics. Combat robots have been built now and have been used in various trials. STill not as good as a trained man, but in time...

Aurizon, just spotted it. Cool. Top Marks. as my Tutor would say "Well done Aurizon, take the afternoon off"

The bane of inventors, is their confounded suspicions, so many of them believe the world is out to cheat them. In fact the so-called invention has a near 99% chance of Prior Art. and even if priority can be established, the actual cost of bringing the invention to market, usually requires vast amounts of capital, an advertising campaign alone can cost millions. Inventors have a tendency to overestimate the value of their invention in monetary terms. I do not think our friend Pranab is aware of a standard Tax 'avoidance' (Not 'illegal evasion') routine. It works like this:- You hand total 'hands off' attorney of your finances to a 'Blind Trust', who just happen to take out insurance on the trust fund so as to ensure in the event of a bad investment, the client will recover their losses.....very prudent.....Then....opps....we need to claim on the insurance, we invested in Perpetual Energy Incorporated....oh well not to worry, an Insurance pay out is free of Tax......gosh how lucky it happened on the last few months of the Trust Fund, if Perpetual had folded a month later, our client, a very influential man would have had to pay a whole lot of tax.......That is not wicked, it is prudence. A man actually wanting to pay tax, needs psychiatric counselling.

Chit-Chat over Pranab, please accept our apologies for off-thread discussions.

Let's see how we can devise a 'Strapped for Cash' ..."Intermediate Technology"

solution to your pressing problem. 'DATA' needed, problem 'NO KIT'

Military Solution. Beg, Borrow, and if you Steal,(Do we have to?) Leave a Funking Chit! with your name and address on it, and an estimation of when the 'stolen' item will be returned (A.K.A. REQUISITION)

Desired outcome a heat conductive tube, I like the word Copper, RMPTA and all that. that contains evaporated wet steam in a partial vacuum.

So first boil the funking Oxygen out of the water, that we need for this experiment. otherwise our vacuum will be spoiled.

Next, B.B.S. (beg, borrow, or steal) a sufficient length of hose pipe. Expense so far nothing, nowt, nix. if we assume the copper pipe is borrowed.

Then fit a 'tap' on the end of the hose pipe. "How much does a sharp stick cost in India Pranab?"...that will suffice for a tap.

Climb some funking stairs, hang pipe & hose over side of building, How High? you ask me Pranab, 'How High' I was told as a lad was a Chinaman. work it out!

Cost so far, Nowt, Nix + a bit of shoe leather.

Fill tube with pre-boiled water, right to the top and put a bung in, is that too complicated for you Pranab?

Walk down stairs and put end of hose in a bucket filled with water, take out tap/sharp stick.....walk back up stairs and discover that by golly gosh the copper pipe is filled with wet steam under partial vacuum.

The next bit is a bit tricky, oh yes I forgot, have the Ambassador sign the prepared confidentiality contract.......Then we will learn the secret of the cross-flow heat exchange/heat pump.....not too clear about that bit Pranab, but I am sure we can work round it with no cost and minimal shoe leather. Regards from the R.M.P.T.A.

I don't have the habit and training of stealing, if you have then kindly write one and send that to me. IF I LIVE NEAR YOU, THEN I CAN PROBABLY MAKE A GOOD OFFER TO YOU AND AURIZON. JUST MAKE A NONSENSE CLUB, YOU TWO ARE VERY GOOD IN SUPPLYING THAT KIND OF MATERIAL AND I THINK THERE WOULD BE CUSTOMERS ENOUGH AROUND. IN MY OPINION, THERE WOULD BE PLENTLY LEFT AFTER TO FUND THE PROJECT EVEN GIVING YOU YOUR SHARE.

Pranab,

Can you read? if so..... then read every comment you have made on this thread, and tell me if every word you wrote was courteous? You have, in my view, made some very disparaging remarks without foundation in either fact or reason.

Pranab, in Post #16, You Wrote:- "Do you know any physicist, who can make a proof of concept by just $200?.... " .......Well?....... "Yes I do Pranab"

And the illustration I gave above was my seemingly fruitless attempt to illustrate how for practically no money at all you could establish a vacuum......You may not be familiar with the University System here in the U.K. but a good tutor tends to give hints, rather than explicit 'instructions' that can so easily be just 'Parroted' back with virtually no understanding of the fundamental concepts involved. HINT... How did the old Mercury barometers work? How high can you draw a syphon? Why is it possible to syphon water higher than the theoretical limit? (THAT Pranab is a BIG hint, indeed theoretical limits are often broken, but NOT BY MUCH) What I attempted to illustrate was an answer to Post #16....... For a kick off you do NOT need to buy a 'Vacuum Pump' our maximum budget you say is $200, let's make that $20. A good physicist could make a proof of concept with a length of string and a lump of stale chewing gum......Believe me. Cross flow heat exchange is not exactly a new phenomenon. So when as in Post # 36 You SHOUT :- "$£5^&&&((&^$... MR HOLLOW GAS BALLOON...££$%^&.....etc. and trumpet to the World what a genius of 'Logic' you are and how if only we had similar powers of Logical Reasoning as yourself, we would understand...... Sorry Pranab, We beg to differ, I am personally very grateful to you and especially 'Aurizon' for drawing my attention to Maxwell's Demon in the context of hollow gas balloons. Indeed I learn that at 'micro' and 'nano' dimensions the models on which the laws of thermodynamics are based, are in need of rectification. At this minute scale 'Brownian Motion' may indeed be a basis for extracting energy from air. THEORETICALLY....I hasten to add. and the amount available is microwatts not megawatts. This could be extremely useful to augment or even power nano scale devices. Let us wait and see.

I have made the remark to aurizon, kindly read the remarks he made, in reply to which the remark is made. From the very beginning, aurizon had started to make nonsense remarks, as far as I can remember, he had not even asked a question yet this days. The remark "cross section of worlds best engineers" isn't mine but his. I have made this technology to work of macro scale, NOT MICRO. If you really think, this can work in a micro scale, then why don't you make a model by yourself and try to patent it. I am assuring you that I wouldn't demand any right of that technology, its unethical for me because it is totally your invention.

Actually being a theoretical mathematician, your problem is that your world is numbers and symbols. BUT, PERHAPS ONCE IT IS KNOWN TO YOU BUT NOW YOU HAVE FORGOT THAT EVERY PHYSICS FORMULAE STARTS WITH ONE OR MORE PRECONDITIONS. You have said that Carnots formulae of c.o.p of a heat pump is universally true, but forgot to notice that it is true only WHEN THERE IS ONLY ONE SOURCE AND ONE SINK. During this period, I have gone through many books and asked some qualified engineers about what will happen if there are more than one sink and the heat is released in multiple steps. Till this days, I haven't got any clear answer. I know well that you also can't answer that properly. As for example, you told me about the universal formulae of c.o.p of heat pumps as lowest temp. divided by temp. difference. But, I have repeated asked you that in case of multiple sinks, the temp. diff. between the source and which sink, the first or the last or the median. I still haven't got any answer from you.

Recently, on an article, I read that once Sir Arthur Eddington, the famous physicist, discarded a paper by S. Chandrashekhar, the indian born and brought up nobel lauriet, now U.S citizen, in which he described the mass limit above which stars will turn into black holes and below which red giants, white dwarfs and others. Later, in 1984 he was awarded Nobel Prize in physics for THIS PAPER. You have just reminded me that the same tradition is going on.

Good Morning Pranab,

You wrote:-"..Till this days, I haven't got any clear answer. But, I have repeated asked you that in case of multiple sinks, the temp. diff. between the source and which sink, the first or the last or the median. I still haven't got any answer from you.. As for example, you told me about the universal formulae of c.o.p of heat pumps...."

" But, I have repeated asked you that in case of multiple sinks, the temp. diff. between the source and which sink, the first or the last or the median. I still haven't got any answer from you."

In Brevitas Pranab, I have repeatedly given you a satisfactory answer.

"It does not make a blind bit of difference" I told you.

I will go further Pranab, The United Kingdom Patent Office were so blooming fed up with constant perpetual motion applications, they actually banned them altogether. It was consuming about half their examiners time. A significant proportion of these applications......we are talking in the thousands Pranab,....involved multi-stacked heat pumps with every conceivable permutation of heat exchange. Some, indeed hundreds of such applications would unquestionably duplicate your proposal. These fellows and you Pranab may????? have stumbled onto a hidden Gem of wisdom. Who Knows.

But as and when someone points out the similarity of your proposal to hundreds or even thousands of almost identical proposals with 'Prior Art' to yours, may I ask "Will you seek their permission first, before disclosing this fabulous secret of all ages to us here at CR4?".....What I am saying Pranab is "Please go to the back of a very long Que!"

You write :-" I know well that you also can't answer that properly"

You know well? do you?

What you should know, is that I am unable to comment on your proposed device without a full and clear description of it. first I have to sign some blooming NDA. I will do no such thing. Rest assured Pranab, if there is any merit in your project, it is you who will receive the credit not me.

It would be very foolish to boast here on CR4 in front of my peers and indeed elders, but at the risk of losing their respect Pranab, may I just say if you would like me to, I can break your project down into individual atoms, and do the heat transfer etc. for each blooming one of them. Would you please allow me to attenuate that proposal to square and cubic millimeters of Copper or whatever. Let us not Forget Reynolds Numbers, or Bernoulli either. We can fill this thread up with so much mathematics folk going onto this thread will run away.

The Points you have made about multiple sinks, in my view is 'Trivial' as far as your simply astonishing claim to raising STP by 300 degrees with a C.O.P. of blow me down with a FN feather 3. T'''R'''EE FN 3...... It is a staggering claim. Are you tapping into the Zero Point Energy Matrix and keeping quiet about it?

Good Morning Pranab. Have a super Day. Keep pestering and pestering till somebody learns you the answer you are looking for. I can only do it mathematically, never mind Carnot, this is a hotch-pot of Carnot and Rankine and all sorts. A tip....learn to do thought experiments. with your Heat pump C.O.P. OF THREE??? for a heat rise of 300 degrees, I guarantee my heat engine of maximum theoretical C.O.P say a Sterling engine with a 75% figure of merit, boy oh boy we should team up Side by side they will run themselves. my heat engine will drive your heat pump. we can start a brickworks , when the air temperature in our kilns reach vitrification temperature i.e. about 1300 Centigrade, all we need is moulds and mud.

Pranab, You really dont need my 'heat engine' your machine in a closed room will just keep on raising the temperature.

Have you worked that one out yet?

All, you need are molds, he will supply the BS for traditional baked BS bricks.

Lord, wot a pong

Difference to what? Kindly give me a reference paper about how multiple sinks doesn't make any diff. to the c.o.p of a heat pump. Perpetual motion machines violates first law of thermodynamics by claiming to create energy out of nothing. In case of my technology, the source of energy is clearly mentioned as ambient heat of atmosphere. So in any sense, it cannot be marked as a perpetual motion machine. Secondly, if anybody thinks that it violates 2nd law of thermodynamics, then please calculate the entropy change of the whole process and show that the entropy of universe is decreased, instead of increasing at the end of the process. You are an applied mathematician, why don't you yourself tried that.

For your information, a technology named HAARP (abbreviation) is already patented in the U.S that the claims to produce energy based on the same principals as mine i.e. extracting atmospheric heat. The U.K patent office may be tired of, but perhaps not the U.S. Kindly search the net about HAARP and I think you will learn a lot more producing electricity by extracting atmospheric heat.

Could you give a better web link than just "HAARP" as there are many different links. The closest I can find that matches your above description (extracting atmospheric heat), but to say that it in any way proves your theory correct or on the right track is flawed. Proof of some of the basics (heat pump physics, etc) is not a validation, especially when you are using them in a way that contradicts known and PROVEN fundamental laws that have never been broken the way you theoretically suggest.

Extraordinary claims (yours) call for extraordinary and overwhelming proof. That is the way of the world and it will not change! Based on all of your comments, your understanding regarding intellectual property, idea protection, NDA's and patents is (for want of a better word) naive. We have all provided enough proof, YOU provide all the facts and proof to back up your fantastic claims (which are currently backed by your incomplete and disjointed proof loosely using standard constants, links to others not even in the same field, NO REAL-WORLD LAB WORK OR TESTS WHATSOEVER and your belief). You have no real world experience in any of the disciplines involved in your development, and as such YOUR WORD CANNOT BE TAKEN AS CREDIBLE WITHOUT FULL AND OVERWELMING PROOF. I have heard your claims and posting of links and mentions of REAL proven experts and I have seen it all before (many times) in the writings of backyard, unskilled pseudo-science inventors, who each year invent a new zero-point energy extractor, cold fusion generator, perpetual magnet generator or heat pump and tell the world about it. This has been going on for hundreds of years. YOUR VOICE IS ONE IN A BACKGROUND OF MANY HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS OF CLAIMS. That is the reality. They ALL failed miserably (another reality). PROVE YOUR CLAIMS!

There are only 3 of us left following your thread (I dread to think of how many HOURS I have personally put into this thread of yours). Here is what I propose - Put your NDA in the thread, we will all print our CR4 user names (it will give your development as much protection as you are realistically going to get in the real world!), and you provide us with all the facts to prove your fantastic claims. Loosely jointed together bits and pieces of theory are not enough!

This is how the real world works, and that is a constant that you cannot change.

Now if you will excuse me I have to get back to my job. Designing and consulting in the power generation and distribution industry (where real Watts are made).

Thank you Jack, and your hours of sacrifice are well noted. Let us hope they are rewarded too. My field is education so this thread is reward in itself. Pranab I fear has not even read our comments with any real understanding. Clearly he is actually desperate to learn why his concept won't work. He has spurned a realistic offer of participating in a project in India potentially funded with several million dollars, albeit a conditional offer, for legal reasons it must be conditional(our dear Pranab would not be permitted to acquire intellectual property rights to every silly daft proposal he made, except upon resignation). Essentially this project has nothing to do with over-unity power generation, instead it is concerned with a perfume related agricultural venture. There is a pharmaceutical dimension as well. Scotland used to ship Whisky to Egypt for this purpose. Chief Per-fumier for Revlon Mr. William Owen the Third, researched all the Hieroglyphic Papyri way back in the 1960's & 70's, The alcohol was used for collecting the perfume. NOT from the dried or harvested flowers, but from the flowers as they grew. the alcohol vapours absorbed the delicate volatile components of the living breathing plant. Alcohol was needed as the minute quantities could not be obtained any other way. The collection had to be performed nocturnally for sensible scientific reasons. Most of these plants are sacred. in fact so sacred that many are under 24/7/365 guard by priests to this day. They will not harm you, but if you harm the plant, they may just commit suicide right in front of you, and that will bring another priest. now he just might kill you if you do not leave fast and never come back. I do not speak from here-say, I have personally witnessed it. Thankfully the two culprits recovered, as they were taken half dead to hospital very rapidly, They only wanted seeds. The Police who attended the incident were very nearly killed themselves, they wanted to remove evidence.....I managed to persuade them to consult with their superintendent. .....I have not got a fiendish plan to dispose of Pranab, by the way.....But cross flow heat exchange, as I have mentioned before is pertinent to this project, that may??? be presented to the Indian High Commission over here. who knows. Pranab could fritter his wages away to his hearts content on over-unity devices.....Now Jack I may get on to Lockheed Martin about underground windmills.......Mmmmm sounds mad doesn't it. but not half as mad as over-unity devices. Lockheed Martin know a whole lot about directing wind underground. Especially underground at higher altitudes or constant windy hilltops, Windmill Field in UK ,is a popular name, though no windmills are to be seen.

P.S. William Owen III graciously gave a big bottle of Tchesert Ba Cleopatra's perfume and also the most expensive perfume ever made, to Quentin Wallop Earl of Portsmouth's sister The lovely Lucinda. of Stink Films. that is the Stink! Shhh don't let on.

Postscript:- "Interesting job in the Royal Military Police for any CR4 browsers happenstance to glance this way, Anthony Gordon Esq. has a lovely daughter up at Saint Andrews reading Theology. Military Chaplaincy is in my view something girls should give a thought to Bless.

pranabjyoti: Why put any math in here at all? You have shown clearly that you are unable to comprehend carnot diagrams and other relationships by others that show the flaws in your plans.

Here is another silly thing. It is just as silly as your energy from air mechanism

You put a biscuit in an empty box, you come back a day later and there are two biscuits, each the same as the one you put there in the first place. You take one and eat it, and do the same daily and eat free for life.

Now, there are valid ways to exploit the thermal difference between cold deep water and warm surface water. They have been mentioned here. Just search and read and stop trying to get free biscuits.

Kindly accumulate the flaws and tell me. I have yet to discover any. As far as I can remember, there are only four regular susbscribers of this thread; you, Mr. Carnegie, Sloco and Jack of all trades. I have yet to find any flaw mentioned by anybody, SPECIALLY YOU. You so far have made just remarks, nothing else. And about Carnots Diagrams, I have repeatedly asked for the diagram for multiple sinks, but yet so far, it has to be produced by somebody.

You Wrote:- "I have repeatedly asked for the diagram for multiple sinks, but yet so far, it has to be produced by somebody

Are you trying to tell us you have not even bothered to do this yourself? possibly in the hope that a 'pester-pester-pester' approach is less energy consumptive of your superlative logical capabilities. It's an old ploy Pranab, little school children do it. Let someone else do the work.(considerable in this case)

I am trying to remember the name of the scientist who declared that if you could not explain something in terms that the average man in the street would understand, then in all likelihood, you do not understand it yourself.

I have to thank you Pranab, for one of your excellent inspirations. A HOLLOW GAS BALLOON.....For instance a pressurised FOOTBALL

Yesterday thanks to you and with help from Professor Ron Hutton (History Dept. Bristol University) I was able to give a tutorial to some non-scientists on the subject of 'Brownian Motion' and also calculate in our heads...no pocket calculators allowed!..how many molecules of air would be contained in a standard regulation football. On the learned Professor Ron Hutton's advice we started out with a Whisky blending experiment. A fine bottle of 18 year old Highland Park form the most northerly distillery on the Isle of Orkney (Stillman Mr. David Muir and assistant Jimmy Shearer) then a standard 12 year old Special Reserve Glenfiddich and to compare Celtic Golden Nectars a bottle of regular triple distilled Jameson Irish Whisky. The Girls liked the Highland Park best, and the Lads liked the Jameson. So we all agreed after much consultation and 'blind tasting, that a Girl/Boy 50/50 Marriage of the two favourites was best. So as officiating chaplain.... I joined the bride and groom in the Groom's bottle, ready to meld and marry hopefully for next Christmas.

Rest assured Pranab, in your absence, as inspiration for this joyful get together, your 'health was toasted' ..."our absent friend Pranab Jyoti Ghosh..Slanch Eva..& Chin Chin" ....Time will tell if 'Humanities Students grasp a little of Science'

(We need to establish what happens with a sudden release of pressurised air..at the molecular level this is what you claim establishes your temperature difference, the heat sink proposals in my view need further clarification)

Postscript:-

Your 'Place in History' awaits you Pranab,

Check out:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_perpetual_motion_machines

In my opinion, it is the temp. diff. of the last sink and the source, that will make the c.o.p of the heat pump in that case. I haven't told that to anybody just to know what is their idea about that. Till this day, it is unbelieveable for me that this simple thing is too much tough to understand to others.

I have been off for a few days for my illness (fever) and my PC problem. After coming back, what I have observed that Alstair Carnegie and aurizon has made this discussion section a nonsense club. At this stage, probably the webmaster and only the webmaster can only help.

Yes, we have pretty much beaten your nonsense flat

Your sense about "nonsense" is unquestionable, but you always choose the wrong person. Perhaps you can find him in your own house, most probably in the washroom.

Does this look familiar Mr Pranab Jyoti Ghosh?

By 1895 gases had been liquefied by the so-called
regenerative method with less difficulty and expense than had
before been possible; Mr. Charles E. Tripler of New York had
devised apparatus for the liquefaction of air in large quantity,
and a popular article concerning Mr. Tripler's laboratory and his
remarkable work was published in McClure's Magazine for March
1899. This article, written by Mr. Ray Stannard Baker, then of
the editoral staff of the magazine, contained some startling
statements and one especially which meant the refutation of the




second law of thermodynamics and the achievement of the perpetual
motion.


Mr. Tripler said :

" I have actually made about ten gallons of liquid air in my
liquifier by the use of about three gallons in my engine.
There is, therefore, a surplusage of seven gallons that has
cost me nothing, and which I can use elsewhere as power."

The very cold liquid air in the boiler of an engine would be
vaporized and have high pressure under the heating effect of the
atmosphere, without any other fuel, and the air thus under
pressure would drive the engine which, in turn, would compress
more air to be liquefied and employed for power purposes. The use
of air for driving the engine constituted no difficulty either in
theory or practice, but according to accepted ideas of science, as
much work would be required in compressing the air and depriving
it of heat as the air could possibly restore in again reaching its
normal pressure and temperature. Still, there was Mr. Tripler's
statement which he offered to verify in his laboratory.

At the invitation of McClure's Magazine, through Mr. Baker,
two professors, heads of the departments of Physics and Chemistry
in a prominent university, visited Mr. Tripler's laboratory to
witness such a demonstration. The visit, though made by
appointment, proved to be not conveniently timed for Mr. Tripler,
and nothing came of it except a brief comment from each of them
criticizing Mr. Tripler's claims. This the magazine did not
publish, and the exploitation of liquid air and its wonders
continued. Those who had declared war to the death on the second
law of thermodynamics were elated and exultant.

Mr. Tripler resented calling his invention a scheme for
perpetual motion - always insisting that the heat of the
atmosphere was a furnace for his liquid air, and consistently
refusing to admit that he lost any power in getting the air to a
temperature below that of the surrounding bodies, i.e., denying
the validity of the second law of thermodynamics. The promises of
the liquid air scheme were alluring -bewilderingly so - and its
friends were loath to give up the hopes based upon them. Posing as
an exemption from a painful but inexorable law, this fallacy
lingered for several years and died hard.

You have again marked this kind of technology a perpetual motion machine. But, as far as I know, perpetual motion machines are those only which claims to create energy out of nothing. Instead, you again marked the technology of Mr. Tripler a perpetual motion machine. Your knowledge of thermodynamics is very distinct in this case.

In your submission, you have presented a very partial picture of Tripler technology, no details were given. Kindly in future, if you submit any kind of 'story' like this Tripler technology, kindly try to give more details and try to point the flaws. About my place in history, will you be my historian please, that will be great help for me. Because that will arouse debate among the viewers and I know very well that I will get some impartial viewers.

I think if you contact Professor Ron Hutton of Bristol University History Dept. He would be a much better choice than me. Ron is also involved in this project that may give you a salary he has been helping to choose Fine Whiskies for exotic perfume extraction purposes Project ...."KALIEDOSCOPE" ( named after Dr. Bullet Wheels Gas Chromatography Expert and recent head of New Scotland Yard Forensics Dept.)....I have sent an outline of part of the project by private email to your partner. His Grandson now is in poor health, so let's all say a prayer for his speedy recovery. I myself would love to know how the Tipler machine worked, but sadly Mr Tipler kept evading scientists very much interested in his project. He wrote to newspapers and magazines appealing to patriotic fervour, and reminded Germany how she lost the race to powered manned flight, because Germany's scientists had ruled powered flight an impossibility. They had lost vital years and endangered the nation Mr. Tipler claimed. "What?" he said, "would Germany do if other nations like Great Britain and America steamed their ships into Hamburg Port, employing this over-unity device?" ......His words were not lost, Germany saw a huge Naval Ship Building Project Underway. Their Intelligence agents reported that all these New Naval Vessels were being powered by Charlie Parsons new Steam Turbine Engine. The hull of the Warship itself was the heat sink. The book "The Thirty nine Steps" was a Blarney Stone allusion to this 'dreadful dark secret' Immortalised in Film..... (The Lovely Lucinda take note.).....Germany thought they had better keep up with Great Britain, they could always make a retrofit boiler, .....but only after Mr.Tipler was so kind and accommodating as to Allow German Naval Engineers to examine his marvellous machine.

Mr. Tipler was ecstatic, and knew how to keep them all guessing. As the Late Buckminster Fuller who copied "The Wonder of Jena" strut for strut, dimension for dimension exact duplicate of the Carl Zeiss Optical Works Geodesic Dome in Jena East Germany, (Dr. Walter Bauersfeld's 1922 Planetarium Project) ...said:- "A Problem, Properly stated, is a problem on it's way to being solved."

My sincere advise Pranab, is to work hard at that good maxim, which doubtless was coined by the Late Buckminster Fuller, despite every engineers scepticism that the exact duplicate of Dr. Walter Bauersfeld's Geodesic 1922 Dome, was just a mere coincidence......'Walter' or 'WallyBalls' would be a better name for Carbon Nano-Spheres. A 'Wally' is a name now used for a sucker. who must never be given an even break. The Wally Revenge is to Plunge the Entire World into a Century of Global Conflict....He who has the last laugh, as they say. That will teach you to behave like Gentlemen..... we will give them all Service Revolvers and tell them to "Go over the top" or else have pretty girls tickle their faces with fluffy white ostrich feathers....Buy me some more champaign lover boy......"I want to introduce you to this Steel Importer, we are having a party tonight, do you want to come along?"

Professor Ron Hutton can be contacted by e-mail, details on Wikipedia. Tell him I recommended you to him, and that you may become involved in extracting perfumes using 23 old whisky at cask strength from the Isle of Skye, where legend has it Pontious Pilot may have been born. His dad was in the Whisky Export Trade. Professor Ron has his doubts, until more substantial evidence is provided. Clever Prime Minister Tony Blair sent his son to read History at the University of Bristol. Ron is no sucker for a tale from the Blarney Stone, and knows how to detect one as well.

You have seen practically every link here on this 'Thread' and if you recall, when you have put your proposal into shape, I would be happy to review it for Submission to Hugh Wright of Brooks Bachelor (another amusing tale their, but not for poor Hugh, 4Later, I still owe Brooks and Martin about £2500 + interest because Hugh proceeded to examine a Goodlock Ltd. Patent proposal, without instruction from the Board of Directors, so it had to come from my pocket...tut tut) I have not paid it yet and hope the occasional plug is interest enough? Now Brooks Bachelor. P.S. It was Mr. Martin who patented 'Viagra' not Brooks. I was told? A sad parting of the ways.

I hope you make full recovery Pranab. Good Luck & @Shape up your proposal into a well stated case.

Hi everybody, It's me again after a long time. A very big european organisation has shown interest in my technology after thorough verification by experts. Now they will sponsor the prototyping and testing of that technology. If possible, kindly tell me names of persons and organisations whom I can hire to do so. You people better refine your skeptic skills.

No need, we are still skeptical, in far these skills are even sharper now.

Well,

Then I will contact you with experimental results and and I am very much sanguine that the results will go beyond my expectations.