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Associate

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 25

Sudden Drop of Feedwater Pressure

10/22/2008 6:29 AM

Hi,I am in the dark when referring to the above title.The incident happens when the Paper Machine complex is taking steam up to 20kg/s during re start from our boiler.all of the sudden,the feedwater pump lost its pressure from 125 barg to around 40 barg.The feedwater pump is of variable speed turbo coupling type.previous incident caused our boiler to trip on low water level due to no feedwater supply to steam drum.can anybody help me.

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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Newburgh, IN
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#1

Re: Sudden drop of Feedwater pressure

10/22/2008 12:29 PM

When the Pressure drops it is caused by a REDUCED FLOW or REDUCED FLOW RESISTANCE.

This could be from another flow path opening and using more flow than the pump is capable of.

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Bud Trinkel
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Anonymous Poster
#2

Re: Sudden Drop of Feedwater Pressure

10/22/2008 8:28 PM

Is the coupling scoop tube controlled manually or automatically? If automatically, how? What condition are the controls in?

Is this a new installation? Or a new problem with an old installation?

What is the condition of the turbo coupling? Condition of the oil?

Was the coupling recently overhauled / worked on?

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Associate

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 32
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#3

Re: Sudden Drop of Feedwater Pressure

10/23/2008 12:28 AM

I can't see the pump directly at this point, there are just too many things in the way.

There are several reasons you might be getting this:

1. Your control system is tuned improperly. Check to see that the pump is not being commanded to drop the pressure.

2. Check the feed lines and tanks. You may have an NPSH (net postive suction head) issue. If your feed tank levels are dropping, you may not have enough suction head to prevent cavitation. Cavitation tends to do bad things, including making a pump ineffective. If they are dropping too much, you could be sucking air in the line. Water pumps tend not to be great air pumps.

3. Check the pump vibration. Do you notice an increase in vibration when this happens?

4. Check the pump speed and amperage, does it go up or down in this adventure. I'll bet that it doesn't stay the same.

5. Check the feed system to make sure that the temperature of the incoming water is not rising. Why might it rise? Perhaps you are dumping hot water into the boiler feed water, or perhaps the pipe temperature is going up due to friction.

6. For that matter, check the pump temperature. If it is rising, you may have increased clearances, which decrease pressure.

7. Check where the water is going. It would be interesting to discover that just about the time you need water from that pump, some other valve is opening to relieve the pressure or use water for another process.

8. Check the pump seal under pressure. You might be dropping all your water out the wrong end of the pump.

9. if it is really a problem, send someone (several someones) to watch each step of the process from beginning to end and report what they see, hear, and feel. Observations such as a vortex in the tank (not good), overheating pump, vibration, broken pump seal, banging pipes, leaks, odd noises, the smell of ozone or burining, etc.

Good luck,

Michael

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Guru

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#4

Re: Sudden Drop of Feedwater Pressure

10/23/2008 1:00 AM

What is your feed water temperature? What is the height of your feed water tank?

What is your boiler operating pressure? What is your boiler capacity?

For temperature 90C & + the height must be minimum 4.5 metre to safeguard against pump cavitation. The failure may have been due to this that your pump has cavitated due flash steam formation above 90C resulting in imploding upon the impeller blades and damaging them for the pump to lose pressure.

For future safety :

1 . Install a Flow Switch (ITT FS4-3) on the pump outlet to warn you.

2 . Install a temperature sensing at the exhaust & Controller to cut iff your burner in event this pump failure occurs and even the lo-lo water cut off fails.This will safeguard you & your boiler.

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Sudden Drop of Feedwater Pressure

10/23/2008 10:10 AM

Thank a lot for your reply.I do appreciate it.Now I can breath as usual.But I will have to compile all the comments to compare with the incident report I had to pinpoint the root cause of the problem.Again thank you very much

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Sudden Drop of Feedwater Pressure

10/23/2008 12:03 PM

Don't forget to investigate your coupling!!!!

They are able to react fast. If you loose speed - you will lose pressure.

(I am a little disappointed that everyone, except me, neglected to talk about the coupling)

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Guru

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Sudden Drop of Feedwater Pressure

10/24/2008 10:00 AM

My recent experience 2 weeks back.

I was called in at a Textile Plant by the owner because the fuel bill gradually went up in one year by over 25%. It took me an hour to trace out. Check Youtube " Condensate Wasted". (During the visit I also noticed that they were draining the feed water via the overflow valve on the feed water tank).

Then after one week of my visit I was told that there was a Feed Pump pressure drop and due to water shortage their 10 Tph Packaged fire-tube Boiler was damaged. I revisited again and found the back tube plate buckled and they flue may have developed a crack. That is the job of the Boiler inspector so I cannot meddle in this.

Upon questioning and detailed investigation these were the reasons:

1 . The Pump could not handle hot water above 65C because of age and non replacement of parts.

2 . They had taken off the feed tank insulation (to reduce temperature by radiation)and draining hot return to supplement with cold water to reduce feed temperature for the already cavitated pump to handle.

3 . The pump dropped flow & pressure to due cavitation and there was no flow switch to give alarm on no flow.

4 . The lo-lo level probe was not working or disconnected because of point # 3 which they lied to me that the lo lo level alarm & cutoff of the burners did not take place. I believe they were encountering this problem again & again and had taken off the lo-lo level alarm to overcome continuous boiler shutdowns.

5. The Temperature sensing on the chimney exhaust was connected to the indicating cum controller but just for indication only and the controlling- off signal was not connected to the panel programmer to shut of the boiler on lo-lo water level & ring alarm.

6 . Infact there was no alarm and JUST BY CHANCE they noticed the Indicator showing 400C so they shot off the boiler but by that time it had done the damage.

What do you mean by Cavitation in Pump?


A pump is designed to handle liquid, not vapour. Vapour forms if the pressure in the pump falls below the liquid's vapour pressure . The vapour pressure occurs right at the impeller inlet where a sharp pressure drop occurs. The impeller rapidly builds up the pressure which collapses vapour bubbles causing cavitation and damage . This is avoided by maintaining sufficient NPSH.
(Cavitation implies cavities or holes in the fluid we are pumping. These holes can also be described as bubbles, so cavitation is really about the formation of bubbles and their collapse. Bubbles form when ever liquid boils. It can be avoided by providing sufficient NPSH.)

What do you mean by NPSH? How do you calculate it?


NPSH: Net Positive Suction Head. NPSH is the pressure available at the pump suction after vapour pressure is substarcted. It is calculated as :

Static head + surface pressure head - the vapor pressure of your product - the friction losses in the piping, valves and fittings.
It thus reflects the amount of head loss that the pump can sustain internally before vapour pressure is reached

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#5

Re: Sudden Drop of Feedwater Pressure

10/23/2008 8:29 AM

It sounds like your instantaneous demand is sucking the water and pressure from the boiler and causing it to trip on low water. If the boiler pressure drops low enough it may appear that your feed pump is dropping pressure when in reality it is pumping into a depleted system. Further, if the feedwater valve is of the motorized actuator style, it may be too slow to react and by the time it opens fully it is too late.

There are 2 potential remedies in addition to the previous postings. First would be to provide a wet steam accumulator (AKA, surge tank) between the load and the supply. These are designed specifically for instant demands which can overwhelm a boiler in a moment, but can easily allow a small boiler to supply steam on an average basis. Second, you may need to install a back pressure valve between the boilers and the load which will sense the lowering system pressure and close on drop to protect the boilers from overload. The following link has lots of good information on steam surge tanks.

http://www.spiraxsarco.com/

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#9
In reply to #5

Re: Sudden Drop of Feedwater Pressure

10/24/2008 10:08 AM

A very good answer. This is normally encountered mostly in a new system setup and wrong engineering. These will also be common on boiler priming particularly on high loads with an on/off level controller. Ideal solution :

1 . If old system and in past this problem did not occur check pump for cavitation.

2 . Install modulating level controlling system.

3 . undertake your 2 potential remedies as additional safety.

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Associate

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#10

Re: Sudden Drop of Feedwater Pressure

10/24/2008 12:21 PM

Gentlemen,

From the real time trending:

1.Pump amperage has gone up from normally around 58 amp to about 68 amp.

2.RPM of the turbocoupling/pump/motor remained the same about 2900.

3.Scoope tube position remained at 100% as we select it to manual mode.

FYI,on the discharge side there is a SCHROEDER valve(3 way N/R valve)which we renewed recently and the centrifugal Feedwater pump has been serviced few months ago.

We haven't checked the feedwater tank/feedwater temperature yet but I bet it remianed the same.Anyway I will check the trending again.

Until now the problem not yet solved.

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Anonymous Poster
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Sudden Drop of Feedwater Pressure

10/27/2008 7:20 AM

additional Q for cosli: 1-how can you be sure that your 3-way valve are working properly? what is the control system of 3-way valve? You should have a back-up pump as standby for the boiler feed pump.

please answer the questions of the contributor so that they will keep you guided whatever doubtful in your position.

regards

jojie_oak

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