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Vacuum Pressure

12/11/2008 4:19 AM

I am not good at mechanical stuff. Would appreciate if someone could render me some idea about vacuum pump.

Ok, the situation is like this, let say i already have one vacuum pump and plan to add another one with same capacity. How should i connect the pump to the existing line? Is it right to say that the resultant vacuum pressure would be double?

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#1

Re: Vacuum Pressure

12/11/2008 5:20 AM

You can't double the vacuum pressure.

The 'pressure' exerted on a vacuum is atmospheric pressure (assuming we aren't under the sea) Once you have a reasonable vacuum, further pumping will acheive nothing.
E.G If you suck all the air molecules out of a jar, then you can't suck out any more!

If you have a leaky system then stop up the leaks, or if you are actually pumping something then improved/additional pumps may help, but it is better to blow than to suck...
You can pump a positive pressure of several bar quite easilly, but you can only ever suck to 1 bar.

Del

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#2

Re: Vacuum Pressure

12/11/2008 4:54 PM

The resultant vacuum pressure would likely be the same if you connected these in parallel. The draw-down time of the system might be cut in half, but the ending pressure would be the same. (Assuming the pumps are in fact the same.) If you are trying to improve on how quickly the system gets to a certain pressure, then a parallel installation would be preferred.

If you connected these in series, then you might reach a lower pressure, but probably not much better than you have already. Vacuum pumps tend to have some slip and get to a certain differential pressure before they cannot pump any more. Most can attain 28" Hg. 32" is vull vacuum, so you might get to 29" or 30", not that much of an improvement.

The third thing to consider is how much air leakage you have in the system. This may be the biggest driving force in what kind of pressures you can achieve. Air leaks into piping systems typically through flanges. If everything is tight, then little air leaks in, but if its an old piping system, then the vacuum leaks can be significant. Your pump can only move so much air, so it will draw down to a point where the air leaking in equals the capacity of the pump. Again, a parallel installation of the two pumps would be recommended here and you might in fact see a doubling of system performance. It all depends on how tight the system is.

I would check all the flanges in the system to make sure the bolts are tight and the gaskets are intact before going through the trouble of installing the pump. See what that gets you, then install the pump if you are still unhappy.

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#3

Re: Vacuum Pressure

12/12/2008 3:11 AM

One thing to consider is: the Purpose of the lower vacuum level. If it is to achieve a higher FORCE on a surface, then sometimes it does hardly make a difference if your vacuum is eg 10^-4mbar or 10^-10mbar, beacuase it is the (force) difference between very little and very very little.

Rik.

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#4

Re: Vacuum Pressure

12/12/2008 7:30 AM

If you are located at a high altitude the vacuum will be lower by a factor of the height. The answers given that there is a limit to vacuum are correct.

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#5

Re: Vacuum Pressure

12/12/2008 7:43 AM

You can't really put them in series. The only time you will see two pumps in series is in a pump package where a roots blower is mounted on top of the mechanical pump. They are designed from the factory to work together...hence, the term "package". The blower increases pumping volume and therefore decreases pump down time, but the ultimate base pressure is determined by the mechanical pump. Generally, around 10 millitorr or so. Putting the pumps in parallel will only decrease your pump down time, but will not affect your ultimate base pressure. Unless you are evacuating a large vessel or chamber, you are wasting your time and money.

If you want to pump into the 10 X -4 Torr range or lower, you will have to add a high vacuum pump such as a cryo pump, turbo, or diffusion pump. Based on your question I kinda doubt you have the skill to do that so I would turn that over to a vacuum expert.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but once you you reach the base pressure of a good mechanical pump, you are no longer sucking anything. In fact, some would argue that you are never sucking anything. The pump is actually creating a pressure differential and the "sucking" is really the pressure attempting to equalize itself. Once you reach that crossover point in pressure, you are depending upon the random movement of gas molecules in the chamber to just "stumble" into the conduction path to the high vacuum pump.

'Nuff said.

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#6

Re: Vacuum Pressure

12/12/2008 7:50 AM

And no offense to Del, but you will never remove all of the gas molecules from that jar unless you happen to be in outer space. Even then, its subject to debate. Space ain't empty.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Vacuum Pressure

12/12/2008 8:41 AM

i think you can introduce vacuum booster the way soap driers has to improve vacuum.

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Vacuum Pressure

12/12/2008 8:53 AM

None taken...I was just trying to illustrate the point.
In fact KrisDelTM have a fine selections of molecules you can buy at very reasonable prices.
We even have some 'no molecules' but these are very expensive and they usually get lost when you open the package.

Del

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Vacuum Pressure

12/12/2008 9:19 AM

I've been looking for some dark matter. Think you can help me?

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Vacuum Pressure

12/12/2008 11:20 AM

Er...no, but I have this pimple behind my ear with some nice yellow matter .

Del

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Vacuum Pressure

12/12/2008 12:57 PM

Yea, I got one of those on my...err (clears throat)...never mind.

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: Vacuum Pressure

12/12/2008 9:36 AM

sTILL WAITING FOR THAT NEW CATalogue.....

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#12
In reply to #6

Re: Vacuum Pressure

12/12/2008 12:32 PM

Please do not open that jar in outer space.

If you do, outer space will become partially filled. Before you know it, outer space will be filled up. That will affect the fuel needed to travel out there. And that will drive the cost of the fuel that I need to buy even higher than it was this year.

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#14

Re: Vacuum Pressure

12/12/2008 1:33 PM

Depending on the purpose of the vacuum pumps in the system, you might be better looking at flow rates differential pressures, and system pressure losses.

The vacuum pump is a volume device trying to move X number of volume per minute across the pump. The flow rate is affeected by the differental pressure across the pump. The system pressure is affected by friction within the hoses and piping between the pump and the point of vacuum use. Leaks affect whether the volume is pulled at the point of use or from the interconnecting piping.

If two identical pumps are in parallel, the flow is increased, but the pressure differential across the pumps stays the same. Due to system effects, flow will not be doubled.

If two identical pumps are in series, the flow stays the same, but the presure differential is increased. Again due to system effects, tthe presssue will not be doubled (or in this case the vacuum)

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Vacuum Pressure

12/13/2008 3:43 AM

can you please show the diagram of series connection and parellal connection of pump

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Vacuum Pressure

12/15/2008 8:21 AM

I can't, I am not skilled at placing diagrams on this forum .

It would be similar to parallel and series resistors though.

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#17

Re: Vacuum Pressure

01/25/2013 4:08 AM

Dear Mr.zmun,

Your expression should be clear to convey, WHETHER YOU NEED MORE VACCUUM (equivalent to Voltage in Electrical Circuit) with same Capacity (Or) YOU NEED MORE CAPACITY with SAME LEVEL of VACCUUM.

It is like 2 batteries, which are identical, being connected in Series for higher Voltage with same Current (Or) connected in Parallel for more Current with same Voltage.

The resultant will be either SAME VACCUUM with MORE CAPACITY (Or) SAME CAPACITY WITH MORE VACCUUM - but puttting in series will pose a problem for Vaccuum and putting in series for Positive Pressure will work.

Thanks,

DHAYANANDHAN.S

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