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Anonymous Poster

Hydrogen Fuel Cell from Dutchman is a scam

12/14/2008 4:33 PM

hydrogen fuel cell from Dutchman SCAM they dont work. I have one installed on my 2006 Toyota corolla. My car was great it was geting 34 to 38 mpg, but i had some friends who were useing the Fuel cell on there 84 suburban and 95 caravan, They swore it worked and they were both sales reps for Dutchman and a company called Team Everest. I purchased one for my car with claims that it would give me 60 mpg and that not to worry its a money back guarantee. It took 4 months to recieve my fuel cell and i was to take it to a certified Dutchman tech to installation to have it installed properly or it would not be warranteed. After intallation it was producing hydrogen, you get to see the bubbles in the hose as there pumping it into the engine, looks great and give you a feel good but when we took it out for a test the mpg came back at 27 mpg and the engine was knocking and loss in horse power and idle was hard. They said these things will take time and take a bit for the computer to accept the new programing that it was being given and to drive it for a few days and bring it back they can tune it again for free. The engine warning lites came on as i was driving home they said bring it back tomarrow and they would reset it for me and that its just part of the tuneing process. Now to make a long story shorter i have been taking the car in every week for months and it still is not working they say that the computer in my toyota is to smart and that the dutman optimizer cant fuel the car to burn the hydrogen in place of the gas. they have soldered in resisters and they had to replace the throttlebody after the Dutchman installation video and techs told them to drill a hole in my throttlebody, and again a long story short there i am now out 900 for the kit and 850 for the installation and 897 for a new throttlebody and 307 for labor on the part, and they tell me they cant make it work so they said i can get a refund on the kit....900 but i am still out all the time and days off and loss of work time and the damages to the car etc and i get 900 back plus i have to pay to ship the kit back. So if you want to try to see if it works on your car go for it, i say dont do it, and the friends that had there kits and selling them they dont come around anymore and one of there kits stoped working as well. thank you for your time Kip... nofaith@charter.net

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#1

Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell from Dutchman is a scam

12/15/2008 1:02 AM

Dear Guest,

I think you may have a few options here.

If you charged any of the items or services on a credit card contact your card provider. You may be able to introduce these scammers to a wonderful thing called a "credit card charge back".

File a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.

My state (NJ) requires licenses and continuing education for any business or technician who does any work that can effect auto emissions. Find out if your jurisdiction does and report the miscreants.

You could see a lawyer. The last resort in my opinion.

I hope that these scammers didn't damage your engine or void any remaining warranty you may have had.

Ed

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#2

Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell from Dutchman is a scam

12/15/2008 8:57 AM

I have dealt with the Better Business Bureau and they are a waist of time. They do nothing and have absolutely no power to get anything done. They don't even report problems correctly if you go to there web site and look up a business. All they do is forward letters back and forth between you and the company that you are complaining about.

As for the hydrogen affecting your car and the gas mileage going down its probably because when you introduce hydrogen into the intake it makes your o2 sensor think that the engine is running lean and it tries to compensate for it by richening the air fuel mixture. You would have to have the computer remapped to get it to run right and even at that you probably wouldn't get the claimed miles per gallon that they advertise.

Most states do have a fine for tampering with emissions systems on cars though so that may be something worth looking into.

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#8
In reply to #2

Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell from Dutchman is a scam

12/17/2008 9:12 AM

Always remember that the BBB is funded by and represents the member businesses, not the consumer. They also seem to love it when a consumer goes after a non-member business as it gives them an opportunity to push the advantages of membership (ie: representation and a layer or protection) in the owner's face.

That said, don't waste your time. Contact your state's Attorney Generals office of consumer protection. In the case of emissions systems tampering, your state police are probably also a good line of attack, since that's also most likely breaking state laws, not to mention the Feds.

FWIW

Hooker

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#3

Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell from Dutchman is a scam

12/15/2008 9:52 AM

Caveat emptor. If it seems too good to be true . . . .

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#4

Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell from Dutchman is a scam

12/15/2008 11:54 AM

I'd advise going to a Toyota dealer or a Toyota mechanic with a good reputation and have them remove the device and evaluate any damage to your car resulting from the device's installation.

It is against federal law to tamper with the emissions system, which installers of HHO devices routinely do, as they pretend to get these devices to work. Some installers know full well that the devices do not work; others appear to believe that the devices work as advertised -- but in either case, the devices do not work, never have, and never will. In any case, be sure to report your installer to the EPA -- tampering is a federal crime.

Dutchman is run by Dennis Lee, a convicted fraud, who keeps coming up with new schemes to swindle people. One would hope that he is sued out of existence or put back in jail for a much longer time, but I do not have a lot of hope. These HHO scams are very popular, and recently even an MIT PhD (working a university in Florida) was fooled into believing (or at least the involved TV station made is seem as if he believed) that one such device improved fuel efficiency by 10%. (See: this and this .) Of course, these devices do no such thing, and CANNOT do such a thing. The incontrovertible fact is: these units consume more energy than the energy value of the H2/O2 mix created. This is a very basic chemistry and physics fact, that no such unit can "get around". I am barely exaggerating when I say that the likelihood of one of these devices working is about the same as the likelihood of the sun rising in the west.

The "saving grace" for these devices, from the scammer's perspective, is that they do nothing: The power used by the device (typically 100 watts) is such a tiny fraction of the engine's output (typically 100,000 watts max, 15,000 watts at cruise) that the reduction in fuel efficiency is virtually impossible to measure, even with a chassis dynamometer. The reason honest people report efficiency improvements is that they expect to see an improvement, drive differently, etc... placebo effect. There are people who provide testimonials for fuel line magnets too, which have no effect at all, and could not be expected to have any effect, because magnetic fields do absolutely nothing to fuel. (The EPA has tested many such devices, has not found one that works at all.)

If you poke around on this site, you will find many threads and hundreds of posts on HHO, "Browns Gas", electrolysers, etc. (There are legitimate uses for electrolysers, but most of those are well known so do not show up here: in general, if you search for electrolyser here you will find discussions of scams. Some members here are involved in such scams, and I have no way of knowing which ones are simply ill-informed, and which ones are Dennis Lee replicas -- active, knowing, fraudsters.)

I appreciate your taking the time to post. Hopefully, your experience will steer others away from such buying such devices.

I have personal experience with putting a fraudulent invention marketing company out of business, so I know it is possible to stop fraud, and know that the FTC will try to stop the worst frauds. I hope you will write to the FTC. Unfortunately, they seem to have little time for prosecuting these HHO frauds.

You mention that one of your friend's kits stopped working. If (this is a big if) your friend really believed it ever worked, he is not alone. However, these devices do not work, ever, in any way shape or form. Popular mechanics did a test of a very carefully built unit which demonstrated that it had no effect at all, exactly as the science would predict. The fact that your unit reduced performance has more to do with damage and maladjustment of the emission control system caused upon installation, than with the HHO device itself, which should have no measurable effect at all, if it is installed without creating a vacuum leak. The Dutchman kit comes with a device that "fools" (they say) the ECU into thinking the engine is running a little rich (and the ECU then leans out the mixture). All that is required for such "fooling" is a simple resistor bridge (50 cents worth of resistors) to change the output of the O2 sensor. This modification is illegal because (although is can make a tiny improvement to fuel efficiency under certain conditions -- e.g., 1 mpg) it increases NOx emissions. (It also reduces driveability.)

Dennis Lee has made so much money selling dealer rights to a perpetual motion machine (which has never been demonstrated to work, of course) that he could afford ads (for his PICC and HAFC) on magazines like Newsweek (a hundreds of thousands of dollars per ad). The PICC, incidentally, is complete gibberish, and is only a come-on for the HAFC, which itself does not work. The HAFC might seem to have the possibility of working, to someone who is not schooled in chemistry or physics -- let's say a car mechanic who is not too engaged in really thinking about how cars work. But the PICC is just idiotic, with nothing in the promo video making any sense at all.

Dr Abtahi was fooled, and designed a test that was so obviously flawed that my eighth grade daughter was able to point our many sources for errors greater than his 10% claim of possible improvement. (In an email to me he said: "Please refer to the full interview on WPTV, I made it quite clear that our tests were not scientific and that no solid conclusions could be drawn from these tests. We will be happy to design a full scientific experiment if funding is provided.") (In fact, he did not make that point clear, at least as the retest was broadcast... and he was billed as an expert, representing the university -- in which case, the test should have been designed to have some scientific validity.) So at least you are not alone in being fooled by Dennis Lee and others like him. I am sorry to hear about your experience and hope that you can sue to get your money back, including punitive damages, lost time, etc.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell from Dutchman is a scam

12/15/2008 12:24 PM

GA Ken !!

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#6

Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell from Dutchman is a scam

12/16/2008 12:52 PM

You should contact the Attorney General's office in your state and learn how to file a formal complaint. It could well be that others have done the same thing and there may be some action underway to recover losses incurred. In any event, you will not lose anything by taking this step, other than the time that it takes to file the complaint. My experience with such issues has been very favorable, but it has not involved an entity that has such an apparnetly fraudulent history.

As a case in point, in Ohio, there is a long-time swindler by the name of Ben Suarez, located in Canton, Ohio, who has promoted all sorts of gimcracks, starting with the Abdominizer many years ago and advancing to the Amish Mantle and some 'miracle quartz heater'. The Ohio Attorney General's office has made repeated attempts to cease this man's perverse preying upon ignorant folks who fall for his junk, but have not had much success as I recall.

Good luck and stay away from anything 'miracle'!

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell from Dutchman is a scam

12/16/2008 1:05 PM

Very good point. In fact, Dennis Lee is barred from operating in several states, by virtue of action from attorneys general in those states.

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