selling excess electricity

checkout www.greenenergyohio.org

May I draw your attention to the fact that electricity kills many people every day because they did not understand it and had never studied it in a proper and safe manner.....

It would appear that you will also die soon for the self same reasons!!! Go and get educated in a proper manner, you are living in a country with some fantastic universities and schools, either make use of them or leave well alone.....

Having BeriBeri is only part of your problem I feel.....

Mr. Andy Germany

From the tone of your reply I deduce that you live alone and your children won't come see you. I didn't ask for your condemnation and it is obvoius that you didn't read my post unless you didn't have any flies to pull the wings from and decided to get your sport some other way.

Since when cannot a person ask a question out of curiousity? If all respondents were of your mentality the world would still be living in the dark ages.

To BWire and CJ - Thanks for your direction and attitude. It is a pleasure to get response that is helpful to a curious mind. I hope I can return the favor someday.

If you manage to get a good education in electricity without removing yourself from this planet, you will then (hopefully!) understand my point of view is ALWAYS with safety.

What you don't know or understand can kill you....

Its a well known fact that I do not suffer fools gladly!

May I suggest that you visit this web site from time to time, as you may become its new "Star" before long!! But will be unable to read about it!!

Stardom for the uneducated

Good point, Andy, and I, too, like the Darwin Awards. But lighten up. He's only asking, so far, and we can always tell him to be more careful, don't run with scissors, etc., if we see him headed in dangerous directions. Besides, he's a big boy. If he does run with scissors, his Mama will no doubt be quicker than we ever could to scold him for it. AFTER she patches him up, obviously, since she loves him more than we ever could (at least, I hope she does. Otherwise it will indeed be a cold, cruel world.)

Micah

You said "It seems unreasonable to make utilities in some areas pay a premium for my unreliable power. They still need to invest in all of their generation and distribution whether or not the wind blows or the sun shines."

This statement alone makes it obviousl you are not merely hoping to cash in on someone else's endevour, as many might say that it indeed is fair if I can "make hay" on their work.

But Andy seems to have a quick temper these days, and doesn't "suffer" anyone gladly, assuming many are fools. My relatives, also German, did much the same, so perhaps it is cultural. I can only sympathize, and agree with your polite answer.

Please, ask, and when I have advice to give, I'll count it a privilege. Just as I, as you, have been privileged to receive well thought out answers.

Micah

Run the utility meter backwards. Meter reader reports net negative use of utility power. Utility pays (or credits the account holder's bill) for the utility power not used (the previously paid-for power returned). Simple.

guest; the new meters count revolutions of the rotor, counter does care which way it turns, cause it counts up.

I should point out that there is a difference between "net metering" and "parallel generation".

Your "net metering" explanation in great detail is spot on. Some utilities willingly accept the excess generation (free of course) beyond what you can use. This varies by Locality. This also usually involves homes or small businesses.

As for "parallel generation", generating primarily for the purpose of selling the excess into the utility grid, the situation has radically changed in some regions of the planet.

Utility suppliers are becoming increasingly challenged to provide power in the places required due to a greater demand, and a matching problem of powerline availability. Thank you environmentalist action, governmental undersight etc. (Don't take this as a pro or a con, just an explanation all can readily understand.) With that reality has come adjustments in the industry that lessen the requirement for massive amounts of kW production you referred to, before a utility will contract to purchase your power. The tax benefits are also greatly modified in recent years due to government coffers being low. (A whole other discussion, let's not digress here.)

So what are the sources that have arisen to this need?

Industries that have traditionally wasted large quantities of heat or mechanical energy, that are now finding it practical to "co-generate" power in parallel with the utility.

Large areas of commercial roof-top are increasingly being covered with acres of solar generation, not rising to the 20 -23 acre level, but all specifically designed as input to the grid.

Even very small generation sources (wind, solar, DG, micro hydro etc) are in the "parallel generation" market now in many places due to the changing need.

What must be pointed out about the difference from 'net metering' is that these are not simply a reduction of usage at the going rate, but are under contract with the utility, usually for a much lesser amount. The terms and requirements/benefits vary widely by locality, but the willingness of the utility to accept this source is increasing rapidly.

The forces behind this change are many; siting difficulties for transmission and generation, air quality issues, fuel availability and cost, cost of large new construction, economy fluctuations etc, etc, etc.

The point here is that 'net metering' is not the only option for the small generator any more, and one should find out the actual situation from the local government and utility entities in forming the knowlege base for any such decision.

There is not a switch for the purpose you state. The only switch is a relay to disconnect from the grid if the grid loses power.

It is a matter of forcing energy in reverse. For generation sources (things that force energy into the grid) that are grid connected to supply energy to the grid, they only need to exceed the usage on the customer side of the meter. At that point the excess generation will flow out into the grid. No switch required.

For those of you that awarded a GA to Guest's answer, be reminded that those browsing by looking only at the answers rated "good answer" will be mis-informed.

'Guest' stated "If your production rate exceeds your consumption rate, the utility's equipment will switch to allow any such excess to be fed back to the utility grid, but only for such duration until the metering of your power (feed back) matches but does not exceed previously metered infeed power from the utility."

Close, but no prize. Correctly stated, it would read this way:

"If your production rate exceeds your consumption rate, the excess will feed back into the utility grid, but credit for this excess only for such duration until the metering of your power (feed back) matches but does will not exceed previously metered in-fed power from the utility. x

There is not a switch by which this is accomplished, the meter does not stop when a net of zero is achieved, and the energy fed into the grid does not stop at that point either.

The utility gladly accepts the excess power, but will only credit the customer with enough to bring his own bill to zero, if that point is reached. That is the reason limits are in place to try to match a customers net usage to the customers net generation, with a goal of zero net usage. Otherwise one of two conditions would result.

1- Other customers would get the privilege of paying retail to this customer for his excess power generation. (That's how rate setting works.) Or,

2- This customer would put up the expense of supplying great amounts of excess energy to the grid, with no credit for it in return. Energy is not free, solar cells and wind turbines cost real money invested, maintenance, etc..

As you signed in as 'guest' you may not get this reply, however I am compelled to clarify your first sentence, since I was a 25 year power co. tech and handled this very thing.

For excellence in posts, regards, CJM

Thank you, guest, for the explanation. Too bad you choose to remain anonymous, because I rated it a GA for helping me understand the complexity of the issue, both technically and from a market perspective.

One of the popular notions with the "alternative energy" crowd is that you put something in your yard or on your roof and when your TV is off your meter runs backward and the utilities are happy to get your power. Intuitively this seems too simple so I asked a few questions to try to noodle out some answers.

I admit my electrical knowledge is lacking, but at 66 yrs of age I doubt I will go for an EE degree. However, the curiosity still exists. Therefore, I will continue to ask questions and be thankful for folks like you who take the time to explain the finer points.

Some more questions if I may.

If the grid is up and running and the demand is unexpectedly light, what happens? Is there some kind of load that balances everything or does it just not flow?

There must be some losses from source to load. What is their nature and how are they quantified?

x beriberix, It just does not flow.

For understanding this further question, think of electricity in terms of water.

Consider a tank of water above a town, available at a certain constant pressure do to it's elevation and the force of gravity. Water is ready for use, but does not flow until someone opens a valve (completes a circuit). Also the energy required to fill the tank is fairly easy to regulate to match the usage. This equates to a battery.

Now consider a place that is flat and has a water source that is driven by well pumps with little or no storage. Water does not flow until someone opens a valve to draw water, the pumps must be running in order for the water to flow. This equates more closely to the grid since storage of AC is an issue.

If the pumps are running, and fewer than expected valves are opened, there is water at pressure available, but does not flow as much volume as expected. The issue would be the wasted fuel energy of running too many of the available pumps when they are not needed - the 'demand' for water flow being low.

Now being reasonably designed, most pump schemes, like most generators, have controls that attempt to match the energy spent in providing the availability, to the demand or usage occurring.

With the nature of the steam turbines that supply most of the energy to the grid, they can not be readily turned on and off. That can involve several days and lots of manpower. There are however several smaller generation units available to a grid that can be more readily added or removed. Some are powered by jet engines or other power sources that can respond rapidly to changes in load; these are called 'peaker' units. Management of these resources is quite complex and requires excellent planning around maintenance and contracts for supply etc.

Now as for the losses from source to load. Most of these losses are based on current flow; creating heat or iron losses (energy to shove the iron core molecules back and forth during transformation). Some losses are due to induction and capacitance related to distance in transmission, but again driven by the amount of 'flow' - similar to friction losses, small leaks and pipe diameter changes in a water piping system.

More important are losses not controlled by flow (amps), such as wasted fuel running excess generation equipment. Again this can be complex, but is where efficiency pays.

CJM

Thanks, CJ McGill, for sharing your depth of knowledge of this subject. It is worth a GA to be enlightened about this subject. Heck, a GA is letting me off on the cheap for the bushel of good info you supplied.

It sounds as if all the guys with good intentions try to put their excess generation capacity out on the grid it could make a complex system even more difficult to manage. My guess is that the fringe sources are probably out of phase, pardon the pun, with the demand for them.

Headed for the Builders Show in Lost Wages this week. This will give me plenty to ponder on the plane ride.