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Only a sundial you say.....

01/03/2009 3:39 PM

So.......this is a sundial.

So what?

So, it's acurate up to a minute, can be used to navigate and if you're really up to it will determine the latitudinal circumferance of the earth from the longtitudinal location it happens to be in.

We got gps for that!

No ya don't. Alls' ya got is a buncha geostationary satellites feeding data into a handheld gizmo based on a fictional datum. Once the electronics fizzle out all ya got left is your thumb waving in the wind.

I want one, I want one.

Ok....here's how you can make one http://www.sundials.org/links/local/schmoyer/schmoyer.htm (Sorry, link no longer available.)

And now for the question: Will the latitudinal scale be reversed south of the equator and if so, should the gnomon be reversed to compensate?

BTW...the above photo is the original casting which was stolen and damaged by hooligans. It was happily residing at the Wesleyan University in Ohio.

Apologies for not providing direct link to lengthy article below. For some reason it is quite difficult to navigate to.

Schmoyer Sunquest article from Scientific American, October, 1959

A Transistorized Drive for a Telescope, and a Sundial That Keeps Accurate Time [telescope article omitted]

------------------

by C. L. Stong

---------------------

In

The Amateur Scientist for August," writes Richard L. Schmoyer, an engineer of Landisville, Pa., "you raise the question of why a man who owns an accurate watch and several clocks will go to the trouble of building a sundial. Few will disagree with your conclusion that he is motivated in part by the intellectual charm of a device which, without moving parts, can convert the sun's changing position directly into time. But sundial-making holds other attractions for its enthusiasts. In the course of developing a sundial one is exposed to a fascinating and well-defined mixture of mathematics, geometry, geography and astronomy. The design o£ a sundial challenges our creative talents, and its construction puts our craftsmanship to an exacting test. Finally, the designer who permits the primary time-telling function of the sundial to control its form adds spice to the project. Hardware in pleasing though strange and unexpected shapes often emerges from the equations which describe the ever-changing slant of the sun's rays.


Figure 4: Details of gnomon for sundial

"These inducements led me to design a sundial last year which has become a continuing source of pleasure both to me and to my neighbors. With only a few simple settings during two seasons of the year the sundial can be made to indicate accurate clock time. It can be adjusted to the latitude and longitude of any point in the Northern Hemisphere, including those areas where clocks are changed for daylight-saving time. Clock time can be read from it to an accuracy of about one minute, even when the sky is covered by a light overcast.

"Most people find sundials attractive, so one must not altogether dismiss their ornamental properties The structure of my dial was derived from the armillary, a traditional form which continues to enjoy wide popularity. Those primarily concerned with the appearance of a sundial admire the geometric perfection of the armillary's nested rings, representing latitude, longitude, tropics, celestial equator and the ecliptic. Much the same pleasing quality is found, however, in the unsymmetrical crescent of the early and late moon. The armillary can be converted to this form by eliminating all except the rings representing latitude and longitude and opening these at one of the sides where they join at right angles. When tapered and strengthened, these rings become nested crescents, as shown in the accompanying illustration [Figure 3].

"The transformation from armillary to nested crescents demonstrates how a pleasing shape can emerge from a functional necessity. A good time-telling device should always fulfill its mission. The armillary falls short of this ideal. During part of each day its pattern of ornamental rings casts shadows on the time-scale, which is carried on the inner face of the equatorial ring. Worse, in the seasons of the equinoxes (March 21 and September 28) the scale lies in continuous shadow because the plane of the ring then parallels the sun's rays. By eliminating the useless rings and opening the functional pair into crescents the time-scale is exposed to the sun without obstruction.


Figure 4: Details of gnomon for sundial

"The structure of a sundial which indicates clock time is simple in concept if not in the making. The crescents are supported at their edges by an arrangement of bolts, slots and clamps so they can be rotated in their respective planes. The latitude crescent is made in two parts with a flange at the inner end of each. Bolts pass through the flanges and through a slot in the longitude crescent. When the nuts are tightened, the assembly becomes a rigid unit. Similarly, the edge of one member of the latitude crescent is clamped between the jaws of a split pedestal which extends up from the base. By loosening a single wing-nut the whole assembly can be rotated in the plane of the latitude crescent and in azimuth.

"A pair of holes are drilled in the latitude crescent on the diameter which coincides with the axis o£ the equatorial crescent. These holes serve as bearings to support the gnomon. It is to the unique shape of the gnomon, which compensates for the effect of the eccentricity of the earth's elliptical orbit and the tilt of its axis, that this sundial owes its property of keeping clock time. If the earth followed a circular orbit around the sun, and if its axis were perpendicular to the plane of the ecliptic, the straight gnomon of the conventional sundial would indicate clock time. The time shown by clocks is that of a fictional sun which leads the real sun by as much as 16 minutes or lags behind it up to 14 minutes, depending upon the observer's location and the season. This difference is known as the equation of time and is shown graphically as the analemma on globes, a closed curve in the form of a figure eight.

"The gnomon of my dial is related to the analemma but differs from it in that halves of the figure are separated and the ends have been stretched somewhat. Structurally the gnomon consists of a strip of cast metal bent at a right angle along its length. The apex of the angle is opened to form a thin slot. It is supported at the ends by shafts which turn in the bearings of the latitude crescent. The halves of the gnomon are bent into almost symmetrical compound curves with respect to the long axis and are therefore complementary. When either half is turned to face the sun, the curved ribbon of light which passes through the slot corresponds with the equation of time for half of the year, the remaining six months being represented by the other half. Time is indicated by the thin line of light, from the slot which falls on the time-scale between shadows cast by the halves of the gnomon.

"The portion of the curved slot through which the rays pass to the time-scale depends on the declination of the sun. In summer, sunlight falls on the dial at a high angle and reaches the time-scale through the upper part of the slot, where the curvature just compensates for a 'slow' sun. The reverse is true in the fall, when the sun is low. The winter sun is also mostly slow, and in the spring the sun goes from slow to fast to slow to fast again. Whatever the season, the sun's declination selects an appropriate portion of the curve to offset the equation of time.

"Some difficulty is encountered during the period from about December 1 through January 15, when the sun lingers close to its lowest path across the sky. During this same period, however, it speeds up with respect to the fictional sun. A lag of some 11 minutes becomes a lead of about nine minutes. The simultaneous change in declination is very small. A similar event takes place in reverse during the weeks preceding and following the summer solstice on June 21, when the real sun falls behind the fictional one, again accompanied by little change in declination. To accentuate the sundial's response during these periods, the curvature of the slot is stretched out. The gnomon must also be moved axially in its bearings, the amount of shift being determined by a stop on the shaft. The adjustment is made by hand according to a scale of dates engraved on the gnomon, as shown in the accompanying detail drawing [Figure 4].

"The designing of the gnomon' though tedious, is not difficult. One first determines the rate at which a ray of sunlight moves across the time-scale. This depends on the diameter of the crescent on which the scale is engraved and on the related distance between the scale and the gnomon. Multiply 3.1416 by the diameter of the equatorial crescent and divide the product by the number of seconds in a day. In the case of a 13-inch crescent the result is .000473. This number is used for computing the distance and direction by which the curved slot must depart from a straight line for successive weeks of the year. This procedure can be illustrated by constructing a graph of the curve for one face of gnomon. First draw a straight line equal to the radius of the proposed crescent and erect a perpendicular of about the same length above and below one end of the line. The base line represents the sun's mean elevation (0 degrees) on September 28. Next, with the end of the base line as the point of origin, extend a line to the perpendicular at an angle of 21 degrees, 34 seconds above the base line. This represents the sun's elevation on July 15. Now make a similar angle of 21 degrees, 47 seconds below the base line. This corresponds to the sun's elevation on December 1. Angles above the base line are regarded as positive and are designated 'plus'; those below are considered negative. Next, draw in angles at weekly intervals for all intermediate dates. A table showing the sun's angular elevation throughout the year can be found in any ephemeris and in many almanacs. These references also carry a table for the equation of time and list the difference between solar time and clock time in minutes and seconds. The curve for one face of the gnomon is plotted from these values. (If the thickness of the material from which the gnomon is constructed exceeds .01 inch, the curvature of the trailing edges must depart from that of the faces to avoid shadow. The same basic procedure is used in computing all curves, however.) For September 23 the equation of time has a value of -7 minutes, 35 seconds, which is equal to -455 seconds. Multiply this interval by the rate at which the ray of sunlight moves across the time-scale of the dial. In the case of my dial the computation is: .000473 X -455 = -.215. This product represents the distance in inches by which the curve of one edge of the slot in my gnomon departs from the perpendicular. (In plotting the curves all negative values are directed to the left of the perpendicular and positive values to the right.) The remaining points of the curve are similarly plotted for all intermediate dates at weekly intervals,

"The ends of the curve must be stretched out, as mentioned earlier. To accomplish this a perpendicular line is drawn through the point of origin and divided by a series o£ four points spaced a quarter of an inch apart both above and below the base line. With these points as successive origins draw in the sun's declination above the base line for the dates July 8, July l, June 26 and June 21 and below the base line for the dates December 7, 12, 17 and 22. Similarly draw in the sun's declination on the other half-face for June 1 to 21 and December 22 to January 15. The ends of the curves are then plotted from the equation of time by the method described. The full-scale drawing is then ready for translation into hardware. All major parts of my sundial were cast in aluminum. The layout was drawn directly on the wood from which the patterns were made. The time-scale is divided into hourly intervals of 15 degrees each and subdivided into minutes as desired. The graduation representing noon lies in the plane of the meridian."

This department will forward a copy in reduced scale of the layout of Schmoyer's gnomon upon receipt of a self-addressed, stamped envelope. Schmoyer advises that the patterns used in making the parts for his dial, including the gnomon, have been preserved. He has volunteered to have duplicate castings made by the local foundry upon request by those who wish to purchase a readymade set. His address is Landisville, Pa.

Bibliography

SUNDIALS: HOW TO KNOW, USE, AND MAKE THEM. R. Newton Mayall and Margaret Mayall. Charles T. Branford Company, 1958.

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#1

Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/03/2009 4:51 PM

Thanks for the link. It has been and is on the "to do" list. Having decent specs is a plus. Now for having more time! Nothing like simplicity and function utilizing what nature delivers. I look forward to trying this project or one very similar.

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#2

Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/04/2009 11:18 PM

Fascinating bit of engineering, As far as the hooligans, "Fool always destroy what they fear or do not understand." Archimedes.

Regards Dragon

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#5
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/05/2009 4:14 PM

I was going to repair the thing but I thought it better to leave the historical context alone. Still works great and is happily living in my rose garden.

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#15
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/07/2009 10:51 PM

Hello Duckinthepond:,

couldn't give you one on your original post so gave you one here.

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#3

Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/05/2009 5:58 AM

How about a digital sundial?

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#4
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/05/2009 9:04 AM

Single lightning bolt from God (engineer, y'know) should put a stripe through that technology.!

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#6

Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/06/2009 7:29 PM

interesting!, i guess the sundial can also be used to clobber those hooligans!

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#7

Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/07/2009 11:21 AM

I use one like this:

Sorry, couldn't resist.

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#8
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/07/2009 11:27 AM

If you promise to wear it I'll send you mine. I'll even mount it onto a hardhat for you.

The only condition is that you post photo of self wearing it.

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#10
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/07/2009 3:00 PM

I promise to wear it, and post a photo here. (Actually I'll do anything for the attention).

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#12
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/07/2009 3:11 PM

No way......you're not getting my sundial...........forget it!

Now I know where all those funky gizmos you own came from.

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#13
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/07/2009 3:14 PM

Oh, an Indian giver eh? Well, I fabricate my own then. You'll be green with envy my friend.

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#9

Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/07/2009 2:53 PM

Thats awesome, Duck! I am quite impressed. And thanks for the link!

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#11
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/07/2009 3:05 PM

By virtue of its simplicity it has some elegant sources of many disciplines....eg geometry, geography, astronomical positioning and navigation to mention a few. It's a complicated little bugger.

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#14

Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/07/2009 10:49 PM

Hello Duckinthepond:

You now have a GA. Thank you for finding this stupendously superb instrument! It is a beautiful object in its own right, do you not think so?

I am going to keep coming back to this because calling it a 'sun dial' hardly does it justice at all. My first thoughts were judging by the top photo, that Del had made one of his specials!

Other than 'mine', I can't imagine the mind that could conceive such a wondrous scientific instrument? Tongue firmly in cheek there.........!

Thanks again......................

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#16
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/08/2009 12:07 PM

The sundial is actually based on the principal of astronomical arc geometry. The above instrument, an 1895 Gurley transit, uses likewise positioning fundamentals which, though they have become much more accurate in todays instruments, nevertheless, remain mathematically unchanged to this day.

Even though digital measure has become the venue of choice it nevertheless requires extremely precise mechanics coupled to it. Some bearing races and surfaces must be measured in angstrom units to facilitate the accuracy modern digital instruments.

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#17
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/08/2009 6:09 PM

Hello Duckinthepond:

Amazing instrument/s! And still the 'Bible to which we should still have to check measurements by when the www goes awal!

Thank you for your post.........

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#18
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/09/2009 7:14 PM

Looks like my PQ-38 space annhialotor has been stolen!

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#19
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/10/2009 1:23 PM

It must've eloped with the flying saucer you built...........

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#20
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/10/2009 4:09 PM

Ha,

Think your funny, huh Ducky?

If you're interested, I'll tell you about my saucer design (atmospheric use only).

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#21
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/10/2009 5:40 PM

Ok, I'll bite.........better not look like mine tho.........

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#22
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/10/2009 5:51 PM

Take me to your leader

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#27
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/11/2009 8:46 AM

I thought you were our leader...........

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#23
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/10/2009 6:15 PM

Ha, You did bite.

Now I've got to dig up that sketch.

See if you can imagine this. The center is a plexiglass sphere which is divided into cockpit and engine compartment.

At four points around the equatorial circumfrence there are wheels of about 6 inch diameter on the outside of sphere attached to electric motors on the inside. There are also a series of idlers above and below the drive wheels.

The saucer disk is made up of 2 counter rotating fans. Assuming an 8 foot diameter cockpit, the fan diameter should be 16 feet.

Above and below the fans is a shroud, the face of which is covered with adjustable louvers by which forward, reverse and side to side motion can be controled. these are all connected to a joy stick.

If you still need to see the sketch I'll try to make it available.

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#24
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Re: Only a saucer you say.....

01/10/2009 7:20 PM

I've found a pile of 'em!

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#26
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Re: Only a saucer you say.....

01/11/2009 8:00 AM

There IS more to this than meets the eye.

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#25
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/11/2009 7:59 AM

There's obviously more to this than meets the eye.

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#28
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/11/2009 9:39 AM
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#29
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/11/2009 10:27 AM

I suppose you've got that and an Avro Arrow stashed in your basement....

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#30
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/11/2009 10:31 AM

Actually that's the avrocar. The Avro_Arrow is a different beast altogether. Mom's the word as to what's actually stashed in the cellar....

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#31
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/11/2009 10:42 AM

Yeah...I know it's the avrocar....we want the Arrow back.

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#32

Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/15/2009 4:29 AM

Thank you for this post. Just back from holidays and looking through old topics. Made simple armillary dials for many years. This has rekindled the interest, what a beautiful design.

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#36
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/15/2009 12:15 PM

With an armillary you're most of the way there! Just a question of fine tuning the thing.

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#33

Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/15/2009 4:38 AM

Hey,
Somehow I'd missed this thread...
That is really nice, thanks for posting it.

Del <prrrr wub>

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#34
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/15/2009 12:03 PM

Thankyou ....I think there is a shared affinity for those 'useless' devices that somehow still manage to connect the past with the present. I know I'm off my nut but oddly, I'm thinking how a crossbow would work in similar configuration to the sundial...or maybe a quad slingshot vectored at 45' with trigger release mounted on a gunstock.....cheers

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#35
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/15/2009 12:10 PM

How about a really big crossbow that uses trucksprings for limbs and perhaps a 5/8" steel rod for an arrow... They built some big spear throwing devices on junkyard wars. For whatever reason neither of the teams thought about using trucksprings...ok...I'm really rambling now...

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#37
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/15/2009 12:22 PM

Gad........did you read that in a former post of mine? Such a contraption was built by the former employees of United Keno Hill Mines because there was nothing better to do. It was disassembled because the 6' x 1.5" drill iron penetrated a large spruce and continued on to infinity never to be found. That thing was lethal.

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#38
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/15/2009 3:17 PM

I don't think so...unless I glanced at it and it somehow entered my subconscience. Did you actually post something about it? is there any information about their contraption?

I can't help but wonder if such a low tech device could be an effective antiarmor weapon.

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#39
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/15/2009 3:27 PM

Large truck spring mounted on a chassis of steel with a geared hand winch and 3/8 wire rope. Arrows were drill rods each weighing close to 20 lbs. The thing was lethal and the guys who built it had the good sense to tear it down (but not before having a lot of fun firing the companys drill irons across the valley).

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#45
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/16/2009 3:03 PM

Hello DAG,

Just to say I do not have a TV now but when I did the 'English' version of that program was the best thing on TV!

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#46
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/16/2009 3:07 PM

Hello Duckinthepond,

I thought the Sundial looked quite a bit like a bow?

Sorry for interupting.........

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#47
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/16/2009 3:56 PM

Actually...it is a bow in a sense.

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#40

Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/15/2009 6:14 PM

OK Ducky, I'm ba-ack...

I couldn't find the original saucer drawing so I had to draw it again. With the encroaching arthritus in my hands it took me awhile.

Hopefully you can decipher the notes.

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#41
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/15/2009 9:02 PM

That looks like the one Bricktop stashed in his basement.

(Unfortunately I couldn't read the script)

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#42
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/15/2009 10:03 PM

Yeah,

I downloaded Alibre's free CAD software a while ago but I haven't got the hang of it yet. Those pencil drawings don't come accross very well.

I'll try to do better next time. Maybe after my upcoming back surgery.

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#43
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/16/2009 4:00 AM

No, NO...NO ! That's the plans of your secret over unity engine!
Fortunately you left off the crucial magnets and the HHO tank.
Del

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#48
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/16/2009 4:35 PM

I guess it's a good thing you couldn't read the notes. It has magnetic bearings on the fan disks and the genset, though not specified, is a multifuel, external combustion rotary.

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#44
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

01/16/2009 2:59 PM

Hello Shadetree,

You did a good job of the drawing. Though I cannot read the notes, sorry.

Take care.................

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#49

Re: Only a sundial you say.....

08/26/2012 9:22 PM

Do you still have your sundial? And Have you learned anything more about it's history?

I have just acquired an example that appears to be the same as yours, The gentleman I purchased it from told me that a friend of his in Canada had it cast and had made several of them, He could not remember any other details.

It notice it differs slightly from the Schmoyer Sunquest , having a flat gnomon, and a different style base than the other dials I see that are identified as being Schmoyer dials.

One other thing what is that strange white stuff covering the ground?

John

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#50
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

08/27/2012 11:20 AM

Hi John

The ones we have were cast in Canada and are extremely rare to find. After the original was destroyed it's my understanding that the second style came into fabrication and was given to Schmoyer as an outdoor exhibit piece where yet again it was vandalized. I would be very interested to discover who it was that originally changed the design and began making the new castings. I had once been told it was a tool/die company close to Sarnia, On.

ps the white stuff is a thing of the past these days.

Good find!

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#51
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

08/27/2012 11:53 AM

Very interesting, I can make out the word CANADA in the casting on the bottom. There may be four other words there but layers of paint are obscuring them.

The gentleman I purchased mine from is a retired petroleum engineer. He is 85 years old and mentioned that it was a friend of his that had designed and had them cast.

He suggested that I could contact him in the future so I may do just that.

Do you believe that the dials that we have pre date 1959?? Besides your dial, this is the only other info I have been able to find. http://www.precisionsundials.com/schmoyer.htm

The only white stuff we get in So. Cal. is sand and dust...

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#52
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Re: Only a sundial you say.....

08/27/2012 12:20 PM

Personally I'm of the opinion that the style we have is post 1959. I've seen the original and it is differrent. Also, there's a co. in England making reproductions along the original design lines.

I'd be very interested in any information you'd find. Mine does not have "Canada" in the casting and I was told was the original replacement gift for the one which was vandalized.

What's interesting is That the gent you got it from is a petroleum engineer........Sarnia, Ontario just happens to be a refinery town.

ps I got mine in 1975. It was not painted and is aluminium cast. It's accuracy is within 1 arc minute.

Wow!

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#53

Re: Only a sundial you say.....

10/04/2015 3:04 PM

Richard L. Schmoyer, the designer of the Sunquest sundial, was my grandfather. I would be happy to try to answer any questions that you may have.

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