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Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 1:59 AM

This is an idea I had. Basically an offshore hydroelectric plant, where the dam is a very large cylindrical shape, heavily reinforced, buttressed, etc. to withstand all forces. The idea is that the wind turbines will pump out the water, and then the water turbines will be installed in the gravity base of the installation. (accessable from internal elevators), with large gate valves to control flow. Allowing internal oriented upwelling flow is what drives the electrical generators. Once the cylinder is full, it will have to be pumped out, but as long as there is wind energy (or solar, wave, thermal), this can be continuous. It could be used in lakes or oceans.

Like a dam, the system has energy on demand, provided the cylinder is pumped out. Like the Hibernia project (but larger), it could be built onshore, and towed out to depth. Presumable a few hundred feet would be optimal. (like a dam) and then the limits to power are the limits to construction methods. Once the basic technology is proven, the systems can begin to increase in size. If the system is not too far offshore, then underwater cables can deliver the power to the grid. (maybe an underwater access tunnel too?)

I would appreciate any comments or criticisms. I'm just imagining alternatives...

Chris

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#1

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 2:40 AM

This isn't a new idea, and the biggest problem will be the fact that it will use more energy to pump the water out than you will get from the hydro generators.

This is one of the main reasons why hydroelectric generation sites utilise water storage AND gravity to produce on demand power.

A much better idea is a solar updraft tower.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower

Tidal flow generation is also looking promising and developing at a good pace.

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 11:10 AM

Thank you Jack of all trades.

the wind turbines will do the pumping. The system doesn't require real estate. Hopefully it would be movable, like hibernia oil project, and could probably even have resort or condominium living made out of it. Once created, the system would be able to reliably produce energy for decades, and it is green energy.

With hydroelectric dams, there is significant issues with the damage, risks, and indiginous people displacement. This has none of those issues. This is a purely technical challenge, and doesn't risk contaminating the water enviroment either.

I'll put together some other images to develop the multi-function parts of it, but just wanted to get feedback on the viability. Perhaps it could even incorporate the solar updraft tower.

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#8
In reply to #3

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 1:56 PM

the wind turbines will do the pumping. The system doesn't require real estate.

Yes I thought you would bring that up. The proposed design has the advantage of storage for peak demand, and the advantage of low land real estate, but there are a few real-world gotchas that you need to be aware of, such as wind turbines (and hence the offshore plant) need to be placed in specific areas to ensure they produce a large enough yearly energy generation to make them worthwhile. People think you can just put up a wind turbine anywhere and get vast quantities of energy, it just doesn't happen that way. The turbine is at the mercy of the wind.

Although these do cause viability issues with the idea, there are still cases where this may be viable, such as in places where a high base load generation is not available and most of the existing power comes from variable sources like wind. One place that springs to mind is Hawaii. Tidal generation performing the pumping to empty the reservoir may actually be a more viable option than wind (possibly cheaper, more efficient and more constant predictable pumping). Currently there is at least one project that uses wave energy to compress air and transport it onshore, the same principle could be used to pump water out of the reservoir. Something to seriously consider (although it will limit the plant site placement a little more).

There is one further advantage that seems stupid but is in fact a reality (well down here anyway). We have vast hydro resources for a small country (one of the highest in the world for our size), yet we cannot get consent to build any new hydro dams because of the politically correct and green-movement crowd. The last big project died (in part) because they thought that the freshwater that could be discharged into the ocean could potentially kill a specific type of fish. No scientific evidence was supplied. Having the far less efficient design hydro plant offshore may get a better chance of building consent.

Oh, we haven't fixed our hydro problems yet, at the moment we are installing large wind farms instead (I should know, its part of my job). This still leaves us with our base load generation, which (wait for it) is supplied in part by coal shipped to us on barges from overseas. We ship our high-grade coal to Australia for steel production.

Some people think we can just pull watts out of our ass but the power has to come from somewhere. Madness.

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 3:01 PM

That gets a GA from me. I have something more to add, but will have to prepare it first. I love your attitude. I feel the same way.

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#149
In reply to #8

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

03/31/2009 4:29 AM

Hi, Jack

Freshwater would not kill any marine fishes, that is not possible unless they would want to chlorine water in process.... Simple fact that mixing of freshwater already occurs where You want to build those dams was overlooked :-)) But dams cover by water areas that were not under water before, destroying ecosystem at this location that has been developed for millenia, and if this is unique enough then it it worth preserving, don't You think? What should also be considered is some fishes that possibly migrate up river to lay eggs, like Salmons, for instance, so system of stairway like basins should be built that would enable fishes to bypass the dam.

Incidentally, Chris design would be good base for my type of new windpower station of MW capacity that could use even weaker winds, and at sea there is some wind most of the time, at least where I live (Adriatic Sea). But as I explained in my other post, Solar power could be used to pump water also, and surely You have enough sunshine in New Zealand I presume? Then I believe there is high tide and power of waves that could be harnessed to pump water as well, just I would pump water in, not out of reservoir........

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Marijan Pollak, ITSA/SE 1st. Class, Instructor and Team Leader (retired)

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#148
In reply to #3

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

03/31/2009 4:02 AM

Dear Chris,

Idea is good, just one thing is IMHO upside down: water should be pumped INTO reservoir, not out. Then gravity and weight of water would do work, and one can regulate when system would be used, where in Your system it could be used only when there is wind.....

Reservoir could also be filled by Solar steam generator which could also be Solar still and salt production system, by using pressure of steam under bell shaped enclosure with basin of sea water inside that would be refilled by using one way ball ventile system, which could also be used to siphon surplus steam that would be condensed in deeper sea water in glass coils (could use recycled glass) or special glass bricks from which walls of this reservoir could be built......... Steam pressure on surface of water should using hydraulic forces pump water into big reservoir using pipes with one way ball ventiles also.

But here size is great factor and it is not 100% ecologically friendly regardless if reservoir would be in the sea or on the shore. Space should be used in any case, and on shore it could be masked to fit scenery, or this could be used as artificial lake or enormous swimming pool. Perhaps also it could be used to grow marine fishes like Tunas, and there control of waste produced would be better as it could be filtered out, but then filters should be enormous to allow such quantity of water to be used for production of electricity..........

In areas of high tides already some people were thinking of use for sea water two ways: one system of turbines powered by sea coming in enclosed space by tide and other using water coming out when surrounding sea is at lower level. But to be functional, reservoir should be large indeed, and so would have to be this one You propose if You would use tide water filling also.

How would You make such system transportable, if You intend to get any significant quantity of electricity out of it, I dont know.......

Regards,

Marijan Pollak

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#77
In reply to #1

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/28/2009 3:42 PM

Dear jack,
I noticed two significant errors or disputable premises in the Wikipedia concept
dissertation on Solar updraft towers, albeit the physics of its operation are fundamentally correct. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower )
I concur that the payback period of 2-3 years puts this system in high contention for implementation, however.

1) Construction in hot areas is a flawed premise; rather they should be in high deserts which while hot during daylight hours, the ambient air temperatures drop significantly such as to increase the efficiency of stored thermal mass energy. I.E., the Sonora desert in summer gets up to 120 degrees Fahrenheit some summer days making it tough to get sufficient tower heating effects to cause thermal rise in the tower; however stored energy in a thermal mass base would make those systems very effective when the air temperature plummets to 40 or so degrees after sundown because the high desert air has little moisture and clear skys at night to retain heat.
2) Right on the heels of the above flawed "hot areas" premise is that they should be constructed in "otherwise degraded land." Don't tell that to a tree-hugger my friend. Folks who like wild places will put a terrific fight up if one of their coyotes, banded armadillos or speckle skinks or rare plants are threatened.

One of the proven methods now being used in the State of Israel is the use of reflectors to improve on and concentrate solar power collection for both electrical power production and steam generation. It would seem a no brainer to decrease the needed land mass for a solar updraft system to heat the shadowed side of the tower with reflectors and deflect even more energy into the ground level heat sinks, too.

I am a great admirer of their use of solar ponds out in the desert for heat sinks in which they have acres and acres of 4 foot deep impermeably, black-lined ponds with a manifold of stainless piping with pumped sodium solution circulating through them, lying on the bottom; covered by 3 feet of sea water and a top layer of filtered clear fresh water as a collection system to run their low pressure turbine generators day and night, as well. The fresh water is the infrared trap. 200 degree sea water temperatures are the norm. Cheap beyond belief to operate. Anything that USES nature to make power just FEELS right, you know? The lower tech it is, the better.

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#150
In reply to #77

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

03/31/2009 5:17 AM

Hi, Tinker65

I would say You got it wrong about this system as chimney heating could help but is not necessary as heat is collected in greenhouses on ground level and hot air is channeled to this 1 Km chimney. There was discussion of this otherwhere, as main problem is to find materials that would stand its own weight in first place. I suggested boring vertically some mountains of appropriate height and also constructing tunnels around that would bring hot air collected in greenhouses at base of mountain to this vertical bore. But greenhouses would devastate ecological system even if top cover is made of transparent glass, as air would gather velocity closer it move to feeder tunnels, so even plants would not be able to grow there normally.... If they put black material on the ground, then surely such area cannot be used for anything else, and plan is to use square kilometers to collect enough hot air. With 1000 m high chimney temperature difference on top is already high enough for thing to function and so cooler night air does not help process any, it rather depletes accumulated temperature, and clear sky also help to irradiate IR energy into space, so it does not help either......

So in principle, hotter place is, more energy could be reaped, provided we could build so high chimneys... I would put graphite plates outside on chimney and connect to chimney hole to additionally heat air traveling trough chimney up, as it conducts temperature efficiently, but some way to disconnect those two layers in the night or even eastern facing side in afternoon and western side in the morning to prevent that temperature travel in reverse, also on walls of tunnels leading hot air into chimney to prolong usage of accumulated heat and make it more even during peak heating period.....

In that particular case I suggested to use greenhouse gases to capture IR radiation inside greenhouses by making glass roof into compartments filled by CO2 instead of air, which would IMHO use harmful >>Global Warming<< effect to our advantage in this case :-))

I had idea how to make artificiall whirlwind that would be >>chained<< to its source and therefore work regardless wether it is day or night, but now it is late as I have read that allready they are building such towers in India.........

Regards,

Marijan Pollak, IT SA/SE 1st. Class, Instructor and Team Leader (retired)

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#139
In reply to #1

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

02/08/2009 10:23 PM

Dear jack of all trades,

you wrote "This isn't a new idea" and I've been searching and can't find any other references to similar ideas, other than the one posted by JDretired, for the offshore island dam. would you mind pointing me in the right direction please?

Thanks,

Chris

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#2

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 9:04 AM

If you are using the wind turbine (or solar or whatever) to pump out the water- why don't you use the same mech to generate the electricity itself ? that will at the very least save the cost of construction and also the efficiency of 2 turbines+ one Gen Vs that of one turbine and one Gen.

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#5
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Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 11:29 AM

Thank you SB

One of the key benefits to this system is the storage factor, which allows a system like this, even small in capacity, to help offset the cost of peak energy demands. If the unit is already pumped, out, then the wind/solar/thermal/wave energy systems can be added to the grid.

Chris

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 1:25 PM

Amen!

I wish they would work a little harder on the grid penetration problem--The energy lost because of an effort to create some kind of storage is completely reasonable, in my opinion.

All these thousands of wind turbines should be lifting something and generating off gravity. Wind has an attendance around or less than a third of the time and the power produced when they do run isn't at a constant rate.

Anyway Chrisg288, I am glad you are working on it and I think you are right on the money. Thanks

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#32
In reply to #7

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 11:26 AM

Kilgore Trout,

Can you explain to me what "grid penetration" is please?

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#34
In reply to #32

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 12:03 PM

This is the last few lines of this link http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy01osti/30668.pdf :

This paper examines the operating characteristics of the wind-diesel system in Kotzebue, Alaska, operated by Kotzebue Electric Association (KEA). KEA began incorporating wind power into its 100% diesel generating system in 1997 with three 66 kW wind turbines. In 1999, KEA added another seven 66 kW turbines, resulting in the current wind capacity of 660 kW. KEA is in the process of expanding its wind project again and ultimately expects to operate 2-3 MW of wind capacity. With a peak load of approximately 4 MW and a minimum load of approximately 1.6 MW, the wind penetration is significant. KEA is currently experiencing greater than 35% wind penetration, sometimes for several consecutive hours. This paper discusses the observed wind penetration at KEA and evaluates the effects of wind penetration on power quality on the KEA grid.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermittent_power_source

How much can we depend on wind and can we supplant current power sources with it? It may be an antiquated term, but was widely used while this era of wind farming began developing where I grew up.

K T

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#78
In reply to #34

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/28/2009 4:27 PM

Kilgore Trout

I am a staunch advocate of wind power. However, always, always, always there are those, in the Public Utility Arena that know from the get-go how to subvert the purpose of any form of generated energy. Bear with me.

Here in the states a number of years ago, a so-called "Progressive" Texas Governor George Bush implemented a Wind Turbine initiative that resulted in our state having one of the largest collective wind turbine systems in the world. Who benefits? The primary investors who got sweet heart deals in the form of tax write offs and carbon footprint reduction penalty's for their oil pump-jacks and oil cracking plants in this state. In fact, because, some how it was not noticed, there being insufficient electric grid to carry the surplus electricity away - they also benefit the oil pump-jack owners by having to discount their Megawatt production down to pennies on the dollar; thus contributing multiple billions in profits to the oil concerns in this state because the cost of pumping formerly too expensive oil to get it to the surface - is made profitable ONLY because of the surplus Wind Farm Electricity. It's no accident that the Wind Turbine Towers cast their shadows directly over the formerly capped off pump-jacks.

To add insult to injury. The Public Utility Commission in this state has the rules set up such that, because Wind-Turbines can only reliably become optimally efficient at night, when electric demand is lowest; that there is a bidding system for off-line coal plants to only start selling their energy during peak demand periods of the day - especially in the summertime, when wind turbines are likely to be barely able to light a single light bulb; a well known phenomenon especially during blistering doldrum summer. The coal fired utilities are gouging as much as $1000 U.S.D. per megawatt as a result, knowing that the wind farms can't balance the load during summer daylight hours.

Wind farms HAVE to be built and used such that they are not going to actually cause the idled coal fired generation plants to go off line if any form of sanity is to come from building wind farms. Off peak wind powered pumping, the core of this thread, is a great idea, very much needed. This and off peak storage of heated sodium systems and other thermal mass or battery systems are the direction we need to look in, in my opinion, due to the realities of when and how energy from nature are available; throw in seasonal variables and it is quite the puzzle.

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#94
In reply to #78

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/29/2009 7:56 PM

I concur.

It just seems to be panic that leverages funds for alternatives--Hardly any chance for new ideas.

As far as energy is concerned--How about this: Check the power output of John Day Dam, then The Dalles Dam and then Bonneville Dam and compare them. Wikipedia has ballpark figures. I should start a thread if anyone is interested in it.

I support new ideas and alternatives whole heartedly and find the ideas here fun to contemplate. We can also refine what we have for huge gains and low impact.

One prediction--The energy contract that is populating rural areas with wind turbines is going to expire(?) and will not be expanded and will likely end that gold rush, for now.

Good time for new ideas.

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#4

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 11:27 AM

Thank you jdretired,

that looks very similar. great to know there is something else out there. Probably the costs of building an island are similar to building an concrete gravity base and cylinder. It has been interesting to watch the construction of the new lands in Dubai (although connnected to shore)

I think if multiple green energy systems are applied, then they can overlap, and provide ongoing available energy to the mainland for the grid. As per Marshall Savage's plans, in his "Millenial Project", he proposes using Blue-Green algae (spirulina) to feed people, in an offshore island city, as well as Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion energy systems.

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#13
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Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 9:42 PM

I think if multiple green energy systems are applied, then they can overlap, and provide ongoing available energy to the mainland for the grid.

This is the thinking I believe to be paramount to the success of a viable green system.

Just as the plane, lever, pulley etc are the foundations for the most complex mechanical systems. If we look at gravity, solar, wind, tidal as the foundations of energy we can create a vast 'machine'.

Even more so than the mechanics. If we argue that the planet exists as a whole working machine that is near perfect in it's symbiotic ability to maintain homeostasis we quickly find ourselves working with nature and all applicable laws rather than manipulating the environment's will to our own. We are rather coaxing than thrashing.

It is a much gentler beast which is tamed by the gentle hand. The attempts to harness the power of the creature that is Earth should be no less so.

On a different (?) note with similar sentiment - I have toyed with concepts where motion can be sustained through transferring (displacing) a heavier gas with a lighter than air gas. Again the notion being to allow nature to do what nature does and harness the results.

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#16
In reply to #13

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 9:59 PM

Thank you TexasCharley,

very poetic, and very true. Good answer.

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#22
In reply to #13

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 12:09 AM

GA, and poetic to boot.

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#92
In reply to #13

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/29/2009 5:48 PM

Here's another idea.. don't know if it has ever been proposed.. too lazy to look..lol.. a wave driven pumping arrangement. It would have to be tuned (weights, lever length, and pump stroke) to the average wave size, in order to be effective. anybody ever seen anything like this? let me know. Also, it would obviously need to be limited to protect it from really huge waves. any other related ideas or modifications? (drawn in visio)

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#93
In reply to #92

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/29/2009 6:00 PM

ooops.. did some searching after all.. found this one called the Free Flow 69 wave pump.. even simpler. and part of a larger multifunction system..

and this, the Sea Dog wave pump

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#100
In reply to #92

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/30/2009 11:55 AM

I also like this one.. although it uses wind energy.. its very similar to my scheme

http://www.rexresearch.com/kelley/kelley.htm

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#152
In reply to #100

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

03/31/2009 6:10 AM

My Lord, what complicated system!

No wonder he has to build it by >>trial & error<<...

Last of all, any strong wind will rip it apart, there is no protection at all.......

There is also one weak point because obviously blades or wings should be turned by force to reverse direction of wind action, if I got it right how it is supposed to function.............

Perhaps usable as pump but not for direct energy production.

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#102
In reply to #92

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/30/2009 2:44 PM

Here's another wave driven generating idea I had. It's similar to pelamis, but I prefer rafts to cylinder's and smaller sizes. This is more conformal to the wave than pelamis. Each module has 4 small generators on it, and produces current, regardless of the direction of motion. I envision that each module might only be 1 foot horizontally in this picture, and 2 feet tall. wood would be fine for the body. each generator would be a permanent magnet unit, and force electrons to move in the common conductor, connected to a power conditioning unit onshore, to make it usable.

I don't know if you can see it well, but there are red and green cables connecting the capstans (blue circles) in an alternating pattern. friction will cause the capstans to turn, directly connected to the generators. The modules are joined together in the center sections for articulating. Chris

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#151
In reply to #4

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

03/31/2009 5:38 AM

I would say Spirulina is poisonous tropical sea algae we are fighting in Adriatic sea as it were brought by ships and it is destroying our marine flora and fauna :-((

There is an algae called Chlorella that produces fats and amino acids as well as sugars, that needs just some light source and CO2 to grow (they used it in Russian atomic submarines to produce oxygen. It is not edible since it also produce some poisonous substances, but with little Genetic Engineering such poison production could be eliminated..... It is one cell algae and therefore double each two hours :-))

Russians produced 2 Kg of algae per day in 300 l tank.....

One day I could perhaps build cookies factory that would be transportable and would use just water from air and Solar energy in form of light and electricity.

That would be perfect help for people to produce food out of season or after some disaster. One machine would be able to feed cca 300 families or 1500 persons.

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#176
In reply to #151

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

07/04/2011 8:27 PM

Corella sounds good. Will approximately 9 lbs of corella powder sustain, (for one day?) 1500 persons? This may be off-topic.

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#177
In reply to #151

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

07/05/2011 12:30 PM

do you mean this poisonous Spirulina?

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#178
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Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

07/05/2011 5:14 PM

No, that I serve only to friends and family, sorry....

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#6

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 11:53 AM

Technically I feel the concepts works.

This can be like the tidal generator (bulb turbines- with low head and high flow ? - as learnt 2 gens back in power plant engineering in college- however totally disconnected from hydel so don't know the state of art.)

You can also consider filling a pond or just off shore dammed sea - thereby saving some construction - of going deep sea . A serries of your wind generators can fill the pond, and additionally tidal energy too can be used.

Check the economics

Also as alternate check whether you can store the electricity itself in fuel cells.

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#54
In reply to #6

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/25/2009 1:05 PM

Thank you SB,

I think I missed something on my first reading of your post. "off shore dammed sea". Would this be a semicircular dam, with top of the arch furthest out to sea? That could work, although I'm sure the environmental people would complain about the impact on shoreline life. It would be easier to construct, and would probably be a better way of proving all concepts involved in an offshore application.

I think that there must be a parametric breakdown of the design inputs, based on the amount of power to be generated. For example, if one wanted to generate an amount of power equal to any given hydroelectric dam project on a river, then the volume of water allowed through the subsurface turbines would have to be the same. It then follows that the pumping capacity of all other energies would have to amount to the same value. I read that the higher the dam, the more efficient it is, but I also believe that puts our cost, and buoyancy up, which then suggests that the radius should increase, in order to maintain the same flow rate. Also, a larger diameter system is more stable, though more expensive. Larger enables more supplementing technologies to be implemented to make a more comprehensive application. Larger also enables more living/working space.

One reason that I think living space is important is it allows this structure to act as a fundamental focus for the people who live there, and operate it. The top priorities of life are water, food, shelter, and energy. (clothing, tools, equipment, transportation, communication, security, government, law, etc) I think that if this system is going to work, it is because there is a thriving infrastructure that supports it. Given that, there is no reason why such a community couldn't last 100 years or more, continuously maintained.

Chris

PS. my significant other says this looks like a muffin cup with a phallic thingy in the middle.

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#75
In reply to #54

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/27/2009 8:39 AM

Sorry have been off office for a day

Yes I meant the dam on shore (you save on the wall )

And the hydels work on ywo principles (as per my old knowledge

Impulse - the pelton needs high head

reactions - kaplan, bulb etc need the flow.

The tidals work on this high flow model (bulb turbines)- kinally it is the KE you are converting.

So if you collect a lot of water in your off shore dam and allow it to drain out in sea through your turbine, using the additional effects of tides (once - or twice a day ? forgot my geography)

look at this side too.

you get heads and flows and the winds.

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#76
In reply to #75

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/27/2009 11:19 AM

Thank you SB. I understand now, and agree. Tides are mostly twice a day, but that depends on your location. some places are once a day. They also vary in height and time, depending on the solar system configuration and season.

Chris

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#153
In reply to #54

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

03/31/2009 7:41 AM

Dear Chris,

>>It then follows that the pumping capacity of all other energies would have to amount to the same value.<<.......

No.

If wind is present 1/3 of time, then wind driven pump capacity should be at least 3 times greater, or better still 9 times to adjust for weak and too strong wind (when You have to stop windpower turbines if they are standard model that is in contemporary use).

I again repeat that it would be better to pump water in than to pump it out, at least because You can use those pumps using energy of wawes also. But except for Tsunami, if there is no wind there is no wawes, no? Also I think some sort of tidal pump can be constructed, and at least this comes regulary like clockwork, right?

>>Expensive<< is relative and elastic meaning word, proper word to use is >>economical<<.... If for greater expenses You get stability and at least proportionall increase in capacity, then it is ecconomicall to spend more, specially if difference in capacity of production is greater than just proportionall, but if one spend more and get less increase in capacity, it is uneconomicall, but can be still considered if there is demand to fulfill, only unit production price would be higher.......

Now, to use this structure for living You would have to make it waterproof in first place and put windows like for small submarines or boats. I say this because there bound to be situations where sea level and level of water inside would be equall, reaching allmost to top, is it not so? That is more costly, therefore electricity would cost more. Then one must think about maintenance and repairs, once that thing is installed and operationall, which would also be hard to do as You have to build under the sea in first place.... Therefore, one more reason to build it on shore and pump water in instead of out...... I agree that circular structures are strongest, but that would spoil scenery unless it would be close or inside some city, and would have other uses than electricity production (Aquatic park or aquarium, or at least extra large swimming pool), and then it could be used as temperature storage, too....... It could be part of large public garage system as it could contain spiral pathways and with some additionall materiall many levels with parking places could be built more cheaply than by itself, and its lifts could be powered by electricity produced........

In places other than near sea such systems could also be built, if clean water is available, but same water could also be reused, like in case of dams that somebody mentioned allready, or there could be two such structures and water could be continuously pumped from one into other and water height difference used to produce electricity. It would help if one that supply water is on higher position, but then it may be used to store just surplus energy as at least half of electricity can be used directly. But since water turbines have no problem with variable supply like wind and because direct use of wind dont impose speed restrictions while pumping water, it would be cheaper to produce electricity that way in the long run, specially if circular reservoir would be made of thick stainless steel plates argon welded, and then building (public garage, office space, hotel or whatever) would incorporate its supporting structures invisibly and thus cost would pay itself back faster while it would be earthquake secure, and nobody should fear there would not be enough water in case of fire :-))

I would build it to look like great castle and place big moats around and big artificiall lake in front where regates could be held, people could swim and so on. Its water could be repelenished with rainwater from hotel/castle roofs, and my new type of windpower stations would not be so conspicious, nor make any harmfull noises like infrasounds, so soon they would be on hotel or factories roofs standardly :-))

If somebody build it like I described, kindly give me some credit for idea, and some money would not be bad also :-))

Regards, Marijan Pollak

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#154
In reply to #153

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

03/31/2009 8:37 AM

"If somebody build it like I described, kindly give me some credit for idea, and some money would not be bad also :-))"

I can't help you with the money, but I got a letter from a man in Nigeria last night. He claims he has a bank account that he needs some one to transfer the money in it to. This sounds almost too good to be true.........

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#155
In reply to #154

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

03/31/2009 1:54 PM

Such I receive dozen per day :-(( I always explain that I need Notarized Agreement that sender is investing money in my company, but they want to send money, fast, faaaast! I also get few millions of Euro, Dollars or British Pounds every day on Lottery, or inherit fortune from some member of >>Helicopter Society<<, but I know that all this stories end with asking me to send few hundred to severall thousands of Euro for one expense or another...........

If You see empty >>To:<< line or it does not show Your email address, delete it!

If person is not knowing Your name and call You >>Dear Friend<<, delete it!

Any offers for work that is from page that computer cannot find is just checking if your email is valid, so they could send You dozens of products You dont need......

Whatever looks too good to be true, isnt true, forget it!

I have got >>Job<< of receiving money for Mr. James Mason who presented himself as owner of some company from UK, and their >>Client<< Mr. Allan Brown from Canada has sent me check on US $35,767.38 that I submited for bank clearance.

Check was from Royal Bank of Canada, but from some company, not personall, and it has passed clearance, to my surprise and still greater surprise from Mr. Mason and Mr. Brown that wanted me to send as fast as possible 6000 US $ by Western Union to some person in America. Since I was waiting to get officiall (and originall) employment papers from this company, I kept asking Mr. Mason to send them.... But then I got email from Mr. Mason that there are some impostors who contact me in regard to this money, telling that I should listen only his orders. Needles to say, he wanted money to be sent to someone else by WU, even if he agreed before that I would send money only to his company Bank account and nowhere else. I asked for documents again and he told me to create documents myself. I asked how could I know that HE is >>real<< Mr. James Mason, and not impostor. Therefore I told that I shall send money only when I have original and Notarized documents about this employment and authorization to receive company money. In the meantime I checked this company and it was there on address given, but owner was Ian, not James Mason, and he knew nothing about this company whose check was. I called RBC and asked them to tell me is this company Bank account in order.... To that I got answer that >>they must not check Bank account of client without written permission<<.... I told that this is funny as somebody may hack his own account, blow up deposit amount and then pay with check that would be exactly in size of created difference :-)) Then of course this >>client<< would not want that they check his account, would he? Lady said she cannot do anything about it, and then I asked statement from Bank that they would not ask me to return this money for any imaginable reason because they checked it all and check passed Bank clearance process... I got answer that I must request such statement trough the Bank which has initiated clearance proces with RBC, so I also requested this from my Bank in Croatia. I also called company whose check was and they told me they dont do any business with this UK Company. But man was one of two who signed this check, and he told how bank has called and told they have got falsified check. I have told him that check was genuine, signed by him and other man and has passed Bank clearance, so it cannot be falsified. He told me that he appreciate information and that I would be properly rewarded, and asked if I could send fax of this check. I had photocopy and so I have sent it.... Next day my bank called that RBC has given them order to froze my accounts and send them money. They nicely send all money from this account, including my own.... Also, they reported me to Police, saying that they discovered falsified check, but I have allready reported case there, so I was clear. But nobody has done anything to arest those people, and both RBC and this company started deleting mails received from me without reading them at all........

Of course, from promised reward there was no trace....

So, be honest man, ha?

Here I have company 16 years, and just when I earn some money, Bank colapse, big debtor declare bankrupcy, somebody deliver my goods and company told me they did not receive anything, just because man forgot to ask for signature, and then men suicide, or my dear Traveling representatives send 100,000.00+ Euro worth package uninsured to save money and misdeclare it to just 1000 US $ value to save on postage too, and then feriboat sunk on the river with 138 passengers drowned and of course my goods went down riwer as well.......... Since 35.000,00 Euro worth of goods was paid by American Express Company Cards, I am in debt beside losing all capital I earned, money from mortgaged property........

Therefore I really need money, else I would not ask......

It is funny since I invented things where I would be able to earn milions of Euro fast, and I cannot pay even for patent application........

Regards from Zagreb, the capitol of Croatia, Europe!

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#156
In reply to #155

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

03/31/2009 2:49 PM

I am sorry to hear of your financial problems. But there is some good news for you. You appear to be done with that $35,767.38 check. The law in US allows the bank to go back after you for the money up to 7 years after you receive the funds. Good luck in your future. Stay strong.

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#158
In reply to #156

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

03/31/2009 3:37 PM

Oh, but all money was returned to Bank, and some of my own as well, so I owe Bank nothing, at least not to Royal Bank of Canada :-))

I would forget it, but my wife keep reminding me how I let money go from my hand :-((

Only, I would rather sleep peacefully than to think how one day Police would arrest me.

It is true that I could have paid my debts and then earn hundred times more and then return the money, and that my Indian wife cannot forgive me.......

Now, I am economist also and I developed financial system that produce installations for agricultural waste processing and electricity production (therefore opening Jobs and earning profit) and it guarantee to whoever is using it (it could be used by government, Investors, Pension funds or Banks internally, or trough Technology Dissemination Fund, TDF for short) 20% interest on money amount deposited per year, while money is multiplied 7 to 350 times in 10 years (if used trough TDF) or even over twice more if user want also be owner of installations or factories built and run them. Trough TDF such installations are granted to workers, new owner or any group of people (for instance village council in India could receive Wind Power Station and water production device for village needs) whose life can be improved by receiving it..

CR4 ADMIN: This post was edited to remove advertising outside the Commercial Space forum. Please review Section 14 of the CR4 Site FAQ about advertising.

Regards,

Marijan Pollak, IT SA/SE 1st. Class, Instructor and Team Leader

Director and owner of company OBERON d.o.o. Zagreb

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#157
In reply to #155

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

03/31/2009 3:26 PM

Canada also has an organization called FinTrac which uses one of those monster supercomputers to track suspicicious finance in Canada, and being transacted with Canadians. I believe they have a truly massive analysis system that allows them to track money laundering and terrorist financing methods. They do not have the power to arrest, so once they have sufficient evidence, they report to the RCMP. You can go to this website and report potential frauds schemes.. possibly their communications directorate can advise you. I know for sure that all transactions over 10,000$ are reported to Fintrac.

There are also other canadian government agencies that may be able to advise on scams... just go to www.canada.gc.ca and look around.

Chris

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#159
In reply to #157

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

03/31/2009 3:48 PM

Oh, I knew this probably is some sort of SCAM, but in my situation even glimmer of chance to get decent JOB is better than nothing, so I tried but I consulted with people from Bank from the start, and they told me if check pass clearance then nobody can take this money from me :-))

As we say in Croatia: >>Every schooling cost<<, and I tend to not repeat mistakes if at all humanly possible........

CR4 ADMIN: This post was edited to remove advertising outside the Commercial Space forum. Please review Section 14 of the CR4 Site FAQ about advertising.

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#61
In reply to #6

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/26/2009 11:50 AM

I will check out Fuel Cells,

In the meantime, it occured to me that with all the surface area of the exterior walls, that it could be made into a very large capacitor, and store electrical energy. The space between can be air/ultrapure water (resistance=18 Megohms) The circumference can be segmented, so individual zones can be discharged and serviced.

The interior of the space would have to be sprayed with an electrically conductive sealant.(B) The concrete on inner and outer surfaces (A & C) would have to be sprayed with an insulating sealant, and the concrete should be as non-conductive as possible. (must prevent electrical path from A to C, through the main turbines) The top and bottom would have to be sealed to complete the picture.

Lastly, it provides a level of redundant security for catastrophic failure to the system, by having a double sea-wall. (titanic anyone)

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#10

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 4:21 PM

like Hibernia...Just imagining this system built at Bull Arm and installed offshore to power the construction site and further. It would make a lot of sense, also the kind of project that would keep the skills at work when there are no platforms being constructed. Also, since oil is not renewable and will run out of projects some day, using the construction knowhow for gravity based structures in the oil industry to develop renewable energy technology would be.. poetic.

I would suspect that the major technical hurdles for the North Atlantic would be related to the wind turbines' ability to handle extreme conditions, not only wind peaks but the corrosive effect of freezing spray (= salty).

Good idea and good luck with the design, hope it works out. If the cost benefit is reasonable, I could see this becoming a joint venture for government and the offshore oil industry....why not.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 6:21 PM

Thankyou Artsmith.

You've captured my thinking exactly. My brother worked on a portion of that project, and has a large picture book that was published of the project, detailing all the construction methods of the gravity base... fascinating stuff. and a great location for it, as you have pointed out. Do you know where the concrete came from btw?

Chris

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 6:59 PM

Do you know where the concrete came from btw?

No idea, sorry. There are a few concrete suppliers here that serve construction: but perhaps they made their own. I have not been involved in any construction of this type: I did see the GBS up close as we were shooting promotional video when they moved it. Impressive to see, and the track record since is the best part.

My brother worked on the drill ship Ocean Ranger and just missed going down in the tragedy back in 82 with all hands lost. I admit it left some leery feelings about the whole business. The design work that went into developing these much safer GBS structures is deserving of our respect: without knowing the details, well, .. call it grateful awe.

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#26
In reply to #11

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 8:14 AM

You probably have this info but I thought I would send it to you anyway. NL has formed a public energy corporation NALCOR for integrated management of all types of energy resources including the Bull Arm site, hydro, oil, etc. and long term planning: in other words, putting oil revenues towards developing sustainable energy sources.

http://www.releases.gov.nl.ca/releases/2008/exec/1211n11.htm

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#29
In reply to #26

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 10:43 AM

Thank you Artsmith

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#14

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 9:42 PM

Love this thread chrisq288.

btw - what are you using to create your renderings?

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 9:57 PM

a wireframe modeller, able to output pov-ray files

http://www.stmuc.com/moray

and of course, the ever popular....

http://www.povray.org

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#17
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Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 10:08 PM

Thank you much for the links. I am going to PM you once I have had some time with the software. Thanks again.

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#103
In reply to #17

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/30/2009 2:48 PM

Any luck? maybe I can help

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#18

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 10:27 PM

It is easier to pump air than water so....

Think of a typical piston/cylinder configuration inverted. The push-rod replaced with air bladders tethered to wire rope and floating around the cylinder and through guides fixed atop your concrete cylinder. The 'piston' employs gravity as the bladders are pneumatically controlled thus forcing the water through cylinder orifices at great pressure as the bladders deflate. The pump power required would decrease tremendously. The downward motion of the piston could itself generate power as the wire rope spins the gearshafts to which they are secured during the deflation 'stroke' process.

hope that makes sense??

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#25
In reply to #18

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 8:03 AM

Oops. I have slept. Reread. And now disregard.

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#35
In reply to #25

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 12:21 PM

Sorry to burst your "bubble" TexasCharley,

The compressed air cycle is very lossy because the heat loss when compressing the air is lost energy that is hard to capture. Using water (mass) and gravity is much more efficient as you recuperate almost all the energy stored..

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#37
In reply to #18

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 12:47 PM

Actually, I was still thinking about this one when I went to sleep last night... There is some merit to the idea that you could maintain internal pressure in equilibrium to external pressure. That would reduce the load on the structure itself to resist all the external (sea) pressure. I'm not even sure that you need bladders.. so long as the structure itself is designed as a large pressure vessel, for there will be those times when you want to move the water out, and the internal air pressure will have to be higher than the sea pressure at depth.

There is some merit to the notion of segmenting the colum in a pie shape of internal walls, with some porting between segments. Also layerize the column, so that the water can be managed in 'pressure gradient' layers. Then you could have pumps appropriate to the individual pressure gradients working at each level. The pumps at the higher levels would not have to have the same pressure rating as those at the lower levels.. Or that the segmentation and layering would permit equalization of the water to atmospheric pressure before pumping.

My current idea is that the water will be admitted and pumped out of the bottom of the structure, BUT if the water in the column were 'cellular, and isolated, then pressure-equalized to atmosphere, the water could be pumped up to a higher level, without the pressure generated by the column of water that would normally have been on top if it.. if I'm making any sense.

anyway, thought provoking, and creative TexasCharley. This is a group effort, and there are no bad idea..its brainstorming.

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#19

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 10:47 PM

What if nature would fill your water storage container for you?

A wiser man than me could tell you how often the tide rises and falls. The large water tight gates used on the locks of the canals for navigation, could trap massive amounts of water for storage at the peak of high tide. It would be able to power the turbines when tide is low. In between, harness wave action to spin turbines. Either direct, or from pumped water. I remember hearing that somewhere on the coast of Alaska, is the highest rise in tidal water in the world. That rise would capture Huge amounts of water for power generation.

Yes I know there are some design issues, but that is what they told Tesla also.

It is the details are what will make or brake the ideas. Good luck.

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#43
In reply to #19

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 7:28 PM

Thank you bob_c,

I think that all energy sources should be examined, and some effort made to integrate it if possible, especially if storage is a possibility. Tidal energy is best used close to shore I think, but as a storage feature, it is only available at peak value on a periodic basis, when the tide is low. When the tide is high, the difference of potential is eliminated. There are different types of tides (diurnal and semidiurnal) and different levels for each, based on location, and lunar/solar cycles. it all gets rather complex, and if it matches energy demand, it is pure coincidence. However, for use to generate energy to pump water in my offshore scheme, then tidal is a reasonable source of energy, as over a period of a day, x amount of water can be pumped. Then onus shifts to the column's generators to offset peak demand.

I have some ideas for omnidirectional wave and tide generation that I hope might help.

Chris

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#20

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 11:02 PM

Chris-

There are a number of schemes out there that have been proposed for using wave action to do the pumping you are suggesting, for far cheaper than the required wind turbine, etc. EPRI has put together some pretty good studies regarding wave and tidal energy that detail a lot of the approaches being proposed, and they are not tied to any particular commercial interest, so their work is pretty objective. I would suggest visiting their site to review what is being done...

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/22/2009 11:25 PM

Thank you Cwarner7_11,

I'm looking into all aspects of this at the moment. and will be looking at all aspects to get a good feasible design plan and economic breakdown. I suspect that the real selling point will not be just the energy economics, but the total bundled package that will excite people, and for that I intend to extend the design scope to include living space. Also I believe that the entire system can be used as a purification/desalinization plant in addition to energy. The intent will be to provide all the essentials of life in one station. (Energy, Water, Food, Shelter, and more) Many components are already implemented elsewhere, and I think that this should be a synthesis of great ideas. (built on the shoulders of giants)

Chris.

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 3:34 AM

There is considerable merit in your concept. A couple of years ago I had submitted a similar concept to patent attorneys in Australia. They had advised me against making the simple alternatives that I had in mind available to this panel of Engineers . Their view was that the work and value thereof would be lost by too early dissemination, whereas I had wanted to harness the depth of knowledge that , I believed , could be available through CR4. ( In the process I had some not very sympathetic vulgar comments that in reality put me off ). Since then I have had my professional attention absorbed elsewhere.

In short and if you wish to further this I would consider off- line co-operation .

Good luck,

Labor Omnia Vincit

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#30
In reply to #23

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 11:05 AM

Dear Labor Omnia Vincit,

I sincerely respect your experience and position on this situation. I sympathize with your pain. My position is this. I alone cannot develop and build a project such as this. That is reality. This kind of project, for it to really come to fruition, is the work of many minds, collaborating, synthesizing, and sharing. That is what I consider to be a fundamental reality. I think when such projects as Hibernia are put together, it is impossible for it to be done by one person. It is just that the collaboration occurs after the magic signal is given by the money people.

CR4 represents to me an opportunity to present such an idea (to the world) and to collaborate on that idea, openly, voluntarily, and publicly, without the money people being the controllers of the project. I think there are other ways to finance large projects more privately, that does not make the project dependent on the whims of any one group.

I see a deep desire amongst many intelligent people to create something revolutionary, that solves fundamental energy problems, is based on practical knowledge, and is harmonious with the environment. Therefore, I think that a project such as this needs to spend some time evolving before it moves to any kind of actual planning stage. It needs the support of people smarter and more knowledgable than me to develop it. It is too big and too important for one person to own. It belongs to the world. It also belongs to those with enough vision and passion to put it together.

Any ownership of this idea, I give to the world. I trust that there are enough like minded people out there, who would contribute their ideas, that this technology can come to a more mature state, and be available to the citizens world. I have no intention of patenting it, because I believe it should be public domain. I do not need to be rich, I need to know that the world my grandchildren inherit will have broken the grip of the energy cartels, and have some hope for the future.

That is why I hope that such projects can become small communities, and independently owned.(for the construction) (and the engineering free to all) So Please, steal this idea. I think those who would steal it are also interested in developing it, and might be prompted into helping. If I live in a world where there is no like minded people, it doesn't matter anyway.

I am very interested in your help, but I'm torn, because I want to work collaboratively and publicly with others. Can you do this too?

Chris

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#38
In reply to #30

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 1:16 PM

I applaud your attitude, Chris! Exactly like mine. I am working here in Panama to promote tidal and wave energy projects (I have two concept proposals on the street). I am not at all concerned if someone tries to "steal" these concepts- I do not have the resources to pursue them alone. I AM concerned that the projects progress, because I believe they are right for the situation. If I happen to wind up benefiting from this, so much the better, but that is not why I am doing it (I might have more time to dedicate to the projects, if I could figure out a revenue stream from them!).

Earlier, I suggested you look at some of the projects for wave energy that may be a bit more economic to implement than a separate wind turbine power supply. A lot of the features you are looking for are already in development, along with some decent financial models. Send me a private message with your e-mail address and I will forward a couple of documents that might interest you.

I have, in the past, some some marine structure design, and have some knowledge of appropriate materials and corrosion issues, as well as structural considerations. I am more than willing to help in any way I can.

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#44
In reply to #38

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 7:29 PM

Excellent, I will contact you.

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#24

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 7:06 AM

Like the idea.

You can do away with the wind turbine (somtimes no wind) by placing a venturi at the bottom of the silo and allow water current allways present to perform pump out.

Keep in mind the head supply to hydro turbine shall diminish as the silo fills.

Cheers

Peter

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#31
In reply to #24

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 11:23 AM

Thank you DaS Energy,

I don't have a clear understanding of the venturi idea. Can you please clarify. I thinkt that ultimately a multi-function approach is the true solution to this (or any serious green energy matrix) that will fill the requirements of continuous and even redundant energy supply.

I'm aware of the non-linearity that would exist as the internal water volume approaches equilibrium with the external pressure. All the factors such as tide, depth (height) of the column, diameter of the column, pumping capacity, all input rate, etc, shall have to be optimally designed to work together. Technologies of wave, tide, solar electric, solar heat, wind, geothermal, ocean thermal, etc, can be looked at an evaluated for applicability. This is why it will take the input from many trained minds to develop a 'killer app', and so that the resulting applications to be configured for installations anywhere in the world.

The environmental conditions are different in the North Atlantic, from Hawaii, New Zealand, Taiwan, Japan, India, South Africa, Norway, etc. We all need energy, pure water, food, and shelter. I think we need to develop this into a basic set of hydraulic technologies, with configurable matrix of supporting wind, solar, and thermal pumping technologies. I'm not ruling anything out. Maybe we can make salt water batteries, or ultra large plate capacitors using glass as insulator made from sand in the sahara.. who knows. Anyway, I think the matrix of technologies is where success lies.

Chris

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#45
In reply to #31

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 9:47 PM

Hello,

For best description of a venturi do a Google search.

A venturi allows water to move through itself and by doing so draw in and discharge water from another source.

A venturi placed at the outside bottom of your silo would have water passing through it caused by current flow.

A pipe running into your silo and conected to the venturi would cause a water pump out of your silo.

Cheers

Peter

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#27

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 9:54 AM

An interesting idea..However why can there not be use of water flowing out of the cylinder to turn turbines as well as water flowing in to turn turbines...Corrosion(electrolytic effects) may prove problematic..An ongoing story on Toronto radio station(CBC)talks about dogs being hurt or killed while emptying their bladders on hydro poles in the core area of the city...Hydro officials indicate a high leakage rate of power(electricity) from the poles in question and are scurrying to find and fix all such weak links..Apparently,from the radio stories,this happens all over not just in Toronto..(Next time i'm near the 230,000 volt line running through my right to own via taxpayer/mortgage payer accounts piece of property i'll definitely not try to make a pretty pattern along the base of the pole)..So a great notion with corrosion(electrolyte environment of the seawater especially)being a limiting factor of substance.Turbine generator manufacturers(SIEMENS,GE and their ilk)would probably find your notion(not gained from a vacum of knowledge but the pool of accumulated knowledge from which we all dip so to speak)interesting...as do i...Marty W

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 10:41 AM

Thank you Marty,

I had some face time with an engineer friend of mine yesterday, who also likes the idea, and we were talking about 'land uses' of the concept, and I believe that there may be some viability of the idea. I can see having the egress of water used to run turbines when used in a tidal area, where the column would be filled at high tide, and drained at low tide.

For clarity, my original idea was to have this system positioned a kilometer offshore, in deeper water, and while there would be tidal effects, that would represent only a fraction of the height of the cylinder. Therefore, the considerable external pressure from the surrounding body of water would prevent drain side pumping. (I think) (Although the entire system is usable in large bodies of water, such as the Great Lakes. I know there are 2 nuclear plants near Toronto, so I'm sure OPG would be interested)

Very Interesting input on the corrosion aspect. This will be especially important to a desalinization plant. I think that the design needs to be in harmony with nature, and these issues must be understood so that they can be utilized and integrated. I'm giving you a GA

At this point, I am envisioning an underwater concrete dome and tube situation for the inlet and pump house, all under hundreds of feet of water, at the base of the column. The power cables running to shore would experience the same sort of issues that are experienced elsewhere with underwater power. The domes would be many feet thick of concrete and steel, so I don't think they would experience leakage effects. I think that hydroelectric dams are the technologies that have the most related applicability to generation issues, and the concept in general.

Chris

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#33

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 11:49 AM

Good idea.

I have just the site for you and a lot of the heavy work has already been done...

Use one of the island where nuclear tests have been performed. The island already have a big hole in the middle that probably extend below the sea level. Nobody wants to leave there anyway...

Otherwise, there might be old volcanic island that already have a large pit that could be sealed. That would provide a strong foundation and save on excavation.

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#36

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 12:34 PM

I have a whole batch of ideas that have to be sorted through. I'm just going to post them individually rather than wait. The first one is for modular construction methods, and it addresses the difficulty of doing cast-in-place concrete construction for an offshore installation. Due to the intense hydraulic pressure from the surround body of water, we can employ the use of 'arches' and keystone construction to construct the cylindrical shape. This will convert the inward pointing radial stress (pressure) into a uniform compressive hoop stress. (if I'm explaining that right) This stress will continue to tighten the seal between the vertical faces of the blocks. Gravity and perhaps some kind cementitious/ceramic joining cement can be used to seal the joints on the horizontal. Also I've keyed the stones together with grooving to assist in resisting dynamic forces that are sure to be acting. Each block would be precast, reinforced, made of tested materials, mass produced, and therefore, the cost can be amortized. these images were made in SW-07

more to come.. chris

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#39
In reply to #36

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 1:36 PM

If I had to guess--I think you will need a floor, or the sediment on the sea bed will probably be pushed into your cylinder--Then probably need a solution for the buoyancy it will have.

I had an idea when the wind turbines started going up--Keep some of them off the grid and power a system of pumping a contained liquid from a reservoir at the bottom of the Columbia Gorge to a reservoir at the top of the Goodnoe hills and extract the power from 60 hertz AC generators back at the bottom. Engineer them for efficiency at a high head pressure and reclaim the power over a longer period of time. Anything to get away from the "Highly Undispachable" power.

Have you seen this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Moses_Niagara_Power_Plant

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#41
In reply to #39

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 2:37 PM

Thank you Kilgore Trout. Yes, I agree with the necessity of a floor and the buoyancy. That is why I was calling the thing a 'gravity base', and suggesting that it might be towable..but if the system is big enough, then the buoyancy will be overcome sufficiently by gravity. I think part of the problem with scale is the fact of offshore construction, which is why I was suggesting prefab blocks.

Thank you for the link. very informative, and again, shows that we are building with proven concepts. Even better that we would not face such things as pollution and land related issues.

Chris

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#40

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 2:20 PM

I really like the idea, but can't help but wonder if the premises need a bit of work.

One of the stated premises is that it is beneficial to put this out at sea because real estate is not used. This probably is a bad trade-off. Building and operating a sea-borne platform is the most hazardous and costly in the business. The costs would be far in excess of the real estate cost benefits. Granted the availability of wind and water in a maritime location are advantageous.

It seems the greatest benefit would be he tidal action that would twice per day grant your platform free tidal generation when filling/draining the reservoir. Combining a wind plant on top of this (since the sea-borne real estate is now available) would seem to give an added benefit.

It seems to me that if you are looking to just store the wind energy, then the same concept could be built on land for far cheaper. Siting a wind farm on an abandoned oil or gas field and using the wells as your gravitic storage reservoirs could offer a the same energy on demand principle for lower cost.

Good luck and keep up the good ideas!

Cheers,

Steamer Stan

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#42
In reply to #40

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/23/2009 4:24 PM

Thank you Steamerst. Right on point. For siting offshore

PRO

No Land Cost

No Land Contamination

Availability of multiple sources of energy (gradient water pressure, wind, solar, tidal, ocean thermal, geothermal) and materials. (source of cost payback [energy and minerals]) (all minerals are dissolved in seawater)

Ability to use energy/sea pressure to purify water (RO). No pipeline to build, except maybe to export product to shore. (source of cost payback)

Generally, more ways to generate cashflow.

Creation of new living space integrated into structure (source of cost payback), including terraced organic growing space on upper structure. (image forthcoming)

Very small environmental footprint. small environmental risk

More defensible and secure from acts of terrorism than land based. (more control, and terrorists require more resources to gain access generally)

More beautiful and scenic than land based.

Independence

CON

Higher construction costs

Higher Operating costs

Possible shorter lifecycle due to salinity and pressure.

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#46
In reply to #42

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/24/2009 2:03 AM

It occurs to me that some locations are ready for your plans now. The smaller islands in the Caribbean would benefit from; locally Available electricity, locally available fresh water, protection along the shore line from some of the wave action. The offshore structures could also be used as higher cost hotel rooms, or a marina.

And besides Any time spent doing "research" in this area in the winter has got to be warmer than Canada. How's the weather?

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#48
In reply to #46

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/24/2009 11:08 AM

ah yes, the Carribean... sounds fantastic right now. its damn cold again.. there was a chinook for a week or so.. I was out in my t-shirt to the store on wednesday.. Thursday I went for a coffee with an engineer friend of mine to discuss these applications.. and I swear it dropped 20 degrees (with windchill) while we were inside, and when I came out the car wouldn't start... I almost got frostbite in 2 minutes trying to boost the car...brrr.

I agree with what you are saying, but we are just getting started.

Chris

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#166
In reply to #48

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

07/25/2009 10:53 PM

Dear Chris,

As much as time permits I continue to read the various and highly interesting answers and comments to your thought provoking concepts. In many ways your high quality designs themselves stir all of us towards finding a solution. Of course there is a huge array of new energy systems some of them supposedly " free " that are increasingly available but perhaps will vanish like many others before them.

I remain convinced that an ocean solution , including yours , can be constant and universally available along all the coasts of the world. There are variants to , for instance that proposed by JD-retired that need refining. The biggest hurdle is that of removing the water that has powered the turbine(s). It is not only the volume but the speed at which this is effected . As well whether that energy requirement can be found economically and regulalry harnessed .Obviously it can not be that which activates a piston, or series thereof. At depth there must a means of retaining /saving some of that force for the next cycle. In short it must be a combination of : water pressure on the one hand and that of air-pressure which can exhaust the spent water at a constant rate back into the ocean. Given that such exhaust pressure would have to overcome the resistance and depth ,which are both considerable , is where the problem needs to be solved.

May I suggest that whilst an approach such as you have had has been very usefull and given the chance to many to provide their own contributions that it could now be that a " next stage/phase " is to be achieved. Perhaps by you selecting/assembling a short list of all the willing contributors and, then : forming a legally well structured Research Group. As I pointed out some time ago such a Group will need an entity with which research tools and some funding to advance to the next stage. Without such a constructive move forward you could find that the very substantial time and efforts you , and others, have made and displayed may not find the follow-up that , truly , is deserving,

Best regards,

Labor Omnia Vincit

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#167
In reply to #166

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

07/26/2009 12:33 AM

Dear Guest,

Why don't you register and be part of community here?

There was good idea in what You say, but main hurdle is of course, money......

Now, in regard to idea to retain some energy from process, that would be contra productive because that much less energy would be produced. Already there would be need to spend more energy to pump water out than could be gained, and Chris has overlooked simple fact that pressure from depth would tend to be progressively smaller as inside would be filled with more and more water. Because of this, it would be necessary to keep inside empty, and if it depend on wind it may not be uniformly available. Still more to point, at stage when pumps have to pull water from the bottom, pump has to lift whole column of water up and over those walls, which is far above sea surface. Therefore first energy has to be calculated that would have to be applied.

If my suggestion that this would be desalination plant instead and energy of wind be used to pump desalinated water to some town nearby, then energy would be much less since column of water no more than 1/3 of height would need to be lifted, and some other systems could be used to transport water even without energy expenditure, by simply connecting this cylindric reservoir with series of others, much closer to the town, so water should be pumped only short distance and not on so great height.

I also suggested that only surplus energy would be stored, and that reservoir can serve as energy storage, providing hot water if necessary for that town also. If such idea is used, then another way of harvesting solar energy would be practical, at least in summer. When surface water of sea is warmed by Sun, energy produced by power stations could be used to run heat pumps that would store it in reservoir inside, and since deep water is cold, Stirling engines could be run, tapping energy stored inside using sea water as coolant. Warmed water would maybe rise to surface where it can be harvested again by heat pumps, at least partly..... Sea itself is one great reservoir of heat energy and is keeping warmth for months after summer so process could be used most of the year. Only question is how it would reflect on climate if many cities would be cooling the sea this way. It may not be critical question in period of Global Warming when we have overheated atmosphere, but since we have to deal with this problem fast, it may happen we would reverse trend and start new Ice Age.........

Regards, Marijan Pollak

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#168
In reply to #167

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

07/26/2009 1:13 AM

Dear Henrik14,

Thank you for your well intended response . Remember the" 5 M "of any successfull business (or research) :

-Men.

-Market

-Money

-Management,

-Method.

This is no different. Therefore you have to start with the first one in a disciplined way otherwise your: efforts, thoughts, actions become : ineffectual and meaningfull results are nowhere to be found !

Regards,

Labor Omnia Vincit.

FYI :(Yes, I am a registered member)

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#165
In reply to #42

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

07/24/2009 4:42 PM

Chris,

As of some many years ago, the Oil Industry in the North Sea off the United Kingdom (between UK and Norway) used a variety of techniques to construct the various Platforms used for the production units. This will have been circa 1970!!

These basically consisted of Caissons which were made from a series of Concrete rings and the height was gradually increased as rings were added and the resultant structure was gradually sank as more rings were added.

Finally the accomodation and production units were added, the whole was then floated out of the fjords where they were constructed and towed to the precise place that the interconnect was required.

So there is a technique available for your ring dam!

Unfortunately, I cannot remember , at this remove, the name of the manufacturer albeit the Prime Contractor will have been Philips Petroleum with the Norwegian Government being a contributor.

I was responsible for the comunications between land and sea.

Good Luck with your proposals.

Sleepy

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#47

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/24/2009 4:11 AM

Just a few words of encouragement, I have not read all the post in detail, though I have tried to keep track of the post. In my mind and the argument I put forward in favour of the system is, that it is not an alternative energy system, but rather an system to efficiently establish spinning reserve, I think that capital cost would be less, though I could be corrected there, and you have a number of things going for you regarding efficiency. When lowering the level of the enclosed area, you have a number of options, wind, tide, waves, and off peak generation. The bottom line being to produce spinning reserve at a cost lower than the cost to bringing on standby plant, and it will also providing pumped reserve at a cost below that which it would cost to so at a conventional hydro plant. And it is not necessary to have the generating plant out in the ocean, and if you think about a bit further and situate the plant near a river mouth, you could use fresh water. Etc I could go on and on.

Regards JD.

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#49
In reply to #47

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/24/2009 11:10 AM

Please do go on.. and flesh out these ideas a bit, so I can get a visual..(I'm a visual thinker)

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#52
In reply to #49

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/25/2009 12:27 AM

Just some rough conceptual sketches. A hydro generating plant would be situated close by a large river mouth, close by would be a large tunnel bored down out under the ocean, of a capacity to keep the plant running for some hours? At the end of the tunnel would be the pumps. These would be driven by the river discharge and natural tidal currents, I've also included a sketch of a multi directional tidal pump. The inlet to the generating plant would be from the river thus reducing the salt content. These pumps sit on a non return valve and can be removed for maintenance. Each unit would have its own tunnel and more units could be added over time. Along side the discharge tunnel would be an access tunnel to install off peak pumps, all equipment readily available for replacement and repairs.

Regards JD.

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#53
In reply to #52

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/25/2009 12:33 PM

Thank you JDretired, Great to see some other ideas and pictures.

I like the unidirectional pumps. I had some similar ideas myself. I don't have a clear visual on a lot of energy being available from the river after it leaves either the river or the generating station. I think that if it is situated close to the mouth of the river, that most of the energy has already been tapped off, and the flow is relatively low. I do agree about the water being less saline.

One thing I liked about my open water based dam idea is that it would not be restricted to 'special' locations, like the mouth of the river, and could be implemented by any shoreline country, in reasonable offshore depth. I considered this one of the design parameters of this idea. However, that does not invalidate your idea in any way. The only thing I see as a detractor to your idea is that most large rivers have a delta of sand at the mouth, and therefore does not support tunneling very well, unless the tunnel is cased. This also means that your hydro station needs to be dug/piled to the bedrock I think.

I'm still not understanding the term 'spinning reserve'.. are you speaking of an amount of water in reserve to spin the turbines? I call that generating reserve.

Chris

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#56
In reply to #53

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/25/2009 8:58 PM

Hi Chris,

By spinning reserve I mean plant held in reserve to be used to meet morning and afternoon peak loadings.(generating reserve, sorry if I got the wording wrong), As you know there are pump storage systems that take advantage of off peak times to run the main thermal plants at or near max load, thereby taking advantage of unit efficiency, there are some losses, but with a system as outlined in this post, and with input from wind and ocean that cost can be reduced even further.

I agree that one could not expect a great deal of input from the river current, but the pump bus can run for may miles with lots of pumps, with the object of cause to drain the tunnel and create a head, in the sketch I show the hydro discharging at the top of the tunnel, that is incorrect, it discharges at the bottom of the tunnel to create the necessary working head pressure.

Anyway stick with it it is looking good.

Regards JD.

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#57
In reply to #52

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/25/2009 11:50 PM

As I said, I like the idea of unidirectional turbines... in tidal applications or in wind applications. On the sides of the OHP (Offshore Hydroelectric Plant) in the image, you will see both wind sails and water paddles. For each, they are rigid when being pushed against in one direction, but fold out of the way when acted on in the other direction. It would be possible to have counterrotating systems, of sails (one above the other), but for the paddles, they will be in the water on one side, when the tide is flowing in (assuming the system is positioned in an area with tidal flow.) and paddles-up on the other side. When the tide flows out, the reverse will be true. It is based on tidal flow, and not tidal level. There would be a central weather/tide monitoring system that will control the side of the facility that will be 'sails out' and which will be 'sails in'. The same for the paddles.

All the sails (218) and paddles (436) are connected to each other with a pair of braided cables (like a gondola cable car system) to keep them equally spaced. Each sail and paddle has its own carriage, running on something like bicycle tires, and each will have a driven electrical generating system (car alternator?) Then maybe a steel wheel and track to transmit the power to pumps/storage system. The sails and paddles will have springs and dampeners, and speed governing systems.. (to be engineered) but the system should be sturdy enough to be able to handle hurricane force winds if possible.. that would really store the energy. but, in case of emergency or maintenance, the systems will have brakes too.. still, it should all be a smooth running system, and fairly quiet I think.(hope)

There are basically 3 rings. The top one is a walking/cycling path type, about 15 ft wide, and the lower 2 are 25 feet wide, and could actually accomodate traffic on the middle one. The lower one is for the paddles to run on, and is closer to the water, but the one with traffic is 60 feet above the water, and the bicycle path, 80 feet above. Access to waterborne traffic will have to occur via an elevator inside the road rings, and then to a moored dock system. (The paddles will lift up and fly over the docks)

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#59
In reply to #57

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/26/2009 1:22 AM

Another idea, based on some information from cwarner7_11 (awesome) is a Pelamis based string of cylinders that could be positioned and tethered to the perimeter of the facilty, and would convert wave energy to electricity. I will render them soon. As I understand it, the cylinders are hydraulically interconnected, and articulate at the joints, and generate electricity from the relative vertical motions.

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#79
In reply to #57

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/28/2009 4:51 PM

chrisg288,

A small nag kept coming into my mind when I drooled over your graphic renderings. This time it hit me what was worrying away at me. Your wind turbines as depicted are very susceptible to damage from moderate to heavy turbulence. You might look toward another style, not bothered by turbulence or off-optimum direction such as curved blade, horizontal bladed systems.

Here's a working system in Phoenix, Arizona designed by an engineering undergrad, as I understand it. The beauty of this wind turbine is that even when there IS not traffic but the wind is blowing - it works.

A similar design is on roof tops in Dallas, mounted such that the lower blades are about 6 feet up from the roof of a parapet encircled flat top roof. It is reported to contribute about 10% of one building's net electrical energy. Not stellar - but at least it doesn't break off blades like mast mounted turbines have done.

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#80
In reply to #79

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/28/2009 5:24 PM

Thank you Tinker65. I'm sure you are right.. and of course there is no substitute for experimentation, and practical evidence of function, reliability, and performance. I am still trying to think up all sorts of alternatives. Based on what a lot of others have said I have been looking more at the wave and tidal energies for consistent pumping capacity. The image you show is quite fascinating.. but looks like a computer generated image, due to the lay of the shadows on the underside of the supports (to my eye).. and also the apparent segmented construction method.. (not optimal use of labour or material)... regardless. I will take you word for it that it is real and functioning. I like how it looks and is reported to do. Is more information available for it?

Chris

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#81
In reply to #80

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/28/2009 6:10 PM

crisg288

Whups, I have to agree, now that you mention it it does have the look of Adobe Illustrator "improvements" to it, doesn't it. Had to go back to another thread and find the link on a previous post. (You left a comment there, too.). Anyway, here's the full page post the single picture originally came from. Thanks for grounding me out :-)

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.archinect.com/images/uploads/turbine_freeway_structure_2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.archinect.com/schoolblog/entry.php%3Fid%3D55756_0_39_0_C&h=300&w=400&amp;amp;amp;sz=89&tbnid=d4vh4jbA1tx3dM::&amp;tbnh=93&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3DHorizontal%2Baxis%2Bwind%2Bturbine&amp;amp;hl=en&usg=__i-_ldnX67NXMCviFA38iBYDr4qk=&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=1&ct=image&cd=1

Meanwhile I've been researching low head water wheel turbines. Here's a website link filled with all kinds of working independant systems. http://www.absak.com/ check out the hydro systems, just for basic information. The attached, illustrated pdf's are first rate in describing solutions for various hydro system problems. They actually have to have these areas handled because they sell them to end users in the boon docks of Alaska, where everyone carries big guns, you know?

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#82
In reply to #81

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/28/2009 6:47 PM

thank you thank you.

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#84
In reply to #79

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/28/2009 7:34 PM

it was actually this sort of thing (image) that I was thinking of as a wind carriage.. It could be stabilized by increasing the wheelbase, plus some weighting.. or having wheels captured between parallell rails, if that is the sort of instability you are referring to?.. As for sail oscillations.. maybe some spring dampening. In terms of high velocity winds, I was thinking of simply retracting the sails.. like on a sailboat.

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#86
In reply to #84

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/29/2009 12:29 AM

I'll sell you this:

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#88
In reply to #86

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/29/2009 12:39 AM

I think I would pinch my toes if that sail rotates at all... where exactly is the cockpit?

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#71
In reply to #47

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/26/2009 11:59 PM

jdretired, in keeping with your comment,

what is implied and very sophisticated about this concept of chrisg288 is the implied higher quality and reliability of wind during the off peak night time, in which to use the wind energy to pump out the well, as it were, in order to build energy potential during the daytime, during much higher electric demands that are normally extant. Smaller versions scream to be most used during peak demand. As this system reaches acceptance, larger scaled systems spanning ever wider periods of time become feasible (read fundable).

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#50

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/24/2009 2:32 PM

Next view (fisheye).. a huge construction (go big or go home), with the same dimensions as the hoover dam, but using the buttressed dam method. (As shown here, 5000 feet dia, 1200 feet high, 100 feet wide at top, 500 feet at base. each 'arch' is 20 feet thick, and has a 75 foot OD radius. 346 arches.) The city will be built atop the outer wall. The inner core performs the functions of RO water purification, and government building on top..lol I will get the terraced city done next.. (hanging gardens too) (ps. tugboat scale is much too large) If you want to see larger version of these images, just send me your email..

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#83
In reply to #50

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/28/2009 7:19 PM

In another image, I have proposed a large capacitor to be built... but as another idea, it occurs to me that one way of getting water out of the bowl of the facility, besides pumping, is evaporation with solar energy. If the structure were to maximize the absorption of solar energy, and be able to conduct that heat to the water, then it will evaporate more quickly.

Parallel surfaces, and diverging surfaces are surfaces that increase the number of reflections, and therefore the opportunity to absorb the light. If those surfaces were black, then even better. If they were black metal, or more thermally conductive than concrete, then the heat will be conducted more rapidly. (in the diagrams, the surfaces are black lines, and the rays are red lines.) (I used an old windows 3.1 program demo version called RAYTRACE)(ps.. these rays are limited to a value of 10000 in length..whatever that means?)

As I understand it, the greater the surface area conducting heat, the more rapid the thermal transfer of the energy to the water. Also, as the energy is absorbed throughout the day, and partially stored in the mass of the structure, the heat will continue to be conducted in the night. Lastly, because the surfaces are largely perpendicular to the water, any reflecting light from the wall will probably hit the water in the bowl eventually, depending on the geometry. It all increases the probability that the solar energy will be transmitted to the water, and act to evaporate it.

The lower image represents something like what I have proposed for the walls of the structure, in plan view profile.. (see previous image above for context)

Chris

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#51

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/24/2009 5:05 PM

Here is a housing unit... and then 224 of them.

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#55

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/25/2009 7:40 PM

I need help with the final stage of my buoyancy calculation. The formulas I googled aren't helping me. thanks, Chris

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#58

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/26/2009 12:06 AM

I haven't figured out where to put the golf course yet... but the back yard barbecues will be awesome.

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#60
In reply to #58

Re: Alternative Offshore Hydroelectric Plant

01/26/2009 1:45 AM

I'll have to do a proper nighttime lighting render later, as it will take a couple of days to render.. so I photoshopped part of this one (reddish light glows).. for fun.. and the lower picture gives a sense of scale. basically the top level is 150 feet above the water. (100 feet, then five stories of living space)

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