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Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 1:13 AM

So the bottom line is that if these guys in banking and finance had bothered to understand the math involved, we would not be in this mess. A very sad statement on modern life.

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-03/wp_quant

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#1

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 2:49 AM

NO, these guys knew exactly what they were doing. And they had Congress approval to do so. I know John Thain. I replaced his controller, battery charger upgrade, throttle interface I designed and built and new dual throttles for his boat. This was just a few weeks before all of what took place. He knew, they all knew!

And while were at it. Oh boy, am I opening a new thread here that don't belong?

This is an engineering place, not political!

This is engineering only site.

No Politics here. Engineering info only.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 3:08 AM

They knew, it was deliberate and a lot of people knew but their mouth were filled shut. Let us not debate on this subject and close it.

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#6
In reply to #2

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 3:27 AM

"They knew, it was deliberate and a lot of people knew"

I find this an interesting analysis. These guys are in the business to make money are they not? If they really did know and it really was deliberate, how did the make money in the crash? As far as I can tell many many very rich people lost a lot of money over the past year. Was that deliberate, or just stupid?

I think there is a certain element of truth in the article. I think a lot of people trusted the math and did not understand the mathmatical limitations of the models, and were burned.

They may not have been plain old stupid, but they were at least math stupid.

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 3:21 AM

And mathmatics has nothing to do with engineering? Finance and banking has nothing to do with engineering?

This is "The Engineer's place for news and Discussion?" The financial mess is not news?

I would suggest that your evaluation is wrong, and what did my post have to do with politics?

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#7
In reply to #4

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 3:31 AM

You are right, has nothing to do with engineering, at all.

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 4:55 AM

Huh?

Math has nothing to do with engineering? It that is what you think, you obviously have a lot to learn about engineering.

Finance has nothing to do with engineering? If that is what you think, you obviously don't live in the same world I do. Every engineering project I have ever been involved with has lived or died by finance.

Or maybe you are making some kind of joke that I am not getting.

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#11
In reply to #8

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 10:57 AM

Yes, was a joke, meaning [The economy] it has nothing to do with this site.

Math is everything, in everything, for everything. Almost nothing can be done with out Math.

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#3

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 3:10 AM

There was a analysis sent to me for the crisis by one of my friends.

For those who have found it hard to understand the current financial crisis ... the logic simplified ... i guess more clearer once you have a drink and read this !

Linda is the proprietor of a bar in Cork . In order to increase sales, she decides to allow her loyal customers - most of whom are unemployed alcoholics - to drink now but pay later. She keeps track of the drinks consumed on a ledger (thereby granting the customers loans). Word gets around and as a result increasing numbers of customers flood into Linda's bar. Taking advantage of her customers' freedom from immediate payment constraints, Linda increases her prices for wine and beer, the most-consumed beverages. Her sales volume increases massively. A young and dynamic customer service consultant at the local bank recognizes these customer debts as valuable future assets and increases Linda's borrowing limit. He sees no reason for undue concern since he has the debts of the alcoholics as collateral.

At the bank's corporate headquarters, expert bankers transform these customer assets into DRINKBONDS, ALKBONDS and PUKEBONDS. These securities are then traded on markets worldwide. No one really understands what these abbreviations mean and how the securities are guaranteed. Nevertheless, as their prices continuously climb, the securities become top-selling items. One day, although the prices are still climbing, a risk manager (subsequently of course fired due to his negativity) of the bank decides that slowly the time has come to demand payment of the debts incurred by the drinkers at Linda's bar. However they cannot pay back the debts. Linda cannot fulfil her loan obligations and claims bankruptcy. DRINKBOND and ALKBOND drop in price by 95 %. PUKEBOND performs better, stabilizing in price after dropping by 80 %. The suppliers of Linda's bar, having granted her generous payment due dates and having invested in the securities are faced with a new situation. Her wine supplier claims bankruptcy, her beer supplier is taken over by a competitor.

The bank is saved by the Government following dramatic round-the-clock consultations by leaders from the governing political parties (and vested interests). The funds required for this purpose are obtained by a tax levied on the non-drinkers

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 3:22 AM

Nicley said, I'll drink to that, and pass you one and let Congress pick up the tab.

I think you definatley deserve a GA for this.

Man , you are so on. And this folks is how out Government works in the USA.

Or is it Worldwide? A 1 World system at work..

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#9
In reply to #5

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 6:53 AM

One world one politician(s) at least in mind set.

Fight in open, drink to each other (and other things ) in private

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#10
In reply to #3

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 10:06 AM

That is a GA, but it left out the most important point.

Linda didn't initially extend credit to the deadbeats that populated the neighborhood. They had to beg for money and hang out on street corners drinking Ripple out of bottles.

Then it was decided by the most virtuous among us that it wasn't fair that some should be able to drink in a warm, friendly bar while others were out on the street, and Linda was "encouraged", via threats to cancel her liquor license, to extend credit to those whom she had previously deemed to be non-creditworthy.

Now you have the beginning of the story...

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#14
In reply to #10

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 12:40 PM

Good follow up emc, ga

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#15
In reply to #10

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 12:54 PM

I'm afraid I have to disagree with your characterization of Linda's patrons as "deadbeats".

Many of her customers had the means to pay off their bar tab over time, and planned accordingly for doing so. However some lost their income because the mill down the street closed unexpectedly. Others supporting the mill lost their jobs or had their hours cut back. Still others were hurt in an accident down at the shipyard and because their medical coverage had been reduced,their savings were drained away.

I know some of Linda's patrons pretty well. They're good folks, caught up in bad circumstances. They by no means went on a free drinking spree.

I dare say that most of us wouldn't be able to pay Linda either in the same circumstances.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 1:24 PM

You're pushing the analogy too hard.

Certainly some of the cases are just as you say. But if that's all it was, there would be no crisis - that's just life.

But the reality is that the Community Reinvestment Act encouraged - in perfect analogy with my last post - banks to lend to those who would not qualify under traditional circumstances: 20% down payment, the mortgage payment less than 25% of take-home pay. (I may not have those numbers quite right - the point is that they were numbers that worked to ensure safe loans).

Our most virtuous president ever, Mr. James Earl Carter, decided that wasn't fair and the CRA pushed banks to make loans to riskier borrowers. You could get a loan with 10% down, and pay private mortgage insurance (PMI) until you had paid off enough, or the house had appreciated enough to where you had a 20% equity in your home, and then the PMI came off.

Okay, but after they exhausted all of those incrementally riskier loans, they were still under the gun to reach out still further. So you started to see even lower down payments, or no money down loans, but you still had to be able to make the payments.

When that sector was exhausted, they were still under the gun, because there were still unfortunates who didn't own their own homes. But these people couldn't make the payments. So the next thing was interest-only loans, with balloons at some point off in the future, by which the time the house was supposed to have appreciated enough that they could refinance. Or ARMS, adjustable rate mortgages, with artificially low teaser rates for awhile, before reality set in. And hope for the future that your income would rise, or the home value would rise and allow you to refinance on better terms.

By the end, you had loans based on "stated income" - the loan applier would simply state his income (on advice of the financial person who knew what the income minimum had to be in order to get the loan). No cross check.

And all of this financial chicanery was triggered by that paragon of virtue, James Earl Carter, and his successor in virtue, William Jefferson Clinton, who jump-started the CRA in 1995. Not to pick on particular administrations, but the point is this wasn't started by corrupt or greedy bankers. It was a top-down affair - starting from the very top. Once you had that initial push, then of course the old-fashioned type of staid respectable bankers were pushed aside by the used car salesman types, and the rest is history.

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 2:00 PM

You are in large part correct on the motivations for lenders to make the loans.

However none of that addresses the character of the persons taking out the loans. Which was (and still is) the central point of my objection to your use of the word "deadbeat".

Exceedingly few were standing penniless on a corner and were suddenly struck out of thin air with the notion that they'd amble straight into the nearest bank and purchase a house they had not the remotest idea how they could pay for nor any real intention of ever doing so.

Rather the large majority thought for whatever reason -- be it truth, self-delusion, ignorance of the terms, a pressured loan officer convincing them, etc. -- that they would in fact be able to make the payments.

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 2:14 PM

And I meant to add that I wish to extend to the CR4 community an apology for letting my part of this converstation veer admittedly much too far away from any recognizable engineering aspect.

I recognize this is absoutely not the proper forum for such a debate and I'll try not to let it happen again.

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#19
In reply to #17

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 10:52 PM

Exactly, and this is one more example of how not being able to do the math's ended up causing this disaster.

I am an engineer and I make a nice living, but I lived in a house for 20 years that I paid $70,000 for while my peers were buying bigger and bigger homes for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Could I have managed a $200,000 loan? Yeah probably. Did I want to take on that obligation? I did the math and decided that with 5 kids to pay for college the answer is no. So we lived in a house that did not keep up with the joneses, but did indeed meet our needs very nicely.

Now I have zero debt, I pay my kids college cash, and I live in a very very nice house... I did the math.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/11/2009 11:06 AM

Never underestimate the power of greed. Some of the patrons of the Linda's bar took their drinks down the street & sold them for 2x what they paid (?). Took the money paid for the 1st drink & ordered several more, drank one, sold the rest [repeat, repeat]..... Linda even raised their credit limits, after being paid for the 1st drinks, knowing exactly what the patrons were doing. Linda became more & more comfortable as the drinks flowed, [sold a few to some underage kids too], hey there was some money coming in, what could go wrong? Everyone from the top to the bottom should have realized the basic flaw in what was { & still is } a huge ponzi scheme....

Now there's going to be the insult added to the injury as all the big boys [Linda's bankers] get paid back [+ performance bonus] & the children of the patrons down the street being pursued by Linda's bankers for past due! even people who weren't drinking, or like Steve who had his drink paid his money & went home, are going to pay.

As usual emc c is busy pointing out the democrat's flaws conveniently forgetting the republican propensity for deregulation.... all politicans of both parties were there to feast on the largess. While the agenda's of the parties may be different, the results are the same, the good ole boys get paid & the rest of us foot the bill...

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/11/2009 1:08 PM

It was Fannie Mae buying up the bad loans, packaging them into investment instruments, and flooding the markets with this worthless paper that facilitated the crisis. Banks were not loaning their own money on these bad loans - they knew better.

I am no fan of the modern Republican Party (post 1988), but it was the Bush Administration that tried to rein in Fannie Mae, and it was Democrats - Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA), who said no way in hell were evil Republicans going to restrict the access of the less fortunate to the American Dream of their own home.

You can't blame this one on Republicans.

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/11/2009 1:33 PM

Garthh make many valid points, emc c it was not just one party, EVERYONE in the government was involved in mandating the banks lend money to anyone breathing.

Well that is a little exaggerated, but they were lending money to people the banks KNEW didn't have the money to pay it back. The problem is they went way over board. They knew they would be getting some of these properties back. When they realized how many (TOXIC) loans were being out out there, they started bundling them and selling them with wall streets blessings and helped the banks dump as many as they could to unsuspecting investors worldwide just how many (TOXIC) loans there really were. And all with Congress (AS A WHOLE) at the Helm telling the banks to do exactly what they did. But there is one difference, WALL STREET knew what was going to happen and tried to spread out the what was to be major losses. I think that they had no idea just how many bad loans were really given to people that couldn't handle the repayments. Especially with the LOW APR's and fancy numbers that were told. I also have to blame the REALTORS and appraisers. All this talk about buy low, do a little work jack up price $50,000.00 and sold. That continued to jack up an inflated cost of purchasing a home that was easily 30% higher than it should have been to start with. HGTV is also a contributing factor to housing prices.

So here we are today. And I point to Congress and hold them accountable.

I have a pdf file that has some real disturbing info, and all I have checked out is factual, and confirmed by the IRS. It's a huge PDF file. If anyone wants a copy, Let me know.

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#12

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 12:03 PM

Great analogy SB, I give you another GA.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Math and the financial mess

03/10/2009 12:39 PM

Ditto

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