Help with China

Hello,

I had an experience which has some similarities. I had 3 injection molds built in Donguan Shenzhen China. There were the normal teething pains with the molds being tweaked in for longer than expected. My customer asked and received a quote to mold the first run of parts at the moldshop. Things got delayed and instead of a Feb delivery we were now on April 28.

The customer demanded that parts be shipped and was warned that "Golden Week " was starting May 1st. Nothing much moves except Chinese people visiting home during that week. We did not heed their warning and asked for a quote from FEDEX and UPS and an independent shipper. UPS won with a $4,300 next day air bid. About $3k less than FEDEX. The nightmare begins. Parts were picked up on April 28by UPS China and sat for almost a week. They were delivered on May 9. The bill was $9,400.

UPS Usa demanded their payment as they only took 1 day after it arrived in the States. China UPS demanded their full payment. UPS China and UPS America are 2 different companies and acted like enemies.

My stance was that I would pay what was fair as they quoted a 3 day delivery and it took 10. UPS China threatened to blacklist the molder etc and would not concede to a lesser payment, UPS is the molders lifeline and UPS knows it.

So UPS US decided to be buttheads also and threatened to blacklist my customer who's lifeline happens to be UPS. It took 6 month with a final resolution of accepting the originally quoted price. I lost a good customer here. I lost a good moldshop in China and it boils down to misunderstanding the culture. When they said don't ship during a holiday week my customer pushed and the Chinese Molder tried to help against their better judgement. They actually caused the customer to reach the frantic stage originally but that argument was lost on them.(It would cost to acknowledge pissing of the American)

The lesson. Stay an top of the vendor with daily communication. Listen to what he tells you. If your are pushy he will bend but you will pay. It does not cost much to fly to Shenzhen and you can be in HongKong from San Francisco in 14 hours. Travel to Shenzhen or your town is 80 -90 kilometers and there are great ways to get there. Mind the extended lunches and extra early breakfasts foisted on you when things are not ready for you to see. Act like a butthead and and they will deal with you calmly but you will get your come-uppance. They will do everything in their power to service your needs but if the price is too good to be true you are fooling yourself in thinking you have one up on the vendor. Pay a little more and you can get excellent service. Good Luck

im from Chinese origin. we be professional and respetcable, but some are thiefs, like some pepole from ohter countrys. we be same. you buy from thief, sorry. you buy from honest pepole, good luck!!! same.

Thanks Guys, I appreciate that input for sure!...

Anyone else, feel free to comment.. This is great so far..

Donald

Hi Donald,

Well, you learned the 'ugly side' of buying blind. I don't intentionally 'diss' on-line companies who help folks 'source', but (it's been said before), you can never, ever assume the folks you are dealing with are capable or honest. Many are, and it hurts their (our) reputation, but many aren't.

REMEMBER, everything (especially here) is negotiable. If you don't like the 50% down, say you'll pay 30%. If you don't want to pay the full balance before shipment, negotiate a TT (LC) that pays when the product is released by the trading company to the freight forwarder.

Also, as it is said before, try always to work with someone who can actually represent you here. If you have no 'local' eyes, ears, and voice, you can easily be left out 'in the cold' ... and, if you are, what can you do? Almost nothing, except regret the expense for getting nothing.

PROBABLY, in this case, the worst you will suffer is delay (you'll get your products eventually), BUT, also, there is no guarantee the products will be received by you in good condition (packaging), or that you will receive what you expect.

Frankly, I hate this situation for you, not just because of your case, but because it gives a black-eye to others who truly do an honest business.

Yes, everyone world-wide is feeling the crunch of the economy, and even we have been forced in some cases to actually pay in advance for materials, but being local we DO have our options to get things done.

Being here, living here, I am truly sorry for what has happened.

Kind regards ...

Appreciate the nice words, but i just want my product, or all my money back.

Donald

GA's to 2Tinker, Langyaw and Dcad. Nice to see balanced comments about a place in which it is very difficult to understand the way business is done.

???how you give GA if your Guest???

This is nothing less than a case of fraud.

Don't you know by now that the words 'fraud' and 'China' are inextricably linked?

You ask that no-one reminds you of that fact AFTER you forgot it?

And how is that you couldn't find a US maker of LED lighting?

Some very strange goings-on.

Guest,

I said: And please, don't say, you should have bought American, ha!, and where might the LED Lighted Palm Tree Factory be, this side of the world?? :o)

If Guest can find me one, I will buy there...

I see from your website http://www.softneon.net that you specialise in LED lights yourself .....

And if I understand your phrase "and where might the LED Lighted Palm Tree Factory be, this side of the world??".....

all you then need is a source of palm tress from anywhere except China .......

Did you not think of Hawaii, the US Virgin Islands, or California?

I found you these in CA ... http://www.treetopia.com/Lighted-Palm-Trees-s/25.htm

OK, it doesn't say they are lighted by LED's but at $150 you could strip out their lighting and fit your own LED lighting.

And these http://www.palmeradesign.com/?gclid=CNP_r6CPtpkCFUU_3godLViA6Q are in Holland (much more friendly than China) and they can provide a genuine tree that doesn't need maintenance.

This is a really good Blog and covers areas that I have mentioned in other blogs and upset some Chinese CR4 members at the same time, because they never believe anything bad about Chinese manufacturing, but its ALL true........be warned.

In 10 or 20 years, things will be much better I am sure, its like the Wild West in 1880 there......I kid not!!

Deal with China at your own peril........the Westerner ALWAYS comes off second best because they NEVER think like us and we (generally speaking) never learn to think like them......

If a Chinese manufacturer changed to thinking and working like a western company, he would be so busy and sucessful with exports..........suddenly!

Well said Andy Germany.

The subject of Chinese fraud has been mentioned on here many times but still there are people who either refuse to believe it or who believe they will be the one to 'get a good deal in China".

It's just not going to happen.

You appear to understand the situation well, others do not. You could post some of your experiences here as well please...

To anyone else who is interested:-

Sadly, many more people and companies will make these sorts of mistakes when dealing with Chinese companies........millions of $$$$$ will be lost........and we will still have Chinese spies coming online here and saying that it is simply not true......if any of the other people reading this don't believe me, just go and look at any posts from CR4 member cnpower, who appears to work exclusively for the Chinese Government in trying to cover up such embarassments.......and argues with myself and others, in apalling English, with apalling grammar & spelling (still better than my Cantonese I will admit!)

He and I have been in clinches many times......though lately he has been quiet.....maybe the masters have seen his brash manner as just making trouble......and have reeled him in for a period.....hopefully......!! He was making even more problems for Chinese firms than he was fixing.......

The only way to treat Chinese products is to look carefully at what they have produced, examine every detail, including testing for lead in paint on children's toys for example, get a Chinese lawyer to make a water tight contract (every detail of construction fixed, down to the tiniest screw or transistor/Chip type and manufacturer) for you and then you "MIGHT" be OK........but be prepared for the worst.....deal in small amounts and test the product again on a regular basis.....

As I mentioned before, in 10 or 20 years it will be far better.....just today is really bad.

Hey Andy, I totally agree, how about you and I set up a small factory in China, and force these Hard Headed, Rude, lying people to produce quality goods,the way Germany, and Japan, and South Korea, (and many other countries)do, with customer service the way Mr. Sam Walton USED to force his people to give!

The only problem, I think the Communist Chinese Government forces foreign business, (even like Wal-Mart), to take on 50% Local Chinese partners, and that creates a scenario where your toothpaste, and Babies Milk could, get poisoned with Melamine

Here is another link to the larger picture of Supply Chain problems with China

Truthfully, I have had a LOT of problems with China, and I could write a damn book, and frankly, I am sick and tired of the deluge of tremendously friendly sales people on chat programs, that torment the hell out of me for orders, then when I give them a very nice order, they go and screw it all up, then refuse your phone calls, and make some LAME proposition like, "you must make new odor, and we will pay haf, and you pay haf, and they Never even apoligize for the misery and the loss of money, reputation, and future business you are losing by them screwing up your first order, which was already paid for, IN FULL!

Also, this is a small thing, but a huge pisser offer... WHY, WHY, do Chinese people, when asked a specific question, make a statement, rather than answering my damn question???????

Someone told me that in Chinese Culture, they are SO Proud, (of what?), that you mustn't correct them, and tell them they are wrong??

If that's true, then how in the hell can you ever get a project done correctly?

This post is NOT to disrespect all Chinese people, because I certainly Do have many

Chinese people that I respect, and that in spite of their traditions, have managed to

raise their heads out of the masses of humanity going along with the "status quo",

and say to themselves, I CHOOSE to do the right thing, and treat others the way I

want to be treated.. These people are to be commended, and when the rest of the

Chinese people act like that, then, and only then, will they begin to gain respect from the rest of the world..

Donald

Everything you wrote I know is completely true, sadly.....

Although I have had some great Chinese friends in the past and almost married the sister of one of them.......and was also very interested in getting to know a Chinese/English lady (5'10" - very tall for a Chines lady in 1966, a completely beautiful chinese lady otherwise and piecing blue eyes.......WOW!!), but had no luck.....I got too tongue tied in her presence at 19 years old - she was 23.......sadly!! She worked for BOAC.....

But that was not business and in those days, the ones I knew were not from China itself, but lived in Hong Kong and or Singapore.......its the ones who were "really" communists for years that are the problem.....cut throat.

Chinese/English lady (5'10" - very tall for a Chines lady in 1966, a completely beautiful chinese lady otherwise and piecing blue eyes.......WOW!!), but had no luck.....I got too tongue tied in her presence at 19 years old - she was 23.......sadly!!

Andy, you sound like me, a sucker for the charming ladies... shhhhhhhh don't tell our wives or we will be in the doghouse.. haha

Donald

That was well before my first marriage......I still never talk about it, nor the time when an Ellice Island chief wanted me to marry his daughter and take over as the Islands next Chief when he died......I am not kidding!!!! It was a close call on my diplomatic side to get out of the contract without upsetting anyone.......!!!!

This is even more worrying to realise you have had previous dealings with China and been burned before.

I feel sorry for you. We were cheated by the Chinese even after working through an American representative supervising IN China. I took all care and pain to transact through the bank including a test certificate. But the unscrupulous Chinese shipped S**t instead what should be and cleverly manipulated test parameters/values which were useless. I had vowed that I will never ever deal with China again in my life.

My best wishes to you in getting your money and if you can get 10% of what you had paid, thank all the stars and moons. Practically it is gone! Mentally book that in your loss and profit account!

Bye

Best of luck. I have got burned once. We open LC in bank and they send paper against LC. Money released what we got was a toy of the equipments and not the real equipment and I have burn of that till to-day.

I am happy to pay a dollar more but prefer to by first USA then Europe, Japan, Taiwan, India and Australia

Will not buy from China even if they provide the product cent for dollar. The product what you spec will always be different than that of one needs.

I suggest you should take help of Trade Attache in U.S consulate in China under copy to Trade Commissioner of China in U.S. It is clear case of cheating.You paid money and you did not get the goods for which you paid money.Also you should send a legal notice to the company and tell them dispatch the good immediately or face the consequences.

Suresh Sharma.

Your message is well meant but you should know that foreign companies NEVER win litigation in China because all the court decisions in China are controlled by the state.

The best thing to do is write it off to experience and never deal with China again.

Well Guest, you mean to say that Law is realy blind in China and culprits can get away even if they are caught red handed?. I think it is not a Banana State, nothing like trying to pressurising the vendor to bring him to terms.Moreover the vendor is Ltd company it has to do business within legal limits.

Suresh.Sharma.

this is what I said in post No. 2 (above).

To anyone wanting to deal with China, you should think long and hard before doing so.

I have no idea of what percentage of companies are truly honest (from and for a western point of view), its probably at least 50% if not more. The trouble is that a small percentage of bad eggs make the whole country dangerous for anyone from outside of China.

This bad dealing is supported to a great degree by the state as they haven't the intelligence to understand that over the long term, they are killing there international business, bit by bit.......the value of their exports is so huge, the "few" problem look like a pimple (zit?) on an Elephants Backside, look to them to be too small to worry about!!!

As I mentioned earlier, once they find that out and seek to reverse that, it will be at least 2020 if not 2030.......and China will be on a downward spiral financially and then become very dangerous as they try and do what Hitler did, which was to take over other countries for their wealth......be warned......

Lebensraum? Piffle!!! he needed the finance and had a special army group just formed to enter the banks, museums etc of every country taken over and cart away everything of value.......Russia did it in return as did the UK, France & USA, but there was not much left to take back by the end of WW2.....

Hi Andy,

My presumptions are exactly same like yours.The way the China is amassing Dollars even selling goods below the cost prices, it is certain that their ulterior motives are to acquire massive arms build up. I read recently in news papers that China is now a days is cornering world resources like iron mines, oil wells, mining of metals etc. all over the world.

Hope no other Hitler is born again.

Suresh.Sharma.

When dealing with Overseas,you must visit the manufacturer, never send deposit to someone you HAVE NOT MET! We always visit the factory first,it is a wise investment, make sure they exist.Anyone can make claims over the net.We deal with Korea,Japan,and sometimes China. China still has to many bogus companies and they really do not deal with the problem in the manner in which they should. Chalk this one up as a learning expierence and do not give up. Good Luck.

Your story sounds suspiciously like someone, factory or a customs person, is waiting for a "gratuity" payment for services rendered. Have you contacted a Chinese embassy, such as in NY, to ask for assistance to your problem? How much would it cost to have the offending logos painted over, or filed off? If you get no assistance there, I'd contact the Chinese Embassy http://china.visahq.com/ as a start. Be prepared to document your payment and agreement with the company, and any info re the "holding" of your merchandise.

Thank you for that...

That is what we thought initially, but it appears to have gone further than that.

This factory is now offering to absorb 50% of the cost of new LED Lighting Palm trees, and we pay the other 50%, but I am refusing, as it pisses me off that they are doing this to me.

I also get the feeling that more is wrong, than what they say..

We will most definitely be more careful in the future..

donald

Good luck in your endeavors with the LED palm trees. It reminds me of the ANUS computers for Nigeria storeys. For a good laugh, do a search of ANUS computers. There is an entire site set up just to bait the Nigerian scammers.

Hey, that give me a GREAT IDEA!!

There are enough faithful, Honest, hard working people on CR4, that we could do some of this reverse scam, on some of these Crooked Chinese a-holes..

Maybe it will take another thread dedicated to all of your ideas, but I Know we can pull it off..

For all of us that have ever been scammed, in our life, we can consider it pay-back time..

I would LOVE to hear from all of you guys, as to HOW we could pay back some of these idiots, that are just making our business even harder, than our own government is now doing...

Donald

"US distributer seeking manufacturing firm to supply LED palm trees. Must be in sizes from 15" to 72" at 12 " intervals. Please send samples of each size to above address."

Although this might be unfair to the legitimate businesses out there, it might catch some "fish".

I order from China all he time and never have a problem. I suggest if the Company is a member of the ALIBABA TRUSTED MEMBER group you report the problem to Ailbaba and they will help you.

http://www.alibaba.com/trade/help/helpcenter

I thought you were pulling my leg. Could they have thought up a better name than that? Does anyone else remember Alibaba and the forty thieves?

I won stock in that company also. It is cheap now but in a few years it will dominate the worlds trading venue I belive.

Alibaba.com

Here is a link to get a trade dispute statement. Fill it out and send it in !

http://www.alibaba.com/trade/help/faq/2_7_3_2

that ain't going to happen,that form you fill out will be less valuable than toilet paper,nothing personal but that form won't even get lost in the maze of paperwork,it will never see the light of day! As many people have written next time move with great caution and visit the supplier. and never,ever send a deposit. Have a fruitful Day!

Well I emailed the Alibaba network about this and they are very determined that all of their members follwo the rules. They will makes sure this problem is solved.

You can give up if you want but these people are trying to do things right and deal with problems as they arise. One person told me that some of the Business Owners still don't understand copyright laws of the USA .

Well I tried to help.

you did try and help,nothing wrong with your advise other than,the paper will never see the light of day.there are toooooo many abuses by overseas suppliers it would take your lifetime,my lifetime, and your 5 boys lifetime to remedy. The best course of action is much caution and then much more caution. Enjoy the kids, they grow up to fast and then you are attending college and high school graduations,boy they are getting old!

Hey Dad, with 5 boys...

we also have 5 boys, plus another one, plus two girls.. Our baby is 26 now.. ha

Hey, you are right on about Alibaba..

Even though their namesake might have been a thief, and even though some Chinese may still be thieves, this search engine has always done right by me.

They have kicked people off their site, when problems became apparent.

I think this current problem came from not really knowing the company I was dealing with, as I have gotten great product, and great service from many other Chinese companies.

Actually, the only reason I began dealing with China, was because all of my USA suppliers were buying my products in China, and then charging me way too much.

So, I decided to eliminate the middle men.

This trading with China is definitely an experience not for the lighthearted, or thin skinned, because our time of day is different, or culture is different, and definitely our morals are different..

I mean, think about it, most of us were raised in Christian, or Jewish homes, where our parents tried to teach us the Golden Rule, Do unto others, as You would have them do unto you.

In China, most were raised with the communists ruling their lives, and if you had girl babies, they were subject to being killed, shortly after birth.

Also, people were kept So poor, that now, when the money begins to come in, their rule is, 'He who has the money, RULES...

Anyway, this has been a great discussion, and I really do appreciate all the input..

I LOVE this site, and appreciate the moderators tolerance, when topics get a little crazy, and offbeat..

sincerely,

Donald

Well if you join Alibaba and become a member then use their web site to transfer payments they will get your money back from the company if you don't get what you ordered. Thats what I like about it.

Well we only have 1 girl. I got started late having kids. My oldest is 17 and youngest is 5, the little girl.

Yeah, I can understand what the Chinesse are dealing with Business owners too busy trying to run the business and needing people trained who understand international laws like copy rights. By frankly they copy right everything today even sayings like "Happy Birthday" , someone actually owns that and when it is said on National TV or Radio they get paid.

Strange world. lol

You are most probably right, trading in the far east with the biggest country is a lot like the lottery, but surely filling a form out does not cost much?

Nothing to lose?

News flash. When the south Florida building boom was in full swing a few years ago there was not enough production available for the drywall needed. China stepped up to the plate and provided the needed products.

Now we have discovered entire housing communities that were built with sulphur infested drywall. The test for the drywall consists of removing an electrical device from the wall, and looking for copper that has turned black. Now think about the copper used in today's buildings. Appliances, wiring, air conditioning evaporators, and perhaps people's lungs are now suffering from the sulphur.

The drywall has no specific markings, and looks just like the US drywall. Even the invoices from your building supplier only read 5/8" drywall. no way to tell how far reaching this will go.

I know of a contractor that built a 32 story condominium on Miami Beach that appears to have 2/3 of the building constructed with Chinese drywall. His insurance may not cover the costs of replacement.

The state of Florida does not even know the extent the dangers are yet.

Read about the problems in the Wall street Journal. I have extensive dealings in Korea,India,some Japan. I do not like the thought I have,but be careful when dealing in China BEWARE, BEWARE. They play by totaly different set of rules, until they realize that they can't operate like they do, the few that are straight will be hurt. I have problems in Korea at times,some different scenarios, my wife is Korean,we have Korean working for us,we have family and friends that are tied to the Korean communities. The Korean govt. abides by International Law,the Chinese will stonewall you and say they are following the Law,BS. China has potential but until they come to realize they have to be accountable like the rest of the world China,it aint happening in my world.

I gave you a GA for honesty.....

My house (built in 2006) is full of it. Now I know why my ac coils have corroded away (4 times upstairs, 3 times downstairs). Mine says, "Made in China" in 3" high letters. If your house was built anytime after 2001, but especially late 2005 onwards, go in your attic and check. The factory was using the typical drug-dealers trick (and now, the typical Chinese trick) of adulterating good product with trash. In this case, they were mixing ashes from coal-burning power plants with gypsum.

I told my builder a couple of weeks ago, and he came out to the house with the supplier. They both looked at it and agreed that it was the contaminated Chinese drywall. The supplier said it was in litigation, so all he could do is give me his lawyer's number, while the builder said he would get back in touch with us. We're still waiting. Meanwhile, we have another contractor giving us an estimate just so we can see how far this is going to set us back if we have to pay for it ourselves. Our insurance company says it's not covered. We've also talked to a couple of lawyers, but they want expenses paid, win or lose, and 40% if they win. Keep in mind, settlements from lawsuits are taxable as income in the US.

I heard over the weekend that the total of drywall and ceiling tiles was finally disclosed. Now I am concerned that there may be ceiling tiles also contaminated. Good luck in your future dealings with the lawyers. Document all of your out of pocket expenses. If you can. invest in something to monitor the amount of sulphur in your home. The more you circulate the same air in your house, the more you will be spreading out the sulphur fumes. If you can, try to cover the drywall where ever you can. You mentioned the ability to see it in the attic. Take pictures of it, and then paint it, or have it painted for you. You can remove the wall outlets one at a time, and paint the exposed areas of the drywall. You did not list your location, but if you monitor the state of Florida website (www.myflorida.com) for actions being taken on a legal level. The lawyers are already taking out adds to get people to start class action lawsuits. If the Governor gets his way, there will be federal assistance for the repairs. Good luck, and stay safe.

I heard that Florida's Lt. Governor's house is full of the stuff. Paint will not help; hydrogen sulfide can penetrate it. All the drywall has to be removed and replaced with non-contaminated drywall (or possibly wood paneling - I'm going to see if it's cheaper).

Wouldn't the paint seal the drywall, and lower the results? You and your family are going to be living in the house until the replacement drywall is installed. I realize that the paint will not solve the problem. But until then it should be better.

Thanks for the suggestion, but the interior is painted. There's only a few areas where the back of the drywall is accessible. I'm going to get this done very quickly, probably June.

Again good luck with the lawyers.

What a bag of shit!!!!

As has been said/posted many many times on CR4, you have to get out of bed really really early to beat these shit awfull Chinese companies, that probably comprise less than 10% of the total......but how can one sort the crap from the good ones - impossible.

The only answer is for small companies tgo not deal with them until some sort of legal safety net is available......

How sad to find out your house needs all the drywalling replaced.......anyone buying a house in the USA should ensure that he is adequately insured before purchasing. (Insured is maybe not the correct word.....but CYA is what I mean!!)