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Supersonic Air Flow?

03/31/2009 9:17 AM

Dear all

I like to know how will air flow in a pipe that is attached to a suction device .Will the air flow exceed sound speed without compression toward a vacuum zone?

Will the air flow be continous?

I assume it depends on the ratio between the diameter and the pipe's area,and on some minimum diameter of the pipe.

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#1

Re: Supersonic Air Flow?

03/31/2009 10:23 AM

I wouldn't think so as it will only be pushed by 1 bar.
I would think a positive pressure (say a high pressure pump or an explosion) could make it exceed the speed of sound.
Del

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#5
In reply to #1

Re: Supersonic Air Flow?

03/31/2009 11:00 PM

There was such a device in university.

It was dismantled, but as I remember, had a 75Hp motor, canisters and a venturi.

MACH speeds were not produced for a long period, only a a pew seconds.

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#2

Re: Supersonic Air Flow?

03/31/2009 10:35 AM

I'm trying (way out of my field here) to imagine the backpressure generated by a sonic boom within a restricted field.

Would you get standing pressure waves as the pressure went up approaching?

Surely someone with a better background in long-rifles than I might know.

But that is completely off-topic (where I live!)

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#3

Re: Supersonic Air Flow?

03/31/2009 11:41 AM

Depends on the velocity of reference, and of course, also depends on the reference temperature. I used to make such calculations many years ago regarding catastrophic impact assessment with rupture of pressure relieve valves.

If the reference velocity is just right then the frictional dissipation of energy that heats up the gases at some point begin to accelerate the gas and thereby causing further heating of the gas, and anyway you get the picture. The final form of the flow depends on the starting conditions and yes you are correct the pipe dimensions also impacts the results but that is factored in through the reference velocity; however, because of the contribution of the frictional dissipative heating, the roughness of the pipe wall is quite critical in these calculations.

I would think that a good reference point to start any computational research would be the specification of the maximum load of the pressure relieve valve before rupture.

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#4

Re: Supersonic Air Flow?

03/31/2009 1:20 PM

In order to induce flow, a pressure difference must exist (you are supplying with vacuum zone). As pressure drops, density drops and "speed of sound" increases. It may be a curious property of air that you cannot suck it fast enough to overcome the increasing speed of sound caused by the pressure and density drop induced by the very sucking you generate in the first place. Just a random thought - I have no data or calculations to support one way or the other.

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#6

Re: Supersonic Air Flow?

04/01/2009 12:28 AM

You can have a "blow-down" supersonic tunnel, but not a "suck-down". I suppose it could work very briefly, but the pressure equalization would occur too quickly for useful data to be taken.

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#7

Re: Supersonic Air Flow?

04/01/2009 6:47 AM

Hi All:

If the vacuum is great enough to cause the flow to go sonic would not the pipe choke the flow of air and limit it to the speed of sound just like a nozzle?

GOD'S BLESSINGS

Bill

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#8

Re: Supersonic Air Flow?

04/01/2009 9:00 AM

There are some great references to super/hyper sonic wind tunnels on wikipedia. You might want to especially look into Ludwieg tube. The citation on Wiki should answer your questions.

Variations of these tunnels have been used at NASA Langley Research Center for many years.

Hooker

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#9

Re: Supersonic Air Flow?

04/01/2009 4:17 PM

The flow of compressed air normally becomes "choked" limited by the speed of sound at a pressure ratio P2abs ÷ P1abs = .53 This is normally achieved with compressed air above 13 psig discharging to atmosphere through an orifice.

Theoretically then a vacuum generator, pump or venturi, could draw down the pressure below 7 psia (14.7 psia - approx 8 psia vacuum or more) would create choked flow at an orifice in the plumbing between atmospheric pressure, 14.7 psia and the generator. Without a flow limiting orifice or some flow restriction in the pipe from the source the vacuum flow required would be very large to draw the pressure down below the critical ratio, .53.

Not to quibble, the choked flow is at sonic velocity. It does not go supersonic without being further accelerated. In compressed air this may be achieved in the diffuser section of a venturi. Again compressed air in Denver, CO at 5,280 foot elevation and 12.2 psia responds to the same critical ratio as air at sea level.

Then to go Supersonic from atmospheric pressure toward a vacuum generator a venturi that would limit the flow in the throat to sonic velocity and the flow could go supersonic in a diffuser. This should be sustainable as long as the vacuum generator is capable of vacating enough flow to keep the pressure ratio critical with a continuous absolute pressure drop of 8 psia or more. With most orifices when the flow becomes choked, sonic, the flow rate will not change even if the vacuum goes to nearly prefect (zero psia). With a venturi and the encouragement of Supersonic velocity in the diffuser the flow in the throat may become "Unchoked" and increase slightly.

If this is not a perfect answer it is good enough for the girls I go with.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Supersonic Air Flow?

04/01/2009 7:22 PM

Quite intelligible, you got this boy's vote.

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Supersonic Air Flow?

04/02/2009 3:57 AM

If this is not a perfect answer it is good enough for the girls I go with.

PMSL Heck ...where do you find these engineering girls? There aren't many of 'em about
Del

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