Renewable vs. Alternative: Weighing Words

Renewable energy is alternative but alternative doesn't have to be renewable.

There. That should clear it up.

But what happens when an alternative source becomes the primary source? Does oil then become alternitive? How do we keep up with the score?

And besides, ALL energy is renewable. It just changes forms. We exist in a closed system (more or less).

Ahhhh..........

I'm afraid that doesn't clear it up.

You question what happens when oil becomes the alternative source, and then go on to say that all energy is renewable.

It's my understanding that fossil fuels, as conventionally produced and consumed, are finite. Which would preclude their classification as renewable.

Like the Guest said, we live in a closed system. We might think we will use all of the oil someday, but maybe we just need to wait for another batch to finish cooking up! Just like "global warming" - the earth heats and cools, just like oil is produced and consumed - I think it really just depends on your perspective of how long a "long time" really is.

That's an interesting distinction that I wouldn't have thought of.

I definitely agree that coal and oil fall into their own category, and cannot be considered in these definitions.

Renewable, (to me) is a source that needs to be maintained in order to sustain itself indefinitely (IE some work must be done).

I'm not sure that Renewal is quite rite to describe the wind and solar etc. There is never a need to Take some action to "replenish" or "renew" the sun, It takes care of that itself.

I do agree that you can consider any form of energy that is not "mainstream" as an alternative, due to the definition of the word.

I suppose this can (in a distant way) be similar to the terms "reduce" "reuse" "recycle" in the sense that they are all describing an overall common message, but each describes a different sector of the same common message while having overlapping traits with the others.

Now i'm down to $0.01 to offer.

Interesting. You see in the word renew, the job of renewing.

I see in the word renew, self restoring, non exhaustion of the resource, due to its renewing... The resource renews itself every (enter time period here).

We did agree on alternative...

I've a penny, you've a penny, Lets see who ca ntake this pot with a nickel...

respectfully.

milo

Hello ednigan. Did that research say that happens on shorter than geologic timescales as I mentioned in my first post? I'm curious if you have a link?

If we believe in "the wisdom of crowds" WISDOMOFCROWDSBOOK then the folks at Wikipedia have this definition pretty well crafted:

Renewable energy is energy generated from natural resources—such as sunlight^[2], wind, rain, tides, geothermal heat and Ocean Thermal Energy—which are renewable (naturally replenished)... The majority of renewable energy technologies are powered by the sun.

Tip of the hat to ye...

milo

and in contributing the other half of the story...(from Wikipedia)

Alternative energy is an umbrella term that refers to any source of usable energy intended to replace fuel sources without the undesired consequences of the replaced fuels^[1]. Typically, official uses of the term, such as qualification for governmental incentives, exclude fossil fuels and nuclear energy^[2][3][4] whose undesired consequences are high carbon dioxide emissions, the major contributing factor of global warming according to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and difficulties of radioactive waste disposal. Over the years, the nature of what was regarded alternative energy sources has changed considerably, and today because of the variety of energy choices and differing goals of their advocates, defining some energy types as "alternative" is highly controversial.

The term "alternative" presupposes a set of undesirable energy technologies against which "alternative energies" are opposed. As such, the list of energy technologies excluded is an indicator of what problems that the alternative technologies are intended to address. Controversies regarding dominant forms of energy and their alternatives have a long history.

Hmmm.. I believe I'll need to take a bank loan as it appears I'm all out of cents.

The topic is definitely interesting, as perspectives can differ so greatly between folks. To be honest, I'd never even thought about it till this post, then i just wrote down what came to mind, I'm definitely not stuck on one brain-wave, I'm just glad i still have a few.

CAn I buy you a beer?

milo

Yes, Why thanks for asking

I like my beer "spicy"

It'd be the only way i could drink one as I seem to have misplaced all my change.

Dear Cranky guy in a cowboy hat.

I'm certainly cool with you.

WHen I found out how many time s elements had to be pumped through stars to get to say iron, Well, I thought maybe somebody put something in MY BEER.

So I get the nuclear is solar but in a fourth cousin once removed kinda way. Does that make it legal for them to share the same grid?

Great link by the way. I'm cornfused about sequence of jurassic etc I believe the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs at end of late crteaceous (and put the pt iridium layer around the globe) was the one that made the gulf of mexico. so perhaps our evacuation of the shallow reach oil has allowed deepest oil there to move to a new meta-equilibrium.

Always a pleasure to engage with you.

milo

S = k log W

(entropy)

you guys owe me a nickel

You'll collect my 2.5cents after you purchase the first round. I'd like a molson golden longneck please.

(and a pint of that maple syrup you been stirrin...)

mil

And I too

Prior to reading that post I would have gone with:

Renewable - an energy source effectively inexhaustible i.e. solar, wind, etc.

Alternative - a means other than gasoline or diesel to transport a vehicle

This is probably due to familiarity with the term Alt-Fuel which will get you HOV (High Occupancy Vehicle) lane status

Now Imma gonna hafta think

(in my little demented mental land, this is what the idea trolls have given me)

Renew-Able

Having the ability to renew, or be renewed.

Not nesiciarily an automatic renewing/replenishing process.

I know i'm kinda on my own here, as the masses have written a deffinition already, which It appears i agree with only partially, But hey, I like to keep things interesting.

I'm gonna say this is all the colors of the rainbow, that is if rainbows were in greyscale.

...if greyscale you could paint yourself a reality of your own choosing........

Now, If i could only paint I'd be quite happy.

Music isn't much differrent........

256 shades of grey, no doubt, but no black and no white.

Reminds me (renews ny memory) of a song..

"...and who decides which is right ,

and which is,,,

an illusion?

Increase orchestra....

milo

I was at Red Rock Canyon, Colorado when they played that song there. One of my fondest memories of a great setting for a great performance.

Hahahaha!

Damned engineers!

We got so busy arguing this essential subject we drove off the poor person that asked the question!

Arguing with an engineer is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig. After a few hours, you realize that he likes it.

Don't think it took Sue hours!

God I love this place!

And you folks!

Oh, no, I'm still here! Just had to, ah, 'renew' my busy brain there for awhile. And get a little work done, here and there. Glad I posted the thread, y'all have been most informative. Beers all around.

Hi 'buddy' aka Sue......apopleptic apologies for going way off topic.....

To attempt to answer your query I would suggest that Renewable and Alternative are wholly design dependant. Alternative suggests a developing technology whereas Renewable suggests ad infinitum. In the worst context they're just buzz words invented for the purpose of re-inventing what has mostly been on the drawing board since necessity dictated the terms of invention. Though quaint and intended to bring the publics focus on current energy issues (a good thing) they nevertheless are self descriptives and their use is intended as such. Anyone with a bit of scientific moxy would never use them as there would be no need to have that kind of a pitch with a scientifically sound proposal....ie....it would be self evident.

I understand the buzz word nature of it all and I appreciate the different perspectives outlined here. Not being an engineer (shhhhh....don't tell), nor playing one on TV, I wanted to get a more professional take on the issue.

Now you have my curious up-----how did you live off of the grid for so long?

Now you have my curious up-----how did you live off of the grid for so long?

Short Answer: with much maintenance and headache....coal oil lamps and propane helped...and actually enjoying the quietude of it all....ie no tv.

Long Answer: had no choice since electric utility decided that area too remote to warrant service. The poles were in place but no wire....and I had already built the house. Took twenty years of court battles and three judgements to force their hand.

He he........buddy can pipe in anytime.........

The alternative energy sources are Solar, Chemical and Gravitational. All other energy sources are permutations of one or more of these basic entities. Each of these sources is sufficient unto itself. Thus Nuclear energy is only a localized manifestation of the same processes taking place to generate solar energy. Energy derived from combustion is chemical energy, which usually, but not always, uses fuel derived from solar energy. Hydroelectric energy depends on gravity for its existence. Thus for an energy source you have the alternatives of Solar, Chemical, or Gravitational. Geothermal is a manifestation of gravitation.

Renewable is an energy that involves a moderately short cyclic pattern of formation, use and regeneration. Hydroelectric is renewable, the water is used for doing work as it falls, evaporates, and is redeposited to its elevation from which it fell. Wood and ethanol are renewable, since the CO2 released as they burn is recycled into more plant growth to make more fuel. Fossil fuels are not renewable, since the timeline for their regeneration is longer that the lifetime of a nation. Nuclear is non-renewable, since the final product of the nuclear processes is non-radioactive. I'm still undecided on wind, since the energy is not really used. With wind of velocity V flowing through a wind turbine and performing work W, the velocity measured 200 yards down wind from the turbine is still V, not V - W. Look at all those wind turbines on I-10 in southern CA, and I don't see any evidence of the work they do diminishing the wind velocity.

Since I'm not an expert on this subject, I think I'll throw a monkey wrench into the works and see if something happens.

Here's my one peso's worth (a little more than two U.S. cents):

Exhaustible energy = fossil fuels (petroleum, coal, wood, nuclear, etc)

Alternative energy = anything that isn't in widespread use at present (note: this includes renewable energy). Biofuels are alternative although, if not enough work is done to renew the source, they will become exhaustible energy as well.

Renewable energy = part of alternative energies that uses renewable sources. What these are, I'll leave it to the experts.

regards,

Vulcan

With growing power and energy demands,electrical and engine power[fueled] are crucially to be considered.

Renewabilty is in terms of available resources,non exaustibile,importantantly augmentable.

Alternative energy is more aiming at cleaner un conventional sources like solar,wind,biomass,tidal/waves etc.

Today's complex and right solution is renewable,cleaner,long term ,augmentable,abundantly available ,low cost sustainable perhaps the real one yet mankind had ever tried about.

Modern research focus can achieve this by thinking beyond books and laws.It is a sure scope.

So......... if I wash my toes where the Ganges flows will this sure scope become known or do I have to spend the next lifetime in a cradle ruminating on what isn't?

If you have this exceptional knowledge of what is beyond books and laws please do share. Otherwise it is platitude sans altitude....lofty perhaps, but no less inspiring than understanding everything and knowing nothing or vice versa.

Dear Duckinthepond,

Thanks for posting your comments to my optimistic goals on sustainable ,low cost,augmentable green power.I am on the job,and reaching positive signals because of my inquisitions to think beyond books.Books are past experience for sharing only and not to make permanent conclusions.Inventions are more of felt understandings and based on scientific proofs.The moment it is mature,sharing comes next next priority.