Moon Teaser

I've known people to wander by the light of the silvery moon, but was unaware that the moon was wandering by the gaze of people.

I would think the orbit would be pretty stable. I do know the Earth has a precession wobble. So maybe there would be a slight apparent change, along with the Sun.

I think the orbit of the Moon is near the same ecliptic plane that the Earth is in around the Sun, so it would appear to track the Sun's position in the sky pretty closely with the change of the seasons. You have to figure we both total and partial eclipses, so it can't be perfectly aligned with the ecliptic plane.

Anonymous Hero's " so it would appear to track the Sun's position in the sky pretty closely with the change of the seasons." can't be right. Have you not heard the saying and seen it: "The winter moon rides high"?

I think the max positions are the same as the sun's, but just reversed in seasons.

The Moon orbit is tied more closley to eliptic plane i.e that of the Sun than to Earths equitorial plane varying up and down about 5 degrees which can of course add or subtract from that due the tilt of the Earths axis according to the season

This link go's into the matter in great detail

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon%27s_orbit

Now that syhprum has "Wiki'd" it away, will someone please come up with a clear answer so that the guys and girls in Coffee Room 4 can stop shouting at each other?

Both are wrong, but both have part of the answer right.

The main component of the moon's declination (the fancy term for how far north and south a celestial object appears) is the declination of the plane of the ecliptic, which is how far north and south the sun appears. If that were all, the girls would be right.

However, the moon's orbit varies slightly from the plane of the ecliptic, so the boys have the right concept in mind. The variation does not mean that the moon's declination range is less than that of the sun, though, so the boys draw the wrong conclusion. The range of declination of the moon is actually larger than that of the sun, by about 5 degrees.

(All information taken from the wikipeida article.)

I hope this is not too redundent, however north american indian tribes fiqured this out long ago. The variation in the moons orbit in relation to the earth and the earths presicion about its own poles results in an eighteen year cycle in moonrise and moon set. Visit NewMexico not Wikipedia

Jorrie,

I vote that you give the American Indians credit for solving this teaser!

As did the dwellers in the British Isles over 4000 years ago - who recorded the limits in various stones circles. I was at Castlerigg in the Lake District for the recent Standstill.

English Rose, If you are so proud of Castlerigg, may we assume you are Red for our Noble Duke, Her Magesty is Duke of Lancaster, or is it 'White' that His Grace The Grand Old Duke sent his Soldiers marching to the top of the hill to collect fine specimens? I believe our CR4 friend 'STL Engineer' has a special place in his heart for the standing stones on Lewis, down the road and past the whalebone arch (1920) to Callanish. Astronomic Observatories, as some eminent accadememics have testified, as well as places of worship and festivity. Milk sacrifices to the gods, but take care of drinking that milk, you may not know what herbs the goat was fed on. These festivals, Spring and Autumnal equinoxes, Summer and Winter solstices, they set the callender, for ploughing sewing and harvesting, for settling old scores and grievances, and for selecting good stock to tup the flock. Merry England was truely merry as Brother Sun's shadows grew longest over the snows.

Oi be a simple wes' coun'ry lass, living in exile in yellowbelly coun'ry. Given a choice of red or white, I'd haff to say red - particularly as I have lived there for two separate periods (and was almost fluent at one point, but can't type in dialect).

You forgot the excuse to gather and join in festivities, mead being essential - and see the majic (well if you can spell majesty with a g, I can spell magic with a j!) of the sun rising between the stones. Even in our modern age, 'tis a mystical sight, and one we share with seers, knowers and magicians (=scientists!) of ages past.

As well as the fire festivals you list, there are the cross-quarter days, preserved in the Christian calendar - Candlemas (Imbolc) Feb 2, the beginning of spring; May Day (Beltaine) coming of summer, the time of fertility; Michaelmas (Lammas/Lughsanagh) the first harvest and Hallowe'en (Samhain) the coming of winter, the remembrance of the dead and ancestors. So life is encompassed in the wheel of the year.

And we shouldn't forget that the South American Olmec, Aztecs, and Incas also noted these things, as did those in the Indo-China area. Astronomy is an ancient science.

[PS Mods: add Hallowe'en to the spell checker - it's the correct spelling, the apostrophe is essential]

Magister, Magistrate, Magi, Magician, Magisty, It was the 'i' not the 'g'.....in Majesty. No joke or 'jest'. about it. Well Spotted English Rose . Lilli-bet is how her Majesty signs her Eclesiastical Documents. She is my Rose. and has been since I had grazed knees, skuffed shoes and a muddy face. Her smile is as enchanting as any bloom. Off thread, who cares? I have a sneaking suspicion Jorrie's book may even find a way into Windsor Castle Library?

Oops, And those muniments on public display 'Ely-beth' after 'Ely' Cathedral, our first.

For fun check out:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/cambridgeshire/content/panoramas/ely_cathedral_360.shtml

Ely started as a small monestry in 673, In this 360 degree panorama you just might spot the 'Feltwell' Bell jutting out, a few degrees clockwise past the Alter. It was too heavy for the tower at Feltwell, where legend has it Saint Helena first landed. The river was then 'tidal' only as far as Feltwell. The Gateway to Merry England.

Hi Alastair, yep, as you said: "it may be off topic, but who cares?" After, all, the question of the "teaser" has been answered and more...

The only issue may be that all the "loose talk" pushed this thread to the top of the log of "Recently active threads" on CR4 Home page!

Anyway, interesting discussions you and Rose have!

Discussion was taken off thread before your post Jorrie...one or two replies are ok, I believe, but more is bad netiquette.

Thanks for your interesting topic. I found out about the lunar standstill from http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=2146412398, I think you'd be interested in this gentleman's observations. This is just one part of his publications - the rest are linked from this one.

Maglithic Portal is one very interesting site - to be recommended!

The Moon governs the 'Tides' see, My post was 'Cryptically' on thread Jorrie.

Yeah, 5 degrees seems to jog my memory, too.

OK, the 5° relative to the ecliptic is right and the ~18 year cycle of the American Indians is right, but the guys still insist that it should be subtracted from the 23.5° North and South. The girls are unsure now, but they think on average, they are right!

Just what do these guys think the 18.6-year cycle indicates? Sometimes the peak North-South variation will be greater than 23.5 degrees, sometimes it less. If the girls are talking about averaging the peak of the NS excursions over the cycle, they will be approximately correct - but the number of lunar orbits in each cycle is not an integer, and then there are long-term changes in the angle of the ecliptic...

I think they should all go home and sober up

I agree with the general concensus as implied by syphrum and clariified by Fitzppatrick - the Moon does 'wander' substantially further North and South than does the Sun. But I feel that Jorrie's question is worth more than a purely factual answer...

The guys have geocentric logic on their side - if the orbit of the moon was determined by earthly tides, the moon's orbit would be equatorial - that is the moon would never go north or south. This is true of the orbits of Mars' moons, and also of the closer-in moons of Jupiter or Saturn - indicating the theoretical basis for this view. (However, they might have known that eclipses are pretty-much as common in midsummer and winter as in spring). The problem is that Earth's orbit is so close to the sun (and the moon is so far from the earth) that tidal effects from the sun exceed those of the earth. Presumably this is why the moon's orbit is essentially ecliptic.

Which leaves me with a question - does anyone know anything about the origin of the the 5-degree inclination?

"Which leaves me with a question - does anyone know anything about the origin of the the 5-degree inclination?"

It was another one of those metric to English conversion snafus in the design stage!

I never realised (until now) just how far Americans attributed god-like characteristics to the English. First cosmological powers, and then conversion.

Good point, and catch!

OK, so "doing the math" reveals that both boys and girls need some help; the maximum would be 23.5° 'plus' the 5° tilt of the moon's orbit, or 28.5°, and a similar minimum of -28.5°...but not reaching these maximums every year, right? (about 20° to 77° above the southern horizon for us here)
I guess that's why we don't have a lunar eclipse every month as the moon passes (mostly) behind the earth.

What I'm still wondering:

Is the moon made up of 'exactly' the same stuff as the earth's core, indicating that perhaps an impact (at 5° or so off the ecliptic?) during a molten stage caused a blob to split off and form the moon...

or is it not, indicating that it formed independently and was "captured" by the earth's gravity as it passed by, at exactly the distance, angle, and velocity needed to become the stable moon that we know.

Either way, without it life on this planet as we know it would not have been possible, so I'm just glad God figured out early on that it was necessary. What a guy.

Sandman wrote: "... reveals that both boys and girls need some help; the maximum would be 23.5° 'plus' the 5° tilt of the moon's orbit, or 28.5°, and a similar minimum of -28.5°...but not reaching these maximums every year, right?." This is correct, as quite a few have implied before. In my Tidal Prediction Blog-post, the cycles of the moon are pictured nicely.

The composition of the Moon? I believe basically the same as Earth, just put together slightly differently. Someone with geology knowledge have it more complete for us?

Hi Jorrie, follow this link http://moon.google.com/ and soom in, it tells you what the moon is made of.

Google can't be wrong!

I remember reading somewhere (on an apparantly serious and sensible site) that during the series of moon landings in the early seventies, seismic transducers were placed on the surface of the moon to "listen" to the impact of and resulting resonance after subsequent moon landings. This site said that NASA's data showed that the moon rang like a bell - or more accurately like a hollow metal sphere.

Anybody else a) seen this, b) can show us the data c) can show us it's not true?!

PS The words "von Daniken" didnot appear on the site!

Check this out

http://www.springerlink.com/index/J4156275416U0021.pdf

Thanks PlbMak - looks like some lunchtime reading!

I read that big earthquakes here on earth 'ring like a bell' also that if you stuck a postage stamp onto a football, that would be about the thickness of our earth's crust. Just fill a balloon with water, it also rings or wobbles if you prefer. The moon may have a liquid center? like those liqueur chocolates? Just guessing, the net is loaded with websites on the subject.

I thought everyone knew the moon is made of green cheese. However, I must confess I have always been curious -- if it is made of green cheese, why does it look white?

I did not realise we had 'intelligent design' enthusiasts amongst our correspondents!, I am sure somewhere out there the inhabitants of some moonless planet are quite convinced that life could not possibly have evolved on a planet with a large close moon

"The little green men" hypothesis is supported by rock samples and probability theory. But just how they managed to put our moon there is still a mystery. Those pointy ears indicate that their speech is several octaves higher than ours, and like bats, as Richard Dawkins pointed out, they might even hear in 'colour'? The antennae on top of there heads may be for communication, but I reckon it's for attracting a mate.

I always think a picture is worth a thousand words and since nobody else did I drew this.

As you can see from the diagram the Earths axis of rotation shown in red always points in the same direction and is inclined at 23.5º to the axis of its orbit (black circle) around the Sun. Now the Moons orbit shown in purple is also inclined to the plane of the earths orbit and the plane of its orbit stays at this angle regardless of the position of the Earth. Position a shows the alignment for the Moon to be at its maximum northerly inclination of 28.5º. At position b the Moon is passing through the Earths orbital plane and a total solar eclipse would be in progress. At point c the moon is at its most southerly inclination of -28.5º. Finally at point d the Moon again passes through the plane of earths orbit and a total lunar eclipse is in progress.

Please note that for clarity reasons I have simplified things somewhat, somthing which I have no doubt will be pointed out.

Hi Masu, you said: "I always think a picture is worth a thousand words and since nobody else did I drew this."

Very nice picture, I'm impressed, really!

I do however think your picture falls short of the thousand words mark by about 111! As I understand it, you show one year, while there is an 18.6 year cycle in the orbital plane's precession.

Maybe we could combine my 5 pictures (3 to 7) with your's and produce a full 1000 words worth!

Unfortunately my diagram which depicts 4 separate cycles doesn't show the relationship between the timing of the orbits which is what causes the 18 year cycle. I thought it more important to show the four limits of the process. I should have also shown this;

which shows the Moon (position c) at its most northerly point in this particular cycle but because of the alignments it is only 18.5º north and conversely (position a) when it reaches the most southerly part of another cycle it is 18.5º south.

Something else I found about the moon is its size as below and no its not just your imagination sometimes the moon is actually bigger.

Both photographs were taken with the same camera and lens and shows the difference in size due to the eccentricity of the Moons orbit. You can read more about it at the site I found the photograph

http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/moon_ap_per.html

Maybe one day I will invest in some software that can do animations that will let me show the full relationship between the two orbits.

Great Photos of our moon, Masu. Looking at the 'impact' crater at the bottom in each photograph, it is easy to speculate that the moon was given quite a hefty knock, doubtless altering it's orbit considerably. What a 'neat' calling card. if indeed it was a deliberate act and not a mere accident? Before that 'knock', and possibly other minor adjustments, the orbit of the moon would only ensure a very irregular total eclipse, occurring perhaps every million or so years....if we were lucky?

Lovely Drawing, Thanks Masu. Now where did I put my 'Flamarian' encyclopaedia of the cosmos. Our lovely silver moon exhibits rather an eccentric behaviour, the orbits are definitely not circular. The ancient Chaldeans saw wonder and enchantment in the 'Saros Cycle' of Total Eclypses. Though not absolutely perfect, we have two 'primes' 223 & 239 and 2 x 11^2=242.......My 'Delta' cone thinking cap has stars and moons printed on as well. Now where is my magic wand. time to pull a few rabits out of the Top Hat. Quentin Wallop's the custodian of Sir Isaac Newton's esoteric papers. The other Portsmouth Papers at Cambridge,are one of the most treasured muniments in Science. An expert in Cypher, and quite a few have discovered his code. ('Spirals' is the only clue I will give, remembering numbers pivot on '1' i.e. 0..1/infinity.....1/9, 1/8/ 1/7, 1/6, 1/5, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, ......infinity)

(223 synodic = 242 draconic = 239 anomalistic months)= the 'Saros' 18 yrs 11days 8 hours, so every third saros the eclypse is back to essentially the same place on the globe. Simply 'Magic'

So how dose that explain the two total solar eclipses within just on a year in Port Moresby in 1983 and one year later in 1984? I was fortunate to be there for the first one and was surprised at the effect it had on the both the indigenous people and the wild life.

Hi Mesu, May I 'Bless' you with at least another 54 years and 34 days of life, then you may see a 'repeat' performance, probably about a hundred miles north? and possibly one or even both will be 'partial'. I will have to make enquiries. I saw the Total in Kenya of 1980. Simply amazing, but because I was about five miles from the narrow totality path, centre line, I missed the Bailey's beads, and did not see the 'Diamond Ring' as well as others. Sadly work took precedence. I had to stay put. Then in 1999 U.K. was clouded over.

I would be good to see it again and by then there may even be a road there. Unfortunately Papua New Guinea is cash strapped and the roads, where they exists, leave a great deal to be desired. If you want to cross the country from the capital Port Moresby on the southern coast to Lae on the northern and didn't fly you would need to use the Kakoda track. The track however is in worse condition now than it was in WW2 and it was only a walking track then.

Slightly off thread Masu, but on the topic of 'Lunacy' a close cousin of mine started a Roman Catholic Mission in Papua New Guinea, and collected vast sums of dosh from enthusiastic supporters in the good ol' US of A. Sadly this was in the early 1960's and if you read history, i.e. 'The Siri Thesis' etc. you will learn that the poor Vatican was under considerable strain from 'criminal elements' The money collected went 'Walkabout' and never was seen again. My cousin asked to be absolved of his Priest's Vows. and retired then and there. The poor will always be 'strapped' as it's like stealing candy from an child. You should watch the wicked die. as many priests do. Their last moments are terrible. one can only have pity.

No one in their right senses would try to watch a Solar eclipse from England, after waiting for it for 65 years I chose to go to Karlsruhe to view the 1999 one and had a delightful time

Masu, you wrote: "So how dose that explain the two total solar eclipses within just on a year in Port Moresby in 1983 and one year later in 1984?"

The Moon passes the ecliptic about twice a month, so it just depends where the Sun is at those times, i.e, if it is New Moon or not. Since the period of New Moons is roughly the same as the period of the Moons orbit, I guess one can get a few eclipses close to each other and then have to wait a long time for another 'batch'.

Indeed so Jorrie, the rythm of the 'Saros' is a 'Funky' one. always/ish repeating with only slight variations. which is why it is so 'musical' Also those 'two primes & double square of eleven' ensure that our silvery moon is just at the eclyptic, and just the right distance to just exactly cover brother sun's face, so that those Bayley's beads twinkle magically though the lunar valleys. followed by her Diamond Engagement Ring sparkling for all to witness on Earth. if so lucky? The 'wicked' are generally very lazy, and would never understand the complex calculations. Priests and Sages, are generally very consciencious. So every total Eclypse their 'influence' as a rule is/was enhanced. Now we are furtunate to be able to discard superstition for rigorous science. I believe our lovely moon still has mysteries to reveal yet.