The Universe: Expanding into What?

"Our universe has been described as like a balloon that is expanding, but expanding into what?"

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The anology with the universe-as-balloon is somewhat misleading (to say the least). The balloon analogy is used of the universe to illustrate (only) two properties of the universe: a balloon's surface (the only part of this analogy that is relevant, believe me) is an example of a finite, unbounded surface. Secondly, dots on a balloon's surface move farther apart as the balloon is inflated, and closer together when the balloon is deflated. Again, we're speaking only of the balloon's surface.

Now forget everything else you know about balloons.

And boy do I mean everything.

There is no outside. Not even in principle. The universe isn't expanding into anything. There is no outside, no beyond, no nothing. Not even nothing. Nonexistence itself.

As there is no outside, there is no boundary. Really, what does a boundary do? Doesn't it serve the essential purpose of separating one something from another something? Here a boundary would be dividing an outside from an inside. If there is no outside, there is nothing for a boundary to be between - and consequently, there is no inside either.

There is no inside? "Ha!" You say? At this point you surely must be thinking, "He's got to be kidding! He's a madman, a loonie!" Nope. Not a loonie. Why? The terms outside, boundary, and inside exist meaningfully only in relationship to each other. You can't speak meaningfully of one of them without the other two present. Try it.

The "balloon analogy" is cited almost universally when discussing an expanding universe. Only problem is, no one seems to remember to also mention the analogy's shortcomings insofar as the universe is concerned. Beyond the superficial similarity between galaxies spreading apart and dots on an inflating balloon spreading apart, not even the finite, unbounded surface of a balloon is a reliable comparison. The universe may, in fact, not be finite. And this has nothing to do with the fact that a balloon's curvature exists only in three dimensions.

Forget everything you know about balloons when speaking of the universe. Everything. The universe is as different from a balloon as packing your lunch is from taking a train.

If our universe is expanding, I do not think it unreasonable to presume that it is expanding into something that surrounds it.I realized that the balloon analogy is a super-simplified model, but allows one to mentally get a grip on a concept. In my opinion, and I could be wrong, then there at least two parts to the "megaverse": the part that is occupied by our universe, and the part that is occupied by everything else.Within the megaverse could exist an unknown number of other universes. To say that there is nothing else beyond our universe is short-sighted and egotistical.To say that our universe creates it's own space-time as it goes is also egotistical.Man has always resisted any idea that decreased his personal importance in the universe, and we resist the idea of our universe being only one of many.We had rather accept the idea that there is nothing outside of our ability to comprehend, that our universe is "IT", the one and only. We assign terms such as infinite, random, and chaos to things we cannot fathom. A New York city sidewalk at 12 noon viewed from a thousand feet of altitude appears to be crawling with little insects, and the motion appears random. Yet every speck knows where it is going..it is not random at all..it is just too complicated to analyse, so we cop out and call it "Random" or "Chaotic" The universe is too complicated to totally understand, so we say it is "Infinite" ("Beyond here there be dragons"). Scientists disparage anyone that does not agree with the mainstream as ignorant, or lacking the mental ability to grasp their concept, and they stumble on with their arrogance and self-imposed ignorance. Careers have been made and destroyed by backing the wrong theory, and most are reluctant to go against the flow.After all, one must make a living in the real world, and the peer pressure suppresses a lot of possible knowledge. Do not be afraid to think the unthinkable.To suggest the impossible. As for me, I don't have to worry about that.I can accept the idea that our universe may be one of billions of bubbles on an alien seashore,or simply flatulence in some giant bathtub.And insofar as when the universe ends? For all intents and purposes, it ends when we die. And the worms cannot taste the difference between the brain of an idiot and a genius. IMHO. HTRN (exit 0)

You wrote: "If our universe is expanding, I do not think it unreasonable to presume that it is expanding into something that surrounds it."

Think about this statement for a minute. If there is a something into which the Universe can expand, is this something not also Universe?

You wrote: "To say that there is nothing else beyond our universe is short-sighted and egotistical."

It certainly could be short-sighted! But I remain willing to entertain viable alternatives - given sufficient and compelling reasons to do so. And as it seems no one seems to have come up one shred of evidence to the contrary, I tend to err on the side of what is actually known. Consequently, I remain unconvinced of your argument. (By the way, would you like to see my fine collection of Occam's Razors?)

As far as my statement being egotistical (perhaps a better term would be universe-centric)? I'm not sure how our having no proof (none at all) of a "megaverse" necessarily has anything to do with ego as such. Perhaps it would be more productive to think of this viewpoint as simply the product of practical expedient in the face of a total absence of proof to the contrary.

For my part, speculation and knowledge are poles apart but, strangely enough, my ex could never seem to make this distinction. For her it was always, "I guess, therefore it must be."

-e

Guest -e (does this sound like '-europium'?) wrote: "I'm not sure how our having no proof (none at all) of a "megaverse" necessarily has anything to do with ego as such."

The present standard cosmological model actually allows us to have a very big 'ego'! "Our universe is infinite in size; how big is yours?"

In fact, the infinite universe postulate solves a lot of issues. For one, it does not need anywhere to expand into, yet the observed expansion of our little nook (our observable universe) can happen regardless.

Obviously, we do not know if the universe is infinite in size. It is just the simplest model that fits all our data we have - Occam's razor applied.

Jorrie wrote: Guest -e (does this sound like '-europium'?) Guilty, as charged.

How big is my universe? After I've had my morning coffee (three cups), I'll take a look around. Before my morning coffee, all bets are off.

-e

My initial reply as "Guest" (it helps to log in) discussed the limitations of the balloon analogy - including the possibility (near the end of the second-to-last paragraph) that the balloon analogy might even have a further limitation: a balloon's surface is finite.

Then someone tossed in a couple of references to "ego" and reduced the discussion to a clash of personalities. (sigh)

I need this?

-e

The term "ego" was used in a general reference mode, and did not point to anyone specifically.If it offended you in some manner, I apologize.I will try to be more diplomatic in the future, even though I am not a politician or running for office. I do not wish to offend anyone, simply to stimulate conversation and consider ideas that are out of the mainstream.Who knows, someone may hit upon a new theory, or find flaws in old ones that need "shaving"

My apologies for being so "touchy." I have a lot on my mind right now and I logged onto CR4 as a much-needed diversion.

My younger brother called yesterday to say that my 80-year-old mother, who resides in Colorado, was admitted to a hospital a few days ago with a faltering heart valve, very high white blood cell count, and fluid around her kidneys and liver. She's had high blood pressure for the last several years but refuses to do anything about it, insisting instead that her B.P. was normal for someone of her age (mom is a master of denial). As she's also been given a sizeable dose of blood thinner to prevent clotting, surgery at this time is not an option. It remains unclear at this time whether she will recover. She's in pretty bad shape.

I'm not offering this as an excuse for my being touchy, and my apology stands. However, it does give a little insight as to the why. Probably my best bet at this point is simply to read but not post.

-e

I am truly sorry to hear of the health problems of your mother.I know it is an especially stressful situation, having been there myself.Many older people go into denial, and I suspect it has to do with the onset of senility.It was very hard to keep my mother on her meds as well.Your apology is accepted, but I must bear some responsiblity myself.I tend to be a bit caustic at times, as well as outspoken.

I will try to control the Ph of my comments in the future.

My prayers are with you and your family and especially your mother.

(exit 0) HTRN

If the universe is expanding, it must be larger today than it was yesterday.Therefore the outer dimensions are now greater than yesterday.If it is already infinite,how can it become larger?.To say "Larger" implies that there are two reference points to compare.If it can be measured, it is not infinite.What is infinity plus 1? You say our universe needs nothing to expand into.So matter occupies no space?Define nothing. Is it Empty Space, containing neither matter nor energy?Surely it must be.For tomorrow there will be matter and space-time where there was none yesterday.Help me get my mind around your concept of nothing.It may be beyond my mental ability to do so, but give it a shot. Thanks

Hi Guest, you wrote: "If the universe is expanding, it must be larger today than it was yesterday."

I think much of the confusion arises because we loosely say "the universe is expanding", while all we actually know is that the space between galaxies/clusters/super-clusters is increasing. So we should rather say "space is expanding".

Further, we know from measurement that our observable universe has a finite size and that it is expanding. What happens on the other side of that observable horizon, we don't know, except that it appears as if there is much, much more of the same thing....

Whether the universe is infinite, we simply don't know. But, if it happens to be infinite, that does not stop our observable universe from expanding. What happens to "infinity+1" is probably in the sphere of philosophy and to most engineers, irrelevant! Or is it....

Thanks for clearing that up.Has it been considerd that "beyond our observable horizon" may not be uniform and consistent, and that variations in that "whatever" may have an effect on the observable universe? I used the analogy infinity+1 to illustrate the apparent enigma of saying something is infinite, yet expanding.If it is infinite, there is no need to expand.If it is expanding, it is not infinite.Now if "whatever is beyond our observable universe" is infinite, that is a different scenario, and is easier to accept and understand.So we are,apparently, expanding into "something".

I for one, do not let my knowledge horizon limit my imagination horizon.We do not know what lies beyond the observable horizon, so we do not really know if what lies beyond is homogeneous or not.If it is not, and is variable in it's properties, it could possibly have an effect on our rate of expansion.Maybe the effects that we attribute to dark energy are actually effects of whatever is outside of our knowledge horizon.

A repulsive force from within could be almost indistinguishable from an attractive force from outside our observable horizon.It could be difficult to prove, but I am sure someone will eventually figure out a method.If we had a method of measuring the absolute "pressure" of our universe, we could tell, because a variation in this "pressure" would indicate the source of the expansion. A decrease in "pressure" while expanding would indicate a decrease in external"pressure".Likewise, an increase in internal pressure while expanding would indicate a force from within.

I know this is an oversimplification of a very complex problem,but perhaps we could capture the ambient pressure of space as it is now, and compare it to pressure at a future time.

I am sure this idea is full of holes, and my ignorance is surely showing.I do not hold this to be a theory, merely speculation from an old redneck with a laptop, killing time while waiting for my dog to tree a raccoon.(exit 0) HTRN

Jorrie, you are blessed, only 'one' believer is needed, just in case, I also believe in an 'Infinite' Universe. Yours and mine and all faithful CR4 readers. 'Hocus Pocus' you are all blessed.

One tends to find what one is looking for.If we never look beyond what is "Known" we will never progress far beyond what we know.I realize that some (most) of my ideas belong in the sci-fi realm, but how much sci-fi has actually preceeded reality? It is called sci fi because it is so far ahead as to seem ridiculous.Perhaps I am wrong, big deal, no ego investment to lose.Just an opinion. By the way, e. Wal Mart has Desinex on sale this week.

I am willing to concede that my ideas probably belong to the sci-fi field, and as I said, I could be wrong.It is simply an opinion.I have no ego-equity in it.I feel free to specualte on the improbable and the "impossible" and am not insulted or threatened by other opinions.Sci-fi has always preceeded reality by many years.I also realize that there is no proof of anything I say, it is merely a "what if " scenario. I respect the known physical laws, but my thinking is not constrained within it's boundaries.Radio waves have been around since almost the begining of time, and they were only recently(realtively speaking) discovered and used. 200 years ago, you would have been considered the village idiot to speak of such things.Mining moon rocks for water was speculated in sci-fi (The Moon's a Harsh Mistress) many years before we sent a craft to look for it, and indeed find it at the poles.No evidence existed to support this speculation at the time of this book.Jules Verne created a submarine in his mind long before one existed in reality.I am not saying that my opiniions have, or ever will have any validity,or will ever come close to the prophetic writings of some of the famous sci-fi writers.For every Jules Verne and Issac Asimov, there are millions of lesser mortals such as I.I can accept that status, and by doing so, I am still free to speculate and think outside of the box.

Is the total heat in the universe increasing, or decreasing?Is there a method to measure the "pressure" of the universe?The answers to these questions should help to determine whether the universe is limited, and bounded by a "membrane", or not. Sometimes I sweep the floor at Occam"s Barber Shop, and find some things of dubiuos, yet possible value in the shavings.

UNI= ?

Not many, Full marks!

MEGA=Million

Many.

Perhaps one in many and many in one? I am a devout 'Trinitarian' You & Me and the Universe we both share. Babies make me very happy when they look deep into ones eyes and then break into a huge smile. then look at mom and look back and forth between the mum and me, "Who is this?" their 'eyeyes' seem to say Two Eyes + Two Eyes = A single eye. when both eyes are smiling.

Perhaps the 'universe' is not quite 'saddle' shaped, but 'smile' shaped?

If you are inside a balloon and balloon is enlarging due to heat produced by you then that is like your expanding universe without balloon surface. All matter is like balloon air or particles.

There are two kinds of people: those who make broad generalizations, and those who don't.

Agreed.

Shyam, for the record my interest lies in applied mathematics, which means that pure mathematicians are praying for my soul. to them I am a 'dead' mathematician. They say the Universe is shaped like a saddle just now. This dead mathematician says that it must be a circle subtending more than 360 degrees then. Cut out a circle from paper, cut again from circumference to center. This slit can be opened to any desired subtended extra angle, creating a saddle shape. If stretchy crepe paper can be obtained, there is no need even to create a slit.

Of note, if a flexible disc of 360+ to 365 degrees is spun on a small electric motor, it becomes a very efficient 'Radial Fan' drawing air in from both sides. Laminar flow we think is responsible for this. What if this Saddle Universe is spinning? makes me 'dizzy' just thinking about it.

That sounds very very interesting and you will love it too.

Think the universe is like a surface of the balloon. In a cool way accept that what Jorrie sair that big bang was every where. You can think that balloon got punctured and than there was a bang or big bang but some how matter is only proken like segments on the earth surface and started drifting in the form of gallaxies.

what this gentleman is telling you to think his coordinates not spherical but spiral type tathat start from one pole of the earth and ends at another. Hence, spiral is initially small and it grows and then again it becomes small. You can represent entire universe on one axis of that speral. You need not worry, how big the balloon is and go relative position for it. If you are on the polse than father universe is expanding universe for you as it has greater velocity. So for people on pole on earth, the entire eath other than pole is expanding earth. For those on equator, the earth is slowing down. Nothing really happening on the earth and there is positional velocity difference we see. This may be so for the universe. This middle portion of the so called universe may also be filled. The entire our universe may be spinning top for its stability. Small explosion here and there are like fire crackers on earth will not affect it. Even contenental drift equivalent in the form of Gallxies formation may also be not very disturbing to it. Perhaps, it may be a regular process. As Universe is not solid, there is also this migration from inside to the surface or inside may be all hollow. It is also possible that the surface may be some water surface like oscillations causing damage to the gallaxies once a while. Gallxies hitting each other is a clear possibility in this model.

There is also a possiblity of other shapes of the universe. a disk like shape or rind like shape or donut shape looks to be very likely because i like it that way and not because universe is that way. My idea may differ from that of my God.

Forspital shape universe the ends will be highly tubulent and can only meet through inner core. Think of starting from one polse in spiral way and ending at another polse and then going through the core to the other pole to complete the link. Now also compress the sphere into donut shape. and use the center hole as place for particle synthesizing from energy by cofining it into a donut shape. Hence particles are donut form of photon energy compressed in small space. Universe is also that way or near to that shape. Your donut is your universe. You can eat it if you like and your son or daughter may like that idea and perhaps your wife already knows that. Leave the dark and black to the black magic people. Let us be a part of bright universe. Others may be right but why to live in dark.

I have this story. One scientist was doing some research on jail inmates so he spent all his time with them, lived with them, took food what they eat and fianlly died and burried with them there. His son asked his mother. Why dad was jailed for life? Did he do some crime?

I will say to the friends in the world to make the world better for your people and much safe place to live. Divert your knowledge towards active help. Some may still be thinking in forest like saints or angels looking at what God has created.I think we can look at what is here with us created by the God (big bang master).

Shyam, I think what Jorrie is saying when he postulates a universe expanding everywhere all at once, is actually in line with very ancient cosmology. The symbol for zero is a circle. in vedic texts a dot. indicating 'no dimension' and the circle represents 'no position' i.e. somewhere within the bounds of this arbitrary 'zero' or 'circle' exists an entity perhaps 'non-entity' the whereabouts of, we do not know.

When we move the circle about eventually the dot is no longer bound by the circle. i.e. it lies outside the circle. The maximum distance we can move this circle and still contain the dot is the 'diameter' of the circle. our first '1' . is movement. A movement.

This movement, the first undefined 'singularity' is itself reduced to a dot. Schwartzchild radius circle if you like. we can now use this dot as a place to position the point of our compass, and draw a larger circle, now we have 'Definite Knowledge' we need not just move the circle about randomly so as to determine if the 'dot' is 'bounded'....We can just move the circle an exact radius.....Hold on a tick....This is pure matematics.....I am 'off cumden' (Lancashire for stranger).....They will stop praying for me. Better stick to applied mathematics. I much prefer nice pure mathematicians constantly praying for my soul.

It is just so simple. You see Lion in a cage and lion looks at you in a bigger cage.

The universe is -infinity to +infinity in space of itself. Jorrie or no other person can make you feel what it is as no one can ever reach the limit. All we can say that space is within the universe itself and not beyod and there is no limit to what space can be. Or let any one put any limit if one thinks it is that way.

If you think the universe is in a balloon then outside of the balloon is also inside of the balloon for people outside the balloon.

Shyam, I just love the 'Lion' analogy, My Professor way back in the early 1970's was Sher Singh Sher, 'Lion of Lions' and also President of the Golden Temple. I believe. I also believe related to :- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sher_Singh_Attariwalla

He came over to U.K. and was for a time my guest. He was addressing our Parliament and Lambeth Conference on ceremonial matters.

Sher Singh Attariwalla crushed the British Army and gave them a good hiding. Well done! Salute! we live and learn more from our defeats than from our victories.

The analogy I gave of a circle that subtends more than 360 degrees may prove instructive. "How much more than 360 degrees?" might be postulated, i.e. what would a circle of 3600 degrees look like? Perhaps a bit like a beautiful Red Poppy Flower just waiting to bloom having sprung from the muddy desolated fields of a great devastating battle?......Indeed Shyam, I am no poet, but Professor Sher Singh Sher was an excellent one. and taught me to always think 'poetically' as it is more memorable. Thanks for the reminder.

This analogy is very simple. If you want to cage a lion then you put a cage around yourself and lion automatically get caged.

That is what you learn in quantum mechanics. If you look for a particle at some place and if it is not there then it is (likely to be) everywhere else at that moment. Worst thing is that if you come out of the room then also you remain there in the room for a while as your Ghost. You do not exit 100% from point of view of quantum mechanics. Can you digest that? But those scientists really are not all that wrong and that is how our brain really works. Tunneling is something that takes places and is real. In supper conductors, electrons make friends with similar charge. Like the way Americans were friend of Osama against Russians. I think the world inside is wonderful and yet to be fully discovered. I am only afraid of darkness so do not like dark energy and dark matter research. I prefer some light and bright photons. Do you want to buy a lamp with dark photon or eat food made of black matter. I will hate that. Dr. Jorrie just want to try that on us! Remain careful.

Shyam you wrote:- "...But those scientists really are not all that wrong and that is how our brain really works...."

Check out the mysterious research of the late Professor & Head Department of Neurosurgery University of Sheffield Dr. John Lorber.... Who wrote a paper in 'The Lancet' medical Journal "Is a Brain Really Necessary?"

http://www.alternativescience.com/no_brainer.htm A recent Newspaper Headline, "Lack of Brains Hinders Research" A funny example of the equivocal fallacy booby-trap. Better put that cage round me quick...}<[[[<<>>]]]>{

Neuron puzzel was - if neuron has 1M Ohms resistance and there is 100 pF link pacacitance then message should have a response time of 10ms. How come millions of neuron fire and resolve the situation and come to some conclusion. So, go tunneling and you get ps time to travel. Plan to tunnel through black hole, dark matter, use dark photon and whatever. Your brain has all that and perhaps I am full of it now and shaking to give out but just can't do so. Wherever I go people talk just that. Do you know what dark matter is? I tell them to look at their tea cup and they smile as if they know now. That is why I told about the universe as balloon. You immediately know it then. I build some confidence in people and then some one just does that big bang everywhere. We need some real ground to stand. Phycists not have all imaginary ground to build cities. One thing is sure that they need worry about the limit of my balloon based universe. I limited the unknown space inside my balloon now such that universe may look big and unlimited outside. It may be just the opposite other wise as I started at the first place. Do you like small universe or big one?

A women in my village came to the village when she got married and never went out until she was dead at 90 plus. I know her as she cared for me when I was 18 months and was with her up to 5 years of age. She was scared of bicycle as it moved fast. She had never seen any bus or car. She knew people, bulls, cows, goats, sheeps at best, or she knew me. I thought het hair were that of silver. My mom had lots of silver and gold so I compared all things with that knowledge at that time. My world at 18 months was real limited one. I think it is still limited.

Limit of anything prohibits you to go beyong and is visualized as a boundary.

For the universe, if you think that earth surface is the outer surface of the universe, then it will give you a closed limit feeling and you can move all sides of the earth to find it that way. Unfortunately space is also a part of the universe and is not something is isolation. That makes it more difficult by explaining using balloon type idea for those who thinks of limits for space. Space is adynamic thing created by anything that enters it or likely to enter it. If nothing ever can enter it then that is the limit. These limits may arise anywhere. For that matter, you can not enter the world of so called dark energy, dark matter etc (I am feeling uncomfotable writing about dark or black but doing it as that is your curiocity). You can call that limit the end of your universe and start of another.

If you can manage to transport and and survive there, then you will see another set of friends and another CR4 going on there. I wonder if you can find all people also there. It is easy to dream anything and all people are actually dreaming and telling their part of stories. Physicists have become poets now and science is written as poems. Why to question any one dreams? You can bang any one who claims he/she knows everything about the universe. Now science is like this. It may be this way, that way or for that matter in any other way also........ What is that tell you?

The slow down is known. You can use the Hubble constant to compute the slowing down factor which is already measurable. With very sensitive photonics, we may detect slow down much better in fathest gallaxies. We can not see the debris that may already have gone farthest distances.

I expect some exchange of matter among the universes even if there is restriction on such exchanges due to membranes or holding power due to gravity effects. We may also get something from other universes a bit, that is not ours.

If there is no balloon effect at the end and we are like factory for Gallaxies then God is just here somewhere on the earth doing big bangs once a while and exporting things out.

Dude, where have you been?

<I expect some exchange of matter among the universes even if there is restriction on such exchanges due to membranes or holding power due to gravity effects. We may also get something from other universes a bit, that is not ours.>

Yo! What other universes?\

<The slow down is known. You can use the Hubble constant to compute the slowing down factor which is already measurable. With very sensitive photonics, we may detect slow down much better in fathest gallaxies. We can not see the debris that may already have gone farthest distances.>

What slowdown? Something is accelerating the expansion of the universe; something scientists are calling Dark Energy but of which little is apparently known. The universe is not slowing down at all! Rather, according to Them That Know, it is speeding up! And the bigger U it gets, the faster U expands.

<If there is no balloon effect at the end and we are like factory for Gallaxies then God is just here somewhere on the earth doing big bangs once a while and exporting things out.>

I get it. You live in a Pretend Universe. Must be nice!

Hubble data can be trusted as it is almost same spectrum for all gallaxies with only few peaks of minor explosions that differ. Only main difference is the spectrum shift. Perhaps the big bang initially was intense and then it also slowed down may be the cause of latter velocity differences.

There also may be another greater gravity shell outside our visible universe causing this effect. The balloon of larger gravity and cooled matter forming a shell of our universe and having lots of matter already there invisible to us? This can solve the acceleration part. I have not looked into Hubble data all that in details. I only know the the costant is about 19.6km/s/MLy. Looking at the size of the Gallaxies with distances can give an idea of why there is velocity difference.

If we are ever expanding and at faster and faster rate then chances of return becomes nill.

<Perhaps the big bang initially was intense and then it also slowed down may be the cause of latter
velocity differences.>

Yup. Did your subscription to Astronomy Magazine expire in 1979? Try this: http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/2004/12/text/

<There also may be another greater gravity shell outside our visible universe causing this effect. The balloon of larger gravity and cooled matter forming a shell of our universe and having lots of matter already there invisible to us? This can solve the acceleration part.>

Sure, dude. Let's just make stuff up as we go along. No problem. Why even bother trying to understand how this universe works when we can just pretend our own universe(s) into being? Sure saves trying to keep up with current events, let alone having to actually work to understand something just maybe a little closer to real? Or have you abandoned your search for Truth and are now looking for a good Fantasy.

No I do not subscribe to astronomy magazine or journal. Perhaps may be nice thing to read. I did read Mohr Dark Energy Survey and you are right that universe is at faster rate when it is farther. The dark energy concept a bit new to me as I can only see the some form of negative energy must exist where universe can return and get digested easily of that where from it was born some how.

The basic quest for Dark matter is interesting. I am still with Fermi levels and only up to near Liquid Helium temperatures. I will sure like to read some new work in the line. Yes, it is of great interest. I did not have much of assignments in near zero or below zero temperature so have no idea. I did read somewhere that dark energy is repulsive in nature. Even if that is true then you can not accelerate something that is not in the force field of accelerating zone. Perhaps the Dark matter concept is like similat pole electric or magnetic repulsion which can continue to very far levels. I have no idea of how far the dark matter itself is believed. I think this work is in its primitive state.

Thanks for reminding me the current status. This has never been my field of interest other than general interest once a while. I often used to take a nap in big bangs talks, and perhaps I will hear now some one who has done some serious work.

<Perhaps the Dark matter concept is like similat pole electric or magnetic repulsion which can continue to very far levels.>

And maybe it is not that at all, which is my whole point. Conjecture and speculation is fine, but if it does not issue from a solid grasp of basic principles, then what of substance does it contribute to Mankind's body of knowledge?

Nothing.

If you happened to be lost in the woods without a clear path out, would it help your situation to say "I'm going thataway because I happen to like the way the sunlight filters through the leaves in that direction?" Sure, you might find wandering "over there" to be personally satisfying, but does it get you out of the woods? These are pretty big woods, to say the least, and so once you're "over there" what do you do next? Pick another random direction based on its aesthetic appeal? Does that make any sense? Chances are if your life depended on your getting out of the woods, the odds of your making it out alive are, for all practical purposes, nil. You're gonna die there, Pal, so might as well make up your mind right now to fish that ragged compass out of your pocket and learn how to use it yourself. Who knows, maybe you'll blaze a path out of those woods to real understanding! A path that others can follow.

As it is, merely dabbling here and there and spouting groundless conjecture as you go along is no substitute for real understanding - no matter how appealing the conjecture. You might just as well leave your compass in your pocket and continue wandering at random. You can be certain that as long as you do so, I, for one, will most definitely not consider hiring you as my scout!

Baseless conjecture is not knowledge - not by a long shot - and you're still way deep in those woods. As are we all.

Yes, there is Taguchi way and perhaps all of us do that to some extent. If knowledge persists then there is no fun in doing that.

Can you tell me how an ant returns back home? It senses only smell so how does it know which way to go? If you are lost in the forest then the ant way is much better. Taguchi method does work. Perhaps it may take time and may not. It also depends on how important is the problem for you.

I agree with your point that it does not do any good to science when there is lot already known and something is done in Taguchi way. Good point. Science is not always for fun for all. I give you five points on that.

Ants sense "only" smell? There's a world of information in that smell. An encyclopedia contains "only" words.

Ants also sense heat, light, and vibration.

Ants leave pheromone trails. The pheromones dissipate over time. Ants sense the changes in pheromone concentration as a function of direction, as well as their own unique chemical signatures which they lay down as they move about. When they reach the distant end of the trail, all they have to do is turn around and follow it back. But not only is it a chemical trail which, by virtue of its presence, leads the way back home, ants also leave other chemicals behind to convey information about the purpose of the trial - whether it leads to food, a new nesting site, and so forth.

The ant analogy doesn't apply. Lost in the woods means lost in the woods. An ant on a trail is not lost. Sabe?

That is good thinking on ant's navigation theory I will say, even though it may not be the exact process. Number of ants on the path will sure cause more such change.

I created one trap for ants using cut onion, making a circle around the ants path with ant inside. They went many times here and there in the trap to search way for 10 minutes and after the added cent was gone they once again found their way.

Another good thing about the ant is that they go into sugar can going up and deep down. For their world to exit they can not sense the path they came from but they do come out if you shake the can. What is the logic they use as you said they have only smell as logic.

For this thread -

Do you think you will believe any other theory than the one you have read somewhere? If not than why do you wish any one to say any thing here? Scientists, who always twist their theory and they were doing so all the time right from ether theory to current dark matter theory, will again be doing so number of times. If you are comfortable with all that then you will never be confortable with some one who points at that up side down change.If you believe that the universe is ever expanding thing and perhaps one day it will get lost than, why do you ask for anything. Just beleive in that way. I am sure these people one day will say the other way out as I have said that there is likelyhood of ballooning but reversal, which may have already started. Your information source is so old (millions of light years) and what is happening now may be much different. If there is a possibility of some force field to act faster than light, then the information you are getting now may very well be currupt and misleading. There is nothing right or wrong in believing in one way or other.Do you trust to what you thing is a possibility? I think this forum is not right one to ask many questions that are placed here. They should be asked to people who are working in the field and perhaps they will tell that you that you need not beleive them as whatever they are proposing is only a model with what they have assumed. None can be sure of reality. They can change the model 180 degree phase if they think that fits in well. Does that come as shock to you?I am leaving this part of the discussion and will not enter again. Here neither you trust your intutive thinking, not that of others. It will also not help in real life in any way. It is rather a waste of time. If I beleive in something, I put it to test as well in real world. It is a way of life for me not to trust something I feel is not the right way. Perhaps others may feel just the opposit way and is all right with me.

What worries me a lot is that people do not trust their own mind and thinking process. They are blind followers in that case. I am not going to be one of that kind in my life. I will trust my mind even if it thinks the wrong way. We are all in virtual reality in any way. We have two ways to reach the same point in intutive logic. You keep saying that it is that way that and again say it is that way. other option is you say it not that way, not that way and again say it is not that way. One of the logic will remain and other will collapse. You have reached the final solution you looked for.

Hindues used this way in search of God. One group says God is one and another say God is two. Both will reach the same point finally. They took different paths, they tested different LOGICS and they reached one goal. You can also do so in science. Only you need to know your aim. Either you accept my point or go against it will make you reach only one point. That is all it is about.

I have lot other serious work pending. Bye for now.

<Do you think you will believe any other theory than the one you have read somewhere?>

And what theory might that be, Mr. Shyam?

Let's try something different: For a moment let's assume that your car breaks down. After work you get in your car and turn the ignition key, but nothing happens. All you know is that when you turn the key, the interior lights dim somewhat and you hear a single click coming from somewhere under the hood. But beyond that, nothing happens. So you take the car to a mechanic to get it fixed.

The mechanic begins by looking at the outside of your car, and then offers suggestion after suggestion as to what might be the problem: "Maybe it's out of petrol," or "Maybe a wire is loose," or "Maybe the injectors are dirty," or even "Maybe it was infiltrated by the Blue Meanies and now the car is too sad to start." He conjectures and speculates and proposes idea after idea, but doesn't actually look under the hood. Nor does he look to see if there's any fuel in the tank. He's got plenty of ideas, but he never seems to get beyond just having plenty of ideas.

After awhile your frustration mounts and, finally, you urge him to do something more about your car than guess at the problem. You urge him to test a few of his guesses. You even go so far as to suggest that the starter might be the problem. But instead of taking your suggestions under advisement as you expected, he retorts with, "Do you think you will believe any other theory about how cars work than the one you have read somewhere?" Or worse, "we are all in virtual reality anyway?"

Would you by this time have any faith in his competence as a car mechanic? Might you be thinking at this point that perhaps you should have taken your car elsewhere? To a mechanic who really knows cars and knows how to fix them? And who, when he doesn't understand the problem right away, takes the time to figure things out before announcing his prognosis? A mechanic who isn't afraid to dive right in and get his hands dirty? One who starts with "maybe" but doesn't also stop there?

Guest, imagine I am that useless car mechanic, sure as hell I am not going to open the bonnet, I am playing for time, my reality bubble has been burst. I would like to know how you managed to get the car to my garage. Did you get a tow? If it won't start, it must have got to the garage somehow, A lot of strange things have been happening, and I am starting to become nervous. Those men in black in that 1970's black sedan, all wearing dark sunglasses. I turned my back for just one second, then they were gone, simply vanished into thin air, now this guy suddenly appears on my forecourt in a car that he claims won't start at his office, yet inexplicably??...here it is?...Insolubles as Fallacies 'secundum quid et simpliciter'. I may find that old dusty book on philosophy useful, but it is hand written on parchment vellum, in Latin, and mine is a bit rusty. I may need a latin dictionary.

Great Scot, Carnegie! Do you ever inhale?

Sorry I got busy and was away from dark eyes, dark matter, dark energy, dark knowledge and dark theory (replace dark with black if you like). To answer your question I will ask you to think this way.

Think the solar system is very hot except for some far distant planet on which you are sitting as an ant. Now you put your Hubble telescope in the direction of each planet and find that father from you (closer to the sun) is moving faster. This is now your expanding universe. All Gallaxies actually may be moving across something and all expanding universe theory is only a virtual idea.

About the dark energy, I will say there is none. Energy is only energy and there is nothing dark about it. It is matter which usually absorbes and emits the energy. What is dark matter in any way. For dark matter or bright matter, I will like to say that matter is only a confined state of energy. It can trap more energy or can release energy.

It is not worth convincing the great scintists around so I will be away busy in small things that is of some use. I have planned to detect the particles within a Photon. I am working out to get that spin one of photon in my particles idea such that it makes some sense. I am not thinking of dark photons right now. I only like dark tea. Scientists make me mad as they have changed their minds so many times in just my 35 years of reading Physics. They will be doing so many more times in another few years as universe is expanding for them more rapidly. I am very sure they will not be happy with black and white for energy and matter and will give all colors to these things soon. NASA puts a lot of nice good looking pictures. If they get one artifect dot in their picture somewhere then they can compute a full gallaxy out of it and will also plant a story of black matter near by (just a chance) followed by few black holes and pulsers. In India also we have some people who call themselves big bang experts and they keep talking about all this most of the time. When they talk, I get good sleep. I do not want to belong to the dark matter world. This world is Ok for me for now.

Jorrie is perhaps teaching such things in the university and has good perpectives. I appreciate his thinking and will be sorry if he is hurt from my soft comments.

Time space, matter and energy are highly deceptive concepts and does not matter what you think about these, you still know very little about its construct. Something should be talked about to make a Physicist (I am not sure if it is a Physics any more).

I think the Hydrogen Plasma Fusion reactor news was real and something soon will appear for the mankind. It may also put us at greater risk as usual so more people should get involved in safe design and all over the world there may be a real change seen in next 3 decades.

There are two ladies helping my wife and they ask only US$5 per month. Such a poor country India is. Perhaps we have not yet reached the core of civilization and still very far from your current knowledge.

Shyam please allow me to digress a little, in my view all science will remain in a primitive state untill we learn how we think. The current consensus is that 'neurons' etc fire inside the skull grey matter. Then how come there are tens perhaps hundreds of thousands of perfectly normal intelligent people with no neurons to fire at all! They have NO BRAIN WHATSOEVER! just a few grams of skin filled with fluid.

Shyam You wrote in post #46 :- "Neuron puzzel was - if neuron has 1M Ohms resistance and there is 100 pF link pacacitance then message should have a response time of 10ms. How come millions of neuron fire and resolve the situation and come to some conclusion...." Please allow me to quote the late Professor of Neurology Dr. John Lorber's research, that I cited for you.

The student in question was academically bright, had a reported IQ of 126 and was expected to graduate. When he was examined by CAT-scan, however, Lorber discovered that he had virtually no brain at all.

Instead of two hemispheres filling the cranial cavity, some 4.5 centimetres deep, the student had less than 1 millimetre of cerebral tissue covering the top of his spinal column. The student was suffering from hydrocephalus, the condition in which the cerebrospinal fluid, instead of circulating around the brain and entering the bloodstream, becomes dammed up inside

Professor Lorber has identified several hundred people who have very small cerebral hemispheres but who appear to be normal intelligent individuals. Some of them he describes as having 'no detectable brain', yet they have scored up to 120 on IQ tests.

No-one knows how people with 'no detectable brain' are able to function at all, let alone to graduate in mathematics, but there are a couple theories. One idea is that there is such a high level of redundancy of function in the normal brain that what little remains is able to learn to deputise for the missing hemispheres.

Neuron are quantum memory storage devices and molecular frequency or their resonance is the information stored.

Large memory computers can store large data but also be very slow or at times confused to get the information. Smaller memory systems have less overhead and do a much better job in very short time. However, such systems optimize the information storage mechanism and have greater priority, easily aware of all that they have.

Thisk you have two room house and think you have two hundred room house. In which house you can easily recall the place where you kept the information. Only advantage with large house is that if you miss the key of two rooms you can sleep in any other 198 rooms. In small house you will have no place to enter. All computer programmer know that smaller program will work faster for them (real time). You also work on processing method that is much better. Like the Lady Shakuntala Devi or few more people from India who can solve faster than fastest computers can ever do are God's computers and future possiblities and proof of quantum mechanics and support for all those scientists right now not taken all that seriously. Maxwell committed suicide just for the reason, we all feel sorry for but never stop joking on statistical nature of the universe and God's plans. God is playing dice all the time. You can also play it within your own constraints and limits. Man can blow the earth or kep it safe.

In fact God may also be confused for having created such a big universe with only people to live on earth and when he/she thinks these are no good and full of worms and viruses, then he/she may be formating his/her hard disk once a while during big bangs.

Extracting the 23rd root of a 201 digit number in just 50 seconds is an impressive feat. Shakuntala Devi is not unique. I must re-assert Professor John Lorber's startling discovery. "No Detectable Brain Whatsoever" Nothing but cerebral fluid. Nix, Nowt, Nothing, not a single neuron. yet perfectly normal and highly intelligent. Thank you for reminding us of Shakuntala Devi's prodigious feat, it serves to remind us of human potential. We may make a series of logical inferences to reach a conclusion. "A chain of logical reasoning" but what if a naked fact reveals that one of the links in the chain is a single tenuous thread of spider's silk. "How strong is the chain?"

Someone once speculated that perhaps the brain is not the source of intelligence, but is rather more like a radio receiver, receiving knowledge from outside itself.

Perhaps neurons are merely tuning elements in a very sophisticated "receiver".

Perhaps these "elements" can be more widely distributed than we think:spinal column,etc.and can be recruited to function differently while still in the stem cell state.

POW's in WWII made a basic radio with a razor blade and and light bulb filament wire.

All improvements on the "cat whisker" radio have been to improve tunabiltiy, portablility, and fidelity.Yet it is possible to receive radio signals with the barest minimum of components.

Imagine what the analysis would have been by 17th century scientists if they had somehow stumbled onto a modern notebook computer, with a good battery.If they did not destroy it out of fear, they might assume that it had inherent intelligence, never suspecting that it was "programmed" by an outside source.Of course, when the battery was exhausted, they would say it has died.

Just the ramblings of a red neck.

Deep Thoughts Indeed.....Thread Master!.....Head of Neurology, Professor John Garthwaite, London Uni (an Old School Fellow) was astonished to discover that,

(a) A finals Exam and a London Marathon are energy equivalent

(b) Half the energy used in the brain is deployed maneuvering Sodium.... our brackish internal ocean.

Cell uses Sodium-Potassium pump for injecting blood fluid into cell using gate under process called cell transduction. and these gates are called channels in lipid membrane or cell casing. calcium. Chemical process is the slowest process. The electrical process is faster. If you have another process called Quantum fluid then that is the fastest and must have channels of bio molecules are quantum processors and very larhe wavefunction. I have no real idea of what can be the final best brain. Human brain cells are also found in fish, whale etc and perhaps we may think they are dumb but we may be utterly wrong.

Neuron are quantum memory storage devices and molecular frequency or their resonance is the information stored. You are just forgeting that we have 23-pairs of chromosomes in each cell, more powerful than brain as each cell has all information that can make us. Remember the tissue culture. We are not brain alone but present in every cell. These cells are wired in electrical and chemical net. I am not sure of who is controlling whom. This is also out of this discussion so will not like to give more ideas.

Large memory computers can store large data but also be very slow or at times confused to get the information. Smaller memory systems have less overhead and do a much better job in very short time. However, such systems optimize the information storage mechanism and have greater priority, easily aware of all that they have.

Thisk you have two room house and think you have two hundred room house. In which house you can easily recall the place where you kept the information. Only advantage with large house is that if you miss the key of two rooms you can sleep in any other 198 rooms. In small house you will have no place to enter. All computer programmer know that smaller program will work faster for them (real time). You also work on processing method that is much better. Like the Lady Shakuntala Devi or few more people from India who can solve faster than fastest computers can ever do are God's computers and future possiblities and proof of quantum mechanics and support for all those scientists right now not taken all that seriously. Maxwell committed suicide just for the reason, we all feel sorry for but never stop joking on statistical nature of the universe and God's plans. God is playing dice all the time. You can also play it within your own constraints and limits. Man can blow the earth or kep it safe.

In fact God may also be confused for having created such a big universe with only people to live on earth and when he/she thinks these people are no good and full of worms and viruses, then he/she may be formating his/her hard disk once a while during big bangs.

Perhaps the universe just wants to experience/know itself?

The last parragraph of a beautiful essay:-

Without knowing how I got there, I found myself back by the riverside near the Genbaku Dome. The lovers were gone, the benches empty. But I was not alone. I could sense the genbaku obake, the ghosts of the atomic dead, in the water below. They answered my mute question of the night before, not from darkness but from the leaf-dappled sunlight dancing on the flowing Motoyasu River. "We welcome the lovers, for they honor our lives. Monuments speak only of our death. Before Genshi Bakudan, we also sat by this river and dreamed of the future. Honor us now with resilient, exuberant life. A lover's kiss is a better memorial than all the crumbling cenotaphs and dusty museums. Eventually these buildings will disappear, and the bomb will become a dim and distant memory. But the lovers will always come, and we will be happy."

Chapters 1. Trinity 2. Hiroshima 3. Nagasaki 4. Kokura 5. Los Alamos
Download:
The Road from Trinity: Reflections on the Atom Bomb
PDF: 274K

I think before getting any answer for your question, we need to figure out what is beyond our universe. If it has any boundary at all,

Since space is the part of our universe so anything that is beyond universe can not be like space.

So what is that?

At the same time we can not say nothing is beyond its limits. Then we need to specify word nothing.

If we say universe is infinite then how can we say universe is the creation of big bang few billions of years back. Since billions of years are finite. How universe can expand to infinite size in finite years.

When some one says big bang created universe that does not mean universe did not exist before that. Big bang simply less about an event in the universe that created type of material we see now.

Limit of the universe is where we can not reach by any means using whatever resources we have.

Another universe can well be withing our universe as we have no way to know about it. Once you know about it then it becomes your universe. Universe is your knowledge. You define the limit including the infinity. If you use an eight digit calculator then any number that can not fit in is infinity. There is no place like infinity in the space. It is the limit to know about the space. Space may be inside out or outside in or in any shape. We know what we can experience. If we have some other tools then we may know things differently. Scientists now work on Models or their own thoughts written in mathmatical equantions that give shape to the universe that could be and not what is. Each of us is looking for the next step hunting for more ideas. We find black hole or dark matter or black energy or whatever we can imagine. There is world within a smallest particle as there is a construct in its time and space. Can you reach there? If not then there is another universe in each particle and we are also make of universes and structure of universes. Universe definition is not in big or small but in the limits to know. Our knowledge is the universe in which think we are.

I hope it makes some sense to you. There is not one infinity either. You can draw as many infinity you want from an infinity and yet it remains infinity. The universe is virtual as well as real. It is virtual because whatever you can think or feel about it, it is not that way. It is real because you can feel it in some way and gives you an identity of reality.

Vedic thinkers called it MAYA or confusion and yet it is a real stuff. The matter is born the form of you to know about itself and will return back to itself which is matter or nothing. No one knows why. You are the universe so you should know if not today then some time latter. Universe itself has greater knowledge can tell you about itself and is like God talking to you. Intercations generates harmonics and are knowledge or information and cause of further knowledge. Big bang is knowledge and fabricates matter like engineers do. It is God's factory and one in your universe. You have to ask God if has many other Universes to handle and if God can reveal that to you. What other options you have? God sent you here to live happy and to care for others and not to build nukes. However, it looks that God has changed his initial idea.

As Jorrie so eloquently and patiently explained in #13"

"Further, we know from measurement that our observable universe has a finite size and that it is expanding. What happens on the other side of that observable horizon, we don't know, except that it appears as if there is much, much more of the same thing...."

The only bone I have to pick with that statement is "there is much, much more of the same thing....". Since we have no proof of that statement, it might not be "the same thing": it may in fact be variable on a long time scale.If so, the variablility may have an effect on our known universe.These effects could possibly be misinterpreted as being generated from within our universe.(Dark energy, dark matter?) I am not arguing against DM or DE, merely thinking: "What if "

His explanation forever changed my concept of "infinite universe." Someone else also said (Einstein, perhaps?) that:

"Once a mind has been stretched to accept a new idea or concept, it can never shrink back to it's original size."

His very excellent illustration with the Infinite Lattice has also had a very positive effect on my thinking processes.

As a matter of fact, nearly every post has given me an enhanced perspective on my own existence.

I now define infinite as limited only by our imagination.We have a definite knowledge horizon, beyond which we cannot see or know, and the only thing powerful enough to escape the pull of that black hole of ignorance is imagination.(I do not use the word ignorance here as a derogatory term, I merely mean "lack of knowledge")

All theories are born almost naked, wrapped up in "What if", and as they mature from infancy and speculation, they are challenged in their "teen" years by facts from emperical data.If the two agree, the teen matures into a full feathered theory, supported by experimental results and verifiable repeatable data.

Sometimes the supporting data comes very late, and as a result, some ideas are thrown out with the bath water.

Anyway, I do not disregard anyone's theory out- of-hand, for of such things are sometimes born tomorrow's great discoveries.

We are constantly learning, and as long as we do, our knowable universe is expanding. Knowledge, however is not the same as wisdom.

Knowledge is everywhere.

Wisdom is very rare.

I personally pray for wisdom.

The most funny thing in knowledge is that, we can imagine 100 possibilities for the one universe and what now may not even belong to any of those possibilities. It is like you try to spill color on paper and get an image each time in different shape and all are possible and none identical. Hence, concluding on one image of the universe will be as good as looking at one picture.

It is well known for Hindu's that their women or men when concentrated their mind, they could generate flame out of their body and burm themselves using inner power. This you can see any time in Budhist demo drying out ice dipped cloth in just few minutes if placed on their body. You can see steam coming out. Power of the mind is only that much as much you can discover it. Some part of it is intutive and other is discovered out of need or by generating need. Best think to do scince is to look inwards.

As I have said before, that every interaction is knowledge. To know any material something should hit that and bring back added harmonics to its own known identity and then again generate another set of harminics in your knowledge system to be part of your knowledge. Knowledge of the universe is in identical way. We have short and long memories, and so the universe has all that. We have mechanism to regenerate harminics to use knowledge and the universe has it in same way and with much greater. We do small things using our knowledge, and universe does very big things using its knowledge. We get born, live and die and so the universe as a whole experiences the same. However, rebirth is almost there for us as well as for the universe. We are not just humans but everything else in the universe as part of it or everything. We belong to it and we are just it. As long as our knowledge is limited, we will know only that much. Universe is driven by chance theory and all its possibilities likely to take shape as events spread over time. In fact time itself has no identity but created by the universe for itself to differentiate or is an embedded property of the universe. Space is dynamic and time gets its own definition from number of forms the universe can have. If one form comes first than the other and the first sets the time for the other as you can see the first first and use its appearance as time. What else the time can be. If you exist for ever in same form and do not require anything to live and do not age then you biological time will zero or infinite which ever way you wish to look at it. You can not even use your mind and nothing will change inside, including thoughts. That is what people do in meditation, to slowdown biological clock to near zero and retain only something that can restart some time later. It is drastic power down of the body and you can live to thousands of years. Hindu's have always talked about it and it is very common knowledge even today in Hindu's. In fact all people on the earth have same capability. the Vedic literature which was only mental work clearly states that, I teach you all this and now it is a starting point for you and you have to discover yourself hereafter using your own power. Knowledge is an inner experience. I feel much better to read from inside than from biiks by some one even though biiks are like life movie of some one you see in few hours, which experience is not posible by looking inside. One great difference if that we can find something that is not seen as possibility by others. All thinkers are just doing this. It is their life. For some they read what others think.

We are one of many possibilities and so is the universe. Black or white matter, it is something you are trying to know more about your house each day. After we have satisfactory life, you can do all this to know where you are and why. Two women and two men who come to work at my home, think only to get some little extra to have better life. They have no time for all this and their universe in very very small. Free mind discovers greater universe for itself.

Hi HiTekRedNek, thanks for the compliments.

Your: "The only bone I have to pick with that statement is "there is much, much more of the same thing....". " may be a valid 'bone', since the data for my statement is sparse.

However, observation right to our observable horizon shows dynamics that agree with similar densities on the other side of the horizon than this side. In fact, it appears as if those remote areas are also in the center of their 'observable universes', with everything moving away from everything else (talking large scales).

So, in very simplistic 2 dimensional terms, it is like dropping a pebble into water, and the "crests" of the concentric waves that are formed are the "knowledge horizons" of each universe?Is that a plausable interpretation?

Thanks Jorrie

Dear Jorrie

That the water is there is known by waves (sound or electromagnetic). No interaction, no knowledge and limited universe within your limited knowledge. If you find a way to have knowledge billions of light years away then you are just interacting with something there (today or tommow). Communication or an interaction is a must. Open frame one sided communication is OK (but it is nearly impossible). After communication another communication starts that something was communicated to some one and becomes a knowledge to someone else. This process becomes weak and near zero knowledge for us. Then everything becomes free or non interacting or dumb. God is not dumb so there is limit to the universe else universe will vanish for ever. Universe vanishing within itself is permitted as kinetic energy can change to potential energy to 100% level. Reversal process can bring back to the same state. Nature's paintings are never identical even though some shapes emerge identical. It will be wonderful if we can have two such separate events like big bang and get different matter with some identical signatir. Think of electrons with different mass or charge than what we have or light at different velocity.

Hi HiTekRedNek, your pebble dropped into water would not be a good analogy, I think. The problem is that an observer in the center (where the pebble dropped) would observe a different pattern of waves than an observer on one of the crests.

It is more like Jack being on a ship on the open ocean, in the center of his 'observable ocean'. Jill, on another ship near Jack's observational horizon, views herself as also in the center of her 'observable ocean', obviously overlapping somewhat with Jack's, but stretching much farther from Jack.

We obviously do not have an observer "Jill" near the horizon of our observable universe, but we can learn something by studying how 'Jill's ship' behaves, so-to-speak. I suppose, if Jill could spot an edge, like in "here be dragons", she would have behaved differently than when she just spotted open ocean!

It is true that the universe expands, but this does not change the situation on the short term at all.

Dear Jorrie

Yes, there are forms of the same thing caused by the samething. Yes it is hard to get to the core of the formation of the things at the first place. All things after that can be easily said. One can start that things are some how there and they change forms and key is hidden in each and everything. This may not be a unreasonable point but says nothing serious about the construct. Hence, most of the people start at observable identity, direct of indirect information, which all easily understand.

Then comes what we will like to beleive in and not what it is or it may be. Constructing ideas on such an old history itself starts with what might has been and not what is. As we are looking at some other time point in current time, we are taking ourselves back in time that too in real time.

Yes, the most complex thing is the negative energy and perhaps anti-matter world. These can cause big bang and two universes of such types were together. If big bang event is considered to be one event then that universe is within our universe and part of its own oscillations or larger events.

"The emerging field of "exponential asymptotics" is not a branch of pure mathematics in pursuit of beauty (though some of the ideas are aesthetically charming) but a matter of bloody and unyielding engineering necessity." John P. Boyd, "The Devils Invention, Asymptotic Super-asymptotic and Hyper-asymptotic Series"

Compare Vibrations in a crystal:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon

And Reidar Finsrud's Chaos Pendulum Perpetuum Mobile.

Chaotic pendulums & gravity waves? where is the energy derived from? (hidden battery and the Reidar Finsrud is a bounder? I doubt it)

Pound and Rebka received a lot of ridicule for postulating a model that was inconsistent with conservation of energy. "Where did it go?" Perhaps the Universe is more gigantic that we can possibly imagine, perhaps 'Gravity' or Gravity Waves' are 'Pushing' in from all directions. Sir Isaac Newton was uncertain which way the force operated and said so clearly. Are we all being like the proverbial Ostrich? blinkered by our own fear so bury our heads in the sand?

Universe is not expanding as one body into something that can build pressure. Hence, pressure analogy is misleading. Velocity acquaired alone can give direction and it says nothing about pressure. When we do nuclear blast, the air carry pressure wavefront. There is no such thing in the expanding universe as we are not talking of any pressure withing the matter geometry. Vacuum makes material to flow into vacuum due to pressure from outside and not due to vacuum itself. Vacuum is not a force of any kind. We are talking about dispersed matter in space having velocity and nothing on its way to make any serious change. The effect of the gravity should have been larger initially and as matter moves away from each other, the gravity pull will decrease. Effect of gravity on the moving away matter is of two types. One that can pull back into the system and one that allows things to move out under escape velocity. If space is expanding or time is slowing down for us gives us identical perception.

For those want to know more about black holes and hidden matter, can look at this nice info by NASA. It also gives an idea of how to see then through high energy x-ray emission that is caused by matter gaining energy in the gravitational pull by the singularity space of the black hole.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l2/black_holes.html

Shyam, 'Pull' ?

Larry Pye, nuclear engineer said; "I found your Push Gravity Space Museum more fascinating than Lawrence Hall of Sciences, the Exploratorium, the Smithsonian and San Francisco's Academy of Science."

Mark Aumann, newscaster said; "I found your Push Gravity Space Museum more interesting than any tour at NASA's Cape Canaveral."

Dr. F.T. Doubler said; "I can't remember hearing a more interesting presentation than yours in Denver, at the 6th Annual Global Science's Congress."

Hal Hoberecht, teacher said; "I learned more about our universe in one hour than all the science books and college couses I had."

Los Angeles Times; "Over the past decade, repulsive force has regained some support among scientists who see it as a key to solving major cosmic mysteries." (Wright says the repulsive force is the 'KEY' to his Push Gravity theory.)

US Senator Charles H. Percy wrote the following in his letter dated August 13th, 1980; "Mr. Wright, I thinky our idea is great and I do think someone should listen to you."

Mr. Sylvan Wall, retired science teacher, after a tour through Wright's Push Gravity Space Museum wrote; "I wish I had these models available when I taught school."

Repulsive gravity force alone will make the universe to expand for ever. Matter is always bonding type going towards energy reduction for lowest space. Once the lowest permitted limit is reached, it looks for stability and get quantized. Repulse force will never do any such wonders.

I have experienced the gravity tunnel pendulum perhaps in Sanfrancisco city having a bridge like structure and moving mass around and it really shaken my body and I experienced fear that I may fall off the bridge. It was some kind of museum and a wonderful experience.

For fighter aircraft pilots the G is real push and makes the head empty of blood supply.

Shyam, You made reference to 'Maya'[the causality of the material illusion] She is an expansion of Maha Vishnu, All expansions of Vishnu, even ourselves, are by nature 'infinite' Namastee

Namaste and greetings.

We are knowledge and we are part of the universe or maya. The knowledge part is real in current form else we not assemble and regenarate. This capability or this knowledge is part of the universe itself. and derived from it. Vishnu or is the power that retains it for the time anything lives.

The eternal source of Energy or shakti is the form of us and universe, as MAYA

Created by LOGIC or rules or laws, material and information, as Brahma

Sustained by balance for forces or helping power against destruction, as Vishnu

Return back to the original form by Internal and External LOGIC and power, as Shiva

Those four forms were identified as governming body for the universe and other creation within it. Time was understood as eternal clock watching all things to happen along with it. creation and destruction is like a point on a moving wheel which goes up and down under motion or you can think it as a pendulum.

Our being is an experience a real one in unreal universe. Maya is real but it is an illusion that we experience. Whatever it is, it matters to us all and hence, feel it and live it rather than reject it. You lose nothing here and hence not to worry of losing anything including life. You can come back if you wish. You are enternal and this is only a form of your experience and not what you are. You sometime think your hand is you and when some one loses it does not use the self. Some time person loses more and others think one is dead. This is because we have no way to know beyond.

Greetings to you Shyam Prabhu....Dandavats,

India is a treasure store house of wisdom, as Henry David Thoreau wrote:-

" In the morning I bathe my intellect in the stupendous and cosmogonal philosophy of the Bhagavad-gita, in comparison with which our modern world and it's literature seem puny and trivial."

Or the Great American Essayist, Ralf Waldo Emerson, who wrote:-

" I owed a magnificent day to the Bhagavad-gita. It was the first of books; it was as if an empire spoke to us, nothing small or unworthy, but large, serene, consistent, the voice of an old intelligence which in another age and climate had pondered and thus disposed of the same questions which exercise us."

Gita is just a fore-taste of this stupendous library....It is 'Awesome beyond comprehension' in my view. A final thought, Brahma or Visnu lacks nothing, but still desires what is yet to gain, our Bhakti or pure love. Bless all at CR4 may your thoughts always dwell on truth.

Perhaps in another Brahma Year we will understand.

Or not. What does it matter, our understanding, except to ourselves?

The universe will function all the same whether we understand it or not.

We desire to understand in order to know our place in the universe, and by such knowledge to elelvate our importance.

To the contrary, I believe that further knowledge, if it increases our wisdom as well, will result in our seeing ourselves as less important on an individual scale, but more valuable on a grander scale.

A single errant dust mote during the formation of our universe could have an effect not seen for billions of years, in the orbits of planets and stars and moons not yet formed. Yet if you look at a single dust mote, it is apparently nothing.

A single water molecule in a cloud is insignificant, yet the cloud as a whole brings life giving water to the desert or a deluge or flood at other times and places.A giver and a taker.One is no better or worse than the other.The same molecule of water has particpated in many cycles of give and take.

We are part of the ebb and flow of the great life force of the universe.

I for one, can enjoy it more by simply accepting the gift, and not trying to peel the onion to the core.

May you gain wisdom with your knowledge, and peace and joy with your wisdom.

(exit 0)

HTRN

The spoon is not real.

Spoon is real for you. You are in its time frame. It was not real and it is not going to be real. All will be left over as an idea of information about a spoon in the universe from where it can be rediscovered by others in its new form. Do you think any of the information today will have any sense 20000 years later and we are talking about billion light years time span in this forum. Think about it and tell me how much you or others know about just part 20000 years ago? What people are discovering out is assembling the idea or capability embedded in us as part of the knowledgeable universe else we should have been without brain from another millions of years as food for others. Don;t you remember that Jesus said that you eat my body as bread and you drink wine which is my blood and you are my sheep to who is giften my knowledge. That is universe talking to you and gifting you ideas generated by itself. He also told that the path of truth is too narrow and there is chance that you may fall into the lurking sea, if you don't learn to walk on that narrow rope of truth with proper balancing act of wisdom. How come no one tells you that this world is real and yet we learn this world as real. Just because you can see of feel it, you think it is real? Then a movie on screen should also be real to you. My mother's mother who was there in my house in my childhood always thought that there is another women in opposit house immitating her acts and wondered why she was doing so. She was looking at my very large mirror and had no real idea of that wall size mirror. We are all looking at the world in mirror and get wrong ideas. Something gives some idea to us of reality. This text you are reading is real but do you think it has anything in it other than what you otherwise already can understand. Your understanding is real and this is a link to that from unreal world forming a real idea in you. There is nothing wrong in believing or not believing as there is no excape from this dream unless we are dead. I have no idea of the next other than we remain as universe to come back again somewhere in some form. We may become many or may become part of giant stuff or are part of the giant stuff which otherwise also we are. Why are you separating when you are not separating all that living stuff is in you in million numbers, alive, regerating, facing death each second. Can you live without all that? Hence, universe can't be without us all including that is a living universe and that is not a living matter of the universe. In fact there is life to everything in MAYA but not to MAYA itself. MAYA is for ever. MAYA can change its form by its rules set by itself and can be in silence or condensed from invisible to all or spread over everywhere form and again invisible to all. It is up to MAYA to come back in whatever form it want to be and if it makes us then we can be happy in it. We are only idea or information and hence we also live for ever like MAYA, but we are not MAYA. we are like computer program not written anywhere but to be embedded in the rules of MAYA. Our formation is called the wish of the God and God can use MAYA. God is rule so we can say we are almost like God if we do everything God does. That is what each Holly person will also say. I am not asking you to beleive in anything and this is just my idea and my understanding of myself and the universe and God. My understanding tells me that the mind can reach billion times faster to knowledge than what we can acquire using speed of light. God should have that power to manage the universe else the idea of God will have no value. What one feels and what one can see may differ considerably. Hence, world has to take more pains to understand what one can think in one's dream very easily. I dream and I also do little bit of experiments. Eating food is one experiment all of us do each day and know its value as truth to life. Real or unreal, we want to live more in present form and present idea with fear of next form or entry into the next idea after this life, where we have to enter one day for sure.

Pressure in expanding universe is to be clearly understood.

There is no real wall to form pressure and only kinetic energy is pressure.

If we look in reverse way from farthest to us then universe looks slowing down and we are moving slower or retarted. This also means that we are near Horizon of the the Universe.

Think of universe formation like a sparkling flower pot that you blow as fire cracker and a jet comes out of it gussing fast. You are on top of it and every thing that is away from you is moving fast. A singulat point which fabicates and throws out gallaxies after gallaxies from same point and your's milky way was done some time ago.

This can explains we feel that things near us are slower. However, this can not explain why entire universe is at almost same temperature unless it was formed almost at the same time and with almost similar material. This point is very important and is a known fact which we all can see. Unfortunately, what we see now is what travelled to us by now, so will have no idea of the temperature difference that exist now or the universe the way is now.

When we think about the universe, we think of it of today. The information or spectrum we have from farther universe differs in time domain a lot. Does photon in such a time domain has a phase change or energy retardation or split of itself is not known. We can beleive that nothing has happened to the photons and they are purest form of information except of some small bunch getting affected due to matter on the way. The light spectrun from the farthest gallaxies has greater chance of being affected and so is what we see in the spectrum. However, if from many sides, we find many objects with similar spectrum then that theory fails and Hubbel's observation is real smething. Hubbel data has been debated and hence, there is little chance of anything being overlooked and explanation can be trusted unless something else becomes known to us.

There are too many unknowns and only one known spectrum that comes to us. Perhaps, if we find few objects that differ in size and spectrum may shade better light and will generate new thinking.

Work on the spectrum of ours and its final shape after billions of light years later reaching to the farthest today. Is it same what we get from there?

How about the knife and fork?

I have to defer to Shyam's greater experience on these matters, but check out:-

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/pdf/106462main_map_facts.pdf

The COBE 'anisotropy' data. Our Milky Way is moving through the Microwave Background Radiation 'MBR' at a paltry 600 KPH. Passenger jets fly faster. I would love to measure the speed of every Galaxy through the MBR, and would not be at all surprised if we were not the only slow-coaches. Indeed speeds much greater could be an exception.

The cat is well out of the bag and Professor Schroedinger is never going to get it back in that box of his. I think the Big Bang started inside that box of his. and it was a damn angry cat that emerged at that. ...Half Blown to bits,

Check out Cartoon Physics on Wikipedia, it's the only way to describe quantum Physics.

Christopher Columbus thought he could reach India going either west or east. He was both right and wrong. Our differences are just that way. Have you looked at the boiling water in a pot. Our universe is boiling and not going any where. It is just moving here and there it itself and a horizon created by itself. If you think it is otherwise then what is that I can say more. I feel the world should be that way and not that I know it is that way. If you know better then let me hear from you.

Veda preach that God's can not know the origin of the universe as it was created before Gods were created by the Adi Shakti and Param Bramha or the eternal creator. Gods actually were not men but the power that governs the rules of the universe. These rules have forms and people are just trying to look at these forms and are also concluding that they know everything.

Why don't smart folks consider that the universe has no center and no edge?

Did anyone consider that the tiny part of the universe we can observe seems to behave differently depending on what direction we observe it?

If the speed of acceleration of those distant objects is the same no matter where we look is it reasonable to think that we are near the center and the point of origin?

Is it reasonable to think that we are in an area of contraction and the variation of velocity by distance is due to local effect and the red shift is due to other astrophysical effects?

Does anyone ever wonder how the heat generated in the supposed confined/finite universe has not burned everything up by now?