Previous in Forum: Honda CR-V 2.2 2007 (57) alarm problem   Next in Forum: Running at 1,000,000 RPM
Close
Close
Close
14 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Commentator

Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 88

The First Muscle Car?

05/13/2009 7:57 AM

Would it be possible to put a disc of synthetic muscle tissue on the top of a piston in a model car engine, activate this contractile polymer stuff to expand and contract and move the piston up and down, and create the first vehicle powered by muscle tissue? If a bird can fly 7,145 miles non-stop after eating only a small pile of seeds, is it because muscle tissue is incredibly efficient, or is it because the seeds have a huge amount of energy stored in them? I realize that these birds will use up a lot of body mass also, but the best electric model airplane with the best battery, the best motor, the best aerodynamics, the lightest, strongest materials, and the best propeller will probably only make it a couple of miles before the battery would be dead. So what's going on?

Bar-tailed Godwit

Whooping Crane #814

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#1

Re: The First Muscle Car?

05/13/2009 8:15 AM

And the source of power for the muscle movement is what, exactly?

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Borrego Springs
Posts: 2636
Good Answers: 62
#2
In reply to #1

Re: The First Muscle Car?

05/13/2009 8:52 AM

The link makes vague reference to "chemical or electrical" stimulus?

__________________
"If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#6
In reply to #2

Re: The First Muscle Car?

05/13/2009 11:01 AM

Coreless electrical motors are the way to go, then, rather than synthetic muscle. They are available starting at £20GBP.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Old Salt Hobbies - CNC - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rosedale, Maryland USA
Posts: 5197
Good Answers: 266
#3
In reply to #1

Re: The First Muscle Car?

05/13/2009 9:38 AM

Bird seed

__________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty, pristine body but rather to come sliding in sideways, all used up and exclaiming, "Wow, what a ride!"
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Biomedical Engineering - Radiation Oncology Engineering Hobbies - Fishing - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member Hobbies - Hunting - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Biology - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CT
Posts: 267
Good Answers: 1
#8
In reply to #1

Re: The First Muscle Car?

05/14/2009 7:04 AM

electric eels

__________________
“Sometimes we don't even realize what we really care about, because we get so distracted by the symbols.” ? Tom Wolfe, The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#4

Re: The First Muscle Car?

05/13/2009 10:05 AM

I'm sorry, but as desirable as it is, the flying car will simply never be practical.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Borrego Springs
Posts: 2636
Good Answers: 62
#5
In reply to #4

Re: The First Muscle Car?

05/13/2009 10:13 AM

Having seen the streets, I don't want to have to spend my time looking up, too.

I think the flying car may be less desireable than it was for me.

__________________
"If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - Ancient Weapon Enthusiast United States - US - Statue of Liberty - Viva la Revolucion!

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: In the dark, somewhere in Arizona
Posts: 632
Good Answers: 15
#12
In reply to #5

Re: The First Muscle Car?

05/14/2009 6:44 PM

with the standards of vehicle maintenance being what they are you wouldn't need to look up... the constant dripping of oil from above would clue you in...

It's bad enough having to clean bird drips off the window...

__________________
Education is not preparation for life; life itself is education.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Active Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14
Good Answers: 1
#7

Re: The First Muscle Car?

05/14/2009 6:20 AM

Hm. Actually, birds can fly long-distances non-stop by gliding and making use of air currents. They only occasionally need to flap their wings. Their light-weight constructions and advanced low-drag aerodynamics are the key factor, not the fact that they get their power from food+muscles vs other power source+other motor. To different extents, birds fly 'smart', not 'hard' (those who don't are not long range). Also, long-range birds are underpowered relative to their weights, slow, and not particularly crash-worthy (of course, they neither carry passengers nor crash), which makes them a poor choice to model even the most modestly-spec'ed car after.

Regarding the car idea, at least some vehicle-related embodiments of your concept are time-proven and already in use. Bicycles, tricycles, toy cars for kids etc: conversion of muscle energy into wheel rotation.

But why synthetic (how?) muscle tissue etc? This sounds too forward-thinking for our current level of technology to be practical: i.e. 'fluidic muscles' etc rely on pumps for power, which must in turn be powered by conventional rotating motors, so why apply so many energy conversions in the first place (a typical koyote mechanism!*), since rotation is what we're after?

Nice food for thought, but I don't think we've actually 'got something' here. Cheers!

*remember the road-runner cartoon?

__________________
-however, relying mostly on just a developed sense of smell, it is quite possible that I am missing something here
Register to Reply
Power-User
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Biomedical Engineering - Radiation Oncology Engineering Hobbies - Fishing - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member Hobbies - Hunting - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Biology - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CT
Posts: 267
Good Answers: 1
#9
In reply to #7

Re: The First Muscle Car?

05/14/2009 7:09 AM

Here is a link to some info on plastic muscle. It really is quite interesting stuff. I believe it was first made in a Stamford University for porfit off-shoot a few years ago. It shows some promise for artificial limbs and other applications

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/12/051216185231.htm

__________________
“Sometimes we don't even realize what we really care about, because we get so distracted by the symbols.” ? Tom Wolfe, The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 940
Good Answers: 28
#11
In reply to #9

Re: The First Muscle Car?

05/14/2009 10:08 AM

In the early '90's, I was working on a project to develop a self-contained, remotely located, intrinsically safe industrial valve control, aimed at the cross-country natural gas pipeline system that was being designed and constructed at the time. We, two of us, were able to get a section of synthetic muscle to play with but my cheap-ass company, with no forward thinking, wasn't interested in developing pneumatic valving using that material. Instead, with the help of Clippard Valves developing their intrinsically safe model for us (their local rep was their retired Vice President), we were able to produce systems, although not self-contained. That was the part of the project I was working on when I had to leave for family reasons in 2000.

I remember applying an extremely small current, a couple of microamps, and frying some of the silicone strips. It would have taken a large amount of the "fibers" to produce the range of movement we were looking for but it would have been fun trying.

__________________
Nothing exceeds like excess.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Globaly - very close to the southern most point of Canada
Posts: 445
Good Answers: 12
#10

Re: The First Muscle Car?

05/14/2009 8:31 AM

Well.... if you want to push some out-of-the-box thinking you shouldn't stop there. Considering you want to use synthetic muscle tissue, why bother converting it to mechanical energy via an engine?

For that matter, why not just genetically breed giant birds and ride them like horses.

Or you could "Jurassic Park" yourself a pterodactyl and strap a cockpit to it's back. If Fred Flinstone can fly like that then why can't we?

(sorry... I'm feeling sarcastic today)

BUT.... I do remember reading about small robots (fit in a teaspoon) using this type of mechanism for movement. Both walking and flight.

__________________
-why bother doing it wrong when it will be anyway.......
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 88
#13

Re: The First Muscle Car?

05/15/2009 12:29 AM

Bicycles and tricycles have already been invented; I thought the idea was to come up with something new. Genetically breeding giant birds takes a long time and would be impractical. And we all know what happened with Jurassic Park. But thanks for your suggestions, escpecially the good ones. Propelling a vehicle with muscle tissue is certainly not practical, yet, and I doubt that it will be beating a 426 hemi any time soon. However, there are applications were it may prove to be useful, and I've never heard of anyone converting the linear contractions of synthetic muscle tissue into a rotational power source. There is some merit in doing something for the first time. It doesn't require pumps, or any other power source other than electricity, and apparently requires only microamps to fire. Using an electric eel to power synthetic muscle tissue - now there's an idea I like. Birds do fly smart, but 7,145 miles non-stop still takes a lot of flapping on a very limited power source. And think of the durability. We all get muscle pains now and then, but if you consider the amount of work those muscles perform over the years without repair, it's pretty amazing. And then there's marathon runners, weightlifters, athletes, etc. Can an electric motor deadlift 1,100 pounds using the elctrical output of a plate of spaghetti? Think about the complexity of a combustion engine compared to a simple slab of electroactive polymers. There's very little heat produced. No pollution. No vibration. If a small slab of this stuff could turn a crankshaft at all, how much power could be produced by a 100 square foot chunk of it? Thanks for all the comments - I enjoyed reading them, and I hope you enjoyed thinking about them. Hmmmmm. I wonder what would happen if you hooked up an electric eel to a KERS unit...

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - Ancient Weapon Enthusiast United States - US - Statue of Liberty - Viva la Revolucion!

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: In the dark, somewhere in Arizona
Posts: 632
Good Answers: 15
#14
In reply to #13

Re: The First Muscle Car?

05/15/2009 12:43 AM

if you consider the amount of work those muscles perform over the years without repair

Not to be too overly pedantic... muscle tissue is constantly being repaired in the body. The way we get stronger is to tear and then repair muscle tissue (of course you can take this too far... torn loose is no good)

Having said this, assuming you can work out the kinks you should be able to create an adaptive engine which can transition from fast twitch to slow twitch performance characteristics giving you high speed or high torque depending on the muscle... though I would be more then just a little impressed if you solve the problems with this...

How about giant mutagenic flying squirrels? Plusher then the avian options and less messy 'exhaust'... of course they would need to 'fly' by 'leaps and bounds'... and when you're not flying your squirrel you can put it to use on the hamster wheel generating electricity...

Great brain stimulation, thanks for posting the idea

__________________
Education is not preparation for life; life itself is education.
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 14 comments
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (1); edignan (2); gdevine (1); hairlesssimian (2); Jaguar (1); ozzb (1); ponti(fe)x (1); PWSlack (2); rlindey (2); route89 (1)

Previous in Forum: Honda CR-V 2.2 2007 (57) alarm problem   Next in Forum: Running at 1,000,000 RPM

Advertisement