Problems Raising pH to an Acceptable Level

Let's see, High water table feeds a well that supplies an in ground pool with water.

Water saturated with chemicals (groundwater) feeds your pool makeup source?

You might want to consider a pre-conditioner for your pool feedstock.

Florida?

Had pools for 30 years in sub-tropical climate and can not fault your advice - GA

An excellent reply I must say Milo!

I've often had better results using liquid clorine for Shocking as it is already liquid and definitely contains no chalk or other filler as some granulated clorine does

Thanks Milo,

I am out of town for a few days but will try to improve my pool quality when I return. Is there unstabized chlorine products in granular/tablet form I can use or is liquid chlorine my only option? I operate the pool pump 6-8 hrs daily. The challenge I have with adding more soda ash, before doing anything else is my brain tells me the PH will not increase from prior experiences. My wife thanked you for your help, but did not sign in as ID Clark but Guest.

ID Clark

Calcium hypochlorite is a powder option, but it can also add to calcium hardness.

I bought a big bucket of Lithium Hypochlorite at a going out of business sale, a couple of summers ago. it is expensive but no other side effects that I know of.

As another poster commented, unscented liquid bleach is sodium hypochlorite.

The problem with this is that it is heavier than water, so it will sink to bottom of deep end and lord help you with your printed vinyl liner... so add slowly with pump running and stir the bottom up often.

Here are some additional facts about free chlorine anc cyanuric acid stabilizer.

http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-water-chemistry-t628.html

The reason why we need a little bit of stabilizer in out door pools os to preserve the chlorine in sunlight. but too much works against the chlorine as the charts will show.

I'm traveling to Ft.Rucker Alabama to give away my 2nd Lt daughter's hand to another 2nd Lt. I'll be back next week as well.

Thanks to you and your wife for the follow up.

until next week.

milo

Sure there are tablet and granular form of un stabilised chlorine chemical. It is calcium hypochloride, %70 available chlorine content. It has granular, big tablet and small tablet forms. They are not slow soluable like threechloro isocyanuric acid tablets so you can use it as chock chlorination or like dichloroisocyanurate granules. You can not use it to dozage your pool as you do it bu TCICA tablets. For this it has its own dispenser that lets pool water chlorinate continously. You better do not stop the pool motors unless you apply alum flucalant. If you are using TCICA or DCICA you better use polyaliminium with polymer fluculant. You need to check your alcalinity high enoug to form the flocks because TCICA and SDCIC does not have any alcalinity chemical like Calcium hypo or sodium hypo. You have to be carefull not to be over 20 ppm cyanuric acid in order to prevent chlorine block and wrong mesuarments. Tropical climate water loss by evapuration is usually high so CA will increase very fast. Keep the pool around clean. If possible use pool cover when its not in use for a long time. If you will not use the pool over 4 months, if your regulation permits add winter care additives. Link that is given is wonderfull, every pool owner should have it under his hand.

Hope this would help.

I only use 3 chemicals and never have a green pool. Add your chlorine/shock, the first step is to kill the green stuff. I usually do this by adding the shock and some PH+. When the green stuff is gone the water is usually a little "mirky". Add a filter clarifier to your skimmer and this will clear the pool up. I don't even test until the pool is crystal clear. Keep it circulating like you would normally through the season. When your chlorine level has come done to just above the target level, test the Ph and add if necessary. If your PH is acceptable your chlorine will stay in the pool.

Some recommend adding an algicide at the recommended interval as well but i do not. I worked for a pool store one season. In the words of the owner "buy your chemicals from the hardware store, they're cheaper. The tests done by me are excessive, you're not drinking the water. Maintain the Ph and the chlorine will last longer."

Wow... Milo is on the ball here. Looks like reseach comes easy for some people.

I would have suggested something dumb anyhow, so I will let Milo's recommendations ride. THE ONLY thing I would ask/suggest is has the pool been recently retiled or refinished with old and nasty lye or banned chemicals?

If you can drink the well water and wash your hair (eyes) with it, then that isn't a problem. Did you call Al Gore? He knows about all things as he is all-knowing.
Obama said so... Or was that Al Gore who said so? Forget what Nancy Pelosi says...

JL Mealer
Mealer Companies LLC

Good point about the resurfacing. My pools vinyl so it never ocurred to me about contribution of plaster...

Its not so much the research as the gut wrenching fear that you live through when you first get chlorine lock in your own pool and the choices are Dump the water, pay $200 to get new water trucked in (or pay $400 using your tap water and paying sewer taxes on the water bill) then pay anothe r$200 on chemicals for the new fill.

Or put in $100 worth of shock to add Chlorine to breakpoint chlorinate to destroy the chloramines. And your thinking my pool will glow after I add that much shock so you worry a couple of nights and then you grab a beer and just do it...

All kinds of corruption seems to boil out of the water and then you're done. two days later your back to total chlorine =3.0 and free chlorine = 3.0 and the water is so clear the FAA calls you about being a hazard to civil aircraft with reflected light and shine.

But that bet on $100 of shock ("do you know how much chlorine that is , man?" he tells the store owner in disbelief) vs ~$500 to start over is a real pistol.

milo

Dear friends,

here I want you to remember that water balance is very important for all pools incl. vinil pools. All pool owners should pay attention to the water balance. Otherwise you always have risk of tile either loosing your tiles and dissolving your tiles and lost of your ceramics one by one and after a while your pool will start to drain from the pool walls or your ceramics or vinil will be covered by a calsium carbonate layer. This will couse many problem like lost of atraction, good home for algaes etc.

for the water balance there are 4 important value

1-pH, 2-total alkalinity, 3-calcium hardness, 4-temperature

2,3,4 enters the formulation as index but first pH enters direclty. so pH is a very important factor in water ballance and we can balance our pool water by changing the pH.

As all we know. There is a limit usuallt from 7,9 to 7,8 in our pools. This differance is given for to make our water ballance possible by playing with pH.

Factor finding:

temp factor alkalinity factor ca hardnes factor

0 0,0 5 0,7 5 0,3

12 0,3 75 1,9 75 1,5

19 0,5 150 2,2 150 1,8 etc.

formulation is pH+AF+CF+TF-12,1 = water balance index between -0,5 to +0,5

your water is said to be balanced and gives no damage or calsification on the walls of your pool. As you can see from the equation above by only playing with pH you can make your water ballance. with a example:

pH=7,3, Alkalinity=100ppm, calsium hardness=100ppm temperature of water is 28C

from the chart above we can find that

total alkalinity index of 100ppm is 2; same as 100 ppm of ca hardness is 1,6 we put them to the formulation

7,3(pH) + 2(AI) + 1,6(CI) - 12,1 = -1,2

This water is not balanced and will dissolve your tiles slowly. By making pH 7,8 this saturation index becomes -0,7 so it becomes save to use for your tiles and vinil.

Futher information can be find at the link belove

www.spasa.org.au/factsheets/Fact16.pdf

Hope this would help.

Regards

Milo,

Great answers; added your info to my home pool help folder and gave you a "good answer" vote. One last thing, is to check the age of the test kit. They don't age well and can give poor results if old. I had this problem not long ago. Plus, I keep mine in the house to control the storage temp better than outside. I would assume the pool store to have up to date test chemicals since the go through so many in their daily water test routines.

Another issue which I found is that the testing kit chemicals do have a shelf life. I use a liquid based testing kit because I find that it is more accurate than the strips. I do agree with Milo in that the pH level needs to be addressed first, then tackle the Alkalinity. Even though I have a DE filter, upon opening the pool I run the pump for 24 hrs for two days and then back off two hours every succeeding day after that until I get to about 8 - 10 hrs a day (With Milo's suggestion of circulation will help with chemistry plus it will help prevent alge build up.) This length of time is dependent upon your area. With the Cyanuric Acid, this will definitely affect your pH and your chlorine content. I would begin with shocking the pool and run the pump consistantly for 24 hrs after. Then I would deal with any pH variations.

Oh and the topic of pool salesmen, the ones that are seasonal stores are not worth talking to. I deal with a reputable pool company. Contact the BBB to find a reputable company and build a relationship. Often, they will test water for free and offer free advice. Also, they will have all of the applicable chemicals that you will need.

Don't give up hope and good luck

With liquid test method you mean ortotoluide method which is a light yellow color solution. This method gives only total chlorine in the pool which is free chlorine and binded chlorine. This method does not mean much and usually couse missing results. For my experiances best method is DPD tablet tests which with DPD 1 tablet you can find your free chlorine and with DPD3 tablet you can find your total chlorine and the differance between gives you all the chlormine in your pool. When you keep your free chlorine level 1-2 you should not have any chloramine in your pool which gives chlorine oddor, decaying bath suit, changing hair color and irritation on the eyes and sessible skin parts. When you have 1 ppm free cholrine measured by DPD1 you can not feel any chlorine effects in your pool. If you are working with 0,3 -0,5 ppm there is always risk of having chloramine in your pool and you can feel it.

when you have nitrogen containing human derivatives in your pool chlorine reacts them like that

N containg human derivatives + Cl2 =monochloramine very irretant

ıf you have enough CL2 they turns to dichloramine very irretant and smell of chlorine

if you still have more Cl2 in your pool trichloramine which is also very irretant and evapurates give extensive chlorine smell.

if you still have more Cl2 then they all turns back to N2 and leaves your pool without any irretation.

when people enters the pool its secrates urine containing products to the pool water with out knowing it. Childeren, old men and women have more tendency to this naturally. This is why Cl2 is still most important additive for cleaning and desenfectation for pools. If you treat well there is no problem of this. Free chlorine complately eliminates them.

This is my first time on the forum. I can understand your frustration with the pool problem.

I had a similiar problem a few years ago with my pool - same circumstances.

The first thing you need to do is get rid of the "green tint" this is green algea, try shocking with chlorine until the water is clear. add algeaside to balance. then after cleaning the pump, start to work the p.h. level. You will go crazy trying to do the p.h. without first controling the algea problem.

I also partially filled my pool with my well it was slow but effective. Just a tip to consider that some local fire companies depending on your area, will fill your pool and use the experience as a training drill for newbies - worth a shot. total cost is based on a contribution to the fire department ( $50.00 - $100.000) your call.

Good luck and I hope this helps!

Rick

Thank you for your help. I need all I can get.

You a going to need to shock your pool to kill the algea growing in your pool water. Is the pool covered? Covering the pool with an opaque cover will reduce the growth of algea.

To shock the pool to reduce kill the algea and eliminate the combined clorine you need to add enough clorine to raise the levels to 10x the current total clorine levels. For example if the total clorine is 3ppm you need to add clorine to reach 30ppm.

If the alkalinity is were you want it, you could try aeration of the pool water to raise the PH level of the water. The easiest way to do this is to make a sprayer which attaches to a return line and sprays onto the water surface. This agitation causes carbon dioxide to be released from the water raising the PH(The PH is raised due to reduction of carbonic acid present in the pool water). The reason for using aeration and not more chemicals is that the akalinity should stay constant as the PH slowly increases.

I would suggest that you by a good quality liquid test kit such as the ones from Talor Technologies. I had a real problem maintaining correct balance until I got my own accurate testing solution. Running back and forth to the pool store is very frustrating and usualy results in your spending excessive amounts of money on unneccesary chemicals.

What is the pool contruction? Cement, Vinyl liner, etc.

Good comments, THANKS

Some good answers no doubt, but I'll tell you a couple of things based on 20 years in the pool industry. At 70 - 100 parts cyanuric, you chlorine is not "locked" and that is a questionable theory anyway. Go ahead and use liquid chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) to raise the chlorine level to 5ppm or above and that in itself will pull your pH up. Circulate the pump 24 hours/day and maintain by adding more liquid chlorine until your pH is 7.4. At that point, if your water is still discolored then shock with 10 pounds of calcium hypochlorite (granular chlorine).

Hope that helps.

The recommended range of Chlorine in a pool is 1-3 ppm; (google will give many links)

In the first step of the process, You recommend taking chlorine up to 5 ppm.

Then you suggest adding more liquid chlorine (unknown quantity) to raise pH to desired level. Lets be stingy and say that raises Chlorine to 7 ppm. Liquid chlorine will not have cyanuric stabilizer).

Then, you suggest adding ten pounds additional calcium hypochlorite shock, Which I presume will be about 13 or 14 ppm figuring 7.8 pounds equals 10 ppm in a 24000 gal pool.

13 plus 7 = 20 ppm.

Congratulations, you've just acheived "questionable theory" breakpoint chlorination.

As was suggested earlier.

If That 20 ppm doesn't get reduced by destroying those chloramines as held in that "questionable theory," At what point will the pool at 20 ppm to be safe for humans to enter?

milo

Sorry MILO, I will speak s-l-o-w-e-r for you. Bring the chlorine back up to 5 ppm with liquid chlorine. The next day, test and add if needed more liquid chlorine (probable), and so on, until pH is in a 7+ normal range -- thus relieving this man of his acidic state of trouble. The green tinge is a temporary inconvenience at best and will probably be relieved by the time the pH hits 7.4. More than likely swimming by the weekend. I think I hit a nerve with the chlorine lock statement.. sorry. Truth hurts.

Thank you for the advice. I appreciate all the help I can get.

70-100 ppm cyanuric acid level is a very critical limit for chlorine lock. As you know cyanuric acid test based on turbidity measurments and usually very difficult to see the right point of this turbildity. Real cyanuric acid level usually much more than what you measure in your pool. many conditions are effecting the real turbilidity turn point. I never keep cyanuric acid level over 30 ppm and had no problem. In hot season places accumulation of cyanuric acid increase too much due to the evapuration of water from the pool.

I dont know what kind of filteration he has. Cartrage filters are usually changeable so no back wash like we do in sand filters. If there is no back wash of filter he need to replace some of the water like he do back wash. Pools need some fresh water to replace themselves. As far as I know cartrage filters do not allow to use flucolant to make the water clear. in such conditions and when I need to use alum fluculant after I add fluculant I let the pool work 2-4 hr without filtercartrages and then close the pool and let it sattle down and vacum clean by discarging the water directly our to dranage. Be sure that if any alum fluculant left in the pool those will clog the filters.

I strongly advise to use sodium hypochloride (bleach) until the cyanuric acid level falls to 10 ppm. You will see that your pool will be clear and safe. I didnt have any problem from well water (very hard water) by controlling the water balance. If you want a quick result you can use HEDP (Hydroxyethane-1,1 diphosphonic acid) as cleating agent. Dont use any other cleating agent because HEDP have great resistance to free chlorine. This is not necessary if you are able to control your water balance by your pH. This is necessary if you are not able to set your pool water balance between -0,3 to+0,3 by your allowable pH in the pool.

I manufacture 5 years pool chemicals and service to the pools from olympic pools to small pools and find out that most of the problems in the pool comes out from mechanical problems than chemical problems and as far as you try to solve them by chemicals you increase the problem so its best to starat from a mechanical check to a problem. If you are keeping cyanuric acid level max. 30 ppm, free chlorine level min. 1 ppm and water balance between -0,3 to+0,3 max. you cant have any chemical problem and also you should not allow to enter any oil to your swimming pool. ( from sun screen creams and oils). Now a days water resistance sunscreen products are great problem for the swimming pools because you can not get them out by short shower and they get in to the pool easly especially ones who use algicide(quats) in the pools.

Regards

Hasan

Sounds good, but again I beg to differ. In Texas we consistantly run 20 - 50ppm cyanuric acid levels to combat the chlorine loss to sunlight in commercial pools -anything less will only make consistancy near impossible. It is a common practice for residential service companies to run 100ppm (and add to reach that upon taking on a pool) so that they can maintain residual until the next visit. The question and problem was related to low pH - not chlorine "lock". I've seen some beautiful pools with 200ppm stabilizer levels, though that is well known to be above acceptable levels.

I fully agree that the use of sodium hypochlorite will help with both issues. I actually prefer 20-40ppm, but it is so commonly found to be much higher in your average tablet feeding backyard pool. Oh well.

Hi Back, to all of you helpful people out there. The information sent about raising the PH of my pool will hopefully help to get this "challenge" fixed. I am out of town for the next couple of days so trying some of these methods will be number 1 on my list when I return home. Thanks to all of you for taking the time and effort to help me with this. We have used the 3" chlorine tabs for years we use 2 bags of "shock" at least once a week and run the pump 6 to 8 hours a day. We have had problems raising the PH for several years now. It's a constant,frustrating, expensive battle. Chemical test solutions have been replaced with no change in readings. Do you recommend the "test strips" or the liquid chemical for testing purposes? I feel like I walk into the "pool store" and am at the mercy of the "boys" working in there. Many just say "add" more of this or more of that!!!!! I will let you know the results!!