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Safe Drinking Water Development

12/05/2006 9:10 PM

I would like top discuss safe drinking water development for the 1.1 billion people in the world who do not have it.

Topics could include treatment and filtration, well drilling, handpump repair, water borne pathogens and anything else pertaining to water. While working in developing countries and learning about water I feel the need to share and discuss this topic which everyone has in common though they might not fully realize it.

Lets get started with water treatment and filtration.

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#1

Re: safe drinking water development

12/06/2006 3:54 PM

Best one I have seen is the Lifestraw. Inexpensive personal water filter tube. sometimes the best ideas are the simplest.

http://www.gizmag.com.au/go/4418/

http://www.lifestraw.com/en/low/low.asp.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: safe drinking water development

12/06/2006 11:02 PM

Hello Yes the life straw is a good thing though not within reach of many who are at an income of less than a dolar a day which is quite common. Approtiate tecnnologies may be the way to go try searching "appropriate technology developing countries"

See what you find and we can get a great discussion going. I have been working on some filtration systems that can be used at an individual scale to a village scale.

thanks for your input

Rustyh2o

I will have more later

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: safe drinking water development

12/07/2006 1:02 PM

The basic stats given are ~$2 for the Lifetube, life given as ~700 liters, usage given as ~2 liters a day = actual daily cost of $2/(700/2) = $0.0057 = 0.6 cents a day. 4 cents a week / per person (half that for a child).

I would say that this is well within reach (and this is before mass-production is implemented which could reduce the cost another 50%).

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: safe drinking water development

12/07/2006 5:52 PM

Hi all,

I have a new device with me here in Bali just now and we're trialling it.

Basically we're using seawater and passing it through this device and producing up to 100,000 litres a day of what I reckon is very good potable water.

It's not a RO device and frankly, I'm not sure how it works. It's along the lines of the Scalar Energy Nicola Tesla commented on around 1908.

I'll get back to the forum after we do some further tests. What I can tell you straight up is it it is not killing plants and so forth we're using it on.

I'm completely amazed.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: safe drinking water development

12/07/2006 7:15 PM

Well I am interested, but your comments on the possible use of Nicola Tesla's Scalar Energy pseudo science in this particular process baffle me. Lets stay with real facts and science shall we.

Also, what do you mean by a RO device?

Sounds like a simple filter system. Do you have a manufacturer and/or research link regarding this process? What's its physical size, infrastructure requirements and power source (or does it run on zero-point energy ).

Looking forward to your reply.

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#13
In reply to #5

Re: safe drinking water development

12/07/2006 9:48 PM

RO device he probably is refering to reverse osmosis

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#20
In reply to #4

Re: safe drinking water development

12/08/2006 7:45 AM

so what do you do over there?

love the idea - want to hear about the success.

Betty saavvy2003@sbcglobal.net

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#19
In reply to #1

Re: safe drinking water development

12/08/2006 6:21 AM

I checked out the lifestraw specs. It claims filtration down to 6 micron.

Giardia type cysts are smaller so I doubt it would be effective against them. These critters are not 100% disables even by chlorine.

That is why I am interested in a household type filter device. A filter bed fine and deep enough will take care of giardia. Just take a little research and trial to determine what is available locally. Sand is a good filter media

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#6

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/07/2006 8:25 PM

For last 20 years I have experimented with all types of water-- flowing/static/polluted:

I am today sure that the world has a simple way of solving their water"Crisis"

I summarize my findings: Any water will have pollutants and water-borne bacteria = Smell+Smack+colour+ taste

: All above can be rid of by passing Electric DC current for a few minutes.No Chemicals to add!

:These will all float/sink as a Coagulated mass.

:Now do not Stir/muddle this quiet Electro-Coagulated mass.

:Drain out from this quiet pool -settled overnight- and you have SAFE DRINKING WATER fit for Royalty or each of the 1.1 Billion.You can Filter if you care for Crystal Clarity!

:In fact all the world's ExistingWater Treatment Plants/Chlorination/Ozonization need to be scrapped and every family create their OWN safe Electro-Coagulated Drinking Water. Electricity +Semiconductors=Health.

First time Electric Power will be Essential

There will be the usual flapping of wings by sceptics/doubters

Anybody? I am available.

mm

PS -Look below what the master said:

"I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." -- Albert Einstein

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/07/2006 8:57 PM

Interesting. I was not aware that DC current could be used in this way, especially for organic bacteria and non-conducting pollutants. Does this also work for viruses too?

How does it work, do you put the water in a metal container with a positive electrode in the water and negative on the metal?

I am not quite sure what you mean by Smack? Was this a spelling error.

Not sure what you mean by "First time Electric Power will be Essential". Could you elaborate please.

Do you have some research/facts to back up these very bold claims (what voltage, is it, is it pulsed or continuous), especially as you propose saving the world billions with your development. How did you go about conducting you research over the last 20 years.

I am very spectical about this creation of coagulated mass, especially for the primary nasties like bacteria and viruses. So the big question is, how do you know (proved to yourself scientifically and visually or thru analysis of water samples) that they are getting sucked into this mass and being able to be removed from the polluted water to make it safe?

Perhaps you could start by telling us a little about yourself and your technical background(s). What first made you think that DC current could achieve this?

Looking forward to your replies.

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/07/2006 9:11 PM

Alum works in a similar way as a flocing agent. Cations act a by attracting the suspended particles in the water. Might be worth trying a combination of the two

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/07/2006 9:23 PM

flocing agent?, Cations act a?

Your breaking up, could you repeat your last message.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/07/2006 9:30 PM

Alum works in a similar way as a flocing agent. Cations act a by attracting the suspended particles in the water. Might be interesting trying a combination of the two

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/07/2006 9:45 PM

Perhaps I should have been a bit clearer, what is "flocing" agent? What is meant by "Cations act a"? These appear to be spelling mistakes and sentence fragments.

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/07/2006 9:54 PM

Yes the nessage broke up. flocing is adding alum and slowly stirring it. Most water purification plants use it. The alum causes the suspended particles to cling together and sink to the bottom. This removes turbidity "cloudiness" The cation action acts as an attraction to the particles opposite charge as I understand it

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#23
In reply to #12

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 8:41 AM

Jack sceptisism is useful, as is sarcasm, yet both together usually inspire a general sense of irritation and distain. Oh and remember that a persons history may have little to do with their ability to great things tomorrow.

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#24
In reply to #7

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 8:49 PM

Thanks for your serious interest.

Myself: Really I should be called Mr. Jack-of all -trades. Am 71, Many Engineering Degrees. Widely travelled all over the world.

Need-based discovery really.

I came to settle in an area of Guwahati, Assam -where annual Viral epidemics are common. The water I found in my dug well is red, smelly and oily reflecting layer floats up in minutes of surfacing.

I had no other source.

I remembered seeing in a Russian Small town in '70's - villagers battling with their bad water. They were fiddling with wires and electrodes to KOAGULATSIA the bad water.

' 85 I was thumbing with physical Chemistry Higher College Textbook -and Presto -there it was --Electro-Coagulation.

It did not take me more than a day to rig up rectifers, Electrodes, Insulated Plastic bucket---and Wonderwater was avilable in my home.Stomach Problems -- no more in my family and in hundreds of other homes whom I gave-- they will swear by the efficacy.

Many an analysis in Public analysts , Pathological Labs, University Spectroscopy Lab, ---later revealed--all bacteria /Virus perish in the Electric Voltage gradienChain developing and bridging the Electrodes(peak 400V). Dead- they cling onto the Flock of Ferrous Hydroxide and Settle down.

Smack- Webster- "Characteristic Taste or flavor"

Any Water including sewage/sullage/oily/Chemicalized can be readily seperated -maybe in 2 stages

And any scale-even for a city.

Electro Coagulation was discovered in USA 100+ years back-.Slept like Cinderella.

Let us use it!

Without Universal Elecricity use -world cannot Purify their daily survival water Easily. Good water is needed by humans, animals,even plant life . That's what I said-Essential.

Begin your Search in Google Electro Coagulation. Everybody is working-yet nobody is commercializing for the small man!

Anybody?

MM

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/07/2006 8:58 PM

I will have to try the DC current approach. I have an old plating rectifer I have been using for sodium hypochlorite production. I have also worked with silver ion production. One of the main things I am currently working on is impregnating charcoal with silver. Have you had any experience in that area. charcoal can be a good filtering agent even unactivated carbon. The major carbon producers have carbon+silver available and they are using silver nitrate

Rusty

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#25
In reply to #8

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 8:54 PM

You Don't need no gold and Silver and activated Carbon.

Scrap Iron will do . Keep it simple!

Just Mind the current. Electricity will do the rest.

Develop yourOWN knowhow.

Best

mm

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#15
In reply to #6

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 1:35 AM

Passing electricity through water will not get rid of virus or prion particles and I doubt it will kill all if any bacteria. Secondly lets look at what happens if you start with salty water. At the one electrode you will get sodium and hydrogen while at the other oxygen and chlorine. I hate to tell you this but;

O2 + Cl + 2H2 + Na = Explosion + Salt water

So you end up where you started less one building. If you use AC instead of DC you get all the products at both electrodes and get nowhere fast. How can you claim that passing electricity through water will get rid of all the dissolved salts, bacteria, virus and prion particles? You pass electricity through the water acid solution in a car battery and you wouldn't dream of drinking that would you?

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#17
In reply to #15

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 5:44 AM

Buy, When you pass DC through salt water you create sodium hypochlorite 'bleach" a good source of chlorine to treat drinking water

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#21
In reply to #17

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 7:52 AM

That's because the sodium is depositing on one electrode and the chlorine at the other but the chlorine is dissolving back into the water. You are also getting hydrogen at the end the sodium is being deposited at and oxygen at the other. If these are allowed to build up you have an explosion on you hands. You are literally playing with rocket fuel, that big tank on the space shuttle is full of liquid hydrogen and oxygen and you saw what happened to the Challenger.

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#27
In reply to #17

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 9:10 PM

There is a fallacy in your simple Chemistry!

And it does not solve the water crisis for the 1.1 Billion .

Electro Coagulation is the ONLY way!

mm

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#16

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 4:50 AM

DEAR SER/MADAM

I WOULD LIKE MORE INFORMATION ABOUT SAFE DRINKING WATER WITH HARD COPY IN MY POSTAL ADDRES.

THANK YOU

KUMILACHEW MEHABAW

P.O.BOX 669

BAHIR DAR

ETHIOPIA

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#18
In reply to #16

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 5:48 AM

Hello, I have a lot of different types of information available. What are you particular interests or problms with drinking water?

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#38
In reply to #16

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/09/2006 6:25 AM

Dear Sir or Madam?

Hard Copy will be hard to come by.

Potential Suppliers might send you some--still does not get you started.

You need to get a Chemist/Technologist to join CR4 and follow the lead.

IT WILL GET INTERESTING. Your team can thereafter implement this simple solution Ethiopia- wide. And Create even faster Marathon Runners!

Basic problems deserve simple solutions.

Best

MM (Mr.)

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#22

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 7:58 AM

HI all,

I don't know much about the dc current thing, or if its possible. Assume it is, can't we just boil the water to kill the virus??

To Masu, another verson of your quote:

"We, the unwilling, lead by the unknowing, doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so lnog, we're now quailify to do anything with nothing."

- MidniteFighter

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#26
In reply to #22

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 9:02 PM

Boiling kills Some Bacteria only. What a loss in these Energy Crisis days!

mm

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#28

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 9:34 PM

I have worked many many years in water treatment industry, and I have been successful in treating water from 5,5000 ppm down to 72 ppm, and added addatives to improve the quality of the produced water (incl. UV), using different methods of filtration.

I would be very happy to work alongside with you, or help in any possible ways that ,I can. so please be in touch.

Truly yours

E. Afshari

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 9:42 PM

Dear Mr. Afshari,

And why not?

All for a safe and good life for all on planetEarth.

And we should be always prepared to forget the past and to start all over again--if something better , easier, crisis-less comes out of that change!

I am there at mikemahant@hotmail.com

Best

MM

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#30

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 10:31 PM

Rustyh20:

High on my list too. I've been spending about 1/2 of my time in India over the past year working on drinking water purification. There are a pile of agencies (mostly non-governmental organizations or NGOs) trying to do something here, but they don't have the expertise nor the technical skills to make a difference.

We've got some big guns here with pretty significant funding trying to have an impact (World Vision, Carter Foundation, Clinton Foundation, Gates), but few really effective approaches to-date. You can drill wells all you want here, but the quality of the water is still sub-standard. People are still dying from water-bourne diseases that we "eradicated" in the more developed world (malaria, polio, cholera, etc.) years ago.

I work for a Seattle based biotech company. We are focusing on point-of-use solutions. Infrastructure is difficult to build here for a large variety of reasons. Once built, it is equally difficult to maintain for a variety of similar and dissimilar reasons. By focusing on treating water at the point of use, without the need for power or water pressure (most homes have neither electricity nor running water), at a very low cost (income levels are excruciatingly low) the biggest impact can be made in the quickest time. That is our goal.

I'd love to participate in this discussion. Let's get some other thoughts here...

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#32
In reply to #30

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 10:57 PM

hello Halo-Eric

That sounds good. I am in favor of appropiate technology. Using technology in the appropiate sense. Some things will work in some areas but are not practical in others. I am willing to get someting together that will help in a way that can be maintained by locals. They may need help fron time to time and that is ok too. Building on bio-sand, slow sand, sodium hypochlorite production and carbon I think we can come up with a solution. I have been studying, working, testing and designing filtration and treatment techniques for the last two years with simplicity, cost effectiveness and practicallity in mind. So I have a small base of experience to build upon. Working in east and west Africa and also in Peru I realize the differences in cultures from technologically advanced compared to the almost primative. Improvements can be done in water quality most anywhere. Sometimes it will not be perfect.

I am not out to try to impress anyone, win arguements or present anything as foolproof. I am just working to provide safe water. If it means doing some research that is good. I cant rely on my own knowledge of the topic. It is like most everything worth learning about. The more you learn, the more you realize there is to learn.

rustyh2o@alltel.net

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#31

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 10:44 PM

Reading this string illustrates the problem. No one solution will solve all of the problems. In summary:

1. Simple devices like the current Lifestraw don't manage cysts and don't kill viruses. I've tested them in my micro lab. They kill bacteria (about 3-log reduction), but don't really even touch the viruses. They use a simple filter that won't remove cysts, and an iodinated resin that while partially effective vs. bacteria, really doesn't address either cysts viruses. Great idea... it needs better technology.

2. Electro coagulation will clarify the water, and by doing so, precipitate some of the bacteria and cysts stuck on the dirt. Better than nothing, but expensive (in relative terms here) and not really fully effective.

3. Ditto for alum. Much cheaper than electro-coagulation, but again you're not going to get microbiologically safe water.

4. R.O. will work, but who can afford it? Also, when water is scarce, rejecting a large percentage of the water via an RO unit doesn't really make sense.

Seems like the solution is low cost filtration for the cysts (you can do this with gravity pressure), disinfection via bromine or chlorine compounds to kill the viruses and bacteria, and then removal of any residual bromine or chlorine with activated carbon. All these materials are readily available around the world. We can get devices to be used in households at a reasonably low cost (may need some subsidy initially, but there is money waiting to be spent here on effective solutions), followed by an education program on how to recharge/maintain these systems. That's where we will get to sustainability.

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#33
In reply to #31

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 11:13 PM

Slow sand filtration will remove giardia if it is set up right. Sand is cheap and available most anywhere. I build sodium hypochlorite generation systems. For what they do they are very cost effective and the "hypo" solution is easily transported to POU areas where not electricity is available. I am waiting for a report concerning unactivated carbon. Carbon that has not been activated will work it just is not as effective as activated carbon. So in a area where ac is not available just use more carbon to increase surface area. Good carbon in the US used for households is impregnated with silver. I am working on practical ways to do that in a third world enviorment. My research so far indicates that it will be easy enough to do and be cost effective. As far as housings for these materials I have found a good product for that also and it meets all of the criteria. light weight, affordable, strong, uv resistant, chlorine resistant and FDA approved for potable water. So lets talk about it and do something.

rustyh2o

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 11:29 PM

Rustyh20-

You're right. Giardia is nasty and prevalent in many waters around the world. Cryptosporidium is even worse, more difficult to remove, more chlorine resistant, and even more prevalent in the world's waters. Mostly due to hygiene practices, particularly with animals (bovine sources). Just a few cysts and infect you. Multiple deaths each year because of it - even in the U.S.

I'm working with a carbon company here in India. Being able to get effective carbon (whether activated or not) is key. As you note, you can simply char coconut shell and get some adsorptive activity. Coconut shell is readily available in much of the tropical world. This happens to correspond with the majority of the water quality issues as well.

Sounds like we share the same mission - providing safe drinking water in the developing world to improve the health of a significant number of people.

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#37
In reply to #34

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/09/2006 6:04 AM

Coconut shell charcoal is some of the best in the world. Very strong so it holds up well. Steam activation is probably not that difficult but it does take some energy.

I am curious as to the prices of AC in India. I have a 50# sack here to experiment with in silver impregnation.

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#35
In reply to #31

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/08/2006 11:40 PM

Halo-Eric, I agree that electro coagulation will not destroy all bacteria and virus particles. Bacteria cause two problems, firstly they infect and multiply with a persons Gastro Intestinal tract and secondly they produce toxins. Killing them may not get rid of the toxins. As for virus particles you can't kill them because they aren't actually alive. They are just DNA sequences wrapped with in protective protein case. They reproduce by invading living cells and using the cells internal chemistry to reproduce. Finally nobody has mentioned prions. Prions are modified proteins that when they infect a living organism hijack and convert existing proteins into copies of themselves. Mad cow disease and CJD are caused by prion infections. Short of a thermo nuclear device there is no way to get rid of prions and that includes electro-coagulation, electrolysis, heat, radiation, chemical, pressure and every other type of treatment you can think of, they are nearly indestructible.

You also stated that malaria was caused by bad drinking water. Malaria is a parasite and is spread via the anopheles mosquito not by drinking contaminated water. By the way malaria is the single biggest killer of humans, way ahead of all the GI tract infections combined.

Personally if electricity is available I would use a combination of filtration with ozoneation to destroy the pathogens.

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Participant

Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4
#36
In reply to #35

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/09/2006 12:06 AM

You are correct - viruses are deactivated, not killed. Oxidation is the typical deactivation mechanism via chemical destruction of the protein envelope. Ozone, chlorine, and bromine are all effective. Bacterial destruction via oxidation methods typically oxidize the toxins as well, if a reasonable level of oxidant is used.

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Anonymous Poster
#39

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/12/2006 11:33 AM

Dear rustyh2o: We recently had a programme on our TV about a device produced by a member of a Rotary Club somewhere in the Bristol area I think, It showed the presenter scooping a jar full of muddy water from a field, and it was really brown, she put this device in to the water, called a straw I think, and proceeded to drink, she could not detect a taste other than a normal one to the water she was drinking, the group were/are looking for sponsors I believe to get this device underway so as to send them to the developing countries, Try BBC .---Trwyndu

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Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Rockwell,North Carolina
Posts: 211
Good Answers: 1
#40
In reply to #39

Re: Safe Drinking Water Development

12/15/2006 5:32 AM

I think I know of the product you are speaking of. My goal is to at least provide household water filtration units. In many village situations the young girls or the women spend much time carrying the water to the homes. A good pour through filtering device works well in the homes.

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