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Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/21/2009 3:23 AM

Hypochlorite is a cheap but corrisive biocide at consentrations above 2ppm. I need consentrations at 500ppm. What other biocides could be advised that are not that corrosive and not too expensive?

In case I have to keep hypochlorite as biocide, I got problems with valves. Piping are in GRE, but what material can be used for valves larger than 6" with rating 150#. Titanium is to expensive!

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#1

Re: Can hypochlorite (NaOCl) be replaced by other non corrosive biocides?

07/21/2009 3:34 AM

Corrosive to what? Sodium and calcium hypochlorite solutions do not corrode polypropylene, for example.

The whole idea of a biocide is that it is corrosive to organic systems, rendering them non-viable.

Here is a materials compatibility resource.

<...valves larger than 6" with rating 150#....>

For 500ppm biocide? Wow! That is interesting. What is the process, and what is its temperature?

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#2

Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/21/2009 11:09 PM

Formaldehyde is cheap and works wonders killing bugs. It is effective at very low levels (much lower than 500 ppm!). Paraformaldehyde pellets were volatilized in a pan over a candle to disinfect rooms back when the Spanish Flu was raging after WW I. It can be used safely if handled properly. Other products of consideration could be glutaraldehyde and I think there is one something like dibromo propane diol

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/22/2009 5:59 AM

wcfloyd

Formaldehyde as a biocide is no doubt effective, technically speaking, but it is a listed banned chemical with so much of ill effects to human. Have you taken the human safety into consideration?

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#4
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Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/22/2009 7:28 AM

Yes, I've taken human safety into consideration. I said it can be used safely if handled properly. Formaldehyde is all around us from natural sources. There is no such thing as absolutely "Zero Formaldehyde" in practical applications. Have you ever eaten an apple? We tested apples in our lab and they contained 10 ppm formaldehyde. I tested a boll of cotton picked directly from a cotton field, and it contained 20 ppm formaldehyde. This was part of a project studying formaldehyde on fabric. If you wear a new dress shirt with a permanent press finish, it probably contains 25-50 or more ppm formaldehyde. Industrial strength formaldehyde can be 37% to 50 % formaldehyde. This can cause serious health hazards and must be handled properly under controlled conditions with ventilation/gloves/respirators. Once diluted to a biocidal dosage, brief exposure to the treated material normally does not cause problems. Back in the old days when technicians made urea-formaldehyde resins on the bench top where I used to work, they never got the flu or a cold in the winter. We figured their exposure to formaldehyde killed flu and cold germs.

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#9
In reply to #4

Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/22/2009 11:24 AM

GA and I gave it one. On a continuing basis, we daily encounter many chemicals that are biochemically active around us. The lawyer-heavy EPA and others agencies (eg. DEA and Homeland Security) have gotten "tangled up in their underwear" and foisted requirements and hazardous listings on so many chemicals that it is very hard if not impossible to obtain needed chemicals for research. If any trained scientist or engineer (whether at major corporations or in entreprenureal settings) has need of reasonable quantities of these chemicals, they should be made available at near manufacturing cost. They once were not long ago. I believe that would be a benefit to the research comunity and ultimately to the economy. Without research (including chemical research) this country's economy is going nowhere.

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#10
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Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/22/2009 12:06 PM

Shakespear had it right: "First, let's kill all the lawyers!" Did you ever read a msds for sodium chloride(table salt)? sounds deadly.

But yes, I'm a self-employed entrepreneural chemist working in a garage laboratory with clients from all over the US and around the world. I worked for a "big" chemical company (HQ'd in Ohio, by the way,) and they laid me off. When nobody else would hire me full time, I hired myself. I comply with the rules, am environmentally and safety concious, and do things the right way, just as if I worked for a big company, but do them faster and better! Thanks for the GA!

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#11
In reply to #4

Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/22/2009 12:06 PM

WCFLOYD

Formalin is present abundantly in nature, all unripe vegetables, fruits, natural resins, is a major organic content in natural products. I have used formalin for making DYE FIXING AGENTS and used to run away as soon as the suffocating fumes starts sis sing from the closed up vessel fabric cover. If you happened to take unripe fruits, raw vegetables or inhale wood resin perfumes immediately throat infection and allied fever can develop.Formaldehyde in my practical opinion can destroy bugs and equally is danger to humans and other beings who happened to constant inhaling.In textiles formaldehyde is a banned red listed chemical. Polycarboxylic derivatives are being tried as alternates.For condensation based polymeric product synthesis formaldehyde is the basic convenient raw material and chemical technology is now looking for alternate ways.

I would like to still express my reservation on formaldehyde as a safe substitute to chlorine. And again chlorine itself is under dispute on Ozone layer depletion grounds.

U.V exposure, peroxides, nitrites or any natural based products could be possible safe alternates to chlorine. Let us await for further views of GURUS regarding this.Regards

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#12
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Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/22/2009 12:53 PM

As you were using formalin, which is industrial strength 37% formaldehyde, that is what should be used with proper safety precautions, ventilation, respirators, gloves, etc. A fabric cover on a chemical reaction vessel does not sound like proper equipment in my opinion. I would run away too! In a lab, such a reaction should be done in a vented fume hood. In a plant, it should be done in a reactor vented to a scrubber, and hard-piped from the formalin storage tank to the reactor. That's how we do it over here.

I have been involved for years in research for non-formaldehyde cross-linking agents of various types. Customers said,"We want "Zero Formaldehyde" technology!" We delivered "zero formaldehyde" technology. When they saw the price, they said,"Well, maybe we don't really need "ZERO". How about just real low formaldehyde." The advantages of formaldehyde-based reagents are formaldehyde is one of the cheapest industrial chemicals available, It has a low molecular weight which makes it very atomistically efficient. Any alternative aldehyde will weigh more per mole, cost more per mole and require more mass of aldehyde to make the analogous compound, which make analogous alternatives more expensive. And finally, it delivers high performance that is hard to beat. As I said... if handled properly and with proper safety precautions (ventilation, respirators, goggles, gloves, etc.), it can be used effectively.

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#15
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Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/23/2009 1:52 AM

How about recommending phosphoric/ oxalic acid to get pH6[ACIDITY] or use of lime to get pH 9[ALKALINITY], and possoble peroxide dosing to act as biocide. I think the larvae should not survive beyond pH 6 TO 9. If the spray is meant for sewage or land surface vegetation. TEACHER OO7 has to interact for exact situation.

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#18
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Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/23/2009 8:16 AM

I've seen bugs(mold, mildew, etc) growing in materials at pH 3 and pH 9.,Extreme pH alone won't defeat microbial activity. BY calling them "bugs", I don't mean larval creatures that grow 6 legs. Another alternative for high pH systems (pH 9) is hydrogen peroxide. Alkaline H2O2 is a strong oxidizer and kills microbes, but may also damage some products. When we've had a drum of material have spoilage problems (Bugs- foul odor) we would treat the material with a shot of formaldehyde. If it had an alkaline pH, we would also add a shot of peroxide. Odors came from mercaptans, and peroxide neutralized the odor.

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#19
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Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/24/2009 2:14 AM

Teacher007/WCFLOYD,

In textile process baths involving acid corrosions we used to use sodium nitrite as corrosion inhibitor, which can be added to chlorine solution.

Towards alkaline chlorine solutions ,the other alternate can be RESIST SALT[say 10to 20 GPL], which is chemically SODIUM META NITRO BENZENE SULPHONATE, a potential corrosion inhibitor at alkali pH ranges.

Added to this WCFLOYD's formaldehyde option with due ppm levels can be tried to avoid corrosion.

Now it is the turn of TEACHER007 for a trial and feed back, so that it would be informative all of us.

Regards

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#25
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Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

09/14/2009 10:13 PM

You write like a savy chemist with a great practical background. That's what I need for this project.

I'm looking for a sprayable, water-soluable, non-toxic, acid neutral and non-oxidizing solution that can be sprayed on carpet but later removed if one wanted to. Obviously I intend to glue something to the carpet.

I think this solution could be a big seller. You help me develop the solution ewe'll make some sort of arrangement whereby you get a portion of whatever profits are made. If you want a 50/50 split, then you'll have to share the costs 50/50 too. By costs, I mean the dvelopment and testing, the patent costs, marketing or selling this to a company for their line of products.

If you respond, I'll tell you more about what I have in mind..

Robb Blodgett (616) 516-2998 Grantawish@gmail.com

Byron Center, Michigan

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#21
In reply to #11

Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/28/2009 3:29 AM

Dear Sir,

Can you help me to provide formulation of DYE FIXING AGENTS on my email Id : jagdish@rasayan.com

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#13
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Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/22/2009 2:07 PM

"when technicians made urea-formaldehyde resins", GA for you.

Hi, we made this (and more) in my mothers kitchen (50 years ago). A little bit stinky but no harm visible.

We got everything we needed from the local pharmacy.

The only missing information - same situation until now - was about safety. This should be in the textbooks!

Today everything is different - more restrictions than necessary: you won't be able to buy any serious poison except it is sold as food. (Sugar, starch, hydrogenated fat...)

But if I am walking 200m along some gardens or street-flowers there are a lot of very poisonous plants.

So let the lawyers and law-making politicians work for some more time and we will be forced to emigrate to countries that do not over-regulate.

RHABE

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#5

Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/22/2009 8:14 AM

I regularly design and install water lines in North Carolina. We use hypochlorite to disinfect before making the line active. We require a solution of water containing 70% available chlorine, at a concentration of 100-ppm total chlorine immediately after chlorination. After 24 hours, the free residual chlorine should be at least 10-ppm. The lines are then flushed and sampled 24 hours afterward to ensure normal chlorine concentrations.

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#6
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Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/22/2009 8:51 AM

What are you trying to kill with 100ppm which cannot be with 10ppm?

Surely North Carolina cannot have such stubborn bugs?

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#7
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Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/22/2009 9:06 AM

Some parts of North Carolina are soooo swampy, that the state bird is the mosquito!

They grow big bugs, too.

(BTW... I'm in their rival state, South Carolina! )

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#8
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Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/22/2009 9:35 AM

You have to start out with a high enough concentration to kill anything in the lines, because the concentration will decrease with time. Also, the AWWA requires a conentration of 50 mg/l to disinfect the line, with a 24 hour residual of 25 mg/l. Some bugs can withstand lower concentrations for fairly long time periods.

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#16
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Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/23/2009 3:05 AM

Your comment is interesting. What materials do you use for valves?

My application is for filtration of seawater down to 0,1 ┬Ám, so I need to back wash and chemically wash the filters regularly with a biocide.

Usually Super Duplex is used in seawater applications, but it is not acceptable in combination with hypochlorite.

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#17
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Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/23/2009 7:57 AM

Our resilient seat wedge gate valves fall under the AWWA C500/C509 requirements, for a working pressure of 250-psi. All ferrous surfaces, inside and out, protected with a fusion-bonded epoxy coating.

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#14

Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/22/2009 2:16 PM

http://www.prominent.com/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-30/88_read-1209/

http://www.prominent.com/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-10/196_read-2716/

Hi,

here you find information from a worldwide operating German company that is concentrating on water disinfection and general water technology.

Maybe this is not at all new for you.

They produce and compare the features of NaOCl, NaClO2, and 03.

RHABE

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#20

Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/26/2009 5:38 AM

Chloramine could be a possibility. This is simply ammonia and hypochlorite and is used nowdays on water supply.

Of course, this immediately makes any materials containing copper dubious.

I know little about it, so can't help much.

Good luck

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#22

Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/28/2009 3:53 AM

You may use wonderful product Peracetic Acid which is ecofriendly product may replace most of the biocides

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#23

Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

07/28/2009 12:16 PM

Try Acroleine.

RHABE

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#24

Re: Replacing Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with Other Non-Corrosive Biocides

08/05/2009 11:18 AM

Copper sulfate cleans ponds at very low concentrations. (5 lbs per 5 acre/feet when well mixed with an outboard motor) Might that help?

HWG

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