Is Ford Better Off Due To LPG Taxi Fleets?

My Fords run on LPG! I did it myself though.

As far as the price of propane. It varies greatly form location to location.

All you need to get cheap propane is to have two dealers in the same area that don't like each other!

To get expensive propane all you need is 10 dealers that are all buddies and are cooperating to price fix the local rate.

I recently visited a truck stop and asked what the price of road fuel propane was for my pickup. $3.20 a gallon after tax. I then asked what is the cost of getting a 100# cylinder filled? $52. A 100# cylinder typically gets about 24 - 25 gallons when full. OR about $2 a gallon. The same company the owns that truck stop also owns a bulk delivery propane service. To get a home heating fuel tank filled by them is about $1.06 a gallon.

SO from the same supply source within the same company there is about a three to one difference in price just by where you put the fuel. I have found this to be true at several other suppliers and dealers in other locations as well.

Both vehicles and cylinders get filled off of the same tank with the same pump and hose. They just use a different tank coupler on the end of the hose. The truck stop fuel tank gets filled off of the same truck the fills the home fuel tanks.

Anyone else see a rip off?

I don't think Ford actually has much to do with whether propane fuel is popular or not in the USA but rather public misinformation and standard issue greed by the fuel suppliers and dealers has far more to do with it.

At one time propane was considered an alternative road fuel and was tax exempt. Now I cant find anyone that can give me a proper and official yes or no to if its actually still exempt or not. Let alone an actual reference to any Federal or state information that would simply say yes or no to the actual taxation issue.

Some small town stations don't charge road tax and say there never was any on propane and have never been officially told to charge tax on it since ther are so few people using it. But everyone else seems to grossly error on the side of caution (and greed) and simply gouges the customer for way more than what the road tax could possibly ever be.

I think simply getting the right information and proper knowledge into public hands would do far more good than anything else.

Thanks for relating your experiences. It is helpful to my research.

It is beginning to look as though greater use of Natural Gas, Propane, and CNG shall require significant investments in Public Relations, and the issue of price is one chicken or egg first puzzle to sort out.

On the one hand it is true that competition between gas stations has a bearing on pump prices, while on the other the paucity of LPG, CNG, or NG distribution infrastructure for transportation vehicles means there is no moderating competition across the nation, resulting in wild price differences, as well as availability.

Though there may be some benefit to the environment due to use of LPG, CNG, or NG for transportation vehicles, the simple National Economic benefit ought to be enough for the Nation since if the US doesn't need foreign oil as much, that will help keep the oversea supply at a lower cost.

Cheap energy is important for a strong economy for a multitude of reasons.

Though some things take off on their own without any government intervention beyond taxes on profits, other things do seem to call for severe use of Federal Power.

You would nearly have to get Federal Legislation requiring all gas stations to offer LPG, CNG, or Natural Gas to really make a fast change in the current situation.

With these gases there are technical issues not associated with gasoline, or kerosene, which dangerous, are relatively easy to handle as liquids.

For one thing it is apparently a bad thing to top off pressure tanks and there is some fueling technician knowledge required for safe operations.

It has been awhile since I operated a propane powered forklift, but in even those cases you just got filled cylinders, and hooked them up another when the one in service ran out.

(I actually had a Clark forklift license so I know at least to turn my head or wear safety glasses for you can get blinded if there is a pressure spray event.)

Who knows, maybe NG, LNG, and CNG will require "Full Service" like in the old days.

It does look to me that NG, LNG and CNG, not to mention LFG, (landfill gas) will have long legs as a transitional fuel.

To transition to all energy coming from renewables calls for electric power in the roads, and a Grid so pervasive we'll think we live in outerspace on a spaceship or something.

Actually finding a fuel station that handles propane for road or portable tank usage is not a problem. Almost every small town has a local tank filling station at the local gas station now. Any larger town or city has loads of them. Most people don't even notice the large white propane tanks and filling systems and its often right in front of where they fill their vehicles! If you see a propane tank with a cabinet right next to it, thats a bottle and vehicle filling system.

If propane and CNG catch on more some stations will be like whats with diesel fuel. There are some stations that choose not to carry it while others have the majority of their pumps with diesel and only a few with gasoline.

The national average price for propane as a heating fuel stay very even from place to place. I live 600 miles away from my mom and her propane is typically within a few cents of what my local price is.

The cost for road use is what bugs me so much. Its what varies without justification.If bulk rate is $1 a gallon road propane should be $1.32 or what ever the local state and federal tax rate is.

As far as filling vehicles or any other tank they can be topped of at any time. There is no reason to not be able to. I have topped off my vehicles countless times at home and on the road.

For filling, the propane hookup system is easy and simple to use. I typically do the hookup on my vehicles while at the station and just have the attendant turn the pump on and off. The propane pumping system could easily be converted to the same setup as a standard gas or diesel service pump too. The only real difference would be you would have a 'screw on' instead of an 'insert in' type dispensing handle.

Another advantage is that every propane tank for vehicles built since the mid or late 1990's has a built in over fill protection valve so you cant over fill your vehicle and cause a possible liquid venting condition. The vapor fuel concept has some other advantages as well. No spills for one. Dump a gallon of gas or diesel fuel on the ground and its there for a long time and flammable for a long time. Dump a gallon of propane on the ground and its gone before you walk around your vehicle! Most will be gone before the puddle can even form! Plus being a solid threaded connection from hose to vehicle there is going to be far less chance of vapor build up. Some of the new filling connectors actually have a vapor bleed off line that vents the connection pressure some distance away from the vehicle. Giving the filler near zero localized vapor when disconnecting.

Educating the public to the advantages would be far harder than setting up current gas stations for full self service propane fueling systems though. The mythes and bad information are still very tightly ingrained into Joe nobody and his clueless wife Jane. If they heard from a friend who heard from a friend who overheard a guy talking about someone, Joe and Jane will take it as the gospel truth. And even if you show them they are misinformed or wrong in person well maybe your really just a con man trying to fool them.

For far to many people fourth person information is for some reason more trustworthy and reliable than first person hands on information with a demonstration right in front of their very own eyes!

As far as I know setting up CNG stations is not that hard as well.

The tank venting is a little trickier, it helps to vent the gas so there is more room for the liquid [propane].

I used to go to a cardlock that had both LP & CNG, the cabinets for the pumps were identical to the diesel pumps... The hoses were even very similar. When the enable lever [where you store the nozzle when not in use] is up & the trigger pulled the pump kicked on..

I have never seen anyone fill a tank and need to vent the gas off the top. My filling pump only generates up to about 30PSI (most time less) over the standing tank pressures and that is more than enough to get the vapor to re condense back into liquid.

If the vehicle tank is very hot from being in the sun and my bulk tank is low on liquid and has a much lower pressure I just let the two tanks balance for a minute or so. The high temp propane in the vehicle tank boils off and cools itself to the same temperature and pressure as the bulk tank has. Being my pump and hose system is bidirectional I still only need one line.

I had suspected that they already had standard type filling pumps similar to those at gas stations. I just have not personally seen one yet.

Venting is very common, for fork lift & 5 gallon fillups, I've never seen a tank filled up with out venting

Where I live in North Carolina I have never seen anything but forklifts run on propane.

The tanks of propane at some gas stations, and some grocery stores seem only to be used for cooking grills, or a particular sort of space heater.

What to do to change things in the State of NC, where I live, is not fully known to me.

Can I just tell people, hey you can burn that in your car you know!

I am curious tcmtech if I am somehow mistaken, and NC has more infrastructure than I have been told by the local propane dealer.

I am curious what experiences you may have had traveling cross country in your propane powered vehicle.

So far I have not been further than the lower part of Iowa with my personal vehicles. I know North Dakota, Minnesota, South Dakota, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Montana have filling stations capable of doing vehicles without question. I have been in a number of other states traveling on work or vacation related trips with other people and I have not seen any real limitations on where you can get propane fill ups.

Nevada, Missouri, Wyoming and Michigan had systems in place at the few stations I have been at. Given even the small random samplings as I did it was apparent that its far more common than most people think! I have been told by others that they saw propane filling stations every where else they have been as well. I am sure that like most fuels there are going to be some regions that have less and are farther between locations.

As I have been told by several long haul truckers I know that truck stops typically are a guaranteed sources for propane. There are many refrigerated trailers and delivery vans that use a propane powered cooling systems of one type or another.

If people have barbeque's there is some place that fills cylinders and they can also fill vehicles too! A vehicle tank fitting is the same as whats on a standard bulk tanks so there are no connector compatibility issues to worry about. If you really have concerns and your vehicle is not dual fuel capable you would possibly want to take a tank to tank adapter pigtail and a 20 pound cylinder along to work as an emergency gas can!

As far as the venting to fill you are the first to mention it. Are you referring to the level indicator bleed port? Or actually having to blow down the cylinder being filled?

The fill indicator is typically open and is only used to let the filler know that the tank is full to its rated capacity. Its not integral to the actual filling process. But just an old fashioned way of knowing when the liquid level is at the limit. Thats common and some people still do it on the new cylinders and tanks that have the automatic shut off valves on them.

I have had propane tanks for forklifts filled dozens of times at places I have worked for and on many occasions they filled them while I waited and watched. Not one ever needed to hook up a second blow down line to them. They just connected and turned on the pump. So many pounds or gallons later they turned it off and disconnected. Some had the connector vent line plumbed out and away from the filling area but still they did not have to blow down the actual cylinder while filling.

The only reason I know of for blowing down a cylinder while filling is if the supply tank does not have a pumping system and a passive pressure transfer is needed. That is when the cylinder being filled is vented rapidly in order to get the filling process to work. This is common with farmers that fill their own cylinders off of their own bulk tanks and do not have pumps to do the transfer. The fill level bleed screw works as a blow down vent on small cylinders but is not adequate on anything bigger.

As far as the venting to fill you are the first to mention it. Are you referring to the level indicator bleed port? Or actually having to blow down the cylinder being filled?

The fill indicator is typically open and is only used to let the filler know that the tank is full to its rated capacity. Its not integral to the actual filling process. But just an old fashioned way of knowing when the liquid level is at the limit. Thats common and some people still do it on the new cylinders and tanks that have the automatic shut off valves on them.

Yes this is what I'm talking about. When filling pickups with out a booster pump, you can get a few more pounds in if you open the bleed. I didn't know it wasn't required, I never saw anyone fill with out opening the bleed. I was refused a fill because the valve wouldn't open [stripped flathead] on a 5 gallon. This would be the only part of filling up that would require any actual thought...

I agree that there are many places to fill up propane. Judging by the difference in heating costs between propane & natural gas around here, I would favor a CNG [compressed natural gas] conversion, especially if I can fill up at home with out paying the road tax [which they do pay attention to here in Cali]. This of course won't be possible without a booster pump, which are a bit pricey...

Around here the only tanks I see filled now that have the bleed port open is the 100# cylinders. everything under 40# has automatic shut off (OPD) valves.

The newest OPD cylinders I have seen don't even have the bleed port any more. If the tank is 40# and under and it doesn't have a OPD valve they wont fill them. Its illegal now for a propane distributer to do it.

But if you or a friend or neighbor does have a bulk to portable cylinder filling system (so few do) they can still be filled privately. Just don't make a big fuss over it though. Getting your buddy to fill a 20# cylinder for $6 instead of $18 is worth keeping it on the down low if you ask me!

I have a full two tank CNG system I got at a local auction years ago. $20 is all I paid. It was worthless to everyone else.

The reason so far the CNG systems are not catching on is basically because CNG has less average power output in an unmodified engine and the system is very heavy but has a very limited driving range. The two tanks I have weigh about 200# each and I have talked with the local natural gas company that has several CNG power pickups about them. They said the tanks I have are the larger capacity ones but still a full CNG pickup using them has 60 - 100 miles of realistic driving range.

The high pressure compressor (3500 - 6000 PSI) is very expensive and draws a large amount of power. Also its a well know fact domestic use CNG that heats your home is diluted with a fair amount of air in order to get it to burn cleanly and efficiently. Its usable heat value per unit of volume can be any where from 40 - 80% of what pure NG is.

As I have been told its that added air that prevents people from being able to compress and liquefy domestic service natural gas. I have two uncles that worked in the heating and cooling systems service branch of a major fuel supply chain. They confirmed this as well. Your domestic CNG is often badly diluted with air in order to get your volume purchased up!

I highly doubt that the initial cost of getting a compressor (410 k or more) plus it electrical power usage and the limited driving range would ever justify its use on a cost per mile basis. My tank on my pickup holds 75 gallons of propane and has a realistic driving range of 500 - 800 miles between fills and takes about 10 minutes with a 1/4 hp pump to refill.

If the LNG systems are perfected for vehicle applications and the equipment costs are reasonable it would be very competitive with propane. But still you will have to buy your LNG from a supplier simply because you cant make your own from your local home supply lines.

So far I have not been further than the lower part of Iowa with my personal vehicles.

A check of 'Midwest farmers co-op or CHS distribution points should give you a start

I can't recall the land-line # to pipeline dist we serviced, they are all over...

Ford is better of having a good sense of business...

Transcendian,

The Taxi issue is a bit more complex in Australia. Taxis are frequently second hand Police cars and then retrofitted with LPG. Last time I looked LPG was 79c per litre when diesel was $1.37 with petrol around the diesel price at the same servo.

The Ford has a couple of advantages for LPG and Taxis, Ford have stuck to the same floor pan since about 1970 so have a roomier car with a good size boot to take the LPG tank and still leave room for luggage. The other big advantage is the 4 litre straight six that Ford have continually upgraded with Honda's assistance, it has proven itself very long lasting and has the lazy power that is useful when converted to LPG. It has a bullet proof bottom end despite some of the non Honda upgrades to the top end being less than successful (late 70s and early 80s). Ford are the only local manufacurer making a proper station wagon. They remain rear wheel drive.

Holden on the other hand shuns the Taxi market (mostly second hand anyway) due to the poor brand image they portray. Coupled with this Holden (GM) have used Opel designs right down to the crappy German fuses, making their cars too small for several years. Holden do however make a Factory LPG vehicle, maybe it will come to light when they become more available second hand. Holdens are also rear wheel drive and can be purchased in the US as a Pontiac GTO with a 6 litre V8 (if you are quick).

Funnily enough subsidy money is what has kept Ford going long enough for Mitsubishi to blink first (before the global whatever). They were going to dump the "Barra" (190kw) series engines and import V6 engines. They have had a rethink and so far are still using the local engine.

Mitsubishi and Toyota make front wheel drive V6 designs the Mitsubishi is Falcon sized and the Toyota Holden sized. Toyota are mading inroads in both Police fleets and Taxi fleets with the Aurion / Camry. Diesel Maxi Taxis are becoming a major player (Toyota Hiaces mostly)