Chevy Trailblazer Exhaust Problem

G'day Donzi..

I have seen cast manifolds break & crack for several reasons. The main one is movement within the exhaust pipes that are not supported correctly. The weight pulls down on the manifold. Also, excess heat can cause cracking as well...

Sorry I can not help with the replacement on the converter though, But I agree, sounds a bit 'suss' that conv' & Man' have to come in as one unit though...

Good luck guys.

JOE.

lowiojo--

Appreciate the comments--I personally have sold /junked 200k--300k mi autos ( maybe 20/30 in my life time)--and being fugile (poor) and even being from the north for a good part of my life have never seen a cast manifold burn through with only 60k on th OD--(or even 200K) --true one can crack rather easy especially in extreme cold areas if exposed to sudden temp change---(snow/ice)---However this vehicle looks like it just came off the showroom including the engine bay---their's obviously a cyl or two burning "lean" on that bank and to make things worse, there's a full heat sheild around the manifold so at highway speed you know this thing is cherry "red hot"--The question I present is "this vehicle is a health/safety issue" and with only 60 k mi should be corrected by GM instead of playing word games ("manifold and cat conv must be one assembly")--what the hell is "one assembly" ??????

It's no wonder people stray from the the good ole USA products with this kind of service--What makes it bad ( I also purchased one too) !

Hello lowiojo,

To your question "this vehicle is a health/safety issue", the answer is YES. If you are smelling exhaust inside the vehicle, there is a danger of carbon monoxide build up. Since CO is odorless, the amount of exhaust smell is almost irrelevant to the amount of CO build up. The fact that you can smell the exhaust, and there is a sizable hole before the CC, could indicate that the levels inside the vehicle are high.
Even if the levels are low inside the vehicle, the CO will continue to build up in the blood to a dangerous level. Most people who die from CO poisoning don't even know. The effects start with a mild headache and progress thru disorientation on to unconsciousness. Opening a window or running the vents or a/c can make the problem worse since it can draw it into the vehicle.
Since you describe it as a sizable hole and not just a crack, I would suggest not driving the vehicle until it is fixed.

As for the manifold, the three or four times I have seen a manifold "burn through" which was not caused by rusting or cracking, was due to the CC being partially blocked which caused a hot spot to develop in the manifold. Bad engine timing or bad valves can also cause this, but is usually preceded by bad engine performance. Since your friend bought this as a used vehicle recently, there may be recourse that can be taken against the seller if you don't get anywhere with Chevy. It would depend on if you could show that it was preexisting, if it was a dealer or private sale, and the laws there in Florida.
I hope this helps.

Good Luck

avi-tech

Right on--Being an Eng myself, I've basically expressed the same to him-I'ts dangerous , expecially with small children in the vehicle--His wife (spastic and some times over-reactive) won't get in the car (she can smell it / He can't). Anyway, I'll pass this on and maybe he can rattle some cages (if he can find the right cage).

It would be great to find someone from Fl. who knows what cage to rattle !

Appreciate the info and you time !

Donzi

Hello donzi,

Sorry I miss titled your name in the last post. Now that you have added children to the mix, you may let your friend (and his wife) know that small children are more prone to the effects and long term health hazards of CO than are adults. There is also the fact that they tend to sit in the rear portion of the vehicle where there is a greater chance of CO build up due to less turbulent air. Another point to make is that if the cause is from something mechanical, there is a possibility that further engine damage could result and which might not be covered.

G'day DONZI..

Casting deficiencies & design play a big part is most manifold cracks & breakages. Yes there will be times when a manifold will crack as part of excess heat or hot spots from one cyl' or another as the exhaust gas comes directly out of the cyl heat. Mostly caused by engines running lean will be affected.

My comment on the one piece was directed toward GM, I don't know the what the Chevy T/B exhaust system lay-out is, but, usually manufactures supply CC & engine pipes as one unit then this is attached to the manifold separately. I may have mis-understood the original post...

But definately a Safety Issued that GM should be looking at rectifying.. & I should think they would if Manifolds keep failing.

Cheers for now Donzi..

regards Joe..

Rorschach

That's basically what I've been tellin him---He's a mild mannered gentleman so he's often taken advantage of.

I'll pass on the info--and we shurely appreciate the info--Now to find the "regional Mgr."

Thanks again !

Donzi

The exhaust manifold is specifically mentioned in the EPA document. That will be the "smoking gun".

The EPA requires manufactures to repair or replace devices that directly affect the chemical composition of the exhaust gasses. The converter does, the manifold does not. If they had been welded together from the factory and the condition of the converter caused the failure of the manifold, the manufacture would have to replace the assembly. If they are installed as separately replaceable units, the EPA does not require the manufacture to bear the cost of the manifold.

I suggest that you have a dealer or factory rep accept the responsibility for the converter damaging the manifold and having it replaced, contacting the EPA if necessary, and then obtaining a manifold in a junk yard. They are only about $20 there and are easily replaced if you don't break any bolts. Make sure you use a propane torch to heat the bolts when removing. An impact gun eliminates a lot of the stress on the bolt also. Maybe, if there is still a good relationship with the dealer, you can have him install the manifold when they do the converter.

From the EPA document mentioned above -

" EMISSION RELATED PARTS

These are examples of other parts of your vehicle which have a primary purpose other than emissions control but which nevertheless have significant effects on your vehicle's emissions. If any of these parts fail to function or function improperly, your vehicle's emissions may exceed federal standards. Therefore, when any of the parts of the following systems are defective in materials or workmanship and have failed in a way that would be likely to cause your vehicle's emissions to exceed federal standards, they should be repaired or replaced under the emissions warranty:

Fuel Injection System - fuel distributor

Air Induction System - turbocharger, intake manifold

Exhaust System - exhaust manifold

Ignition System - distributor, spark plugs, ignition wires and coil

Miscellaneous Parts - hoses, gaskets, brackets, clamps, and other accessories used in the above systems. "

The ultimate issue was the interpretation of warranty period.

I hadn't taken the time to read the document earlier. My bad. I have made a copy of it for my files.

bwire

Unfortunately we, Fl, ( at least in our county) has no inspections--I'm not avocating inspections since I'm from a State that does, and I feel it's grossly mis-used by the inspectors for "profit"!

Thanks for the input .

Donzi

The EPA rules only apply to vehicles registered in "states" having vehicle safety inspections qualifying under the ruling; otherwise the Fed emissions warranty is not applicable.

Get'r done one way or the other and get'r done while parts are plentiful now before the resultant shortage due the current "clunker" program occurs.

I think you are definitely should get a new manifold under warranty for 3 reasons:

1) emission compliance - as others have said, the exhaust manifold is a vital part of the emission control system. The leak in the manifold can affect the air/fuel ratio control (and emissions) if air gets sucked in (perhaps at light load due to pulsing flow/ low back pressure - venturi type effect depending on location of hole). Any trace air that is sent with exhaust to the O2 sensor will cause the system to actually run richer and create excess carbon monoxide (CO) at such conditions. Alternatively, at medium / high loads the higher back pressure will help force leakage at the manifold hole. Untreated exhaust has pollutants at perhaps 50X higher concentration than seen at the tailpipe (after the catalyst).

2) it is a safety issue - you don't want to breath the CO that may get in the vents / window from the engine bay - that is not healthy in high doses (above 35 parts per million is OSHA legal limit indoors for some workers). The dealer should be sympathetic for this reason alone.

3) warranty period - GM should still have powertrain (5 years / 100,000 miles?) and emission warranty left and is still required to honor all legitimate warranties under terms of their cash bailout. A hole in an exhaust manifold on a relatively new SUV is likely due to a manufacturing / assembly flaw. They can't shirk their obvious responsibility. Otherwise, who would want to buy their products and continue to keep them in business. They absolutely need happy customers.

Go to another GM dealer and see if you get proper service. Or chase the regional representative. I once talked to a regional factory representative and wrote a letter to successfully get $1200 in repairs covered for multiple faulty diagnosis / repairs by a Saturn dealership. The letter was the key - explain the situation clearly and objectively - it works much better than yelling at the service manager.

jb weld the manifold

If all else fails !

Donzi

I remember a long time ago I had a Chev Corvair and it broke several pushrods. I had the service manager show me ones in the parts department and saw that mine (4) had holes drilled deeper that his stock thereby weakening the shaft. A few days later the traveling GM rep came by on his rehular rounds. I showed him the rods, he said he could not make that deteremination he would have to send them to Atlanta for evaluation. I got a letter back saying they found nothing wrong. My wife worked for a lawyer so we drafted a letter basically saying that they had my property and I wanted it returned so I could whow my friends the quality of GM products. Got a check in the return mail. Why do we have to go to these lengths to resolve an obvious problem??/

Okay; you don't seem to be making any headway with your friend on getting responsible party(ies)'s feet held to the fire to fix this, so here's the DIY method.

You say sizeable hole, so open it to round and tap if required to insert a pipe plug. Make sure it goes in far enough to reach the inside of the pipe. Gas weld in place using an oxy-acetylene torch for the mega heat input for stress relief and fill with RG-45 (calibrated coat hanger) for maximum ductility of the weldment. DO NOT USE COAT HANGERS! I swear that they're made of zinc now- like welding with a sparkler.

This has worked for me in the past, and since it will protrude outside the manifold, it will act as a heatsink.

BWIRE has given you a possible recourse to go through. If you were to take the car to a state that does have emission inspections, the car would surely fail. This would make it illegal to bring the car to that state. If you were to contact the GM Customer Assistance Office , it might be willing to help.The number that I show is 1-800222-1020. The address is

Chevrolet Motor Division

Customer Assistance Center

P.O. Box 7047

Troy, Mi. 48007-7047

You might try contacting the Florida Highway Patrol. Or the Florida dept of Transportation. There are laws on the Florida Books that specify certain safety equipment for vehicles. Sealed Exhaust systems are bound to be on them. Any law enforcement agency has assess to the state statutes.

I would also suggest getting a price quote for the repair from a GM dealer.

Have you checked the OBD II system for stored trouble codes? There might be problems that are covered, that would cause the overheated exhaust manifold. In that case the warrenty would cover related parts.

Carbom monoxide is colorless, odorless and POISONIOUS. This is not something for your friend to take lightly.Let me know if I can help in any way. Good luck.

I think the fundamental question is to ask why is the GM dealer is not observing the 8 year /100,000 mile warranty period? Show them the EPA list of components that was shown in another response.

The simple answer is that they are the government now and they don't give a flip whether they follow their own rules or not. After all, it was against contract law to award over 60% of the company to unsecured debtors instead of giving an ownership stake to the secured debtors. Or telling the CEO that he is fired when the government had no ownership stake in the company to begin with. THE LAWS DON'T APPLY TO THEM ANYMORE.

Rorschach:

Unfortunately you're probably right--However, minutes ago I found out he don't have to worry about it anymore. Couldn't wait for GM rep to return call so he removed the manifold (breaking off 3 bolts in the alum head)--So now it's his problem--Pull the engine or pull the head to drill out the broken bolts ! Ain't that some crap, after all the work we went through to help resolve his problem.

Thanks to all of you who offered help--appreciate it !

Donzi

Nope, all is not lost. Tell him to keep all his reciepts for parts and when you finally get them to admit it is their screw-up, they must reimburse him.

Man that sucks.

I guess he can now install a set of glass headers and straight pipes since they don't have inspections in FL.

Because the top execs at GM are busy doing other things.

GM CEO -- B. Obama - Busy Screwing with Health Care, developing a plan for a centrally planned economy, and developing plans for totalitarian rule. Reading "fishy" email sent from party loyalists, and sending out his SS agents to silence the resistance.

GM CIO -- J. Biden - Told to keep mouth shut and come up with more companies to take over. Making get out of GITMO free cards and green cards in WH basement.

GM CAO -- H. Clinton - Out of country making friends with axis governments while getting ideas on how they successfully control their people through lies, deceit, and coercion.

GM CFO/CMO -- N. Pelosi - On vacation. Ruining running a country is hard work. Knitting new State flag.

The rest of congress GM leadership is to busy arguing over the color palettes and leather swatches for their new "Air Force" jets.

Besides. Why would they help you "fix" it when they are offering $4300.00 in taxpayer money (that everyone else will make up for), to go a further $25,000.00 into debt for a new FE green vehicle.
$3,000,000,000(tax payer money) / $4300(per clunker) = 697,675(suckers) * $25,000(avg green car price) = $17,441,875,000+10% (avg interest) = $19,186,062,500(new consumer debt in 3 months) Does not include initial tax title license, or increased yearly taxes all paid to government, not to mention other associated costs and fees not offset by fuel savings. (Only about .00025% in fuel saving per vehicle year, once ALL US vehicles are factored in. Not including the yearly loss of efficiency all vehicles experience.)
Then lets say that even just "50%"(its MUCH higher) of the $19,186,062,500 or $9,593,031,250 of the debt is paid to foreign auto makers. Add in the 50% or $1,500,000,000 from the initial tax payer money, and you sending at very the least, $11,093,031,250 out of the pockets of Americans to foreign countries.
This? is supposed to stimulate the US economy?
Regardless of your political views, you have too admit, your getting screwed.

That is why, GM won't fix it, it being run by the US Government.

I truly hope your friend gets his Chevy fixed so he can say, "he's shoving it to the man".

you should get math right befor post guest

$4300(per clunker) = 697,675(suckers)
Your wrong on the amount given. It is $4500 not $4300 so the # of people is a little high.
Could it be? NO! IT COULDNT BE! NOT 666,666.666 ψ _{the work of satan} ψ

Then lets say that even just "50%"(its MUCH higher)
Quite a bit highr. Some are saying nearly 78% not 50% is to foreigner auto maker

Lets take a nealy 78% or 77.7777778% sending $2,333,333,334 not out of US.
leaving US with $666,666,666 left.

WAIT! WHAT? $666,666,666 ψ _{More work of satan} ψ

(new consumer debt in 3 months)
3 is close, but it is spent over 60-72 months and affects other consumer spending over that time. no x-mas kids, Daddy go screwed.

Something else. Even the gov is saying that they are only paid out 2% of all the claims sent in. This is due to rejecting 4 ou of 5 claims. i dont know who gets the raw deal here. Not sure how it will work. Either the dealer is out $4500 for each car sold under deal. Papers signed custmer took possesion at lower price. or the car buyer find out that they owe the $4500 more after deal thu increasing the monthly payments and interest. eiter way It just leaves moe money in the pot to rape more Americans with.
with no over site of number of deals made by dealers. the number of deals made will exceed the 666,666 number of max deals. They throw more money at the problem or does customers and dealers for deal # 666,667 and up get the shaft. with paperwork taking 3-4 weeks min. to process if not rejected. who will know when to stop?

and they want to increase number of gov workrs handling claims from 225 to 1000. because it takes to long to hand;e paperwork. or about 6.6 claims per processor.
do these 1000 workers get paid out of 3 Billion or are they paid with other tax money. How much do Gov worker makes per hour? lets say $15/hr. X 8 Hr = $150/day X 1000 = $150,000/day X 5 = $750,000/week not including benifits.
Maybe 1 million a week?

how much does this thing cost us i taxes?

dont believe? read here

below copied from article

In the letter, [Rep. Joe Sestak, D-Pa] said only 2 percent of claims have been paid and that four of every five applications have been "rejected for minor oversight."

But while Congress just expanded the $1 billion program by $2 billion, the Department of Transportation says a staff of just 225 people is reviewing those claims.
Sestak wrote that he thinks 1,000 processors should be assigned to handle the claims.

One question? How long do you have to drive a non clunker to save $4500 in gas, lets say at the $2.69/gal it is here. thats about 1673 gal worth of gas.
was your $3,000,000,000+ worth it America?

Gentlemen (and Ladies as appropriate), I spoke with a friend of mine who is the president of the local Better Business Bureau here in Houston to get his read on this issue and here are his (slightly edited) responses.

Me: If GM refuses to fix a failed exhaust manifold under warranty, can you sue them? or do they now have sovereign immunity?

Dan Parsons: Whether you can successfully sue them is a more difficult question than I can answer. A lot probably depends on the impact of bankruptcy on preexisting warranties. I don't know how that played out.

As for sovereign immunity, that won't (or should not) fly. The government owns shares in what is technically a private company. Sovereign immunity should not extend through a shareholder to the company itself.

We think we have TWO options…for this guy…

1 – BBB Autoline…if the car is in manufacturer's warranty and generally no more than 50% through that warranty…it would qualify for this program…note, this is a pure manufacturer's program….and WAS kept in the GM bankruptcy petition…

2 – suing….and that we just do not know,…but we should and will find out…typically, as I am sure you know….when a business is in Chapter 11, one trying to sue may not…..usually, and becomes a creditor, secured or unsecured depending on how a court sees their status….with GM's issues, I would predict it would be Unsecured…..the courts are trying to "save" GM so the vendors and contract holders (even though you could claim a car buyer, with an active warranty, HAS a contract)…..have first nibble…

Changing the exhaust manifold on a Chevy trailblazer 4.2 I6 can be done without removing the engine or exhaust pipes. You need a 13 mm socket with a 2" extension for the 11 manifold bolts. 10 mm for the 4 heat shield bolts and nuts that hold the transmit ion and engine oil dip stick brackets. And a 15 mm ½ drive socket with a 2 foot extension for the pipe to manifold nuts

.

Remove the air box by losing a hose clamp and the 3 screws holding the box in with a long slotted screw driver. Disconnect the IAT censer by squeezing the connector.

Remove the nut's that holds the oil dip stick brackets and A/C line bracket that mounts to the same stud as the oil dip stick bracket. Remove the other bolt that holds a A/C line bracket at the front of the engine so you can move the line.

You may want to brake the oxygen censer lose at this time or you can remove the heat shield with the O2 censer in place by feeding the wire threw the hole in the shield. The O2 censer is a 22mm or a 7/8 will work and AutoZone will lone the tool to remove it. You can remove the nuts on the 3 exhaust pipe to manifold studs with a 15 mm deep sockets anytime before all the manifold bolts are loosened.

Removing the heat shield it's a tight fit, but it comes out. Spray the 11 bolt and three studs that connect the manifold to engine and exhaust pipe with penetrating oil. You may want to weight for the penetrate to work. If your in a hurry and the engine is cool you can brake the bolts loose, but mechanics brake them off sometimes and you have to pull the engine or the head to drill them out. Once the bolt is broken loose try some more oil. The bolts do have lock tight on them and come out hard all the way. The bolts shaft will twist with 350 in lb of force, and brake after being twisted 1/3 of a turn so once broken loose if the torque seams high and you have a torque wrench that works turning left you may want to check to see if your at 300 in lb or less. If more try more oil and turning the bolt back in and out to work it loose.

The bolt are 8mm x 33mm with 1.25 pitch class 10.9 and are equivalent to a grade 8 bolt. You may want to remove the top radiator hose inlet to get at the front bolt, but it isn't mandatory. If you don't bother; be vary careful to keep the sockets on straight and do not put side lode on the bolt while struggling to turn it out if, you bend it might brake. Try to avoid using a deep socket, it makes it easer to put a bending force on the bolt.

Once all the bolts are removed you can remove the manifold out the top, but you may need to wedge the rest of the exhaust system back a few inches in order to turn the manifold up and out. Clean the exhaust ports on the engine and run a new bolt or tap in and out of the holes. Cutting a grove the long way through the threads of a bolt can help it work like a tap.

Bolts from the hardware store come in 30mm not the 33mm the factory bolts are, but the factory bolts aren't threaded all the way to the tip so the 30 mm should be close enough. If I was to do the job again I might try to find studs and nuts. When I reinstalled new bolts I did not use lock tight I don't think it's necessary, I used antisez on all nuts and bolts. Torque the manifold bolts 220 in lb with a new gasket working from the center out to the ends 3 times,

Unnecessary notes:

Penetrating oil will work it's way through tight fits by capillary action. (2) I torque the bolts a little high to 220 because there was still some old lock tight in the hole. (3) I have never heard of using anything but antiseze used for manifold bolts. I have a manual for a 1991 dodge 2.2 that was well known for vibration. It says use antiseze on the exhaust and turbo and use lock tight on flex plate bolts ware the parts move.(4) I removed the right front tire to get at a manifold stud. (5) when I installed the new manifold I had the three studs removed so they would not catch on the pipe.( 6) The new manifold is garneted not to crack, but came unpainted. I painted with high temp paint and baked it with a heat gun than with the home oven. If you heat the paint by running the engine to full temp in one shot it can burn off. (7)Don't get confused about bolt grade metric 8.8=grade 5 SAE/ 9.8 is 7.5% stronger/ metric10.9 is 20% stronger than 8.8= grade 8 SAE. It may be hard to find a 10.9 hex bolt and you may have to go to a cap bolt and use a fender washer. (8)I never got the O2 cancer out even with a pipe wrench and about 250 foot pounds of force.

Tell him to check his warranty in-service date at any dealership i work at one if i had the vin it might still be under the 8 year 80,000 mile for federal emmissions warranty

I hope this helps