Temperature Measurement for Ice in Indoor Skating Rink

Laser thermometer - about £80GBP?

Thanks! Much appreciated ...

DZ

RS Components (usual disclaimer).

Problem with laser thermometers is that they aren't that actuate and the have issues with water and ice. We used to use them a lot in the construction field with different applications. Any type of vapor, water or even ice would cause all sorts of problems.

The placement of the sensor in the floor would give you the temperature but it would be local to the area. That also with an infrared imager that could scan the whole rink would be better. An infrared image would warn you of problems as they would show hot spot in the ice.

I question the permanent embedding of a sensor. Failure of sensor could be costly to repair. Any type of temperature sensor then could be used anywhere on the ice and used as base line for the infrared image.

Thanks!

'Local-only' measurement is precisely the problem that my colleagues have had. I was surprised to learn, for example, that typically only ONE sensor is used for an entire rink. My colleagues are aware that this is inadequate (for example, they've had situations where hot air flow at one corner of a rink softened ice there but not overall), but they haven't found and technologies that could give an overall scan.

I thought about infra-red camera imaging for an entire rink, which would be similar to infra-red imaging the inside of a vibrating-grate solid-fuel boiler. One model I had in mind can scan and average the temperature of six or eight zones and transmit those values to a SCADA system. Such a camera would have to be mounted above-ground, and the catch with doing that would be having to eliminate 'circulating hot spots' (i.e. skaters) from the readings.

OK, I'm not alone in thinking this so I'll contact the company I was thinking about (Mikron Infrared .. http://www.mikroninfrared.com) and see if they can do anything for this.

I'll look into laser temperature sensors while I'm at it, too.

Thanks, gentlemen!

DZ

http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/poor-mans-thermographic-camera/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1fV20gTEr0

http://www.infraredsys.com/RaytekProductsPage.html

REG FA R R E L L ENGINEERING LIMITED seem to have some system for Ice skating rinks. Please see p.39 XERGENS MICROSCANNERS below.

http://www.rfe.ie/2006%20Price%20List/RegFarrell_Sec9.pdf

Bioramani

Hello ozzb,

What I had in mind was placing a sensor every square metre, with the wire and sensor attached to a conduit with a flexible rubber, or similar. If that fails a computer would graphically show where the failure was. Removing a few inch/cm of ice, would allow the renewal of the sensor. ................

Each square or radius would be monitored for temperature, and the 'average' of either a straight line or given square size of multiple sensors, including the entire Rink Temp' would be easy.

There is a raised edge to each Rink I have been to and this 'contains' a 3"/7.5 cm deep cushion of cold/freezing air. The gates onto the Rink will tend to allow warmer air on and, so be liable to melting so these perhaps could be kept colder? Just a thought.

Take care.

Well as use northerners do it it works like this. Ice melts at 32 F. if its not melting its cold enough.

If your cooling system is circulating properly the overall temperature shouldn't vary by more than a degree or two any way and the point your coolant returns from would give that zones actual temurature within reason. Keep the ice several degrees below freezing and you should be fine.

Lolll ... I'm pretty much north here too in Montreal, Canada (my latitude splits SD evenly in north-south), but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you're a "More Norther American" in northern SD.

The research fellows here say that minus 4 C is ideal, but the problem lies in heat sources inside the arenas: air heaters for grandstands, infrared emissivity of the roof, etc. Depending on how air flows, arenas have been known to have problems like hot spots on the ice (so mushy ice) while spectators are freezing nearby.

Until 2-3 days ago, I had no idea that all this was going on. But I've got a good, experienced colleague and he'll keep me straight on things. That being said, the ice temperature measurement thing is an issue.

Thanks!

DZ

Actually your giving me about 200 miles of southern credit!

I am only about 90 miles south of Canada. We see -40 degrees F here every winter. And typically we can go for over 50 days strait without ever rising above the freezing point every winter and on regular occasions never break 0 F for a week or two strait!

Not that thats something to brag about.

Hello DreadZontar,

As you will see from the piece below, just about all ice rinks have automatic ice temperature control. In Rinks where professional skating takes place, with the heat from lighting for TV etc., a second computer or two and a final 'manual' control is used. BTW 28 °C is the optimum temperature for skating competitions.

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Computer Control Systems

Most modern mechanical systems built today are computer controlled. A high end refrigeration system with its variable component selection requirements naturally lends itself to the flexibility and infinite configuration available through a sophisticated computer control system. Tremendous temperature control, energy efficiency and reliability can be obtained with modern computer systems. The computer system can wring out every last bit of energy efficiency from a refrigeration system. In comparison to the same refrigeration system without a computer control system we experience energy savings greater than 20%.

Computer Control Systems Offer Many Advantages

Energy Efficiency

Reduced Maintenance costs and extended equipment life

Operator convenience

Equipment redundancies

Ice Quality

Reduced downtime

Reduced Liability

Through proper programming the computer can determine which size of fan motor, brine pump, and compressor will be the most efficient for the present weather conditions and facility usage. Various programs and pre-programmed schedules can be run for hockey, figure skating, and public skating in which the ice temperature will automatically adjust. The lights above the ice can also be controlled to match the current on ice program.

With this style of computer control system you are able to calculate the deviation from the ice temperature set point and select just enough compressor capacity to recover without bringing on excess compressor capacity, keeping your electrical demand charges to a minimum.

Energy consumption can be further reduced with off hour programming which will allow the ice temperatures to rise during night time hours or inversely pre-chilling the ice prior to peak demand hours.

In a typical recreation facility it can sometimes take years to master your ice due to each facility has its own unique operating characteristics. With the aid of computer trend logging you will be able to compile a tremendous amount of useful operating data which will enable you to anticipate and program the best operating strategy for short range weather conditions and programming changes.

From a maintenance standpoint, trend logging is invaluable. As an example, if you are presently carrying out manual log book entries and your discharge pressure is slowly increasing by 1 PSI per month, it would be very difficult to detect it, especially with varying weather conditions. However with computer trend logging it becomes blatantly evident when you graph it over one year. This trend would be an early indication that it is time to service your condenser and you would save yourself thousands of dollars in operating costs. Trend logging and graphing also makes trouble shooting randomly occurring problems very easy.

*Infra-Ice™ temperature control can be used to precisely monitor the ice surface temperature in order to catch any heat loads at their source. This style of sensor will provide you with the fastest response to changing surface conditions which can be very important, especially in professional facilities where 15,000 people walk through the door and TV level lighting is turned on.

With computer control you will have the ability to monitor and control the system remotely from any PC. The system can also be programmed to dialing out to a pager, cell phone or any landline in the event of a failure, reducing down time.

Accent Refrigeration Systems were pioneers in many modern ice rink advancements including many computer control strategies that are presently used around the world. Our Rink-Pro XP-4000 computer control system has had the longest history and is the most reliable in the industry. To find out more contact our head office.

*Infra-Ice™ is a product designed by Accent Refrigeration Systems.

The following is a list of what we find are the most common reasons for field complaints from owners of computer control systems.

Energy Efficiency

By precisely integrating all of the high efficient components in the refrigeration system, the computer maximizes the benefits of all these component in a manner that could never be paralleled by old fashioned mechanical controls. Programs can be run to reduce energy consumption during periods of peak electrical costs.

The temperatures can be set higher or lower to take advantage of periods when electrical costs are lowest or highest.

Reduced Maintenance costs and extended equipment life

Through operating efficiency the accumulated run time will be reduced on all pumps and motors.

Trend logging enables the operators to detect slowly developing problems such as fouled tubes on condensers or chillers.

Minor adjustments and problem solving can be done via the modem, reducing the need for outside help.

Operator convenience

The operating conditions can be monitored from home or anywhere in the world via a modem and PC.

Ice temperatures can be pre-programmed to accommodate all user groups.

Logs will be kept on all operating conditions and run times recorded on all motors to prompt the operators to carry out preventative maintenance.

Equipment redundancies

The computer has complete control over the entire system. In the unlikely event of a computer failure a second set of traditional mechanical controls will automatically takeover the safe operation of the system.

Ice Quality

The computer provides the highest level of ice control available. Sensors can be installed in the brine supply, brine return, the cement slab, or in the ice itself. To anticipate rapidly changing loads that are common in professional facilities an infrared sensor can be mounted to detect any change in the ice surface itself. Temperature control within plus or minus ½ a degree are easily achievable though computer control

Reduced downtime

The computer has the added advantage of being able to dial out to any telephone number in the event of an unscheduled shutdown or unusual operating condition

Reduced Liability

Keeping accurate records of all your operating conditions can be advantageous when it comes to proving the status of your ice in court.

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As you can see with computer control the ice need not be at the optimum temperature at times when it is not used, like night time for instance. It would be bad management if anyone of these Rinks were constantly (24/7) kept the ice at too cold a temperature or too cold when it does not matter at night? So the question you quote seems a little misguided and any ice Rink could not afford to freeze at unnecessary temperatures. This would obviously cost substantially more in power! So any question made, in the assumption that there is no proper control on the ice, is unnecessary for sure.

I hope you find this pasted piece interesting, I did.

Take care.

Where did the picture go?

Hello elnav,

How you doing?

If there should have been a pic in with the ice Rink details????????? I cannot copy pictures at the moment, which is why where possible and if I remember, I enclose the site/s address/s. Sorry. If you want to discuss this more please PM me my friend, OK?

Take care.

I sent this as a PM, but since there are a number of Mac users on CR4 (obviously of varying experience levels), I decided to go public...

On a Mac, if you can see the picture on the screen, hold down Shift and Command, then press 4. The cursor will change to a crosshair. If you are using OS 10.5.x, it will also include the pixel counts from the upper left corner. Move the cursor to the upper-left corner of the region you want to copy. Press and hold the mouse button while you move to the lower-right corner of the region, then release the button. This will create a PNG file on your desktop called 'Picture 1' (or 'Picture 4' if P1,2, and 3 already exist).

You HAVE switched to Firefox, haven't you? The following does NOT work in Safari. Click on the green camera in the toolbar; click 'Browse', then navigate to the desktop and select the file, and click 'Submit'. I just did that for the CR4 logo:

If you have a PNG or JPEG already stored anywhere, you just do the same thing, starting with 'Click on the green camera...

There is a list of many keyboard shortcuts under System Preferences/Keyboard & Mouse/Keyboard.

We have a thermocouple in the return line header of our brine line indicating what the mean temp is of the ice.

We use temperature data loggers at some of our Asphalt plants which have multiple senses. I would but out three our four of this that way you could log any period of time for each sensor at multiple locations. If interested I can supply you a contact for the equipment. I puts it all on a spreadsheet and graph format with the software package for around $200 per logger.

Hi, Bakerjohn.

Sure, send me the equipment specs.

Cheers!
DZ

The equipment is by T and D Corp.

The unit we use is a TR-71U

My contact is:

Pete Martin Sales Manager Computer Aided Solutions 8588 Mayfield Rd Chesterland, OH 44026 800-9-Logger (800-956-4437) pmartin@dataloggerinc.com www.dataloggerinc.com
If you have any addition questions concerning use you can e-mail me: jbaker@highwaymaterials.com

There are small. hand-held IR temperature detectors available, inexpensive, but I don't know if they are accurate below 32 F/0 C.