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Anonymous Poster

Knocking sound after turning on taps

08/22/2009 5:25 AM

Ok here is the scenario.

New townhouse. Anytime we use the shower or bathroom taps a knocking sound starts after about 40 seconds downstairs in the wall where the water and sewage pipes travel.

Doesn't happen when the upstairs toilet flushes as we believe it is a different sewage drain pipe.

So what we get down stairs is a knocking sounds that starts 1 min after using water, and continues for up to 20 mins after the tap is closed.

I believe it might be water travelling down the gray water sewage pipe (i.e. not the toilet pipe). Once the water keeps on going, the sound sorta disappears then returns again as we stop the water. Any ideas?

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Anonymous Poster
#1

Re: Knocking sound after turning on taps

08/22/2009 8:06 AM

it has nothing to do with the drains it is trapped air in your water pipes. When a house is piped it should have a t fitting withw/the a t facing up and another piece of pipe connected w/ a cap facing up an air chamber that allows the air to be released before it gets to the tap.Either some doit your selfer re plumbed w/out putting them in or they put to small of one in they should be about 8"s tall and u can buy at any hardware store pre maid . look under your sinks if there isnt a t w/ a pipe pointing up thats capped then thats your problem or depending on how old your place is calcium may have built up enough to close the chamber, sometimes they are in the wall like your tub shower will most likely be behind the wall consult your local plumber.

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#2

Re: Knocking sound after turning on taps

08/22/2009 8:37 AM
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#3

Re: Knocking sound after turning on taps

08/22/2009 10:10 PM

It could just be that the sewer pipes are tightly anchored to the frame of the house and what you are hearing is the movement of the pipe, from thermal expansion and contraction, when binds as its moving through what ever brackets are holding it to the frame.

Just a guess!

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#4

Re: Knocking sound after turning on taps

08/22/2009 11:02 PM

I had exactly this problem. It was the hot water pipe expanding and contracting inside its little copper brackets. I actually tried lubricating the ones that I could easily get at with a little squirt of white lithium. Worked well for a long time, needed to be redone every couple of years or so. Eliminated about half the noise. Maybe the drain is doing the same thing...though it seems unlikely. Drains are usually plastic, which don't expand as much as copper.

I got annoyed with it one day and spent some time tracking the remaining noise down with a stethescope. This was not a good idea. Just learned to live with it for awhile.

During a bathroom reno a few years later, when the drywall came off, I pried out the little brackets which held the hot water pipes, and slid some strips made from a cut down plastic windshield washer bottle under them. Then I screwed the little copper brackets down but not too tight. That worked and has worked now for many years. Imagine my surprise to discover that you can get plastic brackets for 3/4 or 1/2 inch pipes which don't have this problem at all.

I also took that opportunity to install foam plastic blankets on both the hot and cold water pipes. The foam insulation is cheap, it keeps the heat in the hot pipes, and more importantly, eliminates condensation on the cold pipes. I figure there is no good that can come of dew forming on my cold water pipes. This apparently is not a problem with the new plastic pipes which are replacing copper in new construction. I dunno. Personally, I don't trust that stuff. But a discussion of plastic versus copper is off topic, so I will leave it at that.

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#7
In reply to #4

Re: Knocking sound after turning on taps

08/23/2009 10:11 AM

Good info.

I will apply it when I build my next home, but will stay with copper pipes.

They have already discontinued the original PEC pipe after about 10 years of use. It was guarantied for 25 years or so. Lets wait for 25 years to see if this generation is better.

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#11
In reply to #7

Re: Knocking sound after turning on taps

08/24/2009 1:13 PM

The pex piping that is use now in North America has been used in Europe for over 25 years. It is a crosslinked polyethylene material. There is also one for Hydronic heating. This has an oxygen barrier in it. The material that I believe that you are thinking about it the failed poly butyl tubing. I believe that there is still a class action law suit in both America and Canada over that stuff. That said I still prefer to use copper as it makes for a neater installation.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Knocking sound after turning on taps

08/24/2009 1:29 PM

I believe you are correct. PEX seems to be going strong here in the US and its popularity is growing. There was/is a problem with one brand of poorly designed PEX connectors, but the PEX tubing itself has been reliable. I prefer to use copper for supply lines whenever possible.

PB was the failed product that had major lawsuits pending. Unfortunately for those still living with it, I'm pretty sure the time to get in on that class action has expired.

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#5

Re: Knocking sound after turning on taps

08/23/2009 7:34 AM

Mostly happened in the multi-story or hi-rise bldg. Cheap materials installed were most likely to be blamed. One of the causes sometimes was overlooked by the designer and failed to calculate the right size of pipes with ample air ventilations/chamber...called air hammer arrester. Air may present in the pipes produced by the pump motor/s pressure and in some cases cause the vacuum air(in addition to some blockage particles, etc. in the pipe).

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Knocking sound after turning on taps

08/23/2009 8:13 AM

I don't suspect the air hammer effect since generally, it only occurs at the instant you turn off the taps, rather than over and over for ten minutes like the client says happens.

Though it IS conceivable that the large mass of moving water in the pipes can shift all or part of the plumbing system, and it might take a quarter of an hour for it to all shift back into place. Just never happened in MY experience.

Nice thing about this forum is that you get the benefit of a lot of people's experience.

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#8

Re: Knocking sound after turning on taps

08/23/2009 11:53 AM

"So what we get down stairs is a knocking sounds that starts 1 min after using water, and continues for up to 20 mins after the tap is closed."

Based on your timing statement above, it cannot be water hammer, air in the pipes, or loose pipes.

It can only be thermal expansion/contraction of the pipes (mostly lengthwise). The noise is from the pipes trying to slide through support brackets or joist holes that are too tight! Commercially made plastic supports or homemade plastic sleeves through wood or metal supports will usually solve the problem.

Once the pipes are buried behind drywall, the cure can be worse than the problem. Good Luck!

(GA Yusef1)

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#9

Re: Knocking sound after turning on taps

08/24/2009 6:27 AM

Check the float valve in the roof tank.

  • It may be that the washer is perished. If so, then replace it.
  • It may be that the arm on the valve is oscillating as the tank refills after the water has been drawn off, in which case it needs more mass.

Check that the pipes are correctly supported. Are they held in suitable clips, and are the clips correctly sized? Are there enough of them?

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#10

Re: Knocking sound after turning on taps

08/24/2009 1:08 PM

As other posters have stated, it is not water hammer or air in the lines. If it were air in the lines, you would observe 'spitting and sputtering' at the faucet from air releasing along with the water. It is either the supply line or the drain, or both, expanding as it is heated. If you have PEX supplies, I doubt seriously if they are making any noise as they are flexible enough to bow rather than extend as a rigid copper line will do and it is likely that any new or recently-built building is equipped with PEX rather than copper on account of the significant cost differential.

In my home, the water is supplied by copper lines run under the slab-on-grade and penetrating the floor to the fixtures. In my kitchen, the drain runs horizontally along the wall before dropping into the main. Every time I run hot water or during the wash and rinse cycles of the dishwasher, I can hear the drain making noise as it expands and contracts. PVC lines definitely respond to changes in temperature, maybe not as much as copper, but to an extent that they move within their constraints.

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