Is This Wall Load Bearing?

Tear out a small section of drywall above the door opening and inspect whether or not the "Header" is solid, if it is than the wall is "probably" load bearing

If There is a engineered truss above the wall,you may not have to be concerned,as most trusses are designed to conform over the entire span.

But,you aren't giving us enough data to make a quality determination

Hi Del,

well said my friend.

GA to you Sir.................... Though I see you have a plethora already on this thread!

Take care.

"Though I see you have a plethora already on this thread"

_{Did you see how he got them?}

You'da thought it was the Academy Awards, if you'd been there.

Nuf sour grapes.

Cheers!

Hi lynlynch,

No no, I like sour grapes! And I cannot run in the same 'echelons' as Del so would not have seen him at the 'awards'!

Take care lynlynch..........

bb

OK, here's another angle on that wall. Not planning to cut any joists, just the studs in that narrow wall section. There are no walls within the kitchen/dining area, other than the perimeter walls. The cabinets do not go to the ceiling in the center of the room, I hope that's clearer with this pic. I think I will try to get a picture of the attic area.

Tom

Tom,

I see you have a 'double wide', so that wall may have been more important during shipping than it is now. Still a tough call from here. I'm with Kay on removing drywall, but all of it, before you cut through your electricals, etc.

And since the cabinets are not attached to the ceiling, can the tall cabinetry support them? A photo taken from the sliding door might help there.

Del, you baad kitty! What if she says "Go ahead, do what you want"? That would be interrupting the work schedule.

I can just hear the sound of a tool belt hitting the floor.

Tippy,

Just to clarify, this is not a "manufactured" home. It's a site-built. I don't want to get defensive, but I'm not a big fan of "mobile" or "manufactured" homes. There's a reason they are cheaper than site built. As far as the cabinets down the middle, they won't be there. The point of removing the wall is to open things up, and go with an "L" or "U" shaped kitchen, getting away from the narrow "galley" style. One more point; there's no supporting wall in the basement below that short section of wall that I want to take out, that reinforces to me that it's not load-bearing.

Here's a shot from the other side, taken from the area of the sliding door.

Tom

I want to thank everyone for their input so far, if you read this thread and have an opinion, keep them coming. In the basement below this wall, there is no support structure or wall. The wall in question is parallel with the joists/trusses above, and floor joists below. I went over to the house during my lunch hour, and got up in the attic again. After pulling away some insulation, it looks like the truss at the transition of the vaulted to flat ceilings is not sitting on the wall I want to take out, there is a gap of about an inch between the bottom of the truss, and the top rail of the wall. I need to pull back some more insulation to be sure that what I'm looking at is indeed the top of that wall. A co-worker suggested that I might want to install a "beam" across the new, wider opening, just to be on the safe side. This could be boxed in with our choice of sheetrock, or real wood for a rustic look. I may opt for that route just to be safe. Thanks again for the ideas, and keep them coming.

On a related note, anyone want to design a new kitchen for the wife and I :)

Tom

With this info the wall/partition is clearly non-bearing and can be removed.

I agree. If the upper truss does not clearly sits on the wall, and there's no structure below the wall supporting it, so, no, its not a structural member. In the first posts I though indeed that it would be required for supporting the cabinets for the kitchen, but as the cabinets go all the way down to the floor, so should also not be a problem to remove it before anything. My oppinion based on the photos only, of course. I'm a mechanical engineer, not architect or so, so I tend to observe things in a more aggressive maner.

Hi mjb1962853,

GA to you Sir.

Take care.

Tom,

"there's no supporting wall in the basement below that short section of wall that I want to take out, that reinforces to me that it's not load-bearing."

You're probably right! But please disassemble carefully. Keep a Post-Jack around in case. Looks like more like a case of poor planning than anything else. Although I did know Exy Johnson (Irving's wife) {Google} who could cook a meal for 28 people in a galley kitchen smaller than what you have.

Carl

It look like it's load bearing to the point of holding up those cabinets. At this angle, my thoughts are it just may be load bearing.

I'm not an expert, just my opinion.

Hi Tippy,

GA to you Sir for some sensible advice.

Take care

If you have the same cross beam in the basement and that cross beam is supported by a vertical, then this wall is a weight bearing.

This is thinking out loud, not an opinion.

That appears to be a truss above the wall, supporting structural purlins over the vaulted area. I agree that the truss is probably built to span the full width, especially with the added stiffness of the wallboard on it's side. The problem I see is that although the section of wall may not be "officially" load bearing, as load is added, roofing, ceiling etc. during construction,the truss will have deflected and placed some load into the non-load bearing section. Removing this redundant support would then cause the truss to deflect a little more and perhaps, crack so plaster joints.

This is qualitative only, I would expect only slight cracking at best.

That does not look like a load bearing wall to me. It is parallel to the roof trusses, so it would at best support one truss. I'd expect a load bearing wall to be an exterior wall, or one that is perpendicular to the trusses.

You may notice some sag in the ceiling, as these walls are typically put in pretty tightly, and the ceiling joists will sag to accomodat the lack of support. This will crack the ceiling in that area. the sag will be similar to that of the rest of the living room area. Once the house has settled into its new configuration, patch it.

The other reason I don't think it is load bearing is that the wall is not continued across the door way. Also, the living room area has a full span without walls.

If you are really concerned, adding some daughter boards to the roof trusses may strengthen them more.

Of course, there should be some small print about how this advice is based upon what a tired ex contractor can see in two pictures at the end of a day. I could be quite wrong in some subtle detail that will render the house into a pile of rubble. Also, I don't know your region, and any shear wall requirements, etc.

I think you are OK ripping the wall out of there, Take the sheetrock off the walls and see if they indeed carry a load. If you knock them out of there and the ceiling drops some you may need to shore up something. Most of the new construction (past 50 years) has been truss design that transfers load to exterior walls and does not need any interior support. Consult a local SE if you are worried about what might happen

What's the pillar by the door doing ?

Doesn't look like it extends behind that fridge unit, but does it have some structural purpose or is it just for running pipe/cable ? Even if it is load-bearing, it may not matter for the bit you want to chop. Just curious - I'm not familiar with house build in the States, but have seen some odd stuff in the Europe. Have you drilled any exporatory holes around the area you weant to cut - sorry if I missed it, but the material that wall is made of isn't clear to me. If it's anything more than dry-lining it was done that way for a reason. Solid costs more, so they wouldn't do so unless it has some good reason for being. Have some props on standby just in case it goes belly-up (even an 'expert' might give you the wrong advice) .

Guest,

The "pillar" you see in the picture is actually a hollow chase-way. The furnace (forced air heater), and the water-heater are vented through a 6" stove pipe that runs through that chase. Both of the those appliances run on natural gas, so they must be vented to the outside.

I want to thank everyone once again, even Del the Bad Kitty. A little light-hearted humor is always appreciated! (your groveling worked with me, I voted!)

I'll try to remember to come back and update this thread when the actual work commences. There is still a chance we may leave the wall as-is, or close in the door-sized opening on the right to make the wall continuous up to the dining area, at this point I'm going to leave it up to the "little lady". I'm just the hired hammer so to speak :)

Tom

Rule of thumb - If you think it might be a load bearing structure it probably is. You won't know until you open up the wall, read what everyone else is saying. Putting up a lentil in a house is no big thing, you just need to know what your doing.

Good luck.

But putting up a lintel may be more use...

A LENTIL ....
RAOFPMSL

Beams beans...whatever
Del

Hi tdesmit,

Usually a 'load bearing wall is brick or maybe concrete block. Not to be confused with the lighter block often used in 'non-load bearing' areas.

If this is a house look in the loft to see where the cold water tank is, if you have one. You do not want to remove a wall supporting that much weight.

If your bathroom is above your kitchen, it will need a load bearing wall for the weight of the bath.

Internal dividing wall are just wood and plaster-board, and sound hollow. Load bearing walls sound a much higher pitch and these will be similar to the outside walls of your house.

You did the correct thing is asking by the way!

Take care

Interior walls inside residential structures are used to support the ceiling. If you want to know if the particular wall you are about to remove is load bearing you have to know the following.

lumber type - usually pine or fir in the US
lumber quality - select structure, no 1 or no 2
Lumber size - 2x4, 2x6, 2x8, 2x10 or 2x12
Joist spacing - 12, 16, or 24 inches
Maximum dead load - weight of structure and fixed loads
Maximum live load - movable loads

If you have this information then you can calculate the maximum span you are allowed to have in your house. No span should exceed a span of 24 feet without consulting a structural engineer.

Hope this helps.

I would have you check a different location than you are looking in. If you will peel the drywall back a little just above the opening to the sliding glass area, and check the header in that opening, you may just find the information you need. If you see a single or even paired 2x4 in that section then your wall is load bearing. I say this because usually when you transition from a flat to a vaulted ceiling the support in the center of this transition will bear the weight of the transition point.

Now if however there is a solid header there or an engineered timber there then the wall can be removed only if it runs the full width of the wall from the opening in the left area fully past the kitchen door. If all is well there then the wall can be removed but you will definitely get about a 1/2" drop in the ceiling in that area even if the wall is determined not to be load bearing. You will also most likely get a slight raise in the floor in the same area as well. Probably about 1/4 of an inch.

Unless you had this house designed yourself you will probably find that one of your neighbors has a similar design but the wall is removed and the kitchen cabinets run along the back wall for an open design. Chances are that your kitchen is an alternate design on that same scheme and the specs are there for the open plan which would make the wall safe to remove. Conversely they may have taken the cheap road and given you a light load wall to save the cost of a 20' 4x8 header to span that area.

Hope this is not to confusing, its early and my full capacity to think is not fully caffeinated.

Hi tdesmit,

There seems to be an awful lot of 'guessing' by some people on this thread. This is why I felt I should write again, to say make sure first!, unless you want your bedroom falling through to your kitchen?

A really easy way to see if the wall is load bearing is to try knocking a chisel or screwdriver through it. If it is solid brick or cement block the chisel will only go in a few mm before it stops. If it is a hollow diving wall it will be just plasterboard and the chisel can be pushed through.

BUT. try is a few areas of the wall as some may have wood verticals which you may hit. If it sounds hollow it is NOT load bearing.

Take care.

Hi babybear,

Here in the USA it is very common to have a house built from lumber and dry wall, inside and out. My guess is that this house is of "stick" construction, at least the interior walls would be, load bearing, or not.

It looks like this wall can come down.

Cheers!

Hello lynlynch,

Thanks for your reply post.

I knew there was always the 'danger' of possibly trying to advise 'in general' when building methods vary around the world?

I have built houses (two floors, ground floor and upper 'bedroom' floor) and used solid brick for the kitchen and, drywall to split the other rooms and bedrooms after the initial build, as the upstairs was one big space. The idea of solid walls in the kitchen was to support any kitchen units and internally situated 'bolted on' wall mounted central heating boiler.

I also think there is perhaps too many 'emphatic' remarks the wall is NOT load bearing when there is not enough info, in the form of pics' to confirm this. I realise it would be possibly more difficult to put a steel in here, and realise it would screw up the 'ceiling' line which is level with the exit into the 'lounge' is it? But I would just try everything other than knocking the wall down, before going ahead.

If the wall runs in the same orientation as the ceiling beams, then it is probably not load bearing. If the wall is at right angles to the beams then it could be load bearing.

It may also help to know where the OP lives, I have not noticed if he/she has said so or not?

Thanks my friend.

Take care.

Hey bb,

He lives in Wichita Kansas. One of the windiest places west of Minnesota.

I have a niece there.

He also said he might put up a decorative wood or steel beam to support the entire(I think) span. That would look good and be functional.

I helped my Dad build a couple of houses in the '60's. We had real wood and used the little numbers to measure and cut.

Cheers.

Hi lynlynch,

Yeah, I realised AFTER I had said I did not know where he lives, that it may just be on his profile? Sorry.

I like the idea of the fancy steel thing.

I have a couple of friends whom also have their own 'personal' wood also, pretty cool eh? There is nothing like building a house or even 'extending' one to sort of get an idea how this and that works and why is this support there,.......... oh I see it carries that? Words can help, but getting your hands dirty and sweating over proper house or building plans, and finding out and realising why things on one floor have a direct 'echo' and are reflected in the floor/s above and below?. You get that 'bling' moment and suddenly it all fits and you know on most houses and or other buildings, the 'shape or outline of the internals and external walls, and roofs, is not usually a 'decorative' design, but comes more from the 'function', and all that functional design builds up as you go through the house to make sense of how and why it is this shape, you know? I am sure you do understand.

Take care my friend.............

Babybear,

Construction methods here in the US are a bit different that in some other areas of the world. Load-bearing and non-load-bearing walls would not necessarily be of a different construction, they would both be a wall made with dimensioned lumber for a frame (1 1/2"x3 1/2"x 8' sticks of wood), on 16" centers, covered over with a material we call "sheet rock", which is really gypsum board with a layer of paper on both sides. This is "typical" wall construction for the US, for both load bearing or non-load-bearing walls.

As far as the bedroom falling into the kitchen, no chance of that, this is a single-story home, meaning there's nothing overhead except a roof.

My wife is from the country of Lithuania, and I've seen the construction methods employed there. As we work on this new home together, I've heard her say more than once "I can't believe they make these "paper" houses!". I got to see a partially built residential home in Lithuania (my wife's friend and husband were having it built). I was truly amazed. To have a home like that built here in the U.S. would easily double, probably triple, the price of materials and labor. But, their home will be standing many years after ours is just a memory, and a pile of rubble in some local landfill. It's a shame, but that's how it is here for the mainstream construction.

Tom

Hello tdesmit,

I really appreciate your reply post, thanks.

I did get stuck into the 'European' type of construction when answering and others have reminded me most homes in the US are 'sticks', sorry. I should have thought more as most of my Family are in the US.

I am pleased your 'bedroom' cannot land in your kitchen!

I see there seems to be rather a lot of replies which are pretty emphatic the wall is not load bearing. Well, with the info you sent in originally, I do not think there was anywhere near enough detail to say for sure one way or the other. It is always better to take care as most people can only afford one home?

I will leave it there and opt' out for now because I just do not know enough about the 'US' way of building....................... No insult implied, but the one place I would have thought a 'heavy' strong house was necessary it would be the States, with all the 'heavy weather' you get and all?

With Moose 'chiming' in with some sensible advice rather than a guess, and the advice to use building props, or as he says, 'lollipops' both in the cellar and the first floor. Whenever I remodelled a house I always as automatically used a 'prop' making just enough room to fit a prop in both ends of the wall being removed, before removing, again just enough brick (in my case) to fit a steel in, fitted and wedged up to the ceiling and fully functioning support and also rendered in properly before the removal of the wall. ........................... People; anyone pretty much, seem to forget there can be at least part of the chimney weighing several tons plus several tens on tons of roof tiles, wood etc. You just cannot take things careful enough. You did things properly by asking for advice for sure.

Take care and good luck.

Hi,

To whom ever voted my post # 26 off topic, what is in it that is off topic pray say?

Or is this a 'vindictive' vote?

bb

The described having entered the attic space above the kitchen rendering your comment off topic

Hi to all,

So another off topic?................ Oh well I can't get it right all the time I guess.

Hi bb,

Sounds like "local knowledge", not OT.

Cheers,

LL

Hi lynlynch,

Thanks for the reply post my friend.

Well, I thought that as well the 'local knowledge' thing, or I would not have answered. But, heh, win some lose some?

Take care

The transition truss likely has the appearance of more bracing but this is for attachment of drywall; we had called it nailing but screws are used for fastening drywall now.

It does not appear to be a shear or load bearing wall. You may with proper consultation modify the truss to continue with an unrestricted cathedral overhead too.

With the different answers given, the jury is still out. You are best off checking with a licensed engineer.

Hi ccoop610

GA to you Sir, pretty detailed.

Take care

Hi Moosie,

I was just about to write saying the cellar should also be supported, when I read it further down your post!.............. One reason why the whole post should be read eh?

Take care, bb.

Best guess would be that the section of wall to the left of the door opening is most likely load bearing. Without knowing what is above the kitchen area it's hard to say.

It's unfortunate that you have received such a large volume of drivel in response to your simple question. Since there is no beam or column under it, the wall is clearly not a bearing wall, so take it out. The truss or girder truss above it is carrying the ceiling and roof load. The vaulted ceiling is likely framed with scissor trusses.

By the way, modular housing, as opposed to mobile home construction, is superior to site-built. Imagine trying to lift a site-built home with a crane rigged with a spreader assembly and two lifting straps. I can assure you that you would have a pile of twisted lumber as the result. HUD-code (mobile) homes are built on a steel frame to which axles are attached for transportation. Modular (IRC) homes are typically built on a wood-framed floor system, transported on a low-bed trailer, and set with a crane onto a prepared foundation. These structures have to be designed and built to withstand the transportation and setting without any other temporary support system.

And adding to the drivel...........

Hi djb,

NICE ONE! I sometimes wonder at the arrogance of the one or two (fortunately only a very few) Members and non members who can make a decision without a doubt, that to take the wall down is correct? I find it dangerous and irresponsible.

Take care my friend.

It was observance of the former posts an posits (this is a conversation) not arrogance which I ascribed to removal being thought safe and prudent but this may not have been obvious obviously

I just love it when someone chimes in with comments like that. Not much has to be said to prove a point.

Hi djb,

I know what you mean. Sometimes the cards have to be laid on the table? Perhaps?

I appreciate your reply post very much. I may have been wrong in talking of "arrogance", I do not know but I said what was in my heart.

Take care my friend.

I kinda like the call of arrogance. seemed fitting to me

Hi djb,

ermmmmmmmmmm,

No comment! At least directly on that, but I think we all need what could be described as a little arrogance, though I can't think what the correct phrase is, but if you do not have it people will walk all over you?

Take care.

Yeh and I got the foot prints on my back to prove it lol.

At any rate we speak our minds in here and that's what I like about this place. We all have good knowledge in our own fields and some have a lot of general knowledge in a lot of areas.

Being a Maintenance manager I have found that I require a lot of knowledge in many areas from construction to electronics and have had to work very hard to acquire the knowledge necessary to do my job more than adequately.

I look at the reply's that the OP got in this thread and there is a lot of good information in them. A great many people trying to give the best information they can with the information provided. Then you have someone jump in be like the guest (or a gutless member) above and makes a contrived statement like they did as if they are the end all, be all in the world of construction. That is one of the reasons I feel guest posting on topics is a waste of time. Other times I have seen guests reply with some insightful information that can be really eye opening and makes you wonder if they are guests or just a member who has neglected to sign in.

At any rate my reply in annoyance to their statement in what I would call extreme arrogance, seemed justified at the time and still does. I realize you have gotten a bit of flack do to your being unfamiliar with US construction techniques. In a previous reply I made in regard to the possibility that the wall was a light load wall got no response at all. Having constructed many homes in the past I felt that the possibility is there for the wall to be bearing some of the weight of the room header. But the lack of response leads me to believe that I have been given the shrug on this particular topic as well.

Experience is great teacher and my past experience tells me this is indeed what I called it and there will be some load issues with the removal of this wall. Not to mention the electrics that will have to be moved to complete the renovation. I am not recommending leaving it as any wall can be moved or removed if one utilizes the correct materials. So I give my best wishes to the OP and hope all goes well with his project and everything comes out ok.

As for you my friend I think you have a wealth of knowledge to pass on to people here and I hope you don't get discouraged by some of the feedback you have gotten here.

Hi djb,

Hope your back get better soon after all that stomping! The marks will soon disappear.

I think you have read my mind as most all of your post at 12:38 (I think) was all and everything I was thinking.

I too have 'UK' building in my blood, sort of second nature to see a building and know how it works and what hold which bit up. And was also building the houses I later was to maintain for about a 3 year period. There was 10 styles of houses so I had complete copies of the plans on which I had checked and followed the building, and these were useful as some had had extensions done to their property by the time I went to do the Maintenance. These were often just butted up to the original house with flashing to keep the water at bay. Others were more involved and were actually part of the building now. Any of those type of extension could have been the same as the OP's pics. But with this thread there was not enough info' initially, and I and a couple of others sent a post to that effect, and to his/her merit, the OP send some pics.

However, it was in no way obvious from what had been said or the pics, (and I admit I forgot to see where the OP lived) that this was as we say here a Bungalow, or single storey building. Those pic could have been of an extension to an older building which could have any number of storey's. Until it was mentioned it was also not obvious to me that this building may have a cellar............. Again I should have noticed and remembered where the OP was living, but I did not!

I totally agree where 'guests' have sent in advice, with no doubt whatever that the wall should be taken down, is rather silly and there is no way they could possibly know the 'state' of that wall.

On some of they extensions I have done there is no use of brick and in that respect the construction is similar to the US type, all be it that I was not building over a cellar, you know?

I suppose looking back that if it was a simple case of knocking down a 'dry-wall' construction, it would have been done already. I think this is a good reason why all homes should be sold complete with original and updated ground and building plans. I had them for my home and they are usually referred to in the UK on the sale of a home, so at that point, a copy should be made and go with the sale?

Some of the 'feed back' I got seemed not warranted to me, but, this is only one thread and I know I have helped others, so I do not worry.............. It only hurt for a couple of days.

Take care my friend, and many thanks for your posts to me, they bucked me up no end!!!!!

Hi Doogleass,

Just a few words here from me.

In answer to your sentence:

It's unfortunate that you have received such a large volume of drivel in response to your simple question.

As this thread has gotten longer the situation has very gradually become clearer, and it may well be the case the wall is not load bearing............... BUT...................

Unless you have XRAY vision (which I doubt) and actually live in the building, you cannot say for sure, that, which you state above.

Better to be safe than sorry in my book, and the OP did the correct thing in asking for advice. The fact the OP has about 50/50 replies saying both he should take the wall down, and that the OP should be more circumspect and check things out in detail proves that it is not that obvious.

Take care.

Guys,

Making changes to one's property is a real risky busines unless you are a qualified structural engineer, and understand the issues and risks involved.

Most of the various responses have been far too amateurish, we need to be advising the OP to call in professional help. We do that if someone has problems with their cars, their computers, with almost anything, unless we are competent in the appropriate field.

Do we all think that we can second guess a Structural problem with less than half the information that an SE would require.

I am not an SE and do call in proper experts when problems arise.

Sleepy

Sleepy,

I appreciate your concern for the well-being of myself, and my personal property. I posted here knowing the answers I would get might be varied and contradictory. I was looking for some input to reinforce the knowledge I already have. This is what I have gotten, and I'm happy with that. If I called in the "pros" each time I lacked a full understanding of a situation, I would be a lot poorer, and, more importantly, a lot less wise, than if I did as I'm doing now. I learn a lot by soliciting the experience and knowledge of others. I won't argue that there are times when you should call on a professional, especially when life/limb are in jeopardy, but that is not the case here (at least I hope not!). I will proceed with caution, and live with the results. I promise not to hold anyone, other than myself, accountable for those results.

Tom

tdesmit, you have an excellent philosophy on life ! Hope it goes well.

tdesmit

thanks for that.

I wish you all the very best, I guess that I have had structural problems despite pro advice and wanted you to avoid that - knowing how expensive some of those issues can be.

I look forwartd to hearing of the succesful outcome!

Sleepy

Do you have the architectural drawings of the house or can you get them from the builder or local city/county building inspectors office? The prints should be marked.

I will do a basic kitchen design for you for free. Wont have many details but follow NKBA guidelines and meet code. Contact me through website www.kitchensperse.com.

Paddler

What's the distance from the glass patio door wall in the first pic to the wall is directly behind the refrigerator in the kitchen? My guess is that the wall you would like out is running parallel to trusses or other structural supports in the attic and you are fine to remove it. I would suggest stripping the sheetrock off and making sure there are not any columns or headers hidden in that wall to be sure, but then I'd have a laborer and a sawzall make short work of it.

I think that distance is about 17 ft. The wall is parallel to the trusses. We've decided on a kitchen layout, and that wall is not in it, so....... I'll probably be pulling sheet-rock off this weekend to see what's underneath. From what I saw in the attic, I don't think I have anything to worry about. I do have some electrical I will have to deal with, though. I'll try to update what I find, maybe even a picture or two. Thanks again for all the input.

Tom

I know it's been some time since I first posted this, but I did want to follow up with the final verdict. Been so busy with the house renovation, I haven't taken the time to update this post! The wall in question has been out for quite some time now, and as originally thought, it was not a load bearing wall. Once the Sheetrock was off, it was obvious that was the case. The top framing member of the wall in question was a good inch or so underneath the ceiling/roof truss bottom member. They used some long nails to span that gap, and tie the wall to the trusses, as a means to hold the wall perpendicular, not to support the roof structure. If I get a chance, I'll post an "after" picture, showing what the kitchen looks like now. Thanks again to all the participants in the discussion.

Tom

Hi tdesmit,

No matter how long after your first post it is always nice to hear and know that the problem you first saw has been remedied! Some posters never even return and we are left wondering!

Take care and good luck